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kymasabe
January 14, 2006, 09:31 AM
I was told at my CCW class that when stopped by the police to hand them your drivers license and registration but put your CCW permit on top of it all and leave your hands on the steering wheel.

But was also told here in Florida (maybe is a local thing and not a state thing) that any time there is a handgun involved in a traffic stop, that the cop has to call for back-up, which usually results in at least another 2 or 3 cars. Quite a spectacle for a minor traffic violation.

Is disclosure required...or even recommended?

craigntx
January 14, 2006, 09:34 AM
hand it to em at a 90 degree angle while singing the national anthem...
wait i digress, hehehe
no other coppers show up during my "incident"

orionengnr
January 14, 2006, 09:44 AM
In TX you must hand over your CHL license if carrying.

My CHL instructor (an active duty LEO) stated that even if you are not carrying, it is considered good form. When he runs your DL, it will show that you have a CHL as well. If you have already disclosed this during your initial "chat", no surprises, no question about whether you are hiding something. IMHO, possessing a CHL and sharing that info establishes that you are a law-abiding citizen and should make subsequent conversation more positive...

Note: I have had my CHL less than one year and am in no hurry to test this theory. :)

rezmedic54
January 14, 2006, 09:47 AM
In Arizona it's not mandatory you disclose you have a permit but probably a good idea. I tell my students this but when you do disclose you are packing you leave it up to the officer where you go from there. And you are required to let him take it once you notify him you have one on you.

sparkysteve
January 14, 2006, 10:23 AM
In Michigan it is required to inform a police officer that you are carrying during a stop.

sparkysteve
January 14, 2006, 10:25 AM
I'm sure it varies from state to state. You should be told how to handle it during your CCW class.

SamD
January 14, 2006, 11:53 AM
Only if required by law.

Sam

Dwight55
January 14, 2006, 11:55 AM
In Ohio, . . . like several others, . . . it is mandatory.

But even without that, . . . I believe it is just being courteous to the LEO if one does it, . . . and a little courtesy never hurt anyone.

May God bless,
Dwight

texdawg
January 14, 2006, 03:25 PM
I just went thru this last week (speeding ticket:o ), I handed it to the officer and he asked if I was carrying my weapon, I said yes, he asked where it was, I said briefcase, he said, do me a favor and keep away from your briefcase. He proceeded to write me a ticket and didn't seem to care much about it.

The British Soldier
January 14, 2006, 03:31 PM
It makes sense to make them aware, and common courtesy. While in Northern Ireland if I was in civvies and armed [which was most of the time]; when you pass through a security checkpoint on foot it was the done thing to have your ID card in your palm. When it came for your turn to be searched you could give the security or Police guy a glimpse of the card and whisper to him that you were 'Security Forces Carrying' or 'SF Carrying'.

They all knew the score and switched their metal detector to stand-by discreetly as you stepped through it, so as not to compromise your identity. I imagine that a variation of this theme would be appropriate in the US, where you are legally authorised to carry if you have a CCW permit.

AirForceShooter
January 14, 2006, 03:33 PM
here in Fla. you are NOT required to disclose to a LEO that you're armed but I do. Put yourself in their shoes. All of a sudden the driver reaches for something and there's a gun on his/her hip. Tension goes wayyy up, LEO goes condition RED. Not a good thing.
Here on the West coast of Fla. they don't call for backup.
But your'e going to spend some quality time talking about guns. The LEO may secure gun for the duration of the stop and maybe even run the serial number to see if it's stolen.
Best part is, go with the flow and be nice and you're not getting that ticket you richly deserve.

AFS

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 04:11 PM
'No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.'

SamD
January 14, 2006, 04:22 PM
Concealed means concealed.

Sam

Hkmp5sd
January 14, 2006, 04:29 PM
As stated, it is not required in Florida. I have done both methods to date. On one occasion, I informed the LEO and he disarmed be during the remainder of the stop. On the second occasion, I never informed them and they never knew I was armed.

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 04:45 PM
every time I've gotten a ticket while armed they freak out like I just threatened their lives by handing my concealed pistol license out with the driver's license :rolleyes:

swmike
January 14, 2006, 04:51 PM
Another thought would be to alter the behavior that causes one to be stopped by the police in the first place. When I look back at the 46 years I have had a drivers license and the times I was stopped it was for STUPID things. Driving an old POS car with numerous equipment violations to driving at 100 in a 55 mph zone. Once I altered my behavior, I didn't get stopped any more.

I have had a Carry Permit since I was 21 (41 years ago) and have ALWAYS made it a practice of handing it to the officer with my DL and Insurance Card. Have never had the "bracelts" applied or the weapon removed. Just admonished to keep hands away from it. Most officers thanked me for the advance notice. They all stated that they hated surprises.

My last encounter was with a Sheriff's Deputy investigating an accident where someone with an accute case of "cranial rectal inversion" ran into the back of my Pickup at a stop sign. He handed the CPL back to me and walked off to his car. No further questions or instructions. If you are legal, your legal. If not, prepare for the "treatment".

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 04:54 PM
I get pulled over because I look oriental or hispanic..since I'm not white :rolleyes:

Wildalaska
January 14, 2006, 04:54 PM
Absolutely...whether required by law or not. I am a responsible, courteous carryer and do not with to do anything to contribute to the image of gun owners as potential loonies

WildtheaveragejoeAlaska

AK103K
January 14, 2006, 05:07 PM
Its not required here in PA. If they dont ask, I dont offer. I dont see any reason to bring it up, and I really dont see that its any of their business. I dont ask to see theirs. :)

Cryptoboy
January 14, 2006, 05:45 PM
It's not really concealed from the cop once he/she pulls you over and runs your license though SamD. Sure it may not be visible, but he/she is going to know that you are carrying. Why try to **** the cop off by hiding something that he/she knows you most likely carrying?

Triggerhappy, what exactly does your post have to do with the original question?

Just keep in mind, a little courtesy goes a long way!

kymasabe, according to packing.org for Florida, you don't have to notify an officer that you are carrying. More often than not though, I've heard it actually helps you and your situation out. (Last time I got pulled over was in 2002, and I didn't have a CCW back then).

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 05:47 PM
swmike said something about altering your driving behavior to avoid being pulled over

imur_huckle_berry
January 14, 2006, 05:55 PM
you're required to disclose in TX, but I probably would anyway. Whan I had my wreck last week the deputy wanted to know if "my piece was loose"...lol...I told him I had it and it was secured in my wife's car (she beat him to the scene) and all was good.

ahem...WildtheaveragejoeAlaska

WHATEVER! j/k Ken, good to see ya, thanks for the fast shipping on the mags!

Cryptoboy
January 14, 2006, 06:07 PM
RIght, and I still fail to see what that has to do with the Fifth Amendment. You alter your driving habits (or behavior as he says) and you aren't going to get pulled over. The guy driving at 65mph (if that's the speed limit) most likely isn't going to be bothered by a cop, as opposed to the guy that is doing 85mph in a 65 zone. Same with what you drive. You drive a car that has missing taillights, you will get pulled over. While most people consider such actions minor, you are in fact already BREAKING the law by doing the above items.

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 06:16 PM
there's a part that says something about self incrimination..may not mean anything to you, but I see the 4th and 5th Amendments as sacrosanct

Wildalaska
January 14, 2006, 06:27 PM
The 4th and 5th amendments have NOTHING to do with advising an officer of wheter you are carryinng a lawful CCW

WildwhatsillinessAlaska

pickpocket
January 14, 2006, 06:31 PM
Irrelevant. If you are legally carrying a concealed weapon, you are not 'incriminating yourself' by showing your license.

All in all, always remember that there are two interpretations to any law...the letter and the spirit. It's up to you to decide which to abide by in your particular situation. Just don't be surprised if the cops don't fully appreciate your desire to adhere to your belief that 'concealed means concealed'..

I've always said that during an encounter with the local law may not always be the appropriate time to make a political statement or to take a stance on anything other than 'what is it gonna take to let me be on my way'...

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 06:35 PM
If I'm asked I'll answer but my lawyer states that I'm never to volunteer information

woodland
January 14, 2006, 06:45 PM
Another thought would be to alter the behavior that causes one to be stopped by the police in the first place.

While in most cases this is true, it does not apply for all cases. For example, even if you drive perfect, and make no mistakes, what about when your tail light or brake light burns out? It happens. Or what if someone hits you? There are all kinds of reasons to need to give an officer your "papers" that don't involve any negligence or wrong doing on your part.

Heck, the police can even make a mistake. I was pulled over once and told my tabs were expired. I said "No, they're not." He said "Yes, they are." I said again "No, they aren't." He then asked me to step out of the vehicle and come to the back with him to look at the plate. We did, and they were not expired. He was sorry, and left fairly quickly after that, but he still ran my licence. I never said anything about CCW. Didn't even think about it, because the whole thing was so bizaare. It just never crossed my mind. And in Washington you are not required to tell, nor are you required to hand your weapon. (This is what the sherriff told me when I got the permit)

Harley Quinn
January 14, 2006, 06:46 PM
With that kind of attitude I am surprised you are able to go CCW.
In Florida most of the people are hispanic and so are the police % wise. So what would be the big deal???

I feel you are just being a responsible citizen and if you can't be responsible, who would give you a gun permit or why?

HQ

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 06:49 PM
For decades, the "driving while Black or brown" phenomenon was well known in the minority population, but largely unnoticed among other Americans. But beginning in the 1990's, empirical evidence emerged to support the anecdotal accounts of racial profiling on America's highways. This evidence demonstrated that Black and other minority motorists were and are being stopped at a rate far out of proportion to their presence in the overall population or on the highways. For example:

A U.S. Department of Justice report on police contacts with the public concluded that in 1999, African Americans were 20 percent more likely to be stopped than White Americans, and 50 percent more likely than Whites to have experienced more than one stop.19 Police were more than twice as likely to search an African American or Hispanic driver than a White driver.20
In the three-year period from January 1995 to December 1997, Blacks comprised more than 70 percent of the drivers stopped and searched by the Maryland State Highway Patrol, although they made up only 17.5 percent of the overall drivers (and overall speeders).21 These disparities were explained by a state document called the "Criminal Intelligence Report," which contained an explicit policy targeting Black motorists.22
A study of traffic stops on the New Jersey Turnpike between 1988-1991 found that Blacks were 35 percent of those stopped, though only 13.5 percent of the cars on the turnpike had a Black occupant and Blacks were only 15 percent of all traffic violators.23 A 1999 State Attorney General's Report studying Turnpike stops and searches in 1997-1998 concluded that almost 80 percent of searches involved Blacks and other minorities.24
In the early 1990's, an investigation of the practices of the Volusia County, Florida Sheriff's Department revealed that although Blacks or Hispanics were only five percent of the drivers on a portion of I-95 that ran through the county, they were nearly 70 percent of drivers stopped on that stretch of highway. Blacks and Hispanics were not only stopped more than Whites, they were also stopped for longer periods of time than Whites.25
Recent studies confirm the persistence of the "driving while Black or brown" phenomenon. LAPD data for the period July-November 2002 reveals that while Blacks comprised only 10 percent of the overall population of Los Angeles, they were 18 percent of those subjected to traffic stops. Moreover, 22 percent of Blacks who were stopped were asked to step out of their cars, as compared to only seven percent of Whites stopped. Once out of their cars, 67 percent of Blacks were patted down and 85 percent subjected to a body search. Fifty-five percent of Hispanics removed from their cars were patted down and 84 percent searched. By contrast, only 50 percent of Whites were patted down and 71 percent searched.26

pickpocket
January 14, 2006, 06:58 PM
Sooooo.....what's your point?

This is a thread about whether or not you should let an officer conducting a traffic stop know that you are carrying...not an opportunity to launch into a diatribe about the injustices of racial profiling.

Nobody is saying it doesn't happen...we're saying that your attempt to justify your cavalier attitudes about whether or not you should let a cop know you're legally carring concealed by citing the 4th and 5th Amendments only highlight the fact that you need to go back and actually learn more than soundbites about the U.S. Constitution and smacks of a certain ignorance.

Wanna know why most people get patted down? Black, white, hispanic, asian.... I promise you that - regardless of the reason for the stop - most of these people were...shall we say....less than cooperative? Like I said, during a traffic stop is not the appropriate time to stand up for your political beliefs.

Oh....and statistics will say anything the author wants them to say. Quoting a study with a bunch of statistics isn't usually the best way to win an argument.

Harley Quinn
January 14, 2006, 07:09 PM
Trigger Happy...

When is it you would say, hey wait! I am armed! (after they throw you to the ground or shoot you)?

Curious as to how far you are going to carry your charade?

HQ

Hkmp5sd
January 14, 2006, 07:46 PM
In Florida most of the people are hispanic and so are the police % wise. So what would be the big deal???


Huh? Which Florida are we speaking of?

trigger happy
January 14, 2006, 07:52 PM
charade ? please..:rolleyes:

38SnubFan
January 14, 2006, 09:30 PM
Like AK said, here in PA, we're not required to disclose to LEOs that we are armed when traffic or "terry" stopped. However, like others, I do. I think it's just good manners when dealing with the law, so that there are no suprises. Those who walk the "thin blue line" are already in Code Orange when they come up to your driver's window. Too many traffic stops have gone bad here in PA recently, and at least one officer has been critically injured or killed because of it. The situation is stressful enough...let's not make it any harder on them. They're honestly just doing what their job is - what we, the taxpayers, pay them to do.

Trigger Happy, as much as I would like to admire your points, I can't. I too feel you need to not make something as a police officer talking to you or asking you questions as a racial "stabbing" of your civil rights. Yes, it's unfortunate that minorities get targeted by law enforcement and the justice system. Can I point out something else? Blacks make up 13% of the general population, yet make up 80% of the correctional system inmate population. That's a BIG number.

The Boys In Blue may not like using these statistics, but it keeps them alive. Ignorance of that fact has KILLED good cops.

I've also worked in a field where I had to be concerned about somebody I investigated or questioned being armed. Let me tell you this: If you fail to disclose to me that you're armed, then turn around and I search you and find a gun, a magazine/speedloader, or even a single solitary cartridge...you'll be eating floor tire, asphalt, or the wall!

So do us all a favor: Feel free to have your political views, but respect the views of others. Like my old chief (a veteran police officer) told me and others, "I've been shot at, punched, kicked, hit with a car, and been cursed at. But I would put my life on the line to protect these same people. That's my sworn oath to myself, others, and God."

It's called "mutual courtesy".

-38SnubFan

Ares45
January 14, 2006, 09:40 PM
Here in NC I'm required by law to notify a LEO if I'm stopped or otherwise in their presence. I'm also required to surrender the weapon for the duration of the encounter if asked to do so. I got pulled over a few years ago , kept both hands on the wheel and notified the trooper immediately . He asked me to hand him the weapon with my left hand and then scolded me for carrying condition 1. LOL. Didn't bother to tell him I was left handed after that. He never asked to see my permit. I'm guessing it's attached to my driver's license in the computer. The officer was very courteous other than returning the weapon to me in about 15 pieces included a handful of ammo and an empty mag. I was doing 77mph in a 55 and got a warning ticket. Somehow I got the feeling he didn't like hanging out with armed civilians.

Capt Charlie
January 14, 2006, 09:41 PM
Let's go off on your tangent for just a moment.

I work for the only department in the United States that has successfully completed a U.S. Justice Dept. Consent Decree. It took us seven long years to accomplish that, and constantly being under the thumb of DOJ was not a picnic.

We conducted quarterly risk assessment audits with DOJ personnel present for every one of them. The audits essentially consisted of two areas: charging practices in those areas easily abused, and racial bias. The charges tracked included things like Obstruction of Justice, Resisting Arrest, Disorderly Conduct, etc. Possible racial bias was also tracked, and red flags went up on any officers who's stops involved 30% or more minorities. The red flags resulted in a microscopic analysis of the officer's actions, review of VICS tapes, private interviews with those the officer had encountered, etc.

Sounds good, so far, right? It would've been, had DOJ used a lick of common sense, which they're apparently incapable of. They analyzed the data statistically, which might work with a large dept. like LA or NYPD, but for a smaller dept. of 50 officers with statistically insignificant numbers, officers were being unfairly branded as biased.

Let me put it this way. You're a cop on my dept. You do your job well, but you work a sector with little activity in the way of resisting arrest. You charged two people last quarter with resisting, one white, and one black. You are now at 50% minority involvement and you're red flagged. Your professional life just became a living hell.

So much for statistics, huh?

By the way, in our 7 years under the decree, there was not one single allegation of racial bias sustained by USDOJ.

Now.... back to the thread topic ;) .

American4guns
January 14, 2006, 10:22 PM
Ok is it safe to go back to the topic?I had a carry permit in pa,i'm now in NJ.However if i was to get pulled over i would have handed over my card with my other papers.Only for the fact that was mentioned previously.I'm never in the mood to get shot for rolling through a red light or for speeding.I want them to know i am armed and then let them decide how to handle it.I have the utmost respect for law enforcement.I have close family in law enforcement and i know what they go throughon the job.I can safely say that any time i have been stopped it was for some action i took.

Romeos Tune
January 14, 2006, 11:54 PM
We are required to inform the leo of our license and whether or not we're carrying. So far it hasn't happened to me yet. Only time I've ever had to show it so far is when a guy tried to do me in with a bat and I had to draw on him.

pickpocket
January 15, 2006, 12:24 AM
... but my lawyer states that I'm never to volunteer information

I always like it when someone throws the "my lawyer" out in a sentence. It makes one sound so sophisticated.... :D

radshop
January 15, 2006, 01:58 AM
I'm shocked at the piling on Trigger Happy and the police state mentality here.

With that kind of attitude I am surprised you are able to go CCW.
I feel you are just being a responsible citizen and if you can't be responsible, who would give you a gun permit or why?

So now a citizen has to earn the right to have a gun by showing The Man that he has the right attitude?

This is a very pro-police thread, so I'll probably get piled on, too. I don't carry - if I choose to in the future, I'll get a permit. But not because I think the government has the right to require it of me, but because I know that my rights are irrelevant in a practical sense to our various governments. If, at such time, the law requires me to inform an officer that I'm carrying, I'll comply for the same reason.

The self-proclaimed responsible, courteous, upstanding citizens on this thread didn't care about who was on-topic or off-topic until someone pointed out the obvious with regard to police and race (I'm a middle-class WASP, in case it matters).

riverkeeper
January 15, 2006, 02:38 AM
Sure, why not show your CCW to the officer?

I lived in the South for 20years and most of my family is still there. IF I was an Afro American Black in the South (and many other places) AND legally carried AND was not required to reveal it AND it was not tied to my plates -- I SURE AS HECK WOULD NOT VOLUNTEER THE INFO TO AN OFFICER. Change my race and I would.

Life can be more 'complicated' if you are not a WASP male.

38 Snub--both of your stats are wrong and lower and if adjustment is made for the poverty factor the rate is far closer.

McBrideGuns
January 15, 2006, 03:42 AM
ok i've read all the post on this subject and just in my openion comming from someone who has actually worked for the place where you get the permits IF i carried which i plan to do soon i personally wouldnt volunteer the info unless asked but where i'm from if the officer asks if you carry he actually already know's you do because its prented on your license and comes up on the computers when he calls it in to run your tags but if he doesnt ask then no im not going to volunteer the info but if he does then sure i'd tell him

rezmedic54
January 15, 2006, 05:02 AM
Heck anybody here that's in LEO will attest to this from day one that is where they are thought that they are most likely to get killed. As an instructor here in AZ. and a retired Paramedic I know most of the guys that work the streets. I get stopped every time I teach a class just so the supervisor that day sees how his trainee of the day will handle it. I always tell them I carry it's both for your safety and theirs. The only time I freaked was a newbie couldn't figure out how to unload a 1911 and almost shot me and his super. Other then that a word of warning about weather your carrying goes along way to make things go easier. But heck what do I know

Harley Quinn
January 15, 2006, 05:17 AM
I feel he is off on this one.

Lets see I am a white cop I work a 80% African American Division in a major inner city and you want to say because I stop 8 out of 10 that are African American I am in violation...LOL

Lets see and that eve at rollcall they say 'first gun goes home early', so am I going to be looking for a non gang banger???LOL

I am going to have to figure this one out? HMMM

OK

HQ

NDTerminator
January 15, 2006, 07:50 AM
It amuses me no end when someone utters the phrase "my lawyer", like they have one in a kennel behind the house. TH, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone really isn't out to get you!:)

I don't worry about CCW permit holders on traffic stops, and folks might be surprised how accurately a veteran LEO can key on who these folks are. Just the same, I do appreciate it when they show their permit and advise where the bellygun is.

Up here in ND, anyone can legally carry in their vehicle a rifle or shotgun uncased and loaded in the magazine. These are much greater threats than any handgun, and take much less skill to employ effectively. We encounter this more often than not on any given stop, often there are both a shotgun and centerfire rifle (usually a 22-250 or 223) present.

You want to experience pucker factor, try stopping a drunk with an authority complex like TH's, and has a loaded 12 gauge on the seat next to him at 0300 hrs in the morning...

Romeos Tune
January 15, 2006, 08:48 AM
lol @ the pucker factor :D

trigger happy
January 15, 2006, 08:51 AM
I've posted facts and precedents..not uninformed opinions that are based in some Utopian worldview..I have a license to carry because we have a right to carry law in this state..the law even applies to American Indians, Alaska Natives and Hawaiians

Derius_T
January 15, 2006, 09:51 AM
Trigger Happy, not to be sarcastic, or rude......but exactly what in the blue hell does ANYTHING you've said have to do with the topic of this thread? The original question was do you (out of courtesy or compliance with the law) inform an officer that you have a permit, and are carrying? What does that question have to do with the 4th or 5th amendments, ANYTHING AT ALL RACIAL, or anything else you've been running on about? It has absolutely no relavence to the topic at hand. Contribute to the discussion by all means, but if you want to start a discussion about racial profiling, or constitutional amedments, or for God's sake lawyers.....please start a thread about it and ramble on there.........:confused:

trigger happy
January 15, 2006, 10:24 AM
somebody said something about altering my driving habits to avoid getting pulled over and the tangent went on from there..it's not the first time a thread has ever gone off topic around here :rolleyes:

imur_huckle_berry
January 15, 2006, 10:49 AM
As of 9/1/05, in Texas, anyone who can legally own a firearm can CC in their vehicle when traveling (even down the street to the grocery store, there are no longer limitations that define "travel"). Now, let's say you do not have a CHL and you are stopped for rolling through the stop sign. When you hand your DL to the LEO, he will not see a CHL when he runs it through. How beneficial would it be for him to know that you are LEGALLY packing? How bad would this turn if Mr. LEO spots the butt of your 1911 sticking up between the seats and you have "kept quiet"? (I totally understand what concealed means, but it COULD happen) Again, as a CHL holder, I am required to disclose, but non-permit holders are not. Too many BGs out there looking to do harm NOT to let him know, if he finds it on his own you may eat some asphalt, and will most definately get covered by HIS CW. If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?

xnavy
January 15, 2006, 11:04 AM
I live in Texas and it is mandatory to show the officer your license whether you are carrying or not. I will say this everytime I have been pulled over, usually for something stupid like speeding, I have yet to be given a ticket when presenting my CHL with my drivers license. The same thing used to happen when I presented my military ID when I was in the service, most of the time no ticket just a friendly warning. I have never had a problem with an officer and it usually puts them at ease IMHO presenting the CHL with your drivers license.

DasBoot
January 15, 2006, 11:13 AM
Hey Trigger,
If someone belongs to a group that makes up, oh, let's say, 12% of the population, and said group commits approx. 80%+ of the violent crime in the country, wouldn't you expect members of said group to, fairly or not, get more than their fair share of scrutiny from LEOs?:rolleyes:
Not to mention shopkeepers, taxi drivers(which I was), banktellers, the general public, etc, etc.
All the more reason to reveal your gun status to an LEO, just so there are no misunderstandings.:rolleyes:

Capt Charlie
January 15, 2006, 12:59 PM
it's not the first time a thread has ever gone off topic around here
And it won't be the first time a thread gets locked for doing so ;) .

Gentlemen, stay on topic....please!

If you want to start a thread on racial profiling, do so in the Legal & Political Forum. This is not the place to do so.

trigger happy
January 15, 2006, 01:00 PM
American Indians, Alaska Natives and Hawaiians on their best days don't make up 12% of our population

Harley Quinn
January 15, 2006, 01:35 PM
Thank you for making this thread go longer then I thought it would. Numerous informative responses due to your input.

When I was in Hawaii I don't believe they make up that much of the population anymore. But over on the Island's they are still causing trouble.

I have no idea what the CCW is for Hawaii, but I'll bet it is hard to get.
More Karate experts per square mile over there than any other state. LOL

What happens on the reservations and casinos do they hire anyone else like the rest of the country does or are they just in it for themselves? CCW is it controlled on reservations like the rest of the US or???

If I was on an Indian reservation I would definitly let them know. Talk about attitude. LOL

HQ

pickpocket
January 15, 2006, 02:06 PM
radshop:
So now a citizen has to earn the right to have a gun by showing The Man that he has the right attitude?

Ummm...no. What I'm saying is that if you don't want extra bull**** to deal with during a freaking traffic stop, then don't bring it on yourself.

Trigger Happy:
somebody said something about altering my driving habits to avoid getting pulled over and the tangent went on from there...

And......you're saying that you have a Constitutional right not to alter your driving habits in order to keep from getting pulled over? Good point... :rolleyes:
So just make your point: that NO, you won't let the cops know you're carrying unless you have to. End of story.

Pointer
January 15, 2006, 02:16 PM
Do you disclose CCW when stopped by LEO ?


Does a bear sleep in the woods??? :cool:

markdido
January 15, 2006, 04:24 PM
But was also told here in Florida (maybe is a local thing and not a state thing) that any time there is a handgun involved in a traffic stop, that the cop has to call for back-up, which usually results in at least another 2 or 3 cars. Quite a spectacle for a minor traffic violation.

Last year, I did my bit for international tourism by rear-ending a carload of British tourists at a stop light.

FHP showed up and asked what happened. I told him "...the light turned yellow, he stopped, I didn't, my fault" and handed him my license and registration, but NOT my CW permit (frankly I didn't think about it) One Trooper, no backup

I work for the local S. O. (non-sworn) but I wasn't wearing anything that identified me as such, nor did I mention it

After about 10 minutes, the trooper got back out of his car, and handed me and my victim an "exchange of information" form.

No ticket and no questions about my permit, although I think in FL, CCW permits are flagged along with the DL.

Dust_Devil
January 15, 2006, 04:45 PM
Not mandatory in Arizona unless LEO asks.

If I was just stopped for a minor traffic violation, I wouldn't bother to volunteer my CCW permit.
If I was stopped for some type of security issue or for some more serious issues, I would then probably let the officer know, without him asking, that I carry concealed for his own comfort where he doesn't overreact later on if he discovers it on his own.
It would all depend on the situation, the mood and the actions of the LEO that would make me decide if I better let him know I am carrying concealed.

AirForceShooter
January 15, 2006, 07:54 PM
Mark:
it's always been a question if your CCW is flagged when a LEO runs your DL.
You should have told him just so the Brits could hear you. That would have been fun.

AFS

outlier
January 15, 2006, 08:59 PM
I live in a state where it is not mandatory to tell the officer you are carrying if you are pulled over (unless they ask). The pistol permit class that I took was taught by two retired officers (relatively recently retired). When this question came up they told us to first of all, do as another poster put it, "alter your behavior" so as not to put yourself in an ugly situation in the first place. Then he told us that if we should, for example, get pulled over for speeding, don't even bring it up. He said that it make things real tense for no reason. BUT if the officer asks you to step out of the vehicle or asks to search you or the vehicle, you'd better let the officer know right away that you have a pistol permit, that you are currently carrying, where it is, etc... Then follow the officer's instructions.
The two times I was pulled over for speeding I was asked to pull out my license. As I pull out my DL, there was no way the officers couldn't see the pistol permit because of the way I carry it in my wallet. Because I was heading someplace where I could not legally carry, I was unarmed both times. Each time the respective officer asked if I was carrying, I said no, they said okay wait there - end of story. (I did get a ticket each time)
My feeling is that I would tell the officer upfront if I was carrying, but I wouldn't go out of my way to bring up my permit if I wasn't. Our instructors said that the permit was not currently linked to our DL, but that would probably change eventually.

LICCW
January 15, 2006, 10:27 PM
I've never been pulled over carrying, heck, I haven't been pulled over in over 10 years (watch-I get pulled over tomorrow) so I can't exactly say what I would do, but it's probably a good idea to inform the officer especially since you are not doing anything wrong. I think it would put the officer at more ease than if he dicovered it himself.

losvaqueros
January 16, 2006, 12:22 AM
I think there shpuld be some kind of designation on your DL about having a carry permit, like it does for a motorcyle lic or eye glasses

last_stand
January 16, 2006, 12:59 AM
thats how it is in MO. right by the DL # it says CCW

azurefly
January 18, 2006, 07:14 AM
I think there shpuld be some kind of designation on your DL about having a carry permit, like it does for a motorcyle lic or eye glasses.


Why?
I might have a carry permit and not even be carrying.
The bad guy won't have a carry permit but most certainly could be carrying.

Motorcycle license or corrective lens requirement are relevant to the fact that you were operating a motor vehicle on public roads. Having a license to carry a gun, and having the gun on you, are not relevant to being stopped for speeding. Why not require driver's licenses to show that I belong to the NRA, or am a licensed pilot? What if you required people to divulge that they're in the ACLU?

If a felon hands over his license -- and he obviously doesn't have a CCW permit but he does have a handgun on him -- is the license he gives the cop gonna say, "He's carrying a gun!"? :rolleyes:

So if the actual bad guys are not going to have something on their info that alerts the cop to the idea that maybe they're carrying guns, what would it benefit the cop if my license said that I, a good guy (by virtue of following the law and getting a license to carry) had such a license? And why should I be forced to have what may amount to a stigma with a given cop? Some cops will be displeased if I'm licensed and carrying, because they oppose that policy. I should have to open myself up to their scorn even though the information has nothing to do with the stop?



The little blip of info on the license card doesn't help the cop at all. He should be going about every single stop in a way that guards his safety. If he gets blase about doing stops, it's time to retire.


-azurefly

Mtnvalley3
January 18, 2006, 09:35 AM
we are not required to inform the officer, but they will find out of your CCW when they run your DL.

In the carry class I took (taught by a LEO), he advised us that we may wish to keep the info to ourselves unless asked...particularly when stopped by members of one local LEA who are likely to spread-eagle you against the car trunk just to disarm you.

I asked two LEO friends from different agencies, and after initially answering that staying mum might be best, agreed with me that communicating that you're holding and showing permit early on in the stop is probably a good idea. I just think too much could go wrong if the LEO spotted it on his own...and none of that which could go wrong is beneficial to me.

As it happens, I was recently stopped by an officer of the supposedly-overzealous agency over a license plate thing. I informed him when giving him my DL, and he was appreciative and never either asked where my weapon was nor asked for it (though I was maintaining hands on steering wheel).

However- when I had to go to my center console to look for current registration ( I seldom drive that car), he did stop me and ask where the weapon was. When I told him it was in my right front jacket pocket and asked him how he wanted me to proceed...he said to just sit still and he'd retrieve it.

I couldn't believe this, but he then stuck his upper body into my car through the open window to reach across my body for it....leaving him both very vulnerable (off balance, and my hands/arms not visible behind his head). Worse- his service Glock was literally less than a foot from my hand and out of his view as I was turned to accommodate his removal of my gun. I'm a big guy, so it took him several seconds to fish his way into my pocket and get my gun. A good thing it was that I'm a good guy...

I thought about making a helpful suggestion for a safer disarm, but didn't want to be percieved as criticizing his methods- after all, I hadn't been ticketed yet. ;-) I tried being subtle, and asked him "say, are those Truglo TFO's with the tritium, or just fiber?" (the sights on his Glock), hoping that the situation might dawn on him...

All this occurred before his backup got there...and THAT guy gave me that vibe that if it was his stop, he'd not only prone me out in case I was carrying a BUG, but break out the rubber gloves to check Very Thoroughly.

38SnubFan
January 18, 2006, 08:09 PM
38 Snub--both of your stats are wrong and lower and if adjustment is made for the poverty factor the rate is far closer.


Sorry, I'm just going by the information I was given a while back. I'd be more than grateful for more correct and up-to-date information, as the numbers I've posted to seem startling - even to me!

:)

-38SnubFan

craigntx
January 18, 2006, 08:10 PM
if you aint packin you dont have to tell em you have a chl
but theyre gonna find out if they call you in

junkman6970
January 18, 2006, 08:27 PM
You don't have to say anything here in my state of Missouri, But I have been stopped and handed both my CCW and the driver's license and it went well, he ask where it was, went back to his car and said ok, have a good day and then asked what caliper and I told him. and away we go

Optical Serenity
January 19, 2006, 05:58 AM
Absolutely...whether required by law or not. I am a responsible, courteous carryer and do not with to do anything to contribute to the image of gun owners as potential loonies


+1

As an officer in a state (GA) that does NOT require you to tell me, I do have to say that I very much appreciate it. Actually, it also says a lot about you. Most people with a GA firearms permit are good law abiding citizens. In fact, I don't remember the last time I issued a ticket to someone who handed me one.

Northslope Nimrod
January 19, 2006, 12:04 PM
I acutally work closely with Law Enforcement and I find that if I tell them I am carrying and who I am in the same sentence it gets me out of tickets.
By telling them who I am....it explains "WHY" I carry and doesn't come across as me trying to get out of a ticket.

The discussion often leads to one of firearms.

guntotin_fool
January 19, 2006, 01:09 PM
heck yeah i tell,

simple reason, I drive for a living, my ticket per traffic stop has gone from about 1 for every three stops, to 1 in the last 12 or thirteen stops over the last five years. I do drive over the limit, i admit it, but i am not blasting thru traffic and weaving but at those groups stops where everyone in a caravan (group of cars, not the dodge minivan) is pulled over, I get a look and then the wave.

What is different between me now and then,? Nothing but that little plastic card i hand over with my license.