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Recon7
January 9, 2006, 10:09 PM
if something goes bump in the night do you grab a pistol or a long gun like a shotgun or rifle. on one side you have the stopping power of a long gun and sometimes hi capacity, on the other side if the BG is real close, he could grab your barrel and you'd be in for one hell of a wrestling match. I'm not going to bring up accuracy, because my house isen't big enough for that to matter. I read a lot of people who use a shotgun or ar-15 etc for home defense, but if you find yourself opening doors and turning corners, don't you give a lot up to the versatility of a pistol. another point, at this exact moment how many of you have a loaded pistol within reach, and how many of you have a loaded long gun within reach? I have a small child in the house, so I can't lean a loaded gun up against the closet wall, but I can carry a loaded pistol on my hip. just curious

alpineman
January 9, 2006, 10:21 PM
I work from home. I have no kids. I live on a big farm in the middle of nowhere. With that in mind...

Pistol is on my hip all day, every day. For things that go "bump" anytime.

The AR-15 stays by the bed, for things that go "bump" in the night after I've gone to bed.

Given the choice, I'd take my AR any time. The pistol just allows me to fight my way to the rifle (if it gets to that point...)

pickpocket
January 9, 2006, 10:36 PM
I've done a lot of CQB and taken down quite a few houses...but my opinions are no better than the next guy's :)
I can tell you that short-stocking a carbine is just as effective for clearing a house as a pistol in terms of movement and versatility; plus you get higher-power rounds, you can put more toys on a carbine, and it just looks freaking sexy.
In a pinch, isn't the time to be making that decision. Your strategy and primary/secondary weapon choice should be a conscious and deliberate thing, thought out in advance.
All things being equal:
I'd rather have a combat shotgun. I'm emotionally attached to the carbine, but that doesn't make it a better *all-around* home defense weapon. My argument against the carbine as a home defense weapon is that not everyone has the training to properly employ the damn thing...in the hands of a professional it's a highly dangerous surgical tool...to the novice it's just an overpaid rifle.
You have to remember the devastating psychological effect that racking a round into a shotgun has on anyone that can hear it. It's quite possible that single sound alone will diffuse the situation. At the very least, it's going to force BG to re-evaluate his now precarious hold on life.
Additinally, the shotgun will help mitigate less-than-precision accuracy if one is not as efficient with the carbine as one might think they are.

And...lastly...the shotgun will produce this extremely aesthetic red lingering mist wheras a carbine will not :)

It's all a matter of training and preference. If you really do know how to use the carbine, then by all means take the house down and clear the rooms. But just remember, there's always room for jello :D

SamD
January 10, 2006, 01:12 AM
I much prefer a shotgun, which is handy next to the bed.
I tuck a 1911 in the pocked of the bathrobe before I go out so I have the best of both worlds.

Anyone wants to grab thet 12 and pull it away from me is going to be real sorry.

Sam

Blackwater OPS
January 10, 2006, 01:45 AM
You have to remember the devastating psychological effect that racking a round into a shotgun has on anyone that can hear it. It's quite possible that single sound alone will diffuse the situation.
UGH, This AGAIN!?!?!:rolleyes: :barf:

All I feel like typing tonight is that is person with a pistol is very poorly armed vs a person with a shotgun/rifle, all other thing being equal. I would consider the pistol a "defensive" weapon and a shotgun/rifle an "offensive" weapon. Of course the best defense.....

warwagon
January 10, 2006, 02:53 AM
agreed! shotgun is the most effective in several ways. First, the presentation(sight, & sound) makes alot of bgs think twice, then think again(bgs by and large are not real bright!), second if it has to be used, it is Very effective in capable hands!
All that said, it is a matter of which you grab at the moment. Most perps do not want a confrontation with an armed resident, however sometimes there is no option left than to defend .At that time, the weapon you are able to use best, is
best.
A bat is better than nothing, but a firearm will give you a better chance to survive.

Weeg
January 10, 2006, 05:55 AM
Pickpocket brings up a good point...

In CQB and COMBAT, the pistol is a back-up...


.

High Planes Drifter
January 10, 2006, 12:05 PM
Use what you train on. If you train alot with your AR or .45, then use it. A novice with a 12ga. is no match for an expert with a .38.

pickpocket
January 10, 2006, 12:10 PM
Blackwater OPS:
UGH, This AGAIN!?!?!

Soooo...I take it that this is both an old topic and one you don't agree with.
The only thing I'll ask is if your personal pucker-factor has ever jumped up when you're in a house and YOU hear the damn shotgun chambering. I don't consider myself a "pro"..but I'm pretty good at what I do, and all I remember thinking when I heard the sound was "Fuuuuuuuuuuuu$k"...

johnnymenudo
January 10, 2006, 02:06 PM
I was always inclined to grab the pistol vs the shotgun because I feel more comfortable using the pistol. I changed my mind however after doing a shotgun match. Keep in mind that I did the same course earlier in the day using my pistol. It was mosty a course of steel poppers. After plinking the poppers earlier in the day and seeing them fall over lazily, seeing the aggressive knock down power of the shotgun made me a believer.

JM

Blackwater OPS
January 10, 2006, 05:30 PM
First of a guy w/ the balls to break into your home, possible ignoring alarms/dogs/screaming women/ect, while you are there is probably not the easily scared type. Second he is quite likely armed himself, not only the good guys have guns. Third you are giving away your posisition and as well as that fact that you are armed, so if he does have a gun chances are he will do everthing he can to use it on you. If you realy think the sound of the shotgun is going to make your average coked up thug run in fear I hope one never breaks into your house.:rolleyes:

BTW-you're in a house and YOU hear the damn shotgun chambering. I don't consider myself a "pro"..but I'm pretty good at what I do, and all I remember thinking when I heard the sound was "Fuuuuuuuuuuuu$k"...
What were you doing in someones house while they were chambering a shotgun round?!?:eek: What exactly are you not a "pro" at?!??!?!:confused: Moving up from pick pocketing are we?;)

losangeles
January 10, 2006, 06:26 PM
Shotgun. Pistol as backup.

Mannlicher
January 10, 2006, 06:47 PM
Inside Casa Mannlicher, middle of the night HD means a Colt's Commander with trijicon sights. If I anticpate going outside to check things, then the Bushmaster shorty is going.

So far as 'racking the shotty' goes.............. its not prudent. Internet BBS are just awash in myth, falsehoods, and half truths. This is one of them.

What guns work for one guy just might not work for another. Choose handgun, shotgun or rifle based on your experience and training. Take into consideration the layout of your home, location (rural or city), do you live alone, and other pertinent info. Try to not make your choice based on what some stranger with unverified credentials says on a BBS. That will most likely get you killed.

Coinneach
January 10, 2006, 06:53 PM
Blackwater, I can tell you from personal experience that it works. And yes, I was on the right end.

Maybe you're basing your opinion on going up against guys with Bad Mofo wallets. The rest of us tend to encounter less dangerous game: the kind for whom the sound of a pump-action is a very clear "You's gonna die, boy" signal.

payne
January 10, 2006, 08:32 PM
Hmmm, i probably would grab the shotty first when it's avaliable. The shotgun isn't always available because I'm not at home all the time. When I'm at my apartment all i have is my pistol.

And right now im at arms length from my pistol. (It's on my strong side). If I were at home I'd be at arms length from both a pistol and shotty.

Now, i personally wouldn't go looking for the person in my house. I'd wait behind the edge of my bed for them to come to me. When i saw them come into the bedroom they's catch a load full of 16ga pellets.

Blackwater OPS
January 10, 2006, 08:42 PM
Blackwater, I can tell you from personal experience that it works. I am not saying it could not work, just that I would not bet my life on it. I guessing that person you scared was unarmed. If so you were lucky in that respect. Myself, I will announce my armed presence with 15 high velocity plated 00 buck rounds center mass. Twice.

I'd wait behind the edge of my bed for them to come to me.
Smart move if you live alone, make them walk through the danger zone.

45-70
January 10, 2006, 08:44 PM
After taking a combat shotgun course, I don't worry about wrestling with a bad guy for my gun. The instructor had class members try it. Nobody could get a gun away.

Consider this: 1) you have the handle part, he has the "boom" part, not designed to hang onto
2) step one, jam the gun forward to his chest, (optional: pull trigger now) 3) step two, if he tried to step to the side, immediately jerk back on the handle part and watch where barrel is pointing if he holds on (his arms will be extended, the barrel pointing at his chest)
4) Step three, pull the trigger and see how long he hangs on.

The bad guy either lets go or gets a load of shot in the chest.

loosecannon
January 10, 2006, 08:50 PM
Just keep penetration in mind it can be especially powerful when using a long gun. One probably would not wish to shoot at the bad guy and have a stray round go through the wal and into your neighbor, (unless you don't really like that neighbor.;) )

pickpocket
January 10, 2006, 09:00 PM
Blackwater OPS:
First of a guy w/ the balls to break into your home, possible ignoring alarms/dogs/screaming women/ect, while you are there is probably not the easily scared type.
Ok...all things being equal, if the alarm is going off, the woman is screaming, and the dogs are barking, wouldn't you think it's a bit Hollywood to rack a round into the shotgun for pure drama? I would imagine that most reasonable people would realize that they're well beyond shock-value at that point.


Second he is quite likely armed himself, not only the good guys have guns. Third you are giving away your posisition and as well as that fact that you are armed, so if he does have a gun chances are he will do everthing he can to use it on you.

Giving away my position...kind of like the laser sight and the taclight, eh? I mean, do you think you're going to sneak up on the guy? If the guy's prepared to shoot you, then he was prepared to shoot you before he walked into your house and nothing has changed.
Then again, to me the idea is to protect my home and my family, and if I can do it without getting the walls messy then that's just fine with me.


If you realy think the sound of the shotgun is going to make your average coked up thug run in fear I hope one never breaks into your house.

He may not run in fear...he may. Hey may just reconsider his course of action...or he may not. Whatever...you can what-if this thing to death.

What were you doing in someones house while they were chambering a shotgun round?!? What exactly are you not a "pro" at?!??!?! Moving up from pick pocketing are we?

pickpocket is a callsign, not a profession.
As for being a "pro"...I may not be career SWAT, but I earned my stripes going door-to-door through three hostile Iraqi cities, so I picked up a thing or two....and you?

My opinions are based on my perspective, my personal experience...I don't claim to have the right answer for anyone other than myself.

Blackwater OPS
January 10, 2006, 09:12 PM
He may not run in fear...he may. Hey may just reconsider his course of action...or he may not.
Exactly my point, I will not take the chance he will use the time it takes me to chamber a round to try to get a shot off at me.

I earned my stripes going door-to-door through three hostile Iraqi cities
You do not have the market cornered on that, belive me. Of course that is an ENTIRELY different kind of situation.
BTW, what unit were you in, we might have run into each other somewhere.

Cmu_Sniper
January 10, 2006, 09:16 PM
Pickpocket I must go along with what you have to say. I to do not know everything and dont claim too. Im just basing my opinion off my experience. Ive been a SWAT operator for quite some time now and have been thru my share of doors. I am very comfortable with my carbine(AR-15 9X19 and Springfield Socom) as my home defense weapon, because thats what I TRAIN with and what I am confident with. If all some of you do is shoot pistols, then use the pistol as your weapon. If you are a person who uses the shotgun often, then use your shotgun etc.... I can go thru a door just as easily with my carbine as I can with my pistol. So all of this in a nut shell. Use what you are familiar with and what you are most experienced and confident with. The unknown weapon can cost you your life.

pickpocket
January 10, 2006, 09:19 PM
You do not have the market cornered on that, belive me. Of course that is an ENTIRELY different kind of situation.
BTW, what unit were you in, we might have run into each other somewhere.

Ummm...never intended to imply I had the market cornered...simply that my opinions aren't based on a show from the History Channel. And, it's not all that different. Intruder, house, occupants, guns...
I'm not going to argue down this line any further...it was an opinion, not a policy statement.
I will say this, though...many people tend to imagine having to defend their home from someone as skilled as themselves, and who would tend to make the same decisions as they would given certain criteria. I wouldn't say that's the best way to go about it.

I Co. 3rd Bn, 4th Marines
A Co. 1st Bn, 23d Marines

If you're really Blackwater, then I doubt we ran into each other.

delta58
January 10, 2006, 09:23 PM
Gerber MKII, just kidding, out of shape for that now. 835 ulti-mag loaded with duplex 6&4 3-1/2 mag. in the corner, Colt Commander in the nightstand.

OneInTheChamber
January 10, 2006, 09:33 PM
My opinion on racking the shotgun:

The first noise the BG hears should be his last.

Pickpocket: What weapons did you guys use to clear those Iraqi houses (m4's, m9's, or do you guys have some shotguns too?)

Chase

Mikeyboy
January 10, 2006, 09:50 PM
In an apartment or in a "new construction" (plywood and vinyl siding exterior walls) suburb like mine you want to go low penetration, either a handgun or a shotgun, in the boonies I rather have a carbine. Personally I switched from a shotgun to a handgun for Home defense simply because I have a lot of funky hallways in my house, and a pistol is just easier. Also racking the slide on my full size semi auto pistol sounds just as threatening as a pump shotgun racking a round.

pickpocket
January 10, 2006, 09:53 PM
What weapons did you guys use to clear those Iraqi houses

M4 carbines, M16's (A4) the Benelli M1014's (although to be honest my unit didn't have any) and even some of the older Remington 870's.

My preferred entry weapons are the AT-4, SMAW, or Mk19 :D

We carried M9's but preferred not to rely on them if we didn't have to. A few of us were smart and brought some quality HPs with us when we flew over, but I still only used the M9 in really tight spaces or when I needed a free hand. But, that said, don't ever let anyone tell you that a 9mm isn't a viable weapon :)

For the most part, in that environment, I prefer the carbine with a shotgun a close second. But then like Cmu_sniper said, it's what I know, what I'm comfortable with.

Mikeyboy
January 10, 2006, 10:12 PM
What weapons did you guys use to clear those Iraqi houses
Pickpocket, I heard in the big battles in Sunni strongholds, they would just level the house with some HE or a tank round. When there are no friendlies around why risk a soldiers' lives to clear a house. For a few thousands dollars, you reimburse the homeowner (unless he is an insurgent) for the house which is probably 50X more than the house is worth, plus your putting Iraqis to work rebuilding.

Blackwater OPS
January 10, 2006, 10:23 PM
A few of us were smart and brought some quality HPs with us when we flew over
That would get you a courts martial or at least captain's mast if I had caught you.
Or maybe I should just call Maj Russell now and report you, Williams. Oh yeah, I'm an MP ;). You know you love to hate us!
Heheheh, ok enough hijacking this thread.

pickpocket
January 10, 2006, 10:30 PM
That would get you a courts martial or at least captain's mast if I had caught you.

What an amazingly asinine thing to say.
Nice to know that you wouldn't have anything better to worry about in a combat zone.

I spent 10 years and two combat tours in the Marine Corps. I brought my entire sqaud back in one piece...TWICE. I don't need judgemental **** from anyone about what kind of ammo I carried. Get off your horse.


Mikey:
yeah, if tanks were available. Unfortunately there were more houses than there were tanks. But that was during the initial invasion.
My last go-round, we weren't cleared to fire anything over 84mm without clearance from Regiment or Division. Somehow AT-4's came in under the command's radar.
You're right, though...I'd rather level a house than risk one of my men. On the other side of that, I didn't want any of my guys to carry around images of dead women and kids...at least more than they had to. It's a fine line.

I think the thread is wandering :)

ethernectar
January 10, 2006, 10:39 PM
One in the Chamber said:
The first noise the BG hears should be his last.

+1

No tactical experience here, but a frequent shooter.

pickpocket
January 10, 2006, 10:49 PM
Edited.

Cmu_Sniper
January 10, 2006, 11:06 PM
It looks like this is starting to be a ******* match with you Blackwater. I must say though that telling Pickpocket that if you would have caught hime he would have gotten a court martial or captain's mast is pretty disrespectful. In fact I find it quite alarming that in the face of battle, in such a war, that someone would look to play against its own. Im no military man, and dont claim to be one. Also it may not be my place to speak on such a subject, however being an MP is no where near being a grunt on the battle feild. In my world of SWAT being an MP would be like being a SCHOOL CROSSING GAURD compared to being a SWAT operator as would an MP to a combat soldier. But thats just my opinion. I just find it very disrespectful you would even tell a fellow Soldier something like that.

Capt Charlie
January 10, 2006, 11:10 PM
*Ahem* Will the liberal application of a fire extinguisher here be enough, or do I need to break out the big guns? ;)

Blackwater OPS
January 10, 2006, 11:17 PM
MP is no where near being a grunt on the battle feild. In my world of SWAT being an MP would be like being a SCHOOL CROSSING GAURD compared to being a SWAT operator as would an MP to a combat soldier.
First of you obviously have no idea what MPs do on the battlefield, I would be willing to bet I have done as much MOUT and building clearing as any Marine (he is not a soldier and I would not insult him by refering to him as such).
Second, I was on a SRT team which IS the military version of "SWAT".
Would I really bust anyone in combat for having HPs? Hell no, I was being a smartA$$. Enough hijacking of this thread I will not post on it anymore, if you have a comment for me use PM.

Cmu_Sniper
January 10, 2006, 11:28 PM
Well I stand by what I say. Your true colors are expressed in your style of message on this forum and quite frankly, Im not putting down any military person, im just putting down you. SO take it as you will. And your right about you being a smart A$&. Not a good attitude to have. PM that!!

stratus
January 10, 2006, 11:46 PM
Well I stand by what I say. Your true colors are expressed in your style of message on this forum and quite frankly, Im not putting down any military person, im just putting down you. SO take it as you will. And your right about you being a smart A$&. Not a good attitude to have. PM that!!
Blackwater is a good guy, I have known him for a while now and can vouch for his "true colors" better than you can. He just doesn't believe that racking a shotgun is the best way to go about preserving one's own life, which, believe it or not, is what eventually escalated into arguing for whatever reason.

I'm going to reiterate what has been rightly observed by a couple of veterans on this forum: IT'S THE @#$(* INTERNET, IT'S NOT @#$()* REAL.

Let's everyone just pretend it didn't happen so that this thread can fizzle out with dignity?

Capt Charlie
January 11, 2006, 12:31 AM
*sigh*

They just won't listen, ma. :(

Let's everyone just pretend it didn't happen so that this thread can fizzle out with dignity?
If I did that, there's other folks I'd have to apologize to.

Closed, for going from a theoretical battlefield to a personal battlefield.