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riverkeeper
January 2, 2006, 01:34 AM
After successfully and quickly FSP double tapping 4 cylinders of 38+p thru the snub into 4 in diameter circles at 20 ft last week at the range I tried my uninformed interuptation of Quick Kill. Discussed here briefly a few weeks ago, more detail here, scroll down a bunch--
http://www.pointshooting.com/qk.htm

After a few dry fire points I put 3 cylinders thru …while quickly double tapping. I could not believe it! Pattern was in a 5 1/2 in diameter centered pattern but 3 inches high – except for a slightly jerked (3 in right) a flyer on the 3rd shot while my conscious brain did not trust the approach.

It is common to hear here ‘you’ll shoot as you are trained.’ That I believe is generally true but as demonstrated during many police shootings a whole lot of spray and pray goes on during surprise-startle situations. I like and trust FSP for other than virtual contact situations BUT I did like QK’s speed and that it uses the natural tendency to visually fix on and point to targets without the need to come back to the front sight to go. It seems we could use QK at modest distance (say 10-30ft) when speed is needed and FSP or sights beyond that as possible. I have not experimented beyond this.

Unlike me, many of you are instructors &/or highly trained and experienced so I am curious what you think about it.
:cool:

Harley Quinn
January 2, 2006, 01:54 AM
But like you say at some point or distance you need to aim. (with sights)

The QK is really a good thing for the guy who is a gunfighter (LEO) and the avid shooter or Home defense person. So I think it is a good thing to practice it and shoot well. With that tech.

Heck time is important in a gunfight. So is accuracy, at some point or distance accuracy takes over. If you can hit a one foot circle at 50 feet with the QK method you are going to be very deadly.

Since there are plenty of stats and everyone has some, I believe that 80% of the time gunfights occur in an area less than 10 feet.
So Practice QK 80% of the time.:D 10 yds and closer.

Harley

U.S.SFC_RET
January 2, 2006, 10:08 AM
I do remember a version of QK being taught in the Army, Close quarter combat drill. I've never taken the course though. The point though is to point and shoot not to aim and shoot. Good post.

The British Soldier
January 2, 2006, 04:02 PM
Close quarter combat drill. I've never taken the course though. The point though is to point and shoot not to aim and shoot

I spent a sizeable chunk of my military career doing 'CQB' - Close Quarters Battle - and we were trained to always use sights; if you release a shot without them you are unlikely to achieve your objective.

I was initially taught a variation of the 'Grant-Taylor Method', which places the body in such an uncomfortable firing position that I was relieved when we started using the Weaver Stance. The fantastic point about this stance and how it develops is that we stand with the pistol at the navel, in the two handed grip; for each double tap encounter we would punch both arms out and once extended fire twice, then recover to the waist.

It does two things:

Develops fantastic muscle memory
Enables you to shoot at any point from navel to fully extended, because the pistol barrel is horizontal contstantly.

Often in CQB, targets may come up 'in your face' and you will be shooting as the pistol is coming up, but you have not yet acquired the sights.

Is that what you deem as 'Quick Kill'?

riverkeeper
January 2, 2006, 05:10 PM
British Soldier
I've included what what Robin Brown wrote about QK and omitted the intro and rifle part. Is it CQC? I suspect not as the sights are used but not in focus and distances implied are about 5ft to several times that. The sights are used, but different from what I have come across before.
CQC is a critical issue for my situation -- my experience with that is the Rentetion Positions. I need training in that for My Fair City's gang country. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191890

http://www.pointshooting.com/qk.htm

AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense
Quick Kill Shooting - By: Robin Brown - AKA - Brownie

"......QK with pistols:
Right now, I want you to try to do this.
Find a light switch across the room. Any object at about that distance will do.
Then, with the light switch or object in your view, raise your arm/hand and point your finger naturally at the object, like you are scolding a dog.
Looking at your target, you also should be able to see in your peripheral vision, the end of the finger that's pointing at it.
When you point, you naturally do not attempt to sight or aim your finger. It will be somewhat below your eye level in your peripheral vision.
Now, place the end of that finger about 2 inches below your target. Move your arm, NOT JUST THE FINGER.
Then, lower your head and try to sight along the length of it. You will be on the object.
Raise your head and you will see the end of the finger still about 2 inches below the object.
The reference point can be different depending on the person and gun being used. Many handguns have different natural pointing abilities. Just start out at 2 inches below the target initially.
If you find you are above the target when checking the finger, you may need to use three inches below, as the reference point for you initially. Conversely, if you are low, you may need to raise the reference point a little.
Once you find the reference point for you, you can point at anything using this QK technique and know that you are hitting the object automatically, and when not looking at anything but the target.
Your finger will be in your peripheral vision but not looked at.
Now go get a handgun, make sure it's empty, and do the same thing on the same object across the room. Use the end of the barrel now instead of the end of your finger.
Once you have referenced the end of the barrel about 2 inches below the target, DON'T MOVE THE GUN, and lower your head and check where the sights are pointing.
WOW-------did I just hear you say WOW?
As above, when you could see the end of the finger pointing at target in your peripheral vision while focusing on the target, you will now see the end of the barrel while looking at the target.
Once you have tweaked the reference point for that gun, you can repeat with followup shots as soon as the reference has been reacquired peripherally.
You have not looked at the gun or sights, just the target. And the gun will be about 6 inches below your eye level, more or less.
Some will achieve this immediately, while others will have issues and questions.
I hope that I have explained this well enough for most. It's much easier to show and guide one, than just describe QK.
As with most things, practice can improve performance, and the same is true with QK.
You can practice at home or on the line. Draw, raise the gun up into your peripheral vision, acquire the referenced distance from the end of the barrel to the target, and dryfire or blast it for real.
Try different distances from 3 feet to 20 yds. The reference point can and should be tweaked up or down until you know where you need to keep it at those distances with that handgun.
I've carried this knowledge of QK since 81, but have never put it out to the general public before. It works. And I suspect that many have come to the same technique with practice and shooting over time.
Brownie
..........
Mr. Brown AKA Brownie served in the United States Marine Corps from 1969-71 and holds certifications in Swat tactics and Swat Team Leader. He also was trained in counter-insurgency by General Mitchell WerBell of OSS fame. And he has overseen security operations for major corporations throughout the United States, and is a licensed private detective.
Brownie has worked for police departments as an auxiliary police officer and has received certification from the Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council. He also instructs civilians and police in advanced firearms techniques and defensive baton skills. On his last assignment he served as a defensive tactics instructor and specialized in defensive knife tactics. He looks forward to questions and discussing your defensive and training needs.
His e-mail is: arizonaqkr@yahoo.com
:)

BobK
January 2, 2006, 07:35 PM
What do I think? I think it's a load of crap. Respectfully. There are many so called "experts" out there that were "ex" this or "ex" that. Too many black ops ninja know it alls out there. Don't get suckered into this baloney. Double taps, hammers, quick kill, or whatever you choose to call it, will never be better than steady, aimed fire. Someone around here once said that every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.

I personally know of many LEO, active duty and ex military instructors, etc....
That don't know squat.

I admire and respect that you are trying to better yourself and be prepared. Please do so wisely.

Sweatnbullets
January 2, 2006, 10:51 PM
I was trained in Quick Kill (QK) by Robin Browne last October in Tucson. It is an amazing system. I was also trained in three other point shooting systems at the class, but QK is my default two handed threat focused shooting system. It extendes the range of threat focused shooting well past what is possible with Quick Fire, Fairbairn/Sykes, or Applegate methods of point shooting.

For dynamic movement, it is my opinion that QK is the absolute best option for making hits. My ability to make hits while moving dynamically has improved by leaps and bounds due to QK.

If you guys are interested, I could see if I can get Robin over here. He always has time for those that want to take there skills to the next level.

Az Qkr
January 3, 2006, 02:54 PM
Sweatnbullets was kind enough to send me this link, thanks SNB.

riverkeeper, if you have any questions shoot me an email. Happy to assist you in any way I can with your endeavor to explore this system.

BobK: Is that anyway to talk about someone whose background you know nothing about, ? :D

Relative QK, interesting you have such strong convictions and yet know absolutely nothing about that which you speak. :rolleyes:

You know what they say about opinions.

Robin Brown

Sweatnbullets
January 3, 2006, 11:17 PM
riverkeeper, here is a link to the review of the course I attended in October. It starts on post #33.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45&page=2

Harley Quinn
January 4, 2006, 12:42 AM
The LE org I came from used this and a little added benefit of stepping to the left and bending at both knees, then your head is in line with the sights to continue to fire if needed for a sighted picture.

Works great and all the time you are firing and moving and hitting what you are shooting at. Like I said, have been doing this even before R.B. went into the Corps.

In fact I was showing Rich, Ashley and Johnny the way I did it. I don't believe they thought much of it, but it does work. LOL memories you have to love um...

Harley

riverkeeper
January 4, 2006, 01:37 AM
Sweatnbullets—
It was your post in early Dec that started my Googling. Also found the Army’s unavailable manual on QK on Amazon.

BobK –
Got’cha. PT Barnum was right. AND ‘There are solutions to every problem which are nice neat plausible and WRONG.’ I know, most of those crappy theoretical solutions were mine.
BUT finally at 60 most of my working solutions are empirically derived…based on the sometimes painful experiences of me or others evaluated with humility and an open mind. I wish you well.
SO based on MY future experience with QK, possibly assisted by others, I will determine if it works for me. ALL of my shooting is directed to self defense. I warm up with aligned sighted fire, transition to Front Sight Press also at 5, 10, 20 and 40 feet. Then finish with my version of unsighted fire at 5 and 10 feet.
QK may or may not join my quiver but based on its apparent speed and naturalness, it does at first glance seem to fill a useful niche.
I do not agree with those who train exclusively with one method…..In order to excel at any sport I think it is important to add some breath to depth of ability (not to confusion of course).

Mr Brown—
Thank you for sharing the QK info on the web. It was smooth and almost scary Zen shooting experience. I read your web about 2 weeks before shooting and after re-reading assume correction could be ‘seeing’ less of the barrel and/or dropping the POA and more experience with it.

Spouse works for one of the airlines serving Tucson so I may get to one of your seminars if things progress…I’m esp. interested in shooting while moving because almost all of my ‘close encounters’ involve 2-3 bg’s and would require movement for evasion and to cover. The contents of your classes I note cover this.

Az Qkr
January 4, 2006, 12:21 PM
Harley:

Semper Fi

riverkeeper:

You are welcome sir. Others have mentioned the zen of this as well. QK opens the door to ones natural abilities and so it appears to be as you described to many. The mind is the limiting factor.

If you get out this way, shoot me an email, we'll hook up if you like.

Robin Brown

OBIWAN
January 4, 2006, 12:55 PM
I fully endorse body indexed sighting for contact distances

But IMHO....the different "systems" mentioned all strike me as being a little like diet plans

People looking for something easier...not really better

YMMV

Harley Quinn
January 4, 2006, 03:08 PM
I have used this exclusivly with the handgun and shotgun at nothing much further then 10 yds. But here is the deal if you are hitting good at 10 yards the bullets and the buckshot do not know they are going to travel further on the same course and hit very well at 40 and 50 yds, they just do.

(do this set up your target at 10 yds, (paper) go out 40 or 50 yds and set up another big sheet of cardboard or plywood behind the target, shoot at the 10 yrd target slow and steady best you can do)..Check it out it is fun to see what happens...

I think it is a good system, I practice it. I also shot with sights slow and steady with both the left and right hand hold, both double handed and single handed. I am not a trick shooter by any means. But I am an expert shot and have trained many to shoot well.

Quite a bit of the tech requires some inate ability, and the ability grows with practice and confidence.

Like I said I do other types of shooting also. But in a quick shooting situation I am sure my reflexes will do the same as they did 30 years ago when I was not sure if I needed it on a daily bases or not. The reason I still keep up the practice.
Some might consider it insecurity, I just figure 'habit and practice' ( I enjoy shooting) if I need it, it will be there.
Like a good knife, when you need it, it is nice to have it in your pocket.

R. B.
Semper Fi.
Keep up the good work, you are saving lives.

Harley

Az Qkr
January 4, 2006, 04:10 PM
Harley Quinn:

Right back at ya sir and thanks for your thoughts.

I'm heading to Arlington National Cemetery sometime next week. One of my dear friends in the SF 5th group passed while kicking doors in Iraq on Dec 30. :(

The QK system is being recognized within certain communities and it is my goal to bring this to as many who may need the skills as possible after having kept the knowledge to myself for 24 years. Time to pass on the knowledge, I'm not getting any younger here.:eek:

http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/pointvsight.htm

Robin Brown

Tokamak
January 4, 2006, 04:19 PM
It works.

I pointed my hand gun towards and below a light switch (empty gun, no one behind the wall) and when I shifted my head to be in line with the sights it was right on! I did it with a door knob further away: again, right on.

I am going to try this at the range with live ammo and see how accurate it is. Thanks for the info.

OBIWAN
January 4, 2006, 05:48 PM
You can do the same thing with your finger

Doesn't mean you should take your sites off your weapon;)

Sweatnbullets
January 4, 2006, 09:45 PM
Obiwan, that would be ridiculous and there is no one here suggesting that you do such a ridiculous thing. This is not a threat focus-vs-sight focus discussion, this is a threat focus along with sight focus discussion.

My default course of action will always be to get to the sights. But, I have found time and time again, in FOF, in myself and all of my "frontsight only" training buddies, that when the action is fast and close and the urgency is high, *most* people will become threat focused.

The availability of FOF due to the influx of the airsoft gun has opened the vast majority of the firearms trainers eyes to the importance and absolute need for threat focus training. This is no longer a square range world. Training is against live, reacting, moving and attacking adversaries. What was once seen as adequete training has been replaced by reality.

Reality is that you may not be able to get to your sights and to be a truely well rounded shooter you need threat focus skills out past contact distances.

steve2267
January 5, 2006, 11:53 AM
Quote:

I suspect not as the sights are used but not in focus and distances implied are about 5ft to several times that. The sights are used, but different from what I have come across before.


One does not use the sights when using QK properly. One does pick up the weapon in your peripheral vision, but the sights are not used. In fact, at Sightless in Tucson in October 2005... all students shot Brownie's sightless 1911 -- there were no sights on the pistol whatsoever! And every student hit the target with that sightless 1911.

So, if one is performing QK correctly, no sights are required -- they are NOT used.

Do I advocate removing sights from one's sidearm? Hell NO! But since QK is deadly accurate out to 10 yards for most people (all the students at Sightless in Tucson were putting rounds on steel torso-sized targets at 10 yards using QK), and I think I can use it out to 15-17 yards with a little more practice... and since the vast majority of all armed confrontations occur within 7 yards, I think QK would benefit ALL shooters. Heck, I think most practice and training should be with QK inside 10 yards, and then a few magazines of sighted fire every practice session at various distance.

Sights have their uses... but after training at the hands of a Point Shooting Master like Brownie... I think handgun sight use is not nearly as important as most people think they are.

OBIWAN
January 5, 2006, 11:55 AM
Oh...yes......I have seen point shooting advocates with no sites on their pistols...maybe nobody here....

"Reality is that you may not be able to get to your sights and to be a truely well rounded shooter you need threat focus skills out past contact distances"

Good for you....but.......

That is not my reality;)

Beyond contact distances I will bring the weapon to my visual plane to make the shot. I may not have perfect sight alignment, but I will have a visual reference that includes the weapon

As Jeff Gonzales puts it, using the sights gives you an "error box" that makes it likely that you will still hit your target regardless of all the things you do wrong because of stress, etc.

Too many of the "trendy" approaches to fighting (not shooting) seem to be based on the premise that you won't be able to do it right.

That is what training is for

Harley Quinn
January 5, 2006, 12:56 PM
As I wrote to you and others it has been around for a long time.

R.B. Has also related to everyone that it has been around for quite some time.
I was trained in it in the 60's and 70's by the LE Org. that I was with.
It is a good 'great' tech and it is very effective at the ranges I have been talking about.

Like you have said though, training and continuing practice is the key to it. And any other type of self defense...
Practice and train. This one is a real good tool to put in your git kit.

I believe you are very correct when you advise to get your sights on them fast.
But while doing that, a few down stream with this tech maybe the difference between life and death.
For the person who use's it as a tech (tool) for their defense.

Harley

OBIWAN
January 5, 2006, 05:54 PM
Oh...by trendy I didn't mean new...just ....trendy

The names change but the song remains the same....remember fistfire:confused:

And many of the approaches are very very close to sighted fire
(ie: the weapon is in the visual plane ) We can talk for ours about target focus/weapon focus/soft-hard focus/hocus focus

But if you are standing in a weaver/iso stance with the weapon at eye level.....that is sighted fire in my book...which won't ...unfortunately sell books:D

And as I said before ...what I call body indexed shooting has its' place....and sighted fire is approporiate for everything else.IMHO


Where I generally see the true point shooting (hip shooting) advocates flounder is when they have to make a longer range shot under truly sub-optimum conditions. Mess with their stance and they can't get "in the zone"

Provide them with a very obscured target ...same problem...generally

Sweatnbullets
January 5, 2006, 10:51 PM
I would not use the word trendy. I would go with the word timely. Threat focus shooting systems always come back into use whenever we are at war. The neccesity to make hits on the fly without taking the time for sights verification is an absolute must in combat and once we are at war, people always scramble back to the threat focus systems that were born out of combat.

The "frontsight only" trend is a peace time trend, born out of competition. It is a trend that is popular when there is no one shooting back at the users.

Of course our disagreement is purely semantics. It is obvious by your posts that you use threat focus techniques, but you perfer to not call it what it is. That's cool, call it whatever you want, but don't use threat focus techniques and disparage it at the same time. That sends a very confusing message to those that have not closed their minds to threat focus shooting.

You have obviously made up your mind, and there is nothing I can say to change that. I have known many people just like you, many of them are my close friends. Talk will never change anything with people such as this. That is why I put my closed minded friends into FOF. There is nothing more fun than taking a "sights only" guy and showing him a world he never knew existed. Watching their eyes turn as wide as saucers, totally fix on me, and seeing them shoot from positions well below their line of sight, as I go on the attack.

After the confrontation, they know what I was talking about, they know that they were wrong. As I walk back to them, you can just see the embarassment. In a very polite and caring voice I ask them "what did you see?" This is where I usually get a "F--- you!":D Then I teach them some threat focus shooting skills.

superman
January 5, 2006, 11:09 PM
When your in a real shoot situation, your not going to use your sights, you might as well file them off. Most shootings are 3 to 10 yards and at that range your going to point shoot, and your not going to place every bullet in the kill zone. Take for example a recent shooting in my area. 54 round went down range from 4 different officers. 3 found thier mark. These officers were using pistols and AR's. Of course the three that did hit the subject fatally wounded him. I seriosly doubt these officers used thier sights. They were being fired at and i'm sure they just pointed and sprayed as many rounds as possibly.

I train with my sights, but i spend more time point shooting. As long as I can place all my rounds in a man shaped target, I am happy. Remember three shots in tight group is not going to stop a threat as quick as several rounds hitting several different organs.

Good luck and be safe.

Harley Quinn
January 5, 2006, 11:38 PM
One in the Liver. One in the Spleen. One in the Heart. Those are a few organs that really count.

I remember a shooting where the first round caught the guy in the pubic bone he doubled up and the second one went in a lung, the liver and a kidney, slight angle across the body. Expired at the scene.

Some are not as good, like 8 shots fired and no hit. Susp started screaming don't shoot, don't shoot. Since they could not hit the guy they quit and he gave up.

Sometimes you are lucky and don't have to kill someone. Paper work is hell and the monday morning quarterbacking will make you very cautious, so cautious you might not shoot the next time. Pretty scary when your partner just watchs and returns not one round. Happens quite a bit.

Some are not prone to shoot others are. The trick is you don't know till it counts.

Harley

Sweatnbullets
January 6, 2006, 12:12 AM
Superman and Harley, those are perfect examples of why people need threat focus skills. If you can not get to the sights and you do not have threat focus skills, you will revert to spray and pray.

Spray and pray is not a threat focus skill. It is what a "sights only" guy will do when the reality sets in that they do not have the necessary skills to make the hits, while being focused on the person that is trying to take their life.

Az Qkr
January 6, 2006, 12:17 AM
"The names change but the song remains the same....remember fistfire"

Yes I do, thats not the same song you are listening to here though. That statement would lead me to believe you do lack the understanding necessary to hold an intelligent conversation on the subject of QK or threat focused methodologies and tend to lump them all together.

"But if you are standing in a weaver/iso stance with the weapon at eye level.....that is sighted fire in my book."

And if the weapon is at that level, you probably should be using the sights.

What about not having sights on the gun and the gun 4-8 inches below eye level and still making the hits? Still sighted fire to you?

"Where I generally see the true point shooting (hip shooting) advocates flounder is when they have to make a longer range shot under truly sub-optimum conditions. Mess with their stance and they can't get "in the zone"

My guess?, You don't know any true threat focused advocates nor have seen any use their skills.

Any "true point shooting", as you put it [ from the hip ] will only be used when it is appropriate to do so. Which leads me back to having a hard time believing you have seen true pointshooters anywhere if that is what you actually saw someone attempting to do from the hip.

My guess?, You don't know any true threat focused advocates nor have seen any use their skills.

"Floundering" is usually caused by a lack of understanding when and where certain techniques would be beneficial on the street in a defensive situaion involving a firearm, and using something at an inappropriate time when another technique is the correct solution.

"Provide them with a very obscured target ...same problem...generally"

Thats not the time to use hip shooting.

"Reality is that you may not be able to get to your sights and to be a truely well rounded shooter you need threat focus skills out past contact distances"

Good for you....but.......

That is not my reality"

It would seem, it's not your reality because your opinion is based on presumptions and not any real experience in threat focused methods out there.

No one is advocating not using the sights when appropriate. No one is advocating removing the sights. No one is advocating that sights are not a necessity at times and should not be used when possible.

Your statements seem to counter point comments not made or advocated by anyone here.

True threat focused shooters [ what you call point shooters ] know both how to use their sights effectively, how to use the tool in their hand without making use of sights to get hits, and when the situation dictates they do not have to, all based on time and distance requirements.

In your own words, "That is what training is for"

Robin Brown

riverkeeper
January 6, 2006, 02:55 AM
Steve2276 quoted me:
“I suspect not as the sights are used but not in focus and distances implied are about 5ft to several times that. The sights are used, but different from what I have come across before.”

Thanks for the helpful clarifying edit comment -- substitute ‘barrel is’ for ‘sights are’. It was actually more like ‘barrel awarness.’ My hasty words got in the way of communication.

The snub and I will play this tune again in a few days. My only concern about QK is that it may degrade sight aligned and FSP action, but I really doubt it. Too many personal sports experiences suggest otherwise.

‘Four legs good, two legs baaaaad.'
;)

Harley Quinn
January 6, 2006, 09:43 AM
I like to go to the range alone, I focus, I shoot, I practice.
I is not we and you are, alone. ( I said that just a moment ago on another thread but it is true...to the bone.)

Sports and all is fine, fire teams are great. But in that moment of time and truth, it is you and your ability.

Brings to mind Sgt. Ralph Gillete RIP. He was one tough hombre and died of natural causes. A True LAPD legend. I am honered to have worked with him, he was one with nerves of steel and basic raw courage.

Harley

k9lwt
January 6, 2006, 09:58 PM
I am definitely going to have to try this ASAP.

Sweatnbullets
January 6, 2006, 10:46 PM
If you have any questions at all k9lwt, you know how to get a hold on me. ;)

Here is a little something I wrote up once I had the training and the knowledge.

Breaking it Down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Threat focus shooting is something that is best done without thinking about it. It is a technique that is best shown, then done. That is the truth of the matter, but because of this it is often seen as some sort of parlor trick or worse, something that is not accurate or dependable. I would like to take an approach to this that I have not seen before. That approach being, to try to break down why threat focus shooting actually works. By breaking it down to it's "bare bones" we could take some of the mystique away.

There are many elements that go into accurate threat focused shooting and by knowing exactly what those elements are we will see that we are actually using a very well developed aiming system. By knowing that it is a well developed aiming system, the confidence in the technique will soar and when the time comes that you need it, it will be there like a trusted friend.

First lets look at the elements of sighted fire.

(1)Kinesthetic alignment

(2)Sight alignment

(3)Sight picture

This is a very simple and highly effective form of sighting in. But it is also something that is, in the most part, done on a conscious level.


Now let us look at the elements of threat focus shooting.

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use the nose index.

(6) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(7) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(8) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

(9) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(10) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

When broken down into it's elements it hardly looks mystical anymore. It seems to be a highly developed aiming system. Another thing to take into consideration is that almost all of this is done on a subconscious level. These are elements that you do not have to think about. That is why threat focused shooting is best done without thinking about it. Once you know the elements, trained with the elements, it all comes together in a micro second with zero conscious thought. This is why threat focused shooting excels in dynamic confrontations. It is a natural human response.

Thoughts, comments?

Skyguy
January 7, 2006, 11:24 AM
Thoughts, comments?

My "thoughts and "comments" are that you guys are lagging behind the self defense shooting curve.
Willing to argue minutiae, but hardly with cutting edge ideas....especially the guys with the old eyes.

Why am I such a proficient self defense shooter?

Because, with regular combined practice and surprise targets, I point shoot out to about 15 feet, laser sight shoot out to about 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances that I would tend not to engage unless I had no other choice.

Recreational/game shooters are concerned with rigid form, practiced stances, breathing and other trivial details that have little to do with sudden self defense scenarios that could likely involve dodging bullets.

Point shooters/laser sight shooters - are concerned with getting as many hits on target as possible, day or night, in the shortest amount of time and even in compromised shooting positions. (e.g. on one's side, back, belly...around, under and over obstacles and simply 'shooting the laser dot')

So, let's all get on the edu-train and get our tactics up to 21st century speed. Live and learn, fellas!

Y'all can start here:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

.

Sweatnbullets
January 7, 2006, 12:23 PM
Skyguy, Your statements are based on ignorance. You have no idea who I am, what I do, or what I've done. You seem to think that you are head and shoulders above everyone else with your little regimen. That makes you appear to be very arrogant.

Why not try to shed your ignorance by asking some people some questions before you start making asinine statements, since you have no idea what you are talking about.

Skyguy
January 7, 2006, 12:47 PM
Sweatnbullets, Your statements are based on ignorance.

You have no idea who I am, what I do, or what I've done. You seem to think that you are head and shoulders above everyone else with your little regimen. That makes you appear to be very arrogant.

Why not try to shed your ignorance by asking some people some questions before you start making asinine statements, since you have no idea what you are talking about.

Go reread what I wrote, learn a little....and don't let your ego get the best of ya!

Sweatnbullets
January 7, 2006, 01:26 PM
"My "thoughts and "comments" are that you guys are lagging behind the self defense shooting curve.
Willing to argue minutiae, but hardly with cutting edge ideas....especially the guys with the old eyes."

A broad brush statement (you guys.) That insult peoples intelligence (lagging behind the self defense curve.) That shows your arrogance (hardly with cutting edge ideas.) Then back into ignorance (especially with old eyes.)

Three of the four quotes speak for themselves. The fourth about cutting edge is ridiculous. It is my opinion that almost everything there is to know about fighting (including gunfighting) has already been known a long time ago. Cutting edge has just been taking old techniques and ideas and repackaging and renaming them.

If you think that all we (you guys) do is point shoot, you are seriously mistaken.

Since you think I did not understand your post....that is probably because it was not written well. Did you not just insult "you guys?"

How about you reread your post and clarify exactly what you are trying to say without the broad brush approach.

Capt Charlie
January 7, 2006, 01:41 PM
Gentlemen, keep it civil and impersonal, please! This is a good thread, but I'll be forced to Quick Kill it if the personal attacks continue ;) .

riverkeeper
January 7, 2006, 02:53 PM
Skyguy—
The video on CT showed some great and difficult shooting by what appear be fine instructors.

A few months ago after messing with CT on the store’s blue plastic faux handgun decided to wait some more. It ‘seemed’ FSP and even sight alignment could be achieved as fast in the store, BUT WITHOUT ANY TRAINING, ANY IDEA OF WHAT I WAS DOING OR SPECIFIC EXPERIENCE. It was of course not a fair test and the advantages of CT during dark situations, strong hand injuries and impossible body positions are persuasive.

I’d already decided to rent a CT handgun tomorrow at the range as well as do some real QK drill – off hand, awkward positions etc. My assumptions is that after some intelligent practice, CT might ‘shine’.

In order to get the CT handgun into a shooting position, a point shoot/semi sighted -type presentation initially seems appropriate – tho’ anything that works….works. Any quick suggestions or tips?

BTW – it also appears that QK can be ‘done on the run’, in tough positions and in almost dark conditions….tho’ probably not as accurately... I do not know.

Thanks for your contribution.

Ronny
January 7, 2006, 02:56 PM
I believe that all aspects of shooting must be embraced in order to reach the fullest level; there is no one magic technique superior to everything. There are times when using sights is more effective, and there are times when pointshooting is more effective. Learn to use both. It's no different than when people ask "should I have one eye open or both eyes open when engaging a target."

The ability to adapt quickly to a situation and respond with the best technique quickly and efficiently is at the heart of all schools of shooting. We'd be better served to humble ourselves and try instead to understand the benefits of all techniques instead of degrading one over the other. Understanding comes only through experience; experience comes only through practice.

Theories do not suffice in combat.

Skyguy
January 7, 2006, 06:07 PM
Any quick suggestions or tips?

Yes. Get a CT Lasergrip on your gun....and you'll never look back.

They're in use by the military and many, many agencies. Lasergrips are the new technology that works.

Of course, it's important that you be proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting, but the Lasergrips save a lot of time/money spent on redundant training that differs in name only.

This will help with understanding:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv


.

Az Qkr
January 7, 2006, 09:16 PM
"with regular combined practice and surprise targets, I point shoot out to about 15 feet, laser sight shoot out to about 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances that I would tend not to engage unless I had no other choice."

Interestingly noted above.

"Regular combined practice" to be able to pointshoot to 15 feet, laser shoot to 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances you would not normally engage unless left no choice.

Had a dentist in today from Tucson for QK training. In two hours he was good to go to 30 feet without sights using my sightless 45 gov model. Hits were at 90% or better at that distance.

The truck was 46 feet from the plates we were banging and on several reloads of mags, he wanted to try it from there. 90% or better from the truck as well, with a gun that had NO sights on it after the 3rd hour of training [ the confidence level Sweatnbullets mentions as #10 was increasing exponentially at that point for him ].

Two torso plates were being hit with mundane repeatability at 3 hours from 15-46 feet by this guy who I considered a "fair" shooter at best.
Fair in estimation as I had to adjust his handhold, and trigger control before he could progress to where he was at today with me.

Not a bad thing, just something he needed to work on and be tweeked as he had not had any formal instruction in any handgun previously.

Then I worked him on hip shooting at 6-8 feet from the draw on the two plates. He needed some time to figure this out but in another hour he was at about 75-80% success drawing to one and swinging to the other, staying at the hip.

"even in compromised shooting positions."

Interestingly noted above.

The last part of the day he was shooting behind his back without turning around, and learned how to turn the 45 into a slow full auto emptying the mag quickly.

We got back to my house to ungear and clean the guns and I discovered he had a laser in the left rubber grip panel of his defender 45. Had not seen it all day until he lit it up on the garage wall checking/verifying the QK technique with the laser.

I asked him which he thought would be faster and he stated he was faster today with QK than he ever had been with the laser. He also stated the laser was very hard to see during the day and he had decided to use his sights during the day and the laser in low light if needed.

So, here we have a fair shooter, once corrected in handhold and trigger control who was hitting 90% or better out to 30 feet in hours. Then hitting 90% or better at 46 feet in another hour when his confidence in his ability to hit without sights had increased.

Lasers can fail, they are mechanical devices. One can become dependant on them to the detriment of actual skills building in some areas.

IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light, but certainly not any more useful in total darkness than iron sights.

They are not something I need to rely on past a certain distance, say 15 feet. They are not something I need to rely on to 30 feet, nor even 60 feet [ admittedly I have a lot of practice at this in the last 24 years of using QK ].

Lasers, good. Good crutches, like sights. There is a time and place for sights, and a time to go to guns without them. Those who have the knowledge of QK have no need for sights or lasers to distances others may deem impossible.

Look to the student today, in 4 hours he was 90% or better out to 46 feet. I was surprised, not because QK worked out to that distance reliably [ which I know it does ], but surprised that his "fair" skills in weapon handling could be brought to that proficiency level in half a day.

Learning to rely and use your own skills seems to me to be more reliable than a mechanical device with all it's inherent liability of not being there when you need it.

Murphy follows us everywhere. The less one relies on anything other than their own skills and training, the harder it is for Murphy to interject himself at the most inopportune time.

When yours or anothers life hangs in the balance, would you rather rely on your own skills and training to survive or the mechanical device of a laser which you may not be able to "see" when you have trained to need it?

Afterall, one lives or dies by the choices they make in life. Choose your paths wisely folks.

Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 7, 2006, 11:40 PM
You know guys, truth be told they're all just tools for each individual's old bag of tricks. People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience - that you can learn a little something applicable from everything, and you'll end up using all of it, in one form or another, at some point.
There is no good, better, best -- except in theory and conversation. There is only accurate and inaccurate, hit and miss; it's all about training, experience, and application. What works for one may not always work for another, and those people who won't admit any other theory's validity are going to wish you had more tools in the bag if you ever find yourself in a nasty situation.

For those of you who discount laser-sights and other technology, remember that technology is a good thing, especially if it enhances a shooter's skill. But a shooter should never forsake training and fundamentals for technology..a mistake of novice shooters.

The book is a great place to start, but it can never tell you what's best all the time in every situation.

Just my two cents.

(sorry for the mulitple posts...my broswer freaked out)

Az Qkr
January 7, 2006, 11:54 PM
"For those of you who discount laser-sights and other technology, remember that technology is a good thing, especially if it enhances a shooter's skill."

Thats exactly what I was saying here:

"IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light,":D

"But a shooter should never forsake training and fundamentals for technology..a mistake of novice shooters."

"Thats exactly what I was saying here:

"Lasers can fail, they are mechanical devices. One can become dependant on them to the detriment of actual skills building in some areas.":D

Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 7, 2006, 11:56 PM
What I was saying was:

If the shoe fits.... :)

Skyguy
January 8, 2006, 12:03 AM
Robin,

Nothing personal...and no offense meant, but your post seems to be a crock of marketing in the pursuit of 'students'.

In my post I clearly said...it's important that you be proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting, but the Lasergrips save a lot of time/money spent on redundant training that differs in name only.

So, let me put it this way: once a shooter becomes proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting....the laser shows exactly where the bullet will hit when fired from any angle or position. Period.

No sight, method, stance or voodoo is needed. Just put the dot on the target and that's where the bullet goes.

Bottom line for me is that I'll stick to my method of combined point shooting, laser sights and sights.....because it works.

Az Qkr
January 8, 2006, 12:13 AM
Skyguy:

Nothing personal taken.

I don't need to market myself, read the threads from SNB and Steve, students who now have the knowledge of what it is I can do to bring anyone [ not just students ] to a level of skills without using anything but their natural ability.

"So, let me put it this way: once a shooter becomes proficient in the basic fundamentals of shooting....the laser shows exactly where the bullet will hit when fired from any angle or position. Period."

And of course I said the same thing here:

""IMO, lasers are useful training aid in the development of ones handhold, trigger control and eye/hand coordination. Useful perhaps in low light"

I think we are on the same page here.:D

Bottom line for me is that I'll stick to my method of combined threat focused shooting and sights.....because it has worked for 25 years as well.

If I was marketing myself, I would have started the thread here, I'm only here at the behest of one of my students to answer questions the thread starter had as I AM the one who would be able to answer anything about QK.

Robin Brown

Sweatnbullets
January 8, 2006, 12:38 AM
It has become obvious that I misunderstood skyguys first post. The first paragraph really threw me off after he quoted me. It felt like a personal attack, but I guess I was wrong.

My apologies to all, especially skyguy, and capt charlie.

matthew temkin
January 8, 2006, 10:00 AM
The saga continues....
Hey Obwain, long time no see.
SOS....

Skyguy
January 8, 2006, 12:39 PM
Lasergrips deliver instant and accurate target acquisition for all shooters and from awkward and compromised positions.

They are now widely accepted by the military and hundreds of advanced LE agencies as a very useful and effective tactical sighting system both indoors and out, dusk, day and night.

Lasergrips own the night.
They easily excell over iron and tritium sights and over sightless techniques in low light and no light situations. They function very well in daylight.

FYI.....This is a defense training/information video:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

.

Az Qkr
January 8, 2006, 01:00 PM
Skyguy:

We're all very happy that you like the CT lasers on your firearms and find value in their use.

"no light situations"? Nothing short of NV equipment works in those conditions. If you can't see in a no light scenario, you have no business shooting someone. It's called target identification/verification by most, and your laser will not identify or verify anything as a threat.

Nothing personal...and no offense meant, but your posts seem to be a crock of marketing in the pursuit of 'convincing people they need lasers on their firearms':D

Robin Brown

superman
January 8, 2006, 01:33 PM
I have a CT laser on my sig 226. The really only thing that i have found is that its a great intimidation tool. When a suspect sees that on his chest, they know where that bullet is going to hit. Most of the time they get thier hands in the air or fall face first.

I have found that target aquisition is a bit slower than conventional point shooting. I focused more on the laser than the target (threat). I actually shot a bit off when used on the range. Dont get me wrong bullet placement was perfect but i started to rush shots. I finally turned it off and thats how I shoot at the range- point fire and iron sight fire. I leave the laser off. I do keep it on for patrol.

Skyguy
January 8, 2006, 02:18 PM
Robin,

I wish you had gone ahead and informed yourself with the four informative links that were provided.
It never hurts to learn more about new tactics and technology.

Everything I posted is absolute truth...no rumors or disinformation.
I'll include the links again so that any others interested can verify my claims.

One other thing; I never said 'absolute total darkness'. Even night vision technology is a poor identifier
between the enemy or friendlies.
I said 'no light' situations....And as an expert, you very well know the difference.

Like others, I've learned that it's tough to convince old timers to accept or try new technology
and new methods, but like computers and the 'net, sooner or later, most everyone figures it out.

My best to you and your students.

This will help with understanding:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/5things.pdf

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

This is a defense training/information video:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

Skyguy
January 8, 2006, 02:26 PM
I finally turned it off and thats how I shoot at the range- point fire and iron sight fire. I leave the laser off.
I do keep it on for patrol.

I can only read that as when your life is on the line and there's a good probability of low light scenarios...you opt for the laser sight.
Good thinking!

superman
January 8, 2006, 02:38 PM
yes your right, I have used it when my life was on the line. Any tool that can help is a great advantage. What I am saying is that I dont rely on a battery powered sight. If my laser should quit working i want to know that I am profficient with my siron sights and will be able to stop any threat. I think everyone should have a set. There affordable and fun to shoot when plinking. I just don't want people to use them as a crutch, thinking that there laser is going to be dead on every time. its just like a scope if it gets bumped it will be off. Practice with the laser from time to time, but just make sure that your ability to use sights is dead on.

I am not knocking their accuracy either. I was able to shoot a small propane tank at 100 yards with my sig using my laser. There was really no point in that last statement just bragging, pretty proud of that shot.

Az Qkr
January 8, 2006, 02:40 PM
"I have found that target aquisition is a bit slower than conventional point shooting."

Thats a fact sir. I hesitated to say as much in my last post for fear it would start others on a path to denial of such, which may not be in the best interest of the thread here. Possibly confusing some with less experience in threat focused shooting management.

One student at the "Sightless in Tucson" event this last Oct., an older gentlemen who has become a friend, had used a laser on his snub for some time and was enamored with it for getting good hits.

After the training, he found he was getting two solid hits before he could find the laser on the threat. He dumped the laser use unless in low light, it's not as fast in threat management for him any longer.

Skyguy: "I said 'no light' situations....And as an expert, you very well know the difference."

No light to me means no light, low light means the same, low light. In fact I've shot blacklight matches where you could not use anything but irons and no tritium/ns's were allowed.

The gun could not be seen in your hand at the shooting station but the targets at 50 feet were illiminated with blacklights which had their outlines painted with luminescent marker, dimly glowing under the blacklight.

If there had been no light no one could shoot at all, the gun and target would both be impossible to see. If you didn't mean absolutely no light by your no light statement, we have come to agreement again. :D

Thanks for the well wishes sir.

Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 8, 2006, 07:04 PM
I have a CT laser on my sig 226. The really only thing that i have found is that its a great intimidation tool. When a suspect sees that on his chest, they know where that bullet is going to hit. Most of the time they get thier hands in the air or fall face first.

I agree with superman....it's a VERY effective intimidation tool...as effective as racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun.

Target acquisition is a bit slower if you don't practice lining up the laser with peripheral vision, else you tend to focus on the red dot to make sure it's center mass before focusing on the target itself. I have found that this is mostly a problem with people who keep the lasers active even when they are moving or scanning for a target (i.e. the red dot exists before the target does).

Of course, like always, everything is subject to how you practice.

As for how the military/LEO use laser sights...they don't keep them on for long periods of time. Most of the tactical lasers they use are turned on by an actuator on the grips so that they are active only when they're needed. It's just not too smart to keep the thing on all the time, especially if you're in a no-light/low-light situation.
Besides, as a civilian, if you're going to survive criminal or civil litigation you had better be using a tactical flashlight in no-light/low-light. The red dot won't 'identify' anything.

Sweatnbullets
January 8, 2006, 10:11 PM
I admit, I'm not to big on hardware (gear) I'm a software (training) kind of guy. I only own guns and gear that fits a niche, in me and my wives self defense plan. That is a total of seven guns and the gear that supports those guns.

My software applies to each of these guns. I could pick each one up and effeciently use the training I have recieved without the expense of attaching a lazer device on each of my guns.

I paid a one time only, nominal fee to Robin Brown to learn Quick Kill. That fee covers the skills to pick up any of my guns and apply QK at logical distances, accurately, and effectively in all lighting conditions. The training covers my handguns, my shotguns, and my rifles. I will own QK for the rest of my life.

I will take the money I saved on needless hardware and put it towards more software and ammo for that training.

It is MHO that you should save your money...put it to use bettering yourself....do not become reliant on an unnecessary mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it. When it comes to saving my life or the lives of my loved ones, I'm going to invest and put trust in me, not some unnecessary mechanical device.

As always YMMV!:D

Skyguy
January 9, 2006, 01:13 PM
It is MHO that you should save your money...put it to use bettering yourself....do not become reliant on an unnecessary mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it.

Just so you know; a firearm is 'also' a "mechanical device that may not be there or may not work when you really need it."
LOL

Anyway, your method is pointshooting....plain and simple. I'm very familiar with that technique. I still use that technique and it is no more than what I was taught years ago in my Army AB training.

Confidence and fidelity to a self defense/shooting method is important, but it would be a benefit to leave your mind open to the latest technologies and techniques.
The Army/military/spec ops use lasers, hundreds of LE agencies use lasers, afficionados use lasers and regular folks use lasers.
Technology is on the move. Stuck in the past is not cool.

If accuracy is important, it certainly helps to have a laser sight for shots out past 15-20 feet. It's real easy...put the dot on the target from any awkward or compromised position and that is exactly where the bullet goes.

If Murphy's law appears, revert to your fundamental training; sights.
With pointshooting, if you're out of belly gun range and you're in the dusk or dark you are screwed .

Lasers rule the night!

Az Qkr
January 9, 2006, 01:50 PM
"With pointshooting, if you're out of belly gun range and you're in the dusk or dark you are screwed."

This assumption/statement is not entirely correct Skyguy.

I carry a tritium front sight on my g17, no tritium rear sight. It is very easy to know where the end of the barrel is by seeing the front sight glow and using QK out to distances past 30 feet at dusk.

In the dark [ not totally without some ambient light ], the tritium always lets me know where I am at and can easily be superimposed in the peripheral vision onto any threat as well. QK utilizes a reference point from the end of the barrel in relation to the threat, if you can see any threat [ even a shadowy figure ] and can see the end of the barrel, they are owned anytime you choose to do so, as long as you have ID'd the potential as something that needs shooting.

I agree lasers have their place, but they are limited in scope to certain circumstances. Nothing owns the night but night vision. My m14 with anpvs4 really owns the night.:D

To own the night, one needs to "see".

Relative your being familiar with pointshooting [ "that technique" ], I'm not sure what you actually mean by that. There are 3, perhaps four known effective pointshooting techniques which have their own unique methodologies. "that technique", doesn't tell me which methodology you are using when you do pointshoot.

Robin Brown

Ronny
January 9, 2006, 02:21 PM
Question here not related to the flame war in this thread but:

In an absolute darkness environment where neither you or your enemy can see each other, wouldn't the BG be able to see the laser being emitted from the device on your gun? I understand that it's pressure activated, but if it's pitch black and I don't know the location of my enemy, my grip is going to be solid on my gun. In the event I trip over something, I don't want to drop my gun.

As I understand it, tracer rounds "point both ways" in combat. How is it any different with a laser device? The laser would illuminate both the target and the point of origin.

Yes, I know the laser doesn't look like a thin red line in mid-air.

I'm not arguing for or against the device, but I think that a compromised position is a big danger to be considered in this scenario and should be considered in all possible engagements.

Az Qkr
January 9, 2006, 02:37 PM
Ronny:

No flame war I'm aware of:D

Just a discussion on the merits [ or demerits ] of various shooting methodologies and devices.;)

Differences of opinions will always be present if there are two people involved in a discusion of any kind. Those opinions can be based on ones knowledge, training and/or experiences or a lack thereof.

Robin Brown

OBIWAN
January 9, 2006, 03:16 PM
Mr. Temkin.....Long Time indeed.....couldn't agree more;) SOS

But the names keep changing...so it seems like progress:D

I have it on good authority that Matt is one of those people that actually can "point shoot" and do it well.

Where we differ (politely) is on whether it has a place at longer distances

Where we agree wholeheartedly is that pont shooting has been around for a long , long time...but everybody acts like they invented it this week!

And where the whole discussion (always) falls apart is on the definitions

I , for one, consider point shooting to be along the lines of the speed-rock (shooting from retention position) kind of thing

To those that would say I am wrong, misguided, uninformed, etc....I would say....that one of us sure is!

IMHO stopping with the pistol just out of actual sight alignment (yes, even 8" out) is not really "point shooting"...but then again...I feel that my shooting is threat focused even when my pistols sights are aligned

I can line myself up and close my eyes and sink a 3 point shot...almost every time....just by feel/muscle memory.....but I am not going to run out and give basketball clinics touting my breakthrough 3pointshooting method.

(I am no more or less basket focused just because my eyes are closed)

To borrow a phrase from an earlier post

"People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience"

To use your sights:eek:

Az Qkr
January 9, 2006, 03:31 PM
"Where we agree wholeheartedly is that pont shooting has been around for a long , long time...but everybody acts like they invented it this week!"

I'm not aware of any instructors who act like it was invented "this week", in fact just the opposite. Could you provide us with some of these "everybody"'s names? I think you should be able to give us even two out of "everybody" to start with.

"I , for one, consider point shooting to be along the lines of the speed-rock (shooting from retention position) kind of thing"

Your "consideration" would be wrong by EVERY recorded definition for the last 50+ years, including what Matt teaches. Apparently you don't have a clue about the FAS system he works with. More uninformed opinions sir?

"I can line myself up and close my eyes and sink a 3 point shot...almost every time....just by feel/muscle memory."

Can you do it with the hoop moving? While you're moving? While both you and the hoop are moving dynamically? If not, why would anyone go to your clinic, nothing special there, all you are doing is making free throws otherwise? :D

Probably a poor analogy here to what is being discussed, but then not surprising based on an obvious lack of real knowledge, understanding or experience.

"To those that would say I am wrong, misguided, uninformed, etc....I would say....that one of us sure is!"

Indeed sir, indeed.

""People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience"

To use your sights"

Would these same people go by the name of Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, Jordan, Bryce and others? :D

I think they certainly qualify as "been there/done that", don't you?:rolleyes:

Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 9, 2006, 03:56 PM
I agree lasers have their place, but they are limited in scope to certain circumstances. Nothing owns the night but night vision. My m14 with anpvs4 really owns the night

Was never really impressed with the 4's though. However, NV monacles with an IR filter for your laser - or just an IR laser ....those rock! :) Not something that most of us have, unfortunately (for me).

Nothing that we have as civilians really owns the night. If you've never witnessed the complete unfairness of thermal imaging then you're missing out :D

EDIT:
Ronny:
As I understand it, tracer rounds "point both ways" in combat. How is it any different with a laser device? The laser would illuminate both the target and the point of origin.


1. You don't keep the freaking thing on all the time
2. If the BG is good enough to reflex shoot you in the nano-second that you should be showing your laser, then you weren't going to come out on top of that situation anyways :)

Ronny:
In an absolute darkness environment where neither you or your enemy can see each other, wouldn't the BG be able to see the laser being emitted from the device on your gun?


If there's not enough ambient light for positive ID, then why would you have your laser sight on? Additionally, if you're using a taclight, then the BG seeing your laser is a moot point.

Az Qkr
January 9, 2006, 04:07 PM
"Was never really impressed with the 4's though"

I've taken pics of people with it on a camera at 50 yds that the judge could ID as being that person in court. It works just fine for me on the 14 or with the camera attached.

Yes, there are much better gens now of course. The 4 is bulky, but it does own the night. Being a passive system, under the conditions I would use it, I would find anyone real quick using thermal or IR in my AO.

Robin Brown

leadbutt
January 9, 2006, 04:25 PM
Tut,tut, tut,,

Brownie, you know you'll never convince all the people:p


And what's this jab at us point shooters,,, slower my foot:D :D

Dave James

pickpocket
January 9, 2006, 04:25 PM
Az Qkr:
I've taken pics of people with it on a camera at 50 yds that the judge could ID as being that person in court. It works just fine for me on the 14 or with the camera attached.

ok, so you've got solid PID at approx 50 meters using a mounted anpvs 4. You apparently have one of the better maintained ANPVS 4's...lol. As it is, I wasn't commenting on the image quality....it's quite useful for S&R.

Off subject: On an M14 that doesn't provide me with a huge tactical advantage...if I've got a long-range rifle engaging at 50 meters then I have bigger problems.

On subject: At that range you're better off using a set of 7B's and the IR laser. It's accurate and exponentially quicker. Not saying it's not a useful tool...I just don't think it 'owns' :p

Az Qkr
January 9, 2006, 05:30 PM
pickpocket,

Of course it is maintained and recharged regularly as needed.:D

I only mentioned the 50 meters for the camera. I would be good to go on the rifle well past 200. The rifle probably wouldn't be out unless I had to hunt or hunker for some reason anyway.:cool:

Stay sharp

Robin

matthew temkin
January 9, 2006, 08:05 PM
Obwain...
The fact that I am no longer on your ignore list is progress enough.
Maybe we can share some range time soon and see where we stand.
In fact, I may be doing a class in Fort Collins, Colorado this March.
You may be surprised that we are doing 80% the same thing, but using different terms.
PS...I must assume that one of your friends trained with me in the past.
May I ask where and when?

Skyguy
January 9, 2006, 10:53 PM
I carry a tritium front sight on my g17, no tritium rear sight.
It is very easy to know where the end of the barrel is by seeing the front sight glow and using QK out to distances past 30 feet at dusk.

I did the same thing for years, so I definitely know it can work. Cutting edge at the time.

But once I used the lasergrips in low light/no light, I was sold. The laser can be put right on the target without ever using the tritium sight or the barrel. Reasonably, out to 150 feet or so.
You can keep your total attention and focus on the target and the red dot. It's not necessary to even look at the gun.
It is an absolutely amazing piece of technology.

I now use the combination of lasergrips for dusk to dawn, indoors and cloudy days.....and a fiber optic front sight for very bright daylight.

It works for me. Best setup I've ever had.

riverkeeper
January 10, 2006, 01:37 AM
I wanted to practice some QK and CT yesterday but like the Greeks said, 'To make the gods laugh just tell them your plans.'

Skyguy--
learned some things in your posts and on the sites you listed so that I'm also looking for a local range where the laser instructions tape is either available to view or for sale.

Virtually all of my concealed carry is in poor to fair light conditions and I've never shot in those conditions (except during & nearby but not directly in the VN war) - that will soon change.

I've mentioned my initial disappointment with CT to the extent I did a thread here in November about alternatives for dark conditions - pretty much settled on a XS Express Sight prior to this thread and my very limited QK experience. The front sight on my J frame is almost invisible in low light.

Thanks to an extraordinarily crappy opthamologist I have unusual vision issues so CT and QK are not an 'either-or' situation.... most probably a 'both' situation. I am looking forward to trying both.

I started this thread and expected mostly divergent, strong and opinionated and hopefully useful responses from P&S and sight shooters. While spirited, it was larger and mostly better than that.

Skyguy
January 10, 2006, 11:17 AM
Virtually all of my concealed carry is in poor to fair light conditions.
I have unusual vision issues so CT and QK are not an 'either-or' situation.... most probably a 'both' situation. I am looking forward to trying both.

I believe a "both situation" is the answer.

On a personal note, I use both lasergrips and point shooting. With both systems you've got all your bases covered especially in stressed out, low light/no light situations.

Target/vision issues are ended with the laser. Old eyes work again.

I fully support QK/point shooting. At eyeball range that's how we'll all shoot, so learning and practicing and ingraining the technique is a no-brainer.

But I've also learned the terrific advantages of having a laser equipped pistol. I can visually scan an area, totally focus on the target/threat, never look at my weapon, shoot from ridiculous positions....and hit wherever the red dot is.

My reasoning tells me to take every advantage available in a shootout....and the laser is a definite advantage.

Az Qkr
January 10, 2006, 03:14 PM
Good to see you here Dave.:cool:

Hope you had a great holiday season and are well.

Did someone say slower?:D

Heading to Arlington Natl Cemetery for a service tomorrow for one of my good friends in SF who we lost in the box on the 30th. One of our finest.

Keep the faith.

Brownie

leadbutt
January 11, 2006, 08:29 PM
Sorry to hear Brownie,, raise one for me:(

R.I.P.

Skyguy
January 13, 2006, 11:32 AM
Lasergrips give you an immediate and decisive advantage nothing else can equal. They provide superior weapons capabilities for self-defense, law enforcement and military applications.
Here's how:

Immediate Targeting:

Once properly sighted in, the laser dot marks exactly where the bullet will strike, regardless of how the gun is being held. It's just that simple. No other sighting device offers this capability.
Raise the gun, grip it like you normally would to shoot, and a pressure-sensitive switch activates the laser. Now you're ready to squeeze off a round, right on target, every time.

Low-Light Situations:

It's a fact that over 80% of incidents involving guns occur at night. Burglars, robberies, and assaults are much more likely to happen after dark, and that's exactly when Lasergrips really command an advantage.
Using Lasergrips, low light accuracy and speed increase more than with any other sighting tool, including night sights and even tactical lights.

Movement:

It's also a fact that in most life-threatening incidents, a person trying to hurt you isn't going to be standing still. And neither will you. Firing a handgun at a moving target, or while moving yourself, is extremely difficult. In competitions, and real-life situations, Lasergrips make shooting while moving faster and more accurate for even the best shooters.

Compensating For "Fight Or Flight" Response

Our natural response in a life-threatening situation is to flee, or stand our ground and fight. If we're forced to fight, our bodies respond automatically by pumping adrenaline for energy and narrowing our field of vision to focus the specific threat.
Fine muscle control needed to align the sights of a handgun becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible. Lasergrips compensate for this by enabling you to stay focused on the threat and accurately aim the gun without having to rely on fine motor skills.

Armed Encounters:

Nobody wants to use a weapon against another. But should a dangerous situation call for protecting yourself or your family, Lasergrips provide an immediate and decisive advantage. Thousands of law enforcement and military officers around the world have proven that Lasergrips can dramatically improve the outcome of an armed conflict.

Deterrent:

The threat of being shot is a strong deterrent. Nothing projects this threat as effectively as the bright red dot of a laser beam. Police and military users consistently report that Lasergrips de-escalate hostile situations by dramatically illustrating the consequences of continued hostile actions. Law-abiding citizens can have this same advantage, and can stop a threat without ever firing their gun.

Accountability:

In today's lawsuit-frenzied society, anyone deciding to point and fire a gun at another person, whether a law enforcement officer or citizen, must consider the consequences beyond the incident itself. Was it justified? Did the shooter take every precaution to ensure the safety of others? Lasergrips can help make good decisions because there is no ambiguity about where the gun is pointed and what will happen if it is fired.

Handgun Training:

Lasergrips are the best tool ever developed for learning or teaching handgun basics such as trigger control and sight picture. The laser vividly shows exactly where the gun is aiming at all times. Slight deviations from smooth trigger pulls and improper alignment of traditional sights, are very easy to see and correct.

Recreational Shooting:

Lasergrips are a great accessory for the recreational shooter. After all, the fun of shooting is hitting the target, right? Whether your range is indoors, or a safe outdoor location, Lasergrips will positively help you hit the target more frequently and consistently.

Handgun Hunting:

Hunters everywhere are discovering the thrill of handgun hunting. The same immediate targeting capability Lasergrips offer every shooter is perfect for close-quarters contact with a wild hog, boar or bear, especially during low-light morning and evening time. Our HogHunter™ models are designed for large-caliber handguns popular among hunters.

--Crimson Trace

Harley Quinn
January 13, 2006, 01:06 PM
Both the tech and the sight are good for you.

I was one of the first if not the first to get my service revolver set up with a 'night sight', this was back in the early 70's. It was great for night shooting.

I worked mostly night shifts and really liked the idea had my model 15-3 worked on by a guy who was doing it and I really liked it. Boy you can't believe the controversy I was in with guy's who said I have been doing it for 11 years and blah blah blah you don't need it. Wrong.

Both are good the tech and the sight, back then it was just on the gun only the shooter could see it front and rear glowed, one white the other red.

With the new tech it is even better, pretty pricy but if I was carring and was active LEO. I would definitly have one of these laser dudes on my shooter you could count on it.

I have a friend who just recently had one put on his shooter (he is active LEO), we will be going to the range soon and I will shoot his and see how it is (Glock 22).

Take it easy, it is just a matter of life and death (yours) no biggie:eek: . I believe it is a real step in the right direction for accuracy for the guy who does not and will not train.:( So he will shoot better. That's good..:D

HQ

JN01
January 13, 2006, 05:34 PM
I have been experimenting with point shooting techniques for a little while now. The method descibed in the Applegate/Janich book "Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back" seems to work the best for me. They actually describe it as an unsighted aiming method.

It makes sense to me that under a life and death situation, I may likely focus on the threat rather than the gun sights, therefore, a "sightless" technique should be an important one.

It also seems reasonable that a laser sight, could at times, also be usefull in high stress situations. It would be another option, like the sights.

As I have no experience with laser sights, I am not trying to be critical, but I am curious about one aspect of using them.

My question is, if when the SHTF you are unable to focus on your sights, does the same hold true for a little red dot? When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?

Harley Quinn
January 13, 2006, 05:49 PM
That is the reason for the dissagreement. When it hits the fan you go to the instinct and survival mode and if you have not been trained and trained well
you are in the deep end.

But the lighted sights were great and so is the laser, but you still need to be able to shoot and response is the thing, the timing, the action the reaction.

All of it comes into play and then just as you are squeezin that trigger you realize it is not the bad guy and you need to be able to react to that as well.
Training is the key, everyone likes to talk about it but there are very few departments out there that have the kind of training LAPD has.

They come from all over the world to be trained at the facilities.

Harley

matthew temkin
January 13, 2006, 06:15 PM
JNO1..yes.
I was a personal friend/student of Col. Applegate and he felt that a laser was just something else to look for and slow you down.
Keep practicing the point shooting and it will serve you well.

pickpocket
January 13, 2006, 08:07 PM
The laser is better in low-light than in bright (or direct) light...easier to find the dot. But, as will all things, you should train extensively with your laser just as you train yourself to reflex shoot.
If you know what you're looking for, the dot is relatively easy to find. If you can't find it easily, then don't waste time looking for it, just revert to the front sight.
When you need it, the laser should just be an extension of your weapon...second nature...just like what the rest of your skills should be.

Saying that the laser is useless is something like saying NVG's or thermal imaging are useless. They're all tools, and to use a tool effectively you need to have solid fundamental skills and solid training in how to employ your tool.

Skyguy
January 13, 2006, 10:29 PM
My question is, if when the SHTF you are unable to focus on your sights, does the same hold true for a little red dot?

No! You will focus on the threat and with minimal training you should easily see and place the dot on the target.

When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?
Yes, but still easier than sights.

FYI: How far is the laser visible?
Crimson Trace has the most powerful beam allowed by law, a Class IIIa visible light diode. At night, in reduced light and indoors the laser is highly visible up to several hundred yards. Under bright sunlight, the dot can be seen up to 15 yards away. --Crimson Trace

also.....pickpocket nailed it. Do a re-read of his post.

.

JN01
January 14, 2006, 12:40 PM
Skyguy,

I re-read pickpockets post as you suggested. The technique he is describing is essentially the same as the Applegate method. If you concentrate on the target and raise the gun to line of sight level, you see "through" the gun peripherally to index it with the target. If you do this I would think that your laser dot would then also be on target. It doesn't seem like the laser would offer that much of an advantage in that situation, although it would verify your "aiming" point.

After seeing the videos on the Crimson Trace web site, it seems to me the biggest plus to having a laser sight would be those instances where you can't bring the gun to line of sight level.

I think they would be another useful tool to have available as an option. I guess I just need to try one out for myself.

One other thing; if you pocket carry or SmartCarry a gun equipped with CT grips, could the pressure activated switch inadvertently turn on easily?

Az Qkr
January 14, 2006, 06:45 PM
"Quote:
When you and/or the target are moving, is it even harder to find this bouncing dot?

Yes, but still easier than sights."

Yes, but harder [ and slower ] than no sights.

Hence threat focused firing method which work very well when either or are moving.

"Saying that the laser is useless is something like saying NVG's or thermal imaging are useless."

I haven't seen anyone suggest it's useless here.

Robin Brown

Harley Quinn
January 14, 2006, 06:58 PM
Blazed his way into glory with the double action 38 specials S&W. His last name I have drawn a blank for some reason been so long since I thought of the man.
He was some kind of a shot no sighting, just pull and shoot. Fast and accurate at 15' all into a playing card.

I saw an LAPD guy in the late 50s do the same and then he went to sighted firing and split the cards. Had um side ways pretty impressive. I know low powered loads and all but still good shooting in anyones book.

This was quite a while ago and he was not the first or the last to go with the same mentality as R.B.

HQ

pickpocket
January 14, 2006, 07:35 PM
Az Qkr:
I haven't seen anyone suggest it's useless here.

Well, maybe not in so many words, but....

Sweatnbullets:
I will take the money I saved on needless hardware and put it towards more software and ammo for that training.


OBIWAN:
"People who have been there/done that will tell you - in my experience" To use your sights


matthew temkin:
...felt that a laser was just something else to look for and slow you down.

It was just a blanket statement :rolleyes:

Skyguy
January 14, 2006, 07:37 PM
I guess I just need to try one out for myself.

Once you try them you'll never look back. They're amazing.

When using the laser you'll never have to take your eyes off the target/threat.
You'll not have to use either the gun or the sights to hit the target/threat....just the dot.
You'll be able to hold your weapon at any convenient height or angle and still hit the target or threat.

In my opinion, for defense, learn to point shoot for very close range. Then incorporate the lasergrips and/or sights at medium and extended range.

If you're serious about defensive shooting....stop pussyfootin around and get with the program!

.

pickpocket
January 14, 2006, 07:48 PM
That's the thing of it... lasers are great if you can't get a clean angle on your target, or if you're engaging at a range beyond that which you train to reflex shoot.
In almost every single engagement I've had where I was using my pistol, I ended up simply point shooting, in one form or another, because you have only fractions of a second to react and if you get the laser on, cool...if not, oh well....you're still within 10-15m and you should be able to put a round center mass at that range even if you file your sights off. There was only one or two times the laser came in handy. My point is that there WAS a time when it came in handy, and I was GLAD to have it :)

Sweatnbullets
January 14, 2006, 08:51 PM
It was just a blanket statement

Needless for me is not useless for everyone else. Big difference!

I'm not going to install lasers on all seven of my self defense guns. I wonder how much something like that would cost? I can apply QK to every gun that may ever end up in my hands.

Cost me about $100 for the QK knowledge and training.

pickpocket
January 14, 2006, 09:01 PM
Needless for me is not useless for everyone else. Big difference!

hehe...no, I didn't mean anything other than that every tool has its place.

Az Qkr
January 14, 2006, 10:51 PM
HQ:

I believe Ed McGiven is who you are thinking of. One of the true greats with a handgun.

"and you should be able to put a round center mass at that range even if you file your sights off."

Like the attachments? :D This is the one I use to practice and train others with.

Robin Brown

STLRN
January 15, 2006, 01:51 PM
Laser pointers and NVS have their applications, but in general a NVG with a IR pointer/aimer is better tool for a weapon than a dedicated NVS. NVS are more suited to static SP/LPs than for any time you are moving.

pickpocket
January 15, 2006, 02:25 PM
Like the attachments? This is the one I use to practice and train others with.

Precisely. And I DO like :)

riverkeeper
January 17, 2006, 02:31 AM
I tried QK and a CT revolver a few days ago during an extended range session.
Most folks on the board are probably better shooters than me, so this is provided for those who are not and/or might otherwise be interested.

My reading and now limited experience with Point Shooting (like QK) demand I learn this. Was able to adjust the hits to mostly about 5 inch groups at 20 ft in rapid 2 and 3 round bursts. (Post #1) Regripped near Low Ready between bursts and then quickly back to target…no firing from draw or on the ground etc at the range. Targets are printer paper. Practiced dryfire with this most days for a week … as confidence and smoothness grew so did results. My current default is Front Sight Press but I wish it was PS. For me PS is quicker and I feel really good using it – love the target focus. My 12 years of FSP are not wasted because ‘they’ say about 25% of deadly encounters are beyond 20 ft.

The rental CT revolver was 40% heavier, had a better trigger and different grips and the CT guy was not around to give me a quick heads up BUT it was a great shoot. Smallest combat groups with quickest follow-ups ever. The guy who said ‘Try it…you’ll buy it’, nailed it. PS gets me to trigger break quicker which might partially be due to looking for the red dot initially rather than cleanly at the POA. I got better with practice but I suspect PS will always be quicker. The small groups are really inspiring…the CT tape is on the way.

Thanks to those who responded to the thread and to Matt for this:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195298

Az Qkr
January 17, 2006, 02:42 AM
riverkeeper:

Thanks for the update on your experiences with this.

If you were to be in one of the training weekends where QK was being taught, I have no doubt you'd improve rapidly from where you report you are presently in a matter of a few hours.

I do appreciate your interest and hope you continue to work with the threat focused methodologies. It really is only a matter of desiring the knowledge as it is out there and being more accepted all the time. Feel free to get back to me if you have any questions relative the QK pistol system in the future.

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 17, 2006, 12:53 PM
In my experiences, point shooting begins to lose its luster past 15 feet....about the length of a car.
Even the slightest variations (1/8") of the front sight/barrel will result in erratic points of impact (POI).
The farther out the target....the greater the variation of the POI.
That's not a good thing.

In a life or death scenario, point shooting past very close range greatly increases the miss probability
and tends to degrade into spray and pray.
Add in the fear factor, adrenaline, tunnel vision, movement, loss of fine motor skills
........and hits on the threat become more luck than skill.

Past belly gun range is where the lasergrips excel, not only in speed of target acquisition but in the
ability to consistently paint and hit the threat.

It's 21st century stuff...and it works.

.

Az Qkr
January 17, 2006, 01:20 PM
"In my experiences, point shooting begins to lose its luster past 15 feet....about the length of a car."

Formal training will extend the distance well past 15 feet using QK. One can double that distance with practice and anything inside 21 feet is OWNED immmeidately.

"In a life or death scenario, point shooting past very close range greatly increases the miss probability"

The "very close range" wasn't defined in distance above so it is hard to understand that statement precisely. The statement above is not exclusive to pointshooting however, as most will certainly relate to the same occuring trying to use their sights.

"Past belly gun range is where the lasergrips excel"

That may be your experience yet it is not etched in stone for those who have the training to use threat focused methodologies.

Most anything we will run into where a handgun is used for defense will be well within the 21 feet and probably inside 15. At either of these distances QK is fast and accurate once the skill has been learned.

I've got video of myself using a gov45 with NO sights at 60 feet on a humanoid full size target where 22 rounds were fired from three magazines [ two reloads ] and all shots were on the body, and 70% of those were within an 8 inch circle COM.

Is this something I'll do on the street? Unlikely, but it does indicate that QK is certainly valid past "belly gun range" or "very close range" scenarios with training. The shots were fired quickly at close to two rounds per second.

Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 17, 2006, 01:35 PM
60ft.....20m....not too shabby. :cool:

Ronny
January 17, 2006, 01:39 PM
Mr. Brown,

Off topic, but I bet you completely annihilate everyone at bowling pin shoots, don't you? :D

Az Qkr
January 17, 2006, 01:41 PM
I tired of the debate that threat focused methodologies, and particularly QK was only dependable and accurate enough for belly distance or very close ranges so I decided to test it on the range last year.

I knew it was good to 30 feet already from years of doing this, and moved the target out to a measured 60 feet with a tape measure, the camera documented the distance to my feet, the target was panned to show a clean unshot surface, rolled while I shot 22 rounds and then stayed rolling while we both walked to the target and I counted the holes for the camera.

I could push it further but why bother, if I slowed the pace of shooting, I'm sure I could get to 90 feet with no sights. At 60 feet I was hitting pretty damned quick, and could NOT see the holes from there, so we didn't know what to expect till we walked up on it.

Robin Brown

Az Qkr
January 17, 2006, 01:49 PM
Ronny:

I have shot pin matches but prefer the plate racks myself;)

I am on video years ago shooting six plates [ 8 inches in diameter ] at 33 feet in 4.0 seconds flat where the camera moved to the timer after the run. This was against an opponent with another rack next to me.

We started from surrender and sometimes from low ready. I've had better runs but thats the one run that was filmed that day where the timer was panned by the camera for posterity.

Quite a few of my A class IPSC friends thought they would kick butt with their $2K guns against my 400.0 sightless 45, they were usually dissapointed:eek:

Robin Brown

Ronny
January 17, 2006, 01:52 PM
*Darth Vader voice:* ...impressive...

pickpocket
January 17, 2006, 01:55 PM
Az Qkr
...shooting six plates [ 8 inches in diameter ] at 33 feet in 4.0 seconds flat...
On the move?
You're the MAN!

Az Qkr
January 17, 2006, 02:26 PM
On the move?

No, the plate racks are shot stationary on a line at the same time an opponent is trying to beat you on his 6 plate rack, reacting to the buzzer. The last plate is on a timer that measured thousands of a second so there was no question who won the relay.

You advanced through relays until you were eliminated or took the money or trophy. We called each relay a run, sorry for the confusion.

I wish I could shoot that fast on the move, but not yet, and maybe never.:(

Robin Brown

Az Qkr
January 17, 2006, 02:32 PM
Ronny:

Not really that impressive in reality. I knew guys at some matches that were down around low 3 seconds for 6 plates, but then they were using sights and I wasn't:D

Thats not making excuses either. These guys had a lot of skill on the guns and practiced all the time at these skills.

I thought my times were okay, and of course I had the ocassional miss trying to keep up with these guys at times.:( Thing was, they were still impressed even when they would beat me on the rack plates as the gun I used was handicapped in their mind.:rolleyes:

I've also shot sub 4 second runs often enough, but that was when everything came together and I was into a zen mindset of sorts, just letting it flow without thought of what was happening. It's a euphoric feeling when it happens.

One of the best shots I have ever made on a snapshot was at 50 feet in a sandbank with buddies around. They put an empty yellow plastic 22 box [ about 1.5 inches square on the end ] on a fence post and asked if I could just draw and hit it. The first shot took it off the post and everyone thought it had fallen after I hit the post. We walked to it and the plastic box was shattered on the ground. This was with a lightweight commander with milspec sights which I didn't use. Another zen moment had happened then.

The limiting factor is always the mind. As the one who bring others into QK with a pistol of revolver [ I own the registered copyrights ], I don't "train" people in this skill, I open the door to their natural abilities with QK, and they either step through that door and are enlightened or they do not. Thats why the mind is the limiting factor. They are shown how to do something they have always been able to do, and didn't know it, just like I was by the master Bobby Lamar [ Lucky ] McDaniel.

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 17, 2006, 06:18 PM
Lasergrips allow fast and precise shot placement from nearly any angle or awkward position or reasonable distance.....indoors, outdoors, daylight, twilight, nightlite or darkness.

Personally, I also practice sudden, close pointshooting and extended distance sight shooting.
But there is no doubt that the laser is a superior asset and method, especially for the novice, frightened, wounded or 'seldom' shooter.

Just place the dot and you'll hit that spot.

.

Az Qkr
January 18, 2006, 03:14 AM
Skyguy:

I asked before and can't remember if you replied or not, but do you work for CT?

Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 18, 2006, 12:24 PM
Hahaha....

<whip> :cool:

Skyguy
January 18, 2006, 12:45 PM
I asked before and can't remember if you replied or not, but do you work for CT?
Nope.
I'm just impressed with the immediate decisive advantage of Lasergrips, especially on the self defense side of the coin.

But I'm in good company, there's also:

U.S. Military and NATO forces....many law enforcement agencies

Ernie Langdon…..IDPA champion, Marine vet, trainer
Massad Ayoob…..World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
Ken Hackathorn…..international small arms trainer, author, consultant
Mike Dalton…..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion
Bob Taubert..…Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert
Tom Aveni…..Use of force policy expert, police officer, trainer
Marty Hayes…..FAS President, Master handgunner, police officer
Jim Cirrillo
Ted Nugent…..President of United Sportsmen of America, Author and Musician
C. R. Vanderscoff..…Beretta USA, trainer
Eugene Nielsen…..Investigative and Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
Michael De Bethencourt.....Staff instructor of the Northeastern Tactical Schools
Denny Hansen…..SWAT magazine
Rich Verdi..…trainer
Bob Scott.....Vice-Chairman of the Board, Smith & Wesson
Wes Doss…..trainer
A'Tow Avon…..American Survival Guide
Ralph Mroz.....Training Director, Police Officers Safety Association, Firearms Consultant and Author
Todd Jarrett…..World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
Leroy Thompson…..Combat Handguns
Colonel Rex Applegate......

et al........Source: http://www.crimsontrace.com/default.asp?id=678

Sure do wish Crimson Trace sold stock. I'd buy. :)

.

Harley Quinn
January 18, 2006, 01:40 PM
So while over at the range the other day I was checking them out (laser grip).

I was sucessful in having the laser show up if I held the gun so my trigger finger would not get in the way. But it gets in the way as often as not.:(

Big hands, the gun it was on a 1911 plastic model, just was not going to work so I tried the other that was on a Glock look a like.

No good:( .
I would have to go for the one that goes on the recoil spring and guide, the grip laser is a no good for me.:(

It did prove one thing though, my point shooting is right on all the time even when aiming at gun grips in the wall cases. Always hit the grip showed my amigo and he was impressed, with my abilities. But not with the grips. He has the same problem:( Both are satchel mitted for hands.:rolleyes:

HQ

Skyguy
January 18, 2006, 02:44 PM
I was sucessful in having the laser show up if I held the gun so my trigger finger would not get in the way. But it gets in the way as often as not.

Sorry to hear that your first experience with a Lasergrip didn't pan out very well.
I also had the same issue with my first use of the Lasergrip.

A good instructor could easily correct your problem/grip on the pistol which is probably caused by
placing your trigger finger too high when it's outside the trigger guard.

But please keep in mind that, like shooting itself, there is a learning curve along with a bit of muscle memory
....all reinforced by familiarity and practice.

My problem was solved by learning to place my trigger finger on the front of the trigger guard instead of
immediately below the slide on the receiver itself.

It is now a second nature grip and it has no effect whatsoever on the function of my 1911.
.

Harley Quinn
January 18, 2006, 03:24 PM
I will have to see how that works I am going shooting at the range this week with a little m1 carbine and my 40 cal Glock. I try to vary the guns, never know which will be in your hands.:cool:

HQ

Az Qkr
January 18, 2006, 03:38 PM
Lets keep things in some persepective here.

Mas does not use lasers on his defensive sidearms, nor his competition guns.

Applegate never used them on his defensive arms either.

While all those people you listed off their website MAY endorse them, certainly NOT ALL use them on any regular basis.

Not all of the US forces use them either. I know for a fact that the SF 5th group doesn't have them on their long guns or handguns. Some certainly do, including some LE agencies as well.

Thats a bit different than saying all the listed people are using them and find value in them on their arms.

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 18, 2006, 06:51 PM
Thats a bit different than saying all the listed people are using them and find value in them on their arms.

Hey..."Lets keep things in some persepective here." :)

In my own defense Robin, I never actually said "all the listed people are using them and find value in them on their arms".
I just said that I was "in good company". Good company meaning some very credible and experienced gunslingers.
But I understand your indignation.

Let's face it, most of those listed use Lasergrips and all of them endorse Lasergrips. I don't believe any of them would put their reputation on the line over a bogus firearm attachment or methodology.

Oh, and for the record, Colonel Rex Applegate did say:

"In my opinion, the S&W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
.

Az Qkr
January 18, 2006, 07:09 PM
From CT's own website answering expert:

How much (ie, as a percentage) of your shooting practice is done with the laser?

Answer:

I shoot once or twice a week and average approx. 500 rounds per week downrange through my primary carry/competition pistol. For the next few months that number will probably double as time permits. My usual routine includes about 50 rounds per session working with the laser, which works out to 15% or so.

I'm toying with the idea of a "laser weekend" up at COMTAC some time this summer ... put about 1,000 rounds down range in two days (and nights) using the laser the whole time. Having done something similar once before, it seems like a good way to eek maximum benefit out of the technology.

I'm a firm believer in practicing with my iron sights most of the time, and counting on the laser as a "bonus" when I use it. But given the reliability of the Lasergrips that I've used pretty extensively over the past few years, I'm wondering if they don't deserve a greater percentage of my training time & money.

Their own expert practices with their product 15% of the time while shooting. He's a firm believer in using his sights most of the time. His only thought to using them more is based on their "reliability", not their being more effective in SD shooting scenarios.

From their "Snubbie Summit" review, where Mr. Caceres was in attendance for CT, it makes no mention of either Cirillo or Ayoob advocating lasers for their own snubby use anywhere, just that they were in attendance at the summit. Not one was quoted as using them at the summit, so we do not know if they used them there or had them on their personal snubbies. I suspect if they did, CT would have made mention of it.

From their advertising:

"Nobody wants to use a weapon against another. But should a dangerous situation call for protecting yourself or your family, Lasergrips provide an immediate and decisive advantage. Thousands of law enforcement and military officers around the world have proven that Lasergrips can dramatically improve the outcome of an armed conflict."

They fail to list even a few of these "thousands" that have proven it can dramatically improve the outcome of an armed encounter.

"Law enforcement agencies have demonstrated that Lasergrips improve hit ratios by as much as 300%. U.S. law enforcement officers are among the best-trained shooters in the world, but hit ratios during shootings in the field are staggeringly low, under 20%. Lasergrips dramatically improve their performance in real-life shootings."

What? They are telling us that US Law dogs are among the best trained shooters in the world? Having been one, I know differently. It's the exception, not the rule as they suggest. And this statement then confirms what I have just said " hit ratios during shootings in the field are staggeringly low, under 20%"

Seems contradictory at best and just more fuel to make a case for their product to me.

This one is good as well: "Evidence from law enforcement and military users clearly shows that a subject is more likely to stand down when faced with a laser-equipped gun."

That has no relation to what an armed citizen will be doing in a SD situation reacting to a threat. Their statement fully supports the OFFENSIVE actions of lawdogs and military using them, totally different for civilians. Anyone here think that a reactive armed encounter is the same as a lawdog who has the gun out, up and is hunting? I don't, and the uses are totally different in nature between the two.

And this one: "Crimson Trace is just the solution they’ve been seeking. No more trying to align sights or choosing between a fuzzy target and fuzzy sights. Crimson Trace puts the sight right on the target."

If one has aging eyes so the threat is fuzzy, isn't the dot going to be fuzzy at the same focal plane and distance? Seems reasonable to believe so. How would a fuzzy target be able to see a small red dot with clarity at the same distance? More hyperbole seems to me.

I'll admit, their advertising makes their product sound like the answer for everyones needs. Thats just good marketing, pure and simple.

Then, if we rethink this logically, their expert uses it 15% of his practice time and prefers to work with his sights, and only considers using it more in practice due to their "reliability", and not some clear adavantage they have over sights in most situations.

Hmmm, interesting.

Applegate may well have said that, but he did NOT use one on his personal sidearms, and that speaks volumes does it not?

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 18, 2006, 07:33 PM
From CT's own website answering expert:
My usual routine includes about 50 rounds per session working with the laser, which works out to 15% or so.

I think that the 'expert' only devotes 15% of his shooting time to using Lasergrips is because it's so easy to become a proficient shooter with a laser.

One easily becomes deadly accurate in no time and from nearly any awkward or compromising position....indoors, outdoors, daylight, twilight, nightlight or darkness.

I'm somewhat the same as the 'expert'. I devote the bulk of my practice to point shooting and extended range sight shooting because that's what needs constant reinforcing. Lasergrips need much less practice time. No need to waste time and ammo.
.

Az Qkr
January 18, 2006, 07:44 PM
What the expert said was "I'm a firm believer in practicing with my iron sights most of the time, and counting on the laser as a "bonus" when I use it."

He didn't mention anything about using Lasergrips 15% of the time because it's so easy to become a proficient shooter with a laser.

Robin Brown

OBIWAN
January 18, 2006, 09:24 PM
Wow...wandered pretty far afield haven't we...oh what the heck

Lasers have a place in the toolbox...while I was a late convert, I have now "seen the light":o

They can(with practice) allow you to make really awkward shots that would be difficult/impossible otherwise

They are an exceptional bonus when employed with a ballistic shield..

But while training with one will help you become a better shot by giving real-time feedback on your alignment, they are not magic.

If your platform is not solid, you will get to watch the dancing dot, but not hit your target any more often.

I think they can really help with training to shoot on the move....great feedback...you can really see the effect movement has on your point of aim

I have no problems with the lasergrip on my 1911....when my finger is on the trigger it is out of the way....and that is when I need the dot.

I do NOT use it like a searchlight

pickpocket
January 18, 2006, 09:32 PM
hahaha...can we let this one die now? :)

pax
January 18, 2006, 09:40 PM
re Cirillo & CT, Jim was working CT's booth at the SHOT Show last January and has always spoken highly of the product. He uses them as instructional tools in his classes, but also does demos without them so students can see that the techniques work either way.

My experience with CT has been that you do need to practice with them when you first get them, and need to be skilled in transitioning from laser to irons -- but that the laser is so instinctual and non-perishable a skill that a 15%/85% practice ratio sounds about right.

BTW, if your trigger finger is blocking the beam, you obviously aren't yet ready to fire because your finger isn't yet on the trigger. Proper light discipline means that you should not be activating the laser until you are ready to shoot, so blocking the beam is really not an issue if you are using the laser correctly in the first place. But if it bugs you, just get in the habit of resting your trigger finger on or slightly above the bulge of the laser.

pax

OBIWAN
January 18, 2006, 09:49 PM
We sure can...but first

Thanks PAX...much clearer when you say it

AZ QKR- we are gonna have to agree to disagree....our main difference is I don't think I am right about everything;)

Matt....You have been off my ignore list every since you regained your sense of humor..:D many ...many moons ago

Love what you wrote on THR recently



"In other words---unless one's position is to always use one's sights----there is no debate. Just good old common sense. "

Exactly right......Both have their place....we mostly disagree on where to draw the line...some get downright nasty about it...waste of time IMHO

Some of us also disagree about exactly what is PS and what is "soft focus", stressfire, etc....etc...etc......most of us can do so without getting testy

Can't remember the name of the guy that filled me in on your training...I have a near photographic memory for words and numbers but names and faces ..fuugedabboutit...

Suffice it to say that whathisname was a true artist with a handgun, spoke highly of you, and used his sights...most of the time

Az Qkr
January 19, 2006, 03:38 AM
"Some of us also disagree about exactly what is PS and what is "soft focus", stressfire, etc....etc...etc."

There's no need to disagree on this at all.

Enos created his own set of "descriptors" about 15 years ago. :rolleyes:

Pointshooting descriptors have been around for what?, 60+ years at least? :cool:

If I suddenly called pointshooting something like "just do it focus" I wonder if that would supercede what was established 60+ years ago as well? Somehow I seriously doubt it.

Then again, if some 17 year old grew up with that descriptor, having read a book about it, it sure would be hard to convince him he was wrong when he was informed it wasn't now wouldn't it?:D

Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 19, 2006, 08:04 AM
Well...do you think if you renamed it "Just Do It Focus" that you could market it? LOL

Az Qkr
January 19, 2006, 10:55 AM
I would hope not, but in todays world one never knows.:rolleyes:

I was dubbing around further with this last night, we could develop the soft,soft,soft focus [ focus # 1,339,442, described as squinting so much you could barely see ]:confused:, and then there could be the hard, hard, hard focus [ focus # -18,649, described as the steely, glaring mad as hell stare. :eek:



Robin Brown

pickpocket
January 19, 2006, 11:22 AM
What about the 1,000-yard stare? Ahh...the possibilities are endless.

Az Qkr
January 19, 2006, 11:27 AM
What about the 1,000-yard stare?

Yes, thats the Zombie focus [ focus #4.857369 ]:D

Robin Brown

Harley Quinn
January 19, 2006, 01:43 PM
It would have to be the one that is in the snout and can not be interferred with.

I believe the focus and the quick ability to function without the need of anything else is paramont in the training of a true 'Gunman'.

Have we discussed this:

Is there policy on the laser site in various Departments? If so some of you who are active, what is it?

HQ

Skyguy
January 19, 2006, 01:55 PM
Re: Tactics and Training....Front Sight Press AND Quick Kill:

It's been said that a picture is worth a thousand words.
So, here's a video that will not only explain the immediate decisive advantage of Lasergrips, it will also explain
their value as a point shooter's training tool.

This 14 minute video below demonstrates Lasergrips' instant, accurate target acquisition in dynamic and low light situations.
Accelerate your handgun skills and get the basics in self-defense from the experts at Crimson Trace.

Laser Training and Defense Techniques.......http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv
.

Capt Charlie
January 19, 2006, 02:06 PM
Is there policy on the laser site in various Departments? If so some of you who are active, what is it?
Not on mine, and I've never heard of actual, written policy on them. I'm sure there are a few out there that do though.

I have a laser on my 870-P. It allows for a wider view of my surroundings when I'm sweeping a building, and it has one hell of an intimidation factor (not that the shotgun needs it ;) ).

It's easier to track a laser on a long gun than it is one mounted on a pistol. I have no actual, situational experience with a pistol mounted laser, but I do with that on a Taser, and I've found this to be true: If you have the time to steady the dot, it's a very effective tool, but if you only have time for a snap shot, it's very difficult for the eye to track that rapidly moving dot, especially when the target's moving as well.

pickpocket
January 19, 2006, 02:37 PM
Capt_Charlie:
If you have the time to steady the dot, it's a very effective tool, but if you only have time for a snap shot, it's very difficult for the eye to track that rapidly moving dot, especially when the target's moving as well.


Well said! I think that's about the best explanation I've seen to explain what some of us have been saying throughout the whole thread.

Az Qkr
January 19, 2006, 02:46 PM
"I believe the focus and the quick ability to function without the need of anything else is paramont in the training of a true 'Gunman'."

I really like this one. I could not have said it better. True gunman have lived and survived for a long time without anything but their skills and focus when the SH'sTF.

It should go down as a trueism of the gun world IMO. I'll be using this thought in my lessons from now on. It perfectly describes what it is we do.

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 19, 2006, 11:23 PM
Massad does not use lasers on his defensive sidearms,

Au contraire mon ami:

"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun......." -- Massad Ayoob

http://www.fxequipment.com/images/305.jpg

Az Qkr
January 19, 2006, 11:27 PM
Thats not his primary, it's a backup, now how many times is he going to go to a backup?

How many ever go to a backup?

Like I said, he doesn't use one on his defensive gun. And how do I know this you ask? Well, I used to shoot against him all the time. I have first hand knowledge of what he carried defensively.

And I know first hand he does NOT need a lasergrip on his defensive arm, he can shoot very well without them, but he does use his sights:D.

Take what he has to say about a lot of things with a grain of salt. Want to know why? send me a pm

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 20, 2006, 12:06 AM
Take what he has to say about a lot of things with a grain of salt. Want to know why? send me a pm

I already know why. But it's still fun to quote him.

:)

Az Qkr
January 20, 2006, 12:28 AM
;)

Brownie

Skyguy
January 20, 2006, 12:30 AM
I'm pretty sure that I could outshoot Massad in this situation. :)
Me using my lasered 1911 and him using his primary w/sights or pointing or however.
No backup allowed.

http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/small/prone.jpeg

pax
January 20, 2006, 12:33 AM
If you have the time to steady the dot, it's a very effective tool, but if you only have time for a snap shot, it's very difficult for the eye to track that rapidly moving dot, especially when the target's moving as well.

???

Capt Charlie, how much time have you spent behind a laser? And do you have access to a range with moving targets?

pax

Capt Charlie
January 20, 2006, 01:17 AM
Capt Charlie, how much time have you spent behind a laser? And do you have access to a range with moving targets?
Not much, but it's been the real deal, with adrenalin flowing, and not on the range. The weapon was a Taser, which has a laser sight, and the guy had a knife. I only had a split second to line up the laser and fire, and I found it very difficult to track that laser dot quickly. It really was more of an instinct shoot than actually using the laser to sight.

Az Qkr
January 20, 2006, 01:23 AM
"I'm pretty sure that I could outshoot Massad in this situation. :)"

I would have taken that bet between 1984 and 1987-88. You would have lost, plain and simple. I can't say about now, as I have not seen Mas in some time.

I get the impression you would like to create very low percentage scenarios where the laser MIGHT be an advantage to prove some point by your last post.

Take the next 5 years and find me a documented shooting where the defender actually fired in self defense from the scenario you just gave. Look at all the resources available at your disposal on the net. I think you will not find ONE where that has been a position the defender had to shoot from. When you find ONE, let us know.

The probability of such is so small as to be irrelevant in the real world except to someone as yourself apparently attempting to find a situation to prove the lasers worth.

I'm really getting the impression that you are young [ say 20-25, maybe less, maybe a lot less ] with no real working street experience, someone who really can't shoot all that well, relatively speaking, with sights, or without them. One who has found a crutch in the laser and has latched onto that crutch attempting to convince everyone they also need that crutch 24/7. That you believe you can win on the street with that crutch [ which may be the case or may not be depending on who you choose to mess with ]. That you have bought into the CT laser advertising so heavily that you are either deluding yourself that a perfect sceneario for the laser will present itself so that you can then validate the advertising or that you have so latched onto the crutch of that device that you can't see the forest from the trees.

Now, it may be I'm way off base here, you are 40-60 years, you have a background of working the streets and dealing with BG's daily where survival has been predicated by your cognitive skills, street smarts through experience and your training in firearms, defensive knife, baton, H2H etc. If this latter is the case, and you have that background and do find that much value using what I consider a crutch, instead of any real skills through hard practice, I'll stand corrected.

Neither is an attempt to disparage you as a person or embarrass you in any way. Not everyone can have 30 years of surviving the streets, are old enough to qualify for that to begin with, or have enough gun handling skills from years of training to not have to rely on add ons, crutches, etc that appear to give one an advantage over another [ until you run into someone who can put three in you before you blink and turn that laser on or get your weapon up ].

If you feel you are faster with that laser/crutch, use it. I'm faster without one. I have very specific skills that have been honed over 37 years, 29 of those living the streets and staying alive against real threats by many means at my disposal. 25 years with one technique that even at my advanced age will work 95+% of the time in a SD situation statistically verifable through the FBI Crime reports over the last 25 years as well.

No need to take the above negatively, it's just what I read on you. Like I said, perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I'm right. I can only base my considerable cognitive skills on your posts. The last of which really did set off the bells to write the above.

You continue to work your side of the street, and I'll work mine. We'll never see eye to eye on the issue of the real relevance of having a laser on your defensive arm so there is no need to continue further. You are sold on them, I'm not with the exception of a narrow range of circumstances which are unlikely at best not handled as well with real training of the hardware you find in your hand when the elephant appears.

I hope you never have to experience the about to be stepped on by the beast adrenaline dump, and if you find yourself in that situation, I sincerely hope your skills are up to the task at hand. Rely on what you want for that moment if it happens one day, but do consider the potential for the laser to become a crutch you rely on too much at the potential of your own perils.

Good luck with your laser training, and stay safe out there.

Robin Brown

pax
January 20, 2006, 01:11 PM
Capt Charlie ~

Your agency sends you out with laser equipped Taser, but you haven't spent a lot of time working with a laser in practice? Bad juju there; glad it worked out okay in that case.

I venture to suggest that if you had spent some significant time with the laser on the range, esp with moving targets, using the laser dot might have been more "instinctive" when you needed it. Fair disclosure -- I say this as someone who has never been there or done that (nor likely ever will), but I have spent no little time at the range with a laser, on targets of nearly every description both while stationary and while moving. So what I have is not real world experience, but it is experience of a sort.

In my thus-limited experience, I've discovered a few things. First, if you've trained yourself to be a good "front sight" shooter, it will take a conscious act of the will to force your eyes to look at the laser dot as it appears on the target, instead of at your front sight, as you draw. Learning to trust the dot the very instant it appears is probably the hardest part of the learning curve with a laser; it isn't like irons where you might need to double-check the alignment. The dot is either there, or it is not. (Incidentally, if the dot is not there, the other essential training aspect is to transition instantly back to irons rather than fiddling with the laser or trying to diagnose its non-appearance.)

I have always found laser sighting very much easier for moving targets than iron sights are -- it's one of the areas lasers are best at. I'm looking for something that would explain your experience vs mine, and coming up blank. I'm assuming you've put enough time behind a pistol to have a kinesthetic as well as visual awareness of when the gun is on target and when it's not, so any weirdness there is out. It could be that you weren't prepared to instantly trust the laser dot when it first appeared; that's probably one of the more common difficulties I've seen with folks who are unfamiliar with lasers.

The other possibilities I can think of are really unlikely in your case, because you're an experienced and competent shooter. But as an example of the kinds of confusion that can occur, I had a conversation awhile back with someone who thought using a laser meant she would have to align her iron sights with the laser dot once the laser dot was on the target. It took awhile to explain that with a laser, she was supposed to ignore her iron sights altogether, and that the front sight didn't matter as long as the dot was on target. And I'm still not sure she believed me. If someone were trying to do something like that, of course the laser would slow her down considerably even on a cardboard target, and it would be very difficult for her to hit a moving target.

In any case, if you haven't spent some time with lasers on the range, you can't really expect them to work well for you in the field -- no matter what anyone says about how easy they are to use. Just like any other tool, their use does require training.

pax

Harley Quinn
January 20, 2006, 01:27 PM
Will ever cause the shotgun hunters a desire to go to the laser.:rolleyes:

That said and done. I would not get a grip laser since I have already posted the problem with the big mitts.

I do believe if I did get one (which I doubt). I would put it into my Glock 40 cal. But it would be the one that goes into the spring and sticks out of the snout.:)

They are a good tool (laser) and if you train with them they will be a very helpful item to have in your kit. I have them on two of my levels for construction work and they are great!:D

HQ

Capt Charlie
January 20, 2006, 01:42 PM
I'm looking for something that would explain your experience vs mine, and coming up blank.
I think the difference is a combination of adrenalin and a lack of time to line up properly. Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves. In my case, the man was suicidal and my Taser was down on my side, hidden from view, while a negotiator tried to talk him down. Didn't work, and the guy made a rapid attempt to plunge the knife into his chest. Distance was about 10 feet, and I had only a split second to bring the Taser up and fire. On a Taser, the laser comes on when you flip the safety off, and I remember it as being difficult to place and hold the dot steady in the proper place, given the time involved. Had I had more time, there's no doubt I could have steadied it on target.

Our Taser training is intensive, but the training centers mostly around its actual deployment, and not so much on the bells & whistles. I do agree, however, that training with the laser sight would add to its effectiveness, but given that Tasers are the only weapons we have that are laser equipped (except for SRT), there's never been a high priority put on it.

Skyguy
January 20, 2006, 01:43 PM
I hope you never have to experience the about to be stepped on by the beast adrenaline dump, and if you find yourself in that situation, I sincerely hope your skills are up to the task at hand. Rely on what you want for that moment if it happens one day, but do consider the potential for the laser to become a crutch you rely on too much at the potential of your own perils.


With my best intentions and all due respect to you Robin, I have to say.....WOW!

I didn't think that I'd have to present my credentials in order to support my perfectly legit information about the added advantage of Lasergrips in all sorts of self defense scenarios.

Somebody asked me once: "Have you ever had to dodge a bullet?"
That's when I first took account, thought and answered "Yep, probably 50,000 bullets have come my way...maybe more". He said, "Yeah, right". I just dropped the subject.

I am a proud Sky Soldier. A veteran of the Herd…the 173rd AB. We fought day and 'night' against the pro NVA and cong in war zones C and D, operation Junction City and Operation Macarthur.
I spent half of '66 and most of 11 months of '67 in the field. I've walked point day and night....been ambushed. I've seen enough.

I was wounded in Nov. '67 in my right arm, liver and lung on hill 875 near Dak To. Had trouble breathing and had a lot of really bad pain. Thought I'd die right there.
I left my m16, some of my hearing and my hero buddies on that hill.
I was dustoff-evac'd from there to a base hospital and eventually spent 3 months rehab in Germany. I am very fortunate and thankful for having only a 10% disability.

For nearly 10 years I was a commissioned covert controlled substance leo in Calumet City, Illinois. I did the streets.

I point shoot. I sight shoot. But, I have one more advantage over those that do likewise. I have lasergrips on my pistol.

You can call them a crutch....but I am 'positive' that they're a distinct tactical advantage.

Place the dot.....and day or night, you'll hit that spot.....guaranteed.

:)

pickpocket
January 20, 2006, 01:49 PM
Alright boys, before we choose seconds and count out twenty paces, let's name it a disagreement and call it a day.

Capt Charlie
January 20, 2006, 01:58 PM
Alright boys, before we choose seconds and count out twenty paces, let's name it a disagreement and call it a day.
We have no problem with disagreements at TFL, even somewhat heated ones, so long as they remain civil, and not personal. Good debate results in the pro's and con's of a subject being highlighted. This one's remained civil..... so far ;) .

Skyguy
January 20, 2006, 02:00 PM
Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves.

Any slight movement of any firearm, whether sighted or point shooting, will result in a greater movement of the POI. The greater the distance, the greater the movement.

The tactical advantage of the laser is that you can easily see the differential at the POI and compensate accordingly.....from 'any' position.

The dot is the POI.

pax
January 20, 2006, 02:28 PM
Remember that with a laser, a slight movement of the hand results in substantial movement of the dot on the target. The further away the target, the more the dot moves.
Thanks, you described what happened very clearly and it makes sense. I think the issue might be that you were relatively unfamiliar with the visual input from a laser. The normal amount of wobble in the dot can be very disconcerting if you're not used to it.

This would be easier to demonstrate in person, because it can be hard to visualize and I'm not sure words are up to the task, but ...

There is no actual, on-target difference between the normal, barely-visible wobble of a front sight and the also normal but relatively large wobble from a laser dot. The visual input from each describes exactly the same potential shot spread on the target. In both cases, a smooth trigger press will cause the shot to be well within the same targeting circle.

Picture it as the difference between a supershort sight radius and a superlong one, and you might be able to see what I'm getting at.

Did that explanation make sense?

pax

Harley Quinn
January 20, 2006, 02:50 PM
I have found that when officers sometime don't take the shot, they really did not want to, or felt death was not the right thing at the time.

Many of us have been there at the last milisec the perp drops the weapon or you are caught in a dispute where the firearm is not the right decision.

SkyGuy
I feel the discription of your qualifications are very good indeed, but it still does not convince me that I should have to use a laser that my finger covers and I don't have a like for.

I like the discussion, but lets just say you have your thoughts and others have theirs. I do believe for the new guy who is looking for the edge and feels the laser is it, will be enough to keep the company afloat. Or the guy who is feeling his age and the eyes are not as good as they use to be.

But if it was up to me and my thoughts they would not make it. I would go for the illuminated sights front and rear (or just the front) and the laser in the snout if I had to have one, as in.... Department Policy.

HQ

OBIWAN
January 20, 2006, 03:21 PM
The laser is just one more tool for the box

It should not be a "crutch" although I am certain that there are those shooters that buy them so they won't have to learn to aim

If not lasers they would likely turn to Point Shooting:D (sorry couldn't resist)

As stated before....my finger is not in the way because it is on the trigger when I am ready to shoot....and lining up the laser is no problem because it is right there....on target ....just out there past my front sight, because my weapon is already pointed at the target.(OMG...AM I POINT SHOOTING?:eek: )

So it is no better or worse than having no laser most of the time

But then....in those awkward moments ....when I am shooting around/under cover, low light, any number of non-standard situations.....

It may be invaluable

And the value as a training aid....priceless

As PAX pointed out....that wobble can be very educational

I hope everyone appreciates how I managed to mention the original thread subject at least twice in the course of discussing lasers

Capt Charlie
January 20, 2006, 03:40 PM
I hope everyone appreciates how I managed to mention the original thread subject at least twice in the course of discussing lasers
And even I wandered off topic here :D . Laser sights are a good and interesting topic (guess I got caught up in that) that deserves a thread of its own. Anybody care to start one?

Skyguy
January 20, 2006, 03:40 PM
But if it was up to me and my thoughts they would not make it.
I would go for the illuminated sights front and rear (or just the front) and the laser in the snout if I had to have one

Fair enough. Not everybody likes chocolate, either.

I'm just trying to spread the word in the firearms community and testify as to the immediate and numerous
tactical advantages of using a laser equipped firearm....day or night from any position.

Oh well, like they say; no good deed goes unpunished. :)

Here's my crutch:

http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/Dsc02922.jpg

Skyguy
January 20, 2006, 03:54 PM
And even I wandered off topic here

Not really.

The use of a laser equipped firearm is a tactic and they are well suited for training.
....especially in the varied disciplines of point shooting; front sight press and QK.

:)

Capt Charlie
January 20, 2006, 04:06 PM
The use of a laser equipped firearm is a tactic and they are well suited for training.
....especially in the varied disciplines of point shooting; front sight press and QK.
Uncle!!!! :D

Pax

Did that explanation make sense?
Yes it did! Thanks! :)

JN01
January 20, 2006, 05:42 PM
Az Qkr has a valid point about not allowing the laser sight to become a crutch. It would be foolish to depend entirely on it (which, no matter how reliable, is still the most susceptible to failure, i.e dead battery) and neglect the other techniques. It seems the best of all would be to regularly practice PS without the laser, with the laser, and at longer ranges, sighted fire.

I envision more likely scenario for the advantageous use of a laser than the one Skyguy gave:

You're sitting in your car, someone rushes up to you with a weapon. You may not have time to drive off before he shoots or (if your window is down) stabs you. If you draw and extend the gun out to PS, he might grab or deflect it (window down) or (window up) the gun hits the glass and the shot goes wild. With the laser, you could keep the gun down out of reach and still make the shot.

Sweatnbullets
January 20, 2006, 08:40 PM
The ultimate goal of PSing is to refine your eye/hand cordination, so that you can get hits from any position and any angle. In the scenario above the hit can be made without a laser.

Az Qkr
January 21, 2006, 06:21 AM
Well, gentlemen and ladies,

I just got back [ its' 4 am here ] from a very long day.

Skyguy: You have my utmost respect for your service and experiences in life. I also share some of those same experiences, but in different areas of SE asia. :eek:

Mine were in the An Hoa valley near the airfield there. Just southeast of no mans land, near hill 55 and FSB Ross in the Quang Nam province of SNV.

I stand corrected, you do not need to speak in furtherance for me sir.

We disagree on this issue, we can and have kept this civil and I will not continue further in this vane as we will never agree, yet on my end at least, will honor your opinions on the issue. For no matter what would be said, I know you have a background worthy of at least listening to.

Stay safe

Brownie

Skyguy
January 21, 2006, 12:23 PM
We disagree on this issue, we can and have kept this civil and I will not continue further in this vane as we will never agree, yet on my end at least, will honor your opinions on the issue. For no matter what would be said, I know you have a background worthy of at least listening to.

Hey, back at ya.
I, too, respect your knowledge and experiences and your valued effort to train folks in the defensive use of a pistol.

For the record, I never intended to put down anyone or any shooting technique. I even tried to emphasize that I use and train at point shooting, laser indexed shooting and sighted shooting.

I believe all three are valuable responses in certain scenarios.
But, I also believe that sudden point shooting at close range is the most useful shooting technique for self defense.
....and that a laser equipped pistol is, indeed, a decisive tactical advantage.

That said, seems we have more in common than not.

:)

Skyguy
January 23, 2006, 12:42 PM
WARNING - WARNING - WARNING

Do not read this if....you're stuck in the past....you don't have an open mind....or you know it all.


FBI statistics show that close to 70% of police shootings occur at night or in reduced light environments.

Tips on surviving low light critical incidents

- Train, practice in low light conditions, learn to use darkness as an ally.
- Take advantage of new technology and equipment.
- Develop good skills: white light; movement; use of cover, etc.
- Have redundant lighting systems (small backup light, etc.)
- Develop your two handed and one handed coordination skills.
- Combine laser indexing with white light illumination..
- Learn about low light adversity: night eyes, blurry vision, afterglow, off center vision, etc.
- Understand: back lighting, ambient light, shadows, movement, team tactics, communication.

Low Light Operations...laser...officer survival:

- Laser aiming increases an officers field of vision and allows the officer to scan the area for accomplices, weapons and movement while verifiably remaining on target.
- A single aiming index, illuminated, is easier to sustain than alignment of eye, sights and target.
- Non-verbal communication tool between officers. Visible and clear.
- Subject control enhancement.
- Improves officer accuracy while moving.
- Enhances use of cover.
- Allows officer to shoot from unorthodox or injured positions.

Aiming Techniques

Sighted

This requires aligning sights with eye and target in a perfectly straight line. It is difficult especially when moving.
This "threading the needle" sighting method is awkward, difficult to consistently reproduce and necessitates use of fine motor skills.
Sighting produces satisfactory results while training in static environments with paper targets. However, its effectiveness is lost in high stress environments as is evidenced by the police incident hit ratio of approximately one out of every six shots fired hitting the intended target.
Other factors to consider include:

- A high degree of maintenance is required to sustain proficiency with this technique
- Darkness can obscure sight bumps
- Officer may be unable to bring the pistol to traditional sight plane
- Sighting can be adversely affected by eye and vision associated problems
- Method requires a focal plane contrary to the usual threat response, which is to focus on the subject.

Strong points: Sighting system is small, discrete, inexpensive and quite durable. This sighting method is considered usual and customary and is both comfortable and difficult to teach.

Non-Indexed Aiming Techniques

Point-Shooting

This method is strongly advocated by noted authorities such as Colonel Rex Applegate.

- Point-shooting is very quick and adequately accurate with practice. Mostly instinctual, some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates.
- Point-shooting requires maintenance to sustain proficiency and may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards such as footing, angles, height disparities, etc.
- Accuracy in point-shooting is affected significantly as distance increases.
- There is no de-escalation value.


Laser Sight Aiming

Advantages of the laser index include:

- Lack of complicated sight picture found in traditional alignment
- Does not require fine motor skills
- Does not rely on the gross approximation of point shooting.

Laser sights open the vision plane for scanning and assessment of a threat while maintaining subject control. They allow the officer to accurately shoot from angles and positions other than the traditional sight plane.
Laser indexing is very natural and can be used in conjunction with visual sighting and other shooting methods.
Laser indexing is the only sighting method that increases subject control, de-escalates a hostile situation, and enhances officer safety.

LASER TACTICAL ADVANTAGES

Limiting our sighting methods to "head and eyes must be behind the gun", assumes that an officer will never have to shoot from compromised positions or that incoming fire and available cover will not compromise an officers efficiency.

Lasergrips provide options. Traditional sighting is still available when time, distance, cover and lighting is favorable. Most situations do not allow these luxuries. The option of Lasergrips give officers a life saving tool in critical moments.

Tactics

Threat de-escalation.
Lasergrips provide a final less than lethal option in hot situations when an officer is faced with what appears to be his last alternative...firing rounds. Lasergrips are conclusively proving to de-escalate many hostile situations saving departments grief, time, and money.

Rapid first shot.
Because Lasergrips provide a single index sighting reference it is very quick. Traditional sighting is severely diminished by stress. The laser dot yields the longest sight picture available...it puts the front sight on the target.

Life saving auxiliary sighting method.
A downed or seriously compromised officer may not have the physical ability to point shoot or come to traditional sight picture. Lasergrips provide a life saving option.
Reduces exposure when behind cover or tactical bunker. Iron sights only, require that you lead with your head.

Quick and accurate sighting method when moving or in close quarter (non sighted) position.

Visual communication tool. Allows officers to designate who is covering who...or where the suspect is in a crowded environment.
Lasers can designate the location of a hostile threat and help an officer maintain awareness of muzzle direction and safety.

Harley Quinn
January 23, 2006, 01:23 PM
Did you copy this from a site that is selling these?
Good information. Thanks.

HQ

leadbutt
January 23, 2006, 02:41 PM
Well. I must say this whole thread has been refreshing,

Lazer sites, great for training NEW shooters in SIGHT USE, but lousy for "PS", found they tend to look at the dot more then feeling the weapon and the body's index.
Love'm for long guns, and helped the local state prison set up their mini-14 's.

Really on down side I find to them is for left handed operators.

"IT'S JUST ANOTHER TOOL"

Az Qkr
January 23, 2006, 04:48 PM
"Point-Shooting

This method is strongly advocated by noted authorities such as Colonel Rex Applegate.

- Point-shooting is very quick and adequately accurate with practice. Mostly instinctual, some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates.
- Point-shooting requires maintenance to sustain proficiency and may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards such as footing, angles, height disparities, etc.
- Accuracy in point-shooting is affected significantly as distance increases."

Obviously written by someone who DOESN'T know anything about pointshooting who is only stating opinion as fact with an agenda in mind.

The only part of the above quote thats accurate is ""Accuracy in point-shooting is affected significantly as distance increases." which also is true for sighted shooting.

OBIWAN
January 23, 2006, 05:37 PM
"some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates."

What part of that is not accurate?

Or.....in simplest terms....it ain't wrong just cause you say so.;)

Skyguy
January 23, 2006, 05:44 PM
Leadbutt:
Lazer sites, great for training NEW shooters in SIGHT USE, but lousy for "PS", found they tend to look at the dot more then feeling the weapon and the body's index.

Nothing personal, but.....you're joking, right?

You're saying that in a stressed out situation, you would 'feel' your weapon, use your tiny 'sights' and your 'body's index' in a lowlight/darkness shootout......where 70% of all police shootouts take place.

And you see no benefit in being able to single-index aim a dot on a threat from an unorthodox angle or compromised/cover position......which allows an officer to scan the area for accomplices, weapons and movement while verifiably remaining on target.

Or are you talking about shooting paper targets at the range?

....and btw, 'looking at the dot' is the whole point of using a laser sight.

As for point shooting in low light or darkness, it's kinda silly past a close encounter. Accuracy in point-shooting is significantly affected as darkness and distance increases.

Az Qkr:
Obviously written by someone who DOESN'T know anything about pointshooting who is only stating opinion as fact with an agenda in mind.

Brownie, please respond with facts and constructive information.
I know enough about point shooting to stand behind those comments and say that they are 'spot on'.
.

nscale
January 23, 2006, 06:47 PM
My friend is a cop or (Leo), excuss my ignorance, but I am not even sure what Leo means? :o He carries a Glock with a laser.

He is the guy that taught me how to shoot well enough that I feel comfortable carrying my weapon. Thank fully I have not had to use it, but if I did, I have learned enough to keep from shooting an innocent bystander ( I would hope).
I am also confident I could hit my target, because he has taught me not to depend on the sites of the pistol. I guess it is a point and shoot technique. I have spent many hours practicing and will continue to do so because the technique requires practice and is fun as well. I will say that it can be likened to riding a bike. Once I got the idea, it became a natural method.

As I read this post (this vs. that) it reminded me of a story he told me. He was breaking up a fight and found himself on the ground. As he was scrambling he found he was being approached by a guy with gun drawn and poined at him. Still on his back, he pulled his weapon and pointed it at the bad guy. He admitted that if it had not been for the laser he would have probably shot himself in the knee, had he pulled the trigger. Obviously he dropped his leg and the dot landed on the bad guy. Fortunatly the friend of the bad guy who originally knocked him on the ground stepped between my friend and his, to prevent the shooting. Maybe he saw the dot.;)

No one got hurt, but there is no doubt in my mind that my friend could have hit the guy without even looking at his weapon. This is the skill he has been kind enough to pass on to me. There are 2 morals to the story.
1. The laser is a good tool to determine if you have a clear path, and
2. Don't fall down.:D

Az Qkr
January 23, 2006, 08:43 PM
"some point shooting methods might be classified as semi-sighted because of gross visual references and geometric alignment of body coordinates."

What part of that is not accurate?"

It suggests more than one [ by using the word some ] pointshooting methods can be classified as semi-sighted. Thats wrong. I know of three, maybe a fourth, workable pointshooting methods, QK is not semi-sighted, that would leave the other two, maybe three to get to the "some" in that statement.

FAS is not semi sighted pointshooting, thats another one. DR Middlebrooks has a method that is "pointshooting", not called semi sighted pointshooting, that leaves ONE, maybe two.

Quick fire is not semi sighted, I have trained in that system and know it as well as QK. That leaves how many possible known pointshooting methods? Ya, like I said, the statements is wrong, and the person who wrote it has about as much knowledge of pointshooting as I do climbing Mt. Everest. Basically non existant. All that article does is perpetuate misconceptions and make mistatements that others with even less knowledge end up believing is true.

Sorry, not on my watch!!!!!!!! "Or.....in simplest terms....it ain't right just cause some undisclosed writer says so.

No one until Enos wrote of such about 16 years ago had a problem with what descriptors were used to describe sighted [ including semi sighted ], pointshooting [ not using the sights ].

You ARE either using the sights in some way, or you are NOT. Semi sighted suggests somehow visually referencing the sights and is not pointshooting. I find that a gross error, and historically I am correct.

"Or.....in simplest terms....it ain't right just cause some undisclosed writer says so.

Skyguy:

See above on the first, and where this:

"Point-shooting requires maintenance to sustain proficiency and may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards such as footing, angles, height disparities, etc."

is concerned, if you are suggesting that one reqires maintenance to sustain proficiency in pointshooting and that it may deteriorate with disruption of baseline standards of footing, angles and height, perhaps you should rethink your position of "I know enough about point shooting to stand behind those comments", as the above is wrong, and ANY properly trained pointshooter knows quite well.

Have you been formally trained in FAS or QK? What method of pointshooting have you been trained in? Any? There are only a few methodologies that have history of success and therefor are considered reliable or worthy of having in the bag of tricks [ because they are reliable and repeatable ]. Which one were you trained in?

As I know you have mil service, if your background in pointshooting is from that source, it expalins a lot relative your understanding, or misunderstanding for that matter. If not from that source, what known pointshooter trained you in one of the established [ as in historical ] pointshooting methods?

Having been trained in FAS by a direct student of Applegate who is considered one of, if not the knowledge base of the pure method used back then, and having been trained myself by the originator and master of Quick Kill, having used QK for 25 years now, I think I may know just a little more about pointshooting than the average BooBoo out there.

You've mentioned your pointshooting in the past, I think it's time to disclose your formal training and what method that training ocurred in. See, I don't put much stock in people who tell me they pointshoot, or are pointshooters to some varying degree until I can determine just where they learned to pointshoot, by whom, and in what system.

That way, it is easier to also determine just who has some real knowledge of a known and accepted form of pointshooting [ historical in nature ] and who may be lacking in actual knowledge but assumes they pointshoot cause they don't look at their sights or read Enos' work, with it's inherent varying results which further this type of discussion.

Hope that is enough "facts and constructive information" for you.

Robin Brown

nscale
January 23, 2006, 08:51 PM
Az Qkr,
I gather from this post you instruct on Quick Kill (QK). This is new to me. Is there anyone in the Houston area that trains in this or similar shooting techniques?

Can you or anyone recommend any books that explain the different types of point shooting techniques or styles?
Sorry this info may be in another post, I have'nt searched.

matthew temkin
January 23, 2006, 10:28 PM
Start with these..

1) KILL OR GET KILLED by Rex Applegate.
Available via paladin Press or from other internet booksellers. www.paladinpress.com

2) SHOOTING TO LIVE by Fairbairn and Sykes

3) Quick or DEAD by William Cassidy.

4) SHOOTING FOR KEEPS (Video)

The following are avaiable from Mike Rayburn at
http://www.pointshooting.org

POINTSHOOTING (video)

ADVANCED PATROL TACTICS (Book)
Excellent book with four great chapters on point shooting.

Az Qkr
January 23, 2006, 10:46 PM
"I gather from this post you instruct on Quick Kill (QK). This is new to me. Is there anyone in the Houston area that trains in this or similar shooting techniques?"

Yes, thats correct, I train others in QK and hold the registered copyright to the QK with a pistol or revolver technique.

To my knowledge very few have the pure form of QK from Bobby Lamar " Lucky" McDaniel who developed and taught the technique privately with the pistols.

Certainly none trained at his hands are currently training others in QK as I am.

I am engaged in setting up training classes this year and going forward in the future in QK. If you are still interested, email me at arizonaqkr@yahoo.com and we can discuss this off the boards here.

Robin Brown

leadbutt
January 23, 2006, 11:08 PM
Nope not joking ,,just my opinon, and yes you do need to feel your lock point and weapon in the dark,, BTDT

We have used it for training,those whom where classed as untrainable, and did use it to sights, almost as a ball and dummy course

Skyguy
January 24, 2006, 12:20 AM
Az Qkr
You've mentioned your pointshooting in the past, I think it's time to disclose your formal training and what method that training ocurred in.

My 'formal' point shooting training is Army AB; close quarters/hand to hand, bayonet, handgun, etc. It's been 40 years now and I don't have any memory of what was the name of the 'method'.

All I know is that it was instinctive, super simple to learn and become proficient at.

The drill is to focus on the target with 'both' eyes, crouch, raise the pistol to line of sight, cover the target with the back of the slide/barrel axis...and shoot. I'm really good at hitting a 12" circle up to about 30'.

But the greater the distance and/or the darker it gets, the harder it is to stay on target.
Throw in awkward or compromised positions, bad terrain, cover, difficult angles....not to mention the advantage of scanning, target designation and de-escaltion....and I want a laser sight.
.

Az Qkr
January 24, 2006, 12:38 AM
The drill is to focus on the target with 'both' eyes, crouch, raise the pistol to line of sight, cover the target with the back of the slide/barrel axis...and shoot. I'm really good at hitting a 12" circle up to about 30'.

No doubt using that method is good for you after that much time on it, even as it appears to not be one of the more reliable and recognized methods of pointshooting much past 5 yrds. [ I'll explain why later here ].

"But the greater the distance and/or the darker it gets, the harder it is to stay on target."

That may be very true with what you describe.

"Throw in awkward or compromised positions, bad terrain, cover, difficult angles....not to mention the advantage of scanning, target designation and de-escaltion....and I want a laser sight."

That seems like a logical statement to a degree after we understand you were instructed in a technique that requires a croutch [ certain stance ].

As Qk doesn't rely on any croutching or otherwise and can be performed and has been performed upside down and backwards, on ones sides, either side one or two handed [ stance ], can be performed one or two handed as necessary [ angles ], is not in ones line of sight to affect vision [ scanning ], is as easy to identify threats as though one did not even have a gun [ target designation ], and will not be used to threaten but kill when the time is necessary [ de-escalation ], I have to conclude that when you stated:

"I know enough about point shooting to stand behind those comments and say that they are 'spot on'."

That you were talking strictly the method you use, which has no recognition of methodology within the realm of reliable, effective pointshooting. Perhaps you should have stated that you know enough about the method you use and not made the statement using the generic term "pointshooting"

When you stated you knew enough about pointshooting to call the unknown author spot on, I have to believe he has about as much knowoledge of pointshooting methodologies as you do, which is very narrow in scope in reality.

Your assessment is based on what you were shown and do, not on other methodologies that are recognized. Lets keep that straight for the readers so they are not confused when you make such statements about your knowledge of pointshooting.

The presumption you were taught someones idea of pointshooting with a handgun in the army was correct. They have never been able to get the pistol skills right [ with the exception of quick fire ], and it should be noted they never officially adopted any pistol/revolver pointshooting system with the exception of quick fire, whether they trained people like you and called it pointshooting or some other name you can't remember.

Quick Fire is close to the description you provide, and it's strengths are not the equal to QK both in repeatable accuracy nor in the distance it can be employed successfully. QF is reliable but at the shorter ranges, not to be extended past 5 yrds. QK is easily taken to 30 feet with shots staying inside 6-8 inches with ain a short period of time.

Once the QK is learned, it is owned. It is not a skill that degrades over time without practice. The skill does not degrade, ones trigger control, handhold, and other problems arise from lack of practice.

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 24, 2006, 11:44 AM
Az Qkr

That seems like a logical statement to a degree after we understand you were instructed in a technique that requires a crouch [ certain stance ].

Although I did it, I didn't fully understand the reason for close encounter (point shoot) training from a crouch position.....until I started to get shot at....and then I spent nearly every waking moment in a crouch.
Seems like I went months at a time in a crouch. I'd take cover in a crouch, I'd run in a crouch. I'd eat and **** in a crouch. I'd even sleep in a crouch. lol

Thank God, my Army AB instructors had real life combat experience.

They followed a manual, but they also knew what the hell they were talking about. They'd say 'this' or 'that' is going to happen and you guys will respond 'this way or that way'.
They drilled us as though we were their own kids...always saying "you guys will thank me later".

Now I understand that if you don't shoot from a crouch, you're simply inexperienced and clueless.

Anyway, I don't see much value in dissecting and examining the slight differences between all the commercial 'methods', lineage and Brand Names of point shooting. Doesn't matter.

It matters to you because you have an ingrained emotional investment in your particular Brand of point shooting. That's probably why you bad mouth the various other commercial point shooting Brands and laser sights.

But, the bottom line is that I point shoot every bit as well with my military training as all these range commandos out there that tout and brag about their special Brand. I hit the target...from a crouch! lol

Add in dusk, darkness, cover and awkward angles and positions….and my laser equipped 1911 'crutch' blows them away, every time.

:)

Az Qkr
January 24, 2006, 01:13 PM
"Anyway, I don't see much value in dissecting and examining the slight differences between all the commercial 'methods', lineage and Brand Names of point shooting. Doesn't matter."

Of course that statement just reinforces the fact that you do not have a working knowledge of Quick Fire, Quick Kill or FAS, and therefor can't speak intelligently about the differences [ not so slight ] between them.

"It matters to you because you have an ingrained emotional investment in your particular Brand of point shooting. That's probably why you bad mouth the various other commercial point shooting Brands and laser sights."

You sure do like to make assumptions and then state them as facts, thats for sure.

"Now I understand that if you don't shoot from a crouch, you're simply inexperienced and clueless."

Thats laughable at best, and shows others you really do have a limited knowledge base, that being on the ONE method you were trained in.

From QF, QK, FAS, I have many more options at my disposal when I need them. Trained in all of them extensively [ FAS less so ], as well as sighted fire.

"That's probably why you bad mouth the various other commercial point shooting Brands and laser sights."

I haven't badmouthed any other various commercial pointshooting methods. In fact just the opposite. See above. I find value in at least three of the known reliable systems, and can and will use them when they are appropriate.

There are only one, maybe two more that are worthy of consideration. I don't know them so I do not speak with any authority about them. I do speak with authority through a working knowledge of the methods I have trained in and used. Quite the opposite of your posts.

"But, the bottom line is that I point shoot every bit as well with my military training as all these range commandos out there that tout and brag about their special Brand. I hit the target...from a crouch! lol"

Again, you make statements of fact through your limited knowledge. You can not intelligently make the claim you shoot every bit as well as another in anything until you have seen the others shoot.

Look, you were the one who made the case for the laser, in particular these specifically:

"Throw in awkward or compromised positions, bad terrain, cover, difficult angles....not to mention the advantage of scanning, target designation and de-escaltion....and I want a laser sight."

I answered your request for "Brownie, please respond with facts and constructive information." by stating:

"As Qk doesn't rely on any croutching or otherwise and can be performed and has been performed upside down and backwards, on ones sides, either side one or two handed [ stance ], can be performed one or two handed as necessary [ angles ], is not in ones line of sight to affect vision [ scanning ], is as easy to identify threats as though one did not even have a gun [ target designation ], and will not be used to threaten but kill when the time is necessary"

Those are the facts. You made your case for the laser's adavantage based on the above [ croutch/stance, angles, scanning, and target designation ], I responded with what is easily obtainable with QK, therby taking some of those perceived advantages you have over anything else and demonstrating all the specifics are negotiated as well without the laser.

"Add in dusk, darkness, cover and awkward angles and positions….and my laser equipped 1911 'crutch' blows them away, every time."

I'll reiterate what I have written regarding my take on lasers. They are in previous posts. They are limited in scope [ dependant on ones others abilities, great training aids, usefull in lowlight, and good at verifying ones aim to develop certain skills.

Making a case for descalation as you have as another strong point for the use of the laser in a SD situation where a handgun needs to be used, I have to wonder how many times when a gun is NEEDED to defend, the laser will be ised to de-escalate to not having to shoot.

My gun is not coming out unless it is with intent to pull the trigger on someone because thats what is necessary to stay above ground. I do not care to attempt to de-escalate anything when the gun needs to be used as a civilian as some intimidation mentality. That process can likely get one killed IMO.

There's a time for shooting and you get to shooting. I work from a defensive posture as a civilian, not an offensive position similiar to swat or in some instances line officers.

Having been trained in swat and swat commander while carrying a shield, I do know the difference between the two.

You don't seriously think I'm a range commando do you?

Robin Brown

Skyguy
January 24, 2006, 01:13 PM
I found a picture that, although dynamic, is very close to my training to shoot from a crouch.
See the guy on the left.

One foot forward, legs bent at the knees, week hand out for balance, smaller target and always ready to move out of the 'zone'.
(two handed works, too)

Stand up shooters make a nice target.


http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/teamlow.jpeg

Harley Quinn
January 24, 2006, 08:20 PM
I believe when show's like "Cops" are all about drawn weapons and it is on TV and everyone think's, that happens all the time. (it does not)

I believe when a weapon is drawn by a civilian who is trying to impress or trying to stop something from going down, without the ability to justify the shooting is only going to esculate it.

If you put the red dot on someone and it is not proper, and you are not LEO.
Well you better get to a phone quick because you are going to need a good attorney (me thinks)?

Most who post are not LEO and if they are it should be recognized as a different situation. If you are shooting targets and like a laser, good.

I believe one of you needs to allow the other the last word or you will be here a long time LOL...

HQ

Az Qkr
January 24, 2006, 08:38 PM
skyguy can have the last word, no need to keep this running any longer, there has been plenty of good information already discussed and your observations are correct.

Robin Brown

nscale
January 24, 2006, 08:48 PM
Pops always said...

Dont pull it ifin you aint gonna shoot
Dont shootit ifin you anint gonna kill em

Course he also told me God takes care of idiots and Babys, and you aint no baby boy.:)

pickpocket
January 25, 2006, 01:08 AM
Must....keep....it....alive..... :D

Skyguy
January 25, 2006, 11:16 AM
Az Qkr:

skyguy can have the last word

Thanks for the deference, Robin. The last word for this thread is:

Most of the folks and leo's have never had to use a gun with bad intentions and, considering the magnitude of this thread, it seems as though they are deeply curious about what to expect and how to respond.

Well, it's simple. Learn to respond at close quarters (30 ft or less) with sightless and laser dot shooting. Use every bit of close quarters training and every tactical advantage available.
The lasergrips are unarguably an immediate tactical advantage, especially in low light-darknes and awkward, compromised positions!

Point shooting is point shooting. Period. They all work. All variations of that tried and true tactical training are commercial endeavors and sales pitch.
Don't get caught up in the hype and the minute details of it all.

Get a Lasergrip and learn to use it. The learning curve is short and the results are absolutely astounding for the expert and novice, young and old, men and women. Old eyes work again.

There is an immediate decisive advantage with Lasergrips, especially on the self defense side of the coin. That's why they're used by cutting edge and modern thinking U.S. Military and NATO forces....and many law enforcement agencies.

So, too, say these experts below:

Ernie Langdon…..IDPA champion, Marine vet, trainer
Massad Ayoob…..World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert
Ken Hackathorn…..international small arms trainer, author, consultant
Mike Dalton…..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion
Bob Taubert..…Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert
Tom Aveni…..Use of force policy expert, police officer, trainer
Marty Hayes…..FAS President, Master handgunner, police officer
Jim Cirrillo
Ted Nugent…..President of United Sportsmen of America, Author and Musician
C. R. Vanderscoff..…Beretta USA, trainer
Eugene Nielsen…..Investigative and Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor
Michael De Bethencourt.....Staff instructor of the Northeastern Tactical Schools
Denny Hansen…..SWAT magazine
Rich Verdi..…trainer
Bob Scott.....Vice-Chairman of the Board, Smith & Wesson
Wes Doss…..trainer
A'Tow Avon…..American Survival Guide
Ralph Mroz.....Training Director, Police Officers Safety Association, Firearms Consultant and Author
Todd Jarrett…..World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer
Leroy Thompson…..Combat Handguns
Colonel Rex Applegate......

Get on aboard the edu-train. Learn to survive a shootout!

This holds a wealth of information:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/

This tells it like it is:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

Laser Training and Defense Techniques:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

matthew temkin
January 25, 2006, 08:38 PM
If I was to get a laser I would get a Crimson.
The first one that I ever tried was for a J frame, and quite frankly, I did not like it.
Then in a presentation by Jim Cirillo that I took two years ago we got to play with some others designed for larger handguns and I was very impressed.
Intersting list of experts... 2 of them have been my instructors and three have been point shooting students of mine at seminars.
One thing thought..I knew Applegate fairly well and he did not like laser sights for combat.
When I asked his opinion he said the dot was just something else to look for/slow you down.

Skyguy
January 25, 2006, 11:17 PM
in a presentation by Jim Cirillo that I took two years ago we got to play with some others Lasergrips designed for larger handguns and I was very impressed.

Cirrillo teaches his own version of point shooting, but he never closed his mind to the obvious tactical advantages of the Lasergrip. The man has intellectual honesty and it'll serve us all well.
Cirrillo is a man of the 21st century. He's not stuck in the past.

Just place the dot....and you'll hit that spot.

I knew Applegate fairly well and he did not like laser sights for combat.
When I asked his opinion he said the dot was just something else to look for/slow you down.
But Colonel Rex Applegate did also say:

"In my opinion, the S&W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
====================

Re: the crouch
I was in the taught in the Army AB to crouch as a part of close up combat point shooting.
Regardless of the critique here of the crouch….it 'is' a sound defense posture.

Then, lo and behold, I found these pics of Rex Applegate, Jelly Brice and Bill Jordan:

Colonel Rex Applegate In Point Shooting Position
(Note Knees Bent - Eyes On Target - Not Pistol)

http://www.bobtuley.com/applegate_psp_200.jpg

FBI's Jelly Bryce & Bill Jordan of the Border Patrol –
"Gunman's Crouch" and "Standing Tall"

http://www.bobtuley.com/jelly_jordan.jpg

I don't believe any of these guys ever saw combat, but the pictures are interesting.
Applegate taught the crouch....so did Jelly Bryce.

Jordan makes a nice target. :)

leadbutt
January 26, 2006, 03:21 PM
Well Mr.Bryce never talked about being in the service, but if you went up against him ,you where leaving feet first, Mr.Jordan severed in the Marines,and as I have been told, no first hand knowledge,{didn't ask him} he got really good at clearing caves of the Japs.

Of course "combat" and police shootings are a little different:rolleyes:

Skyguy
January 27, 2006, 02:19 PM
The question for all LEOs to ponder is:
At night or in reduced light, are you willing to go up against a bad guy 'with' a laser sight...........and you 'without' a laser sight?

FBI statistics show that close to 70% of police shootings occur at night or in reduced light environments.Just maybe some cop will read these testimonials and get a Lasergrip that will give him the tactical advantage that could save his life.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If I were a police officer today, I wouldn't consider going on patrol or walking a beat without a Crimson Trace equipped firearm."
Jim Cirillo: LE Trainer, Author, Retired NYPD and US Customs, 17-0 Record Against Armed Felons

"I consider my Lasergrips a key advantage that I would not go into harm's way without."
Ernest Langdon: President, Langdon Tactical Technologies, IDPA Champion and USMC Sniper Instructor

"For low light and dark, Lasergrips are a tool that I don't want to be without. By the time I had 300-400 rounds down range, I got to the point where I could trust that wherever the dot was, the bullet would go."
Mike Dalton: IDPA Steel Challenge Champion, Police Officer and Director of International Shootists Institute

"In the past, I had a total disregard for lasers. But, after testing and evaluating them, I now have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on my personal guns. When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant

"I know what the front sight looks like, but in a CQB environment you never see your front sight. Why not superimpose a laser on your threat. I'm 50% faster coming out on target and can outrun my tritium sights by at least 20% in speed and accuracy with Lasergrips."
Todd Jarrett: World Champion Shooter, International Military / LE Trainer

"In my opinion, the S & W J-Frame revolver equipped with this unit has to be considered as the ultimate in a police backup gun or civilian type weapon carried for defensive purposes."
Colonel Rex Applegate

"I have Lasergrips installed on all of my duty/defensive sidearms and consider them to be an essential accessory. Lasergrips can save lives and reduce liability exposure."
Eugene Nielsen: Tactical Consultant, Author, former Police Officer, Contributing Staff S.W.A.T. Magazine Editor

"I carry a Lasergripped Model 442 as a backup gun....."
Massad Ayoob: World Renowned Firearms Instructor / Self Defense Expert

Just maybe........

Harley Quinn
January 27, 2006, 04:21 PM
Hi;

If you look at the way Col R. Applegate is holding the 45 Cal. in his hand.
The picture of him shooting, in uniform. No room for a Laser Grip sight.

I believe the sight is a good one (laser) but I am going to look at the one in the snout.
I said it before and I have to say it again, there is no way my mits and that laser are going to work.
The picture show's, what I am talking about.

I believe that is the reason it is on Massad Ayoob's backup and not his Primary.
Primary is an Auto and his backup is a Rev.. Different gripping technique. IMO

HQ

Skyguy
January 27, 2006, 07:15 PM
there is no way my mits and that laser are going to work.



Sorry to hear that you have such huge hands. How do you pick your nose?

Anyway, a good look at my "crutch" below will show the ample clearance for most fingers between the laser and the trigger. The lasergrips fit and function well for the overwhelming majority shooters. Probably 99% of all shooters.

http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/small/Dsc02922.jpg

nscale
January 27, 2006, 07:23 PM
Very Nice looking Weapon Skyguy. Do you know if they make a set of laser grips that fit the small frame of the Makarov? How much do these babies cost?

Just like Harley, my Son wants the one that goes in the guide pin area for his Glock 23. I can see how your finger would block the laser if you used the index finger pointing method and pulled the trigger with your middle finger.

Az Qkr
January 27, 2006, 07:26 PM
Like AA meetings, one needs to admit to the addiction and be willing to stop voluntarily before anyone can assist them.

Sounds like you could be on the road to recovery admitting you rely on the "crutch" to point the way.:D

I think it's called the first step, probably of a 12 step program. It's a start.;)

"I can see how your finger would block the laser if you used the index finger pointing method and pulled the trigger with your middle finger."

I know of ONE person who seriously considers using the middle finger to pull the trigger. Does anyone actually do that besides the guy who advertises that practice [ he calls it P+S ]?

Robin Brown

nscale
January 27, 2006, 07:37 PM
I know of ONE person who seriously considers using the middle finger to pull the trigger. Does anyone actually do that besides the guy who advertises that practice [ he calls it P+S ]?

It is the way I was taught to shoot :)
I use this technique often but not all of the time. Depends on what weapon I am using. The Point and Shoot stuff works fine for me.

Az Qkr
January 27, 2006, 07:41 PM
nscale:

Are you OKJOE on other boards, is your name John?

If not, there are now two people I know who use the middle finger to shoot.

Robin Brown

nscale
January 27, 2006, 07:45 PM
No I am nscale everywhere.

Hey Az Qkr I sent you an email about your QK classes in the Houston Area and don't believe I had a reply.

I am still interested in this technique. If you are interested I can talk to the BOD at the private shooting club where I am a member and see if they would be interested in having you in. Just a thought.

Az Qkr
January 27, 2006, 07:48 PM
nscale:

Did you send an email to arizonaqkr@yahoo.com?

I didn't get it through my email account, how long ago?

I'll send you a pm here shortly

Brownie

nscale
January 27, 2006, 07:55 PM
Az Qkr,
Yes sir that was the address. Sent 1/24 7:37pm Subject QK instruction.
I will resend now.

Will look forwrd to hearing from you.

Az Qkr
January 27, 2006, 09:31 PM
nscale:

Message received, good talking with you.

Brownie

Harley Quinn
January 27, 2006, 09:59 PM
Like it would not be to much of a problem.
If you do notice though most people do put there trigger finger above the guard and then they would be in the way(finger over laser). But as you have said you can change your style to accommodate.

I am not one who shoots, with the finger above and using the middle finger for pulling the trigger. If you can't see the problem with the picture that I pointed out, then to bad.

I am actually not to keen about picking my nose, thanks for asking though.
But in a needed situation I could improvise.

If you look at the ads for revolvers and the Pistols on that particular grip laser they are quite different. I could use the revolver one but not the pistol.

You were commenting on LEOs and using the laser.
It is a funny world among LEO's you would think as much as they need to stay in shape to do their job, a large amount of them do not.
I believe it is the same thing, if the Department paid for the laser then they would use it, if the Dept. did not feel it was needed, they might not get it.

You are right, most shootings are very close and the laser in my opinion would be good and probably help most person's. But if the Dept. did not think so, why should they???

Funny world, policy will get you killed.

HQ

Skyguy
January 27, 2006, 10:52 PM
if the Department paid for the laser then they would use it, if the Dept. did not feel it was needed, they might not get it.

I've known quite a few cops that bought their own Lasergrips. They want every advantage available.
Besides, they only cost about $200. They cost less than night sights.
But, on the other hand, the Singapore police force bought 10,000 Lasergrips for their duty pistols. Not to mention the US military and NATO and many agencies across America.

most shootings are very close

The closer the threat, the more that practiced point shooting should be used. No sighting method is needed, just point shoot.

But if the threat is out past the length of a car or in low light/darkness or you're shooting from an awkward or compromised position....the laser sight is, indeed, a tactical advantage.

matthew temkin
January 27, 2006, 11:16 PM
I agree with Skyguy 100% on this.
I find lasers more practical for longer range shooting and would prefer to use point shooting up close.
Two years ago I was in Sweden with my dad, and we were visiting my friend who is a police firearms instructor in Malmo.
I got to play with an aimpoint sighted MP 5 which allowed me to make rapid fire head shots out to 25 meters ( Max distance at the pistol range) and then shot a laser sighted SIG 226.
I held the pistol in a two handed grip with the pistol at chest level---Weaver style----and was placing a very tight group in the head at about 12 yards.
Which cause my dad, who is a veteran of Darby's WW2 Rangers, to say.."Gee. I wish we had one of those in Italy."

Skyguy
January 28, 2006, 12:38 PM
I held the pistol in a two handed grip with the pistol at chest level---Weaver style----and was placing a very tight group in the head at about 12 yards.

LEO's: "When searching or clearing a room, the sidearm often needs to be held in a 'retention' firing position. With Lasergrips, I can use the flashlight, protect my handgun and sight my pistol at the same time. There is no need to lead with the handgun as many popular flashlight firing techniques require."
Ken Hackathorn: International Small Arms Instructor and Consultant
-----------------------------------

For target shooting/games: Some folks use the Weaver or Chapman stance....while the Isosceles continues to grow in popularity.

For self defense-tactical: I train the instinctive Isosceles along with the instinctive Crouched (one/two handed).......also from kneeling, prone, side, back, under/over/around cover, strong-weak hand, etc.

It's so incredibly easy to hit the mark from any position/angle with a laser that only minimal maintenance practice is needed.

Below are some positions where a laser sight excels........use your imagination.

http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/prone.jpeg..........http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/laser%20baby.jpg..........http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/law3_small.jpeg

Skyguy
January 29, 2006, 01:39 PM
Live and learn.....and live!

The traditional Weaver is a target shooting stance that has been derived from military pistol marksmanship training. But, it is sorely lacking in the basic fundamentals of training for a close quarters deadly encounter.

The records show that the majority of shootouts take place from about arm's length to about 20 ft. Not 15 to 25 yards.

Therefore, logic dictates one to train for a close encounter by close range point shooting 'and' from the instinctive crouch.
Because, if you are ever shot at, you will crouch!

Both military and leo's....when using their command advantage, superior manpower and tactics and without any shots fired....will use a classic Weaver pose, because that is what their muscle memory has been programmed to do.

BUT, when the role is reversed, and the threat ambushes the military or leo.....the body's natural reaction will take over. That reaction is an instinctive and involuntary response through the autonomic nervous system; the crouch.

In fight or flight mode, the body will instinctively react with a spontaneous reflex; an instinctive crouch.

The next instinctive reaction is to face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

If one is armed and in the Weaver, he will attempt to create distance by pushing his weapon to full arm's extension which, because of involuntary reflex, becomes an Isosceles.

Train at point shooting, use the Isosceles/crouch and get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.
.

Harley Quinn
January 29, 2006, 05:33 PM
First thing that comes to mind is the women has on ear muffs. But does the Child?

It could be a creation just to show the audience that it is effective with something (child, bag of groceries) in your arms etc.. Not wanting to dwell on it though.

Skyguy your comments on the Weaver are good (in my opinion).
It is a good stance (style) but if having many at your disposal, and training in numerous stances (styles). I believe you will go to the one that works at the moment and not some auto reflex. Hitting the ground rolling etc. etc.. Taking cover, the whole package...
The reason for training and more training. Similar to the fight or flight situation...Train and train more. If you are in the job of saving lives, then it should be paramont in your endeavor to be one step in front of the sythe (sickle).

Persons who train more are going to be better at the whole skill of Martial-ist types of activity. Similar to the idea of the laser, it helps the person to become more proficient. (I wounder if they use it in training some and not others, if the group that trained in it would be better?). I believe they do have that class in some of the bigger Depts.?

As to the Department, purchasing the laser (Singapore). I believe it shows how dedicated that particular City is toward the benefit for the officer. To bad, Cities in the USofA are not so inclined. I am sure their might be a few but I bet some group will try and thwart it. :(

Good thread.

HQ

Skyguy
January 29, 2006, 08:08 PM
training in numerous stances (styles). I believe you will go to the one that works at the moment and not some auto reflex. Hitting the ground rolling etc. etc.. Taking cover, the whole package...

Actually, I was talking about a sudden shootout from arm's length to about 20 ft. Statistically, that's where the majority of shootings take place and that's where the instinctive crouch in combination with point shooting must serve as your self defense. (e.g. a leo traffic stop)

If you have the time to hit the ground and roll, take cover, etc....and you plan to continue a shootout....you will thank your lucky stars if you have a laser equipped handgun.
.

Harley Quinn
January 29, 2006, 09:09 PM
The quick draw and shoot is something we tried to avoid. But if you got caught in a situation, well, you were told... Just start shooting.

I believe the laser is a fine tool and the new one on the block. Just like safety belts and other items, next was air bags for there good and bad side effects. But overall it (laser) will be accepted and a very good thing to boot.

Funny we had saps and sap gloves and batons and other weapons. They have gone away to a better sidearm and shotguns, taser's and chemical mace or pepper spray. G men had Tommies and so did the bad guy now we have better weapons.

There was a time when LEO was out gunned and it will always be a seesaw situation.

Look at Iraq, will it really come to our shores?

HQ

Skyguy
January 29, 2006, 11:27 PM
This article is reprinted with permission from Police Magazine

The Great Persuader: The Little Red Dot of a Laser Sight Can Stop the Bad Guy Right in His Tracks

By Sgt. Dave Douglas

Recently on the U.S. border with Mexico, a Border Patrol officer was caught with no backup while facing an angry mob of illegal aliens bent on crossing into the United States.

The Border Patrol officer put out a cover call with a brief sit-rep on his predicament, but cover was about 10 minutes out, and we all know how long it takes for 10 minutes to grind by when we need cover.

As the crowd came to within shouting distance, the officer warned them to stop, first in perfect unaccented Spanish, then English. He was answered by a torrent of rocks and bottles. With this escalation, the officer drew his Beretta 92FS and issued another warning. Regardless, the crowd continued its onslaught.

It had to be obvious to the crowd that the officer was pointing his firearm at them. They were spread out in front and had an unimpeded view of him. But crowd mentality had taken over. They inched forward a step at a time, pausing only long enough to replenish their arsenal of dirt clods and rocks.

The officer's supervisor answered the call for backup, and he, too, was greeted by a barrage of rocks. Now two officers were pointing firearms at the crowd. Only, one of the Berettas was very different. The supervisor's weapon was equipped with a set of Crimson Trace Laser Grips. As he scanned the approaching crowd with his sights, he paused on one of the crowd, stopping the man dead in his tracks.

The young Mexican man looked at the tiny glowing ruby red dot on his chest, let out a yelp, jumped into the air, turned around, ran a zig-zag pattern back to the fence and disappeared under it. The same occurred with the next designee and the one after that. After illuminating the first few and receiving the desired results, the supervisor swept the beam across the remaining members of the crowd, and they beat a wholesale retreat back into Mexico.

A few days later at the processing center, one of the officers recognized one of the first illegals to bolt back when illuminated. Curious as to why the suspect did not respond when he was pointing his weapon at him and why he did respond when he saw the laser, the officer took him aside and questioned the man about his actions.

The illegal alien told him that early in the incident he had the comfort of the crowd. He never realized the officer's gun was pointed directly at him, and it was only after he was singled out by that red dot, that it occurred to him he could die right there and right then. The sobering effect of being starkly confronted with the fact that, within a second or two, a bullet could enter his body right where that little dot was glowing brought his mortality into crystal clarity and overcame the crowd mentality.

I can't think of a better argument for equipping police officers with laser sights.

Laser Critics

Of course, there are those who would argue against such a move.

One of the primary criticisms against laser sights is that officers will become dependent on them, and that their responses will be slower in a gunfight, especially if the sight is not operating properly or conditions are not right for laser sighting. The logic here is that an officer might hesitate if he or she doesn''t see the red dot.

The answer to this criticism is simple. Hardly anyone who supports laser sights believes that a laser should be the primary sight on an officer's pistol. Iron sights on a duty handgun are the primary sighting system. A laser sight is a secondary sight. Officers should be taught to use the primary sight first and then transition to the laser, time permitting.

And the truth is that in many gunfights officers don't use sights at all. Many will tell you afterward that during the shooting all they were looking at was the big gun in the suspect's hand. This is why many agencies teach reaction point shooting for those instances when using any sight at all will be too slow. Equipping officers with laser sights should not change that in any way.

That's the bad side of laser sights. Here's the good.

Target Acquisition

First let's talk about accuracy under stress. Crimson Trace says that out of the seven documented shootings involving Laser Grips 35 rounds were fired with 33 hits. That's a ratio of around 94 percent, and it isn't too bad. The national average hovers around the 20 percent mark.

Shooting experts believe the hit count goes up so dramatically when officers use lasers because the lasers give the officers a tool to overcome the body's physiological response to stress, allowing them to accurately respond. We are conditioned by survival instinct to look at the threat, but we teach officers to look at the tips of their guns. Since we really don't have a choice other than to attempt resistance to natural stress reactions, experts believe it's very beneficial to have a projected red dot in the area we are going to look at anyway.

Another benefit of laser sights is they can't be beat for low-light shooting. In a low-light encounter, at times officers have a hard time even picking up their sights let alone efficiently using them. They will, however, be able to see the laser.

Hitting a moving target is another advantage of laser sights. A medium-sized sheriff''s department on the West Coast has observed that when its SWAT deputies were equipped with laser sights, the deputies shot dramatically better on the move, even when the target was also moving.

Realtime target assessment is another area where lasers shine.

To demonstrate this, try the following exercise. Have a friend stand between 10 and 15 feet away. Now, WITHOUT A GUN IN YOUR HAND, take up a good firearm combat stance, Weaver, Modified Weaver, Isosceles, whichever one you feel comfortable with. Sight over the top of your hands as if you have a pistol and are using the sights. Then have your friend put a hand on his or her belt buckle and hold out a number of fingers. Can you tell how many? Probably not.

Lower your hands about five inches and try again, imagining a little red dot brightly glowing at the center mass of the target. This time you should easily be able to tell how many fingers are being held out. This translates to watching a suspect's hands. Is the suspect pulling out a gun, a knife, or a badge clipped in his waistband? With a laser sight helping you with target acquisition, you may be able to tell the difference much faster than if you were using only iron sights.

Lasers are also an invaluable training tool for helping shooters improve their marksmanship. They can also show new shooters just how trigger finger placement and pull translates at the target.

The Intimidator

Perhaps the greatest benefit of all is the deterrent factor as illustrated in the border incident previously described. None of us really wants to end a life unnecessarily. If given the option, I would much rather take a suspect in wearing handcuffs instead of a toe tag.

This is one of the few areas that I can think of in which Hollywood has done law enforcement a favor. After all those films and TV programs showing a laser dot sweeping a room and coming to rest on the chest of a bad guy, the public has been indoctrinated to recognize this as instant death or the resolution of a bad situation when the suspect throws down the gun, thrusts his hands in the air, and gives up. And the public who has seen these images includes the suspects that we sometimes have to challenge with deadly force.

Here's another example of the power of lasers on the minds of suspects. Officers I interviewed for this article told me about a suspect they had been chasing for about 15 minutes through backyards, over fences, and down to a brackish pond at the bottom of a canyon.

The suspect lay on his back mostly submerged with just his eyes and nose peaking out as in an old 'Lone Ranger' episode. The only thing that was missing was breathing through a reed. Repeated attempts with drawn pistols to get the felon to come out did no good.

But one of the officers was equipped with a laser sight and, when he placed the dot on the suspect's forehead, the suspect gave up. According to the hysterically laughing cops who told me the story, he jumped out of the water looking like a Polaris missile launch with weeds still hanging off his ears.

Justified Expense

Police Budgets are a bit tight right now everywhere across the United States. But when you consider the intimidation factor of laser sights and their ability to prevent police-involved shootings, such equipment can be easily justified.

Run this cost analysis: one laser sighting system vs. one officer-involved shooting. On one hand you have between $200 and $400 for the sight. On the other: administrative leave, Internal Affairs investigation, possibly a homicide investigation, crime scene processing, detective call out, critical incident debriefing, weapons lab work from the crime lab, use-of-force review, Officer's Association attorney, psychiatric counseling, officer leave, citizen''s review board, and civil litigation lasting years.


Sgt. Dave Douglas is a frequent contributor to POLICE and a 25-year veteran of the San Diego Police Department.
This article is reprinted with permission from Police Magazine, online at www.policemag.com/.
.

steve154
January 30, 2006, 09:40 PM
I have been following this thread and got to the range today for a 200 round session with my new SA XD40 and Black Hawk CQC holster to try this QK stuff out.

I started out at home the other day with my finger and then moved to the empty pistol and really was amazed at how this works. When I was at the range today I started out again with the empty pistol and moved to singles and doubles at 20 feet. I was again amazed at how this works. I was firing doubles as fast as ever with great accuarcy. I moved all over the place out to 40 feet and got consistant COM hits firing doubles and triples and doubles at two targets.

The problem I had with all of this was that I have fired thousands of rounds through my G22 duty gun and have always done my own form of sightless shooting inside 40 feet. I wasn't taught it. It just kind of happened and I can hit as fast as I can pull the trigger out to that distance. I had a hard time keeping from bringing the gun up to my line of sight and had to be very conscious of what I was doing. It just didn't feel natural to me as I am so used to bringing the gun up to my eyes. I can see where this would be a great technique to teach to a beginner, but I think that it will take a huge amount of training for me to make this natural. It is something I will mess around with.

Az Qkr
January 31, 2006, 12:09 AM
steve154:

Glad you were able to find value in QK and that it is an effective technique.

QK is a shortcut, and an effective, reliable shortcut.

Robin Brown

David Armstrong
February 3, 2006, 04:28 PM
Double taps, hammers, quick kill, or whatever you choose to call it, will never be better than steady, aimed fire.
But that misses the point of QK, point shooting, or whatever term you use. Of course a nice, steady, aimed shot is going to be the best option. But sometimes that option is not available due to environmental, emotional, physiological, or other reasons. Unfortunately, those other reasons frequently pop up during a gunfight!

matthew temkin
February 4, 2006, 08:50 PM
Hello David!!!
Good point and how true it is.

Skyguy
February 5, 2006, 02:49 PM
Just trying to pass this along to anyone who might seek specialized self defense firearm training. Arm yourself intellectually with the following info. If the following info is 'not' part and parcel of the training....you'll know that training is half-assed at best.

Here's the info:

When you become scared shltless...your body's natural reactions 'will' take over. That is guaranteed.

The first reaction is an instinctive and spontaneous, involuntary response through the autonomic nervous system; the instinctive crouch.

The next instinctive reaction is to face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

If one is armed he will attempt to create distance by pushing his weapon to full arm's extension which, because of involuntary reflex, becomes a part/full isosceles.

So, for worthwhile training, practice point shooting with the isosceles from a crouch.......
and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.
.

Skyguy
February 8, 2006, 01:07 AM
Like it or not.....below is the combat crouch.

The same crouch I learned years ago in Army AB close quarters training. This is the same stance espoused by Applegate and many others that know what combat point shooting is all about.

It is the same crouch that is ridiculed by so-called experts that talk the talk, but have never had to walk the walk.

I post this picture so that those who seek good info will understand that when the shlt hits the fan you 'will' instinctively go into a crouch. You 'will' face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

So practice most of your point shooting from a crouch and squared up to the threat
.....and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.

There ya go...a thousand dollars worth of good tactical information, for free.

http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/small/combat%20crouch.bmp.jpg
.

Skyguy
February 10, 2006, 10:30 AM
This is another picture for those who've never been shot at….including the so-called expert trainers who've mocked the combat crouch.

Some words to the wise:
practice most of your point shooting from a crouch and squared up to the threat
.....and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.

http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/kehoebrothers.jpeg
.

Sweatnbullets
February 10, 2006, 09:24 PM
Dang skyguy you are one presistant son of a gun!:D

Thanks for keeping the post up at the top for me, cause I have some good news. Check out this if you all are so inclined. http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

Skyguy
February 11, 2006, 01:00 PM
Dang skyguy you are one presistant son of a gun!

Just maybe someone here researched and equipped himself with a proven tactical advantage….a Lasergrip. And maybe not.
I long ago accepted the reality that half the people in the world are below average in intelligence.

Check out this if you all are so inclined. threatfocused.com

Thanks for the invite, but I have serious disagreement with some of the expert trainers over there. Don't think I'd last very long. lol

For instance:

1. The mindset from the expert trainers over there is to never present a weapon unless you intend to shoot the threat. How silly!
De-escalation of a threatening situation is often necessary and is always preferable to shooting.

2. Lasergrips are frowned upon and dismissed as a serious tactical advantage in a self defense scenario.....even though they are undoubtedly superior to sighted and point shooting in low light and darkness....where the majority of shootings take place.

2. Some expert trainers there refuse to acknowledge even more of the obvious; Lasergrips are vastly superior to semi-sighted or point shooting from cover and compromised or awkward positions.

3. Muzzle flash is barely addressed by the experts because it is, indeed, a hindrance to semi-sighted or point shooting in low light/darkness.

5. The combat crouch is mocked by some of those expert trainers.

6. etc., etc., etc.

Anyway, here's a thousand dollar tip with a guarantee: Just place the dot….and you'll hit that spot.

.

Az Qkr
February 11, 2006, 02:12 PM
"1. The mindset from the expert trainers over there is to never present a weapon unless you intend to shoot the threat. How silly!
De-escalation of a threatening situation is often necessary and is always preferable to shooting."

Skyguy: You think it's silly? How about reading the text below. I direct your attention to bolded, which clearly defines that one who presents an "intended use as capable of creating a substantial risk to deadly force IS deadly force [ From the penal code of the state I reside in ].

The law involving use of force is very complicated and we have tried to simplify it without sacrificing accuracy.

1. QUESTION: What do you mean by "deadly force" and "non-deadly force"?

ANSWER: "Deadly force" as defined by Title 13, chapter 4 "means force which is used with the purpose of causing death or serious physical injury or in the manner of its use or intended use as capable of creating a substantial risk of causing death or serious physical injury. "Non-deadly force" as defined in Title 13, Chapter 4 "means force used upon or directed toward the body of another person and includes confinement, but does not include deadly physical force.

2. QUESTION: Is there a difference between when I may use deadly force and non-deadly force?

ANSWER: Yes. The law will not allow you to use more force than a "reasonable person" would believe is actually necessary under the circumstances. Generally speaking, a person may use deadly force only when a reasonable person would believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect him or herself or another from unlawful deadly force.

You pull the heat and use that laser to paint another in an attempt to "de-escalate" a perceived threat to your person, you run afoul of the laws and suffer liability.

Why? Because deadly force [ and by extension, threatening deadly force is using "deadly force" by state penal code ], you better meet the several requirements of the use thereof, and the biggest problem you have to overcome is the "a person may use deadly force only when a reasonable person would believe that deadly force is immediately necessary"

You see that word immediate there? You know what immediate means?

When you state that "De-escalation of a threatening situation is often necessary " you infer that you can yank that heater and threaten deadly force [ which is the use of deadly force ], when you are being threatened.

Thats not how the law reads, it reads that you are permitted to use deadly force [ and pulling heat and threatening deadly force with the use of that laser with the idea of de-escalating/defusing the threat is the use of deadly of ], when "a person may use deadly force only when a reasonable person would believe that deadly force is immediately necessary".

There's that word immediate again. I suggest if the threat is such that it requires "immediate" action to stay within the guidelines of the self defense rules of engagement and to meet the laws requirements which are very well defined, any use of a laser in an attempt to de-escalate would not be considered an immediate need to self defense, simply because if you feel you can attempt to de-escalate, it would not be considered and "immediate" threat to your person.

Yes, thats the midset I follow when I state "never present a weapon unless you intend to shoot the threat". Because if I am within lawfulness guidelines to use deadly force, the threat has to present and "immediate" threat to my life.

If it is an imminent threat of grave bodily injury or death to me, I can use deadly force. No, I will not be trying to de-escalate in any way, shape or form. To do so presents legal issues of why I used deadly force [ threatening deadly force by holding a gun on another, laser equipped or not is using deadly force ] toi begin with and brings into question if the threat was imminent and immediate to me for me to do so.

Silly? I think not. I think having worked for attys and the courts for almost three decades, understanding clearly the narrow range of circumstances which allow the use of deadly force makes me more informed about what will get my ass jammed up or what may keep it from being put in a sling by the letter of the law.

Better rethink your position on the de-escalation using that laser. You do whatever you think is best. I will not pull heat unless I am going to fire the weapon. It will be fired because my life is in "immediate" grave danger.

There is a time for talking and a time for shooting. Better know the difference.

"The combat crouch is mocked by some of those expert trainers."

I've not seen anyone state that here. Care to provide documentation of that accusation?

You may have been trained, but you clearly do NOT have a handle on some aspects of this discussion. Yes, we are in serious disagreement on issues in some of these areas. The law supports most of mine, and I'll let others take that for what it is worth.

I don't think you are qualified to be calling anyone at threatfocused silly. Nor do I appreciate it.

I mentioned you could have the last word a few pages ago, but I'll not remain quiet nor civil if you persist in this type of discussion and discord about my character or that of people at my site.

Now, back to your regularly schedule laser advertisements.

Robin Brown

Skyguy
February 11, 2006, 03:10 PM
Let's keep it civil, my friend or you'll get us both gagged. :)

So anyway, you're saying that you've never, ever pulled your weapon except the times that you've 'actually' used deadly force?

I can hardly remember all the times that I've had to intimidate dangerous people into complete submission. But it's been many times in both my military and my 10 years of lawful/commissioned street confrontations.

Question Brownie. Have you ever used deadly force....or have you just practiced and kept your weapon holstered for decades? I'm getting curious.

All the prolific book learning, the imaginary scenarios and the practice sessions are helpful, provide a lot of fun and help some folk to keep an interest in situations that, statistically, are far fetched at best.
But when the rubber hits the road, the average guy that is in fear 'will' pull his weapon and go for the intimidation. A laser just makes it more obvious.

The problem with the 'imminent threat' issue is that you're already half way to dead if you have to wait to fulfill all the minute legal requirements.
Best to get the drop on the threat and tell your own version of things after the fact. Of course, you won't find my advice in a book or at a seminar or at a training session. That might be illegal. It only comes from real life experiences.
.

Az Qkr
February 11, 2006, 03:28 PM
I've pulled a few times as LE and didn't have to fire, held hidden guns on people under countless stops, and I've pulled and fired immediately a time or two outside the LE role. A few more times without having to fire but the gun was stuck under their chins as they were hunting me in dark alleys [ which I had taken them down on purpose ] and didn't see me until the gun was pressed on them [ and the laser, had it been on the gun, would not have been the deterrent to their cooperation at that time :D

Get curious all you want, I'm not posting from my former LE or Military role here, you seem to be from your last post.

You mention your role as LE and Mil service, I'm talking average joe citizenships role and guidelines.

The role of LE and Mil's are not under the same guidelines of the general population as you well know. If one in the general population yanks the heat, they better be following the guidelines of the states statutes as was elucidated in my last post, those are the rules they'll be scrutinized under.

If I am within the law to lethal force self defense, the time for talking is over.

Your posts are read by a majority of people who are NOT LE and/or in the military, please keep that in mind when you post. Your perspective is from a different viewpoint, that of the LE and Mil role.

No need to be having everyday citizens thinking because you, as an LE or under the Mil role, have done something and espouse things in your world, that it is acceptable in theirs.

Robin Brown

Harley Quinn
February 11, 2006, 05:30 PM
Skyguy writes:
Like it or not.....below is the combat crouch.

The same crouch I learned years ago in Army AB close quarters training. This is the same stance espoused by Applegate and many others that know what combat point shooting is all about.

It is the same crouch that is ridiculed by so-called experts that talk the talk, but have never had to walk the walk.

I post this picture so that those who seek good info will understand that when the shlt hits the fan you 'will' instinctively go into a crouch. You 'will' face the threat and push away from the danger trying to create distance.

So practice most of your point shooting from a crouch and squared up to the threat
.....and, if available, get the immediate tactical advantage of a laser equipped handgun.

There ya go...a thousand dollars worth of good tactical information, for free.
>>>>>>

HQ mentions:
The picture did not come up but the post is sufficient. Notice the gun and the position of the head in relation to it.

When you see an animal in the 100yd or 200yd or 300yd range you try and do a sit down or lean against a tree to get a good sight picture the crouch is similar in nature.
You just don't come to the shoulder and stand tall and shoot, or maybe some of you do.
Heck with the laser all you have to do is point and shoot no matter the position if the dot is on the person, at least it is pointed in the right direction.

Then you need to squeeze the trigger and do all the other things you have been taught. The red dot is not a guided point like in other forms of weapons that still miss for some reason.

HQ

Skyguy
February 11, 2006, 07:39 PM
No need to be having everyday citizens thinking because you, as an LE or under the Mil role, have done something and espouse things in your world, that it is acceptable in theirs.

Laws differ from state to state. I say be informed.
But the instinct to defend oneself does not differ....and I'll always err on too quick a presentation as opposed to a delayed presentation.

I always stress that an unjustified presentation of your weapon could become a class 5 felony; menacing, assault, etc., so a bunch of common sense is needed. But along with that I also stress better safe than sorry....or dead. A weapon in the hand is quicker than a weapon in the holster.

But common sense is also needed when it comes to the actual use of a firearm. We all should know that only a fool would 'not' draw his weapon when there is a suspected credible threat issue....whether it's in a parking lot, at home, disabled vehicle, etc.

And as far as 21st century self defense tactics and weaponry goes; I always recommend the undeniable tactical advantages gained by the use of Lasergrips.

As I said before, "I point shoot out to about 15 feet, laser sight shoot out to about 50 feet and sight shoot out to distances that I would tend not to engage unless I had no other choice."

I've also learned that it's tough to convince old timers to accept or try new technology and new methods.
They should learn that Lasergrips are not only superior from awkward, compromised or cover positions, but its been proved that they are superior for dusk to dawn, indoors and cloudy days.
They certainly make old eyes work again. And the laser dot helps to de-escalate volatile situations.

Just place the dot....and you'll hit that spot.
.

Harley Quinn
February 11, 2006, 08:34 PM
That they can pull on anyone and feel that it is their right to do so.

The law of averages will catch up to them though, if they are doing it with any amount of regularity. Most dept's are not concerned if it is on duty and you have a valid reason and write paper work.

But, off duty you are not going to get away with it. So time to think more like a person who just can't do it, unless it is a major case of self defense.

HQ

Mr_Magoo
February 12, 2006, 02:30 AM
Just place the dot….and you'll hit that spot.

WRONG!

After 9 pages, I gotta respond. The CT laser dot does not match the point of impact. The CT laser is mounted to the right and below the barrel.


If the beam is adjusted parallel to the barrel, the beam is already over an inch off the point of impact. (low+right)
If the beam is adjusted to match the point of impact at a specific range, it will be off for all other ranges. (either low+right or high+left)
The straight laser beam does not account for bullet drop.


Granted, a bullet will impact in the area of a laser dot, but not at the spot.

I know it has been asked and answered if you work for CT, so I will not ask that.

Do you own CT Stock???:rolleyes:

Skyguy
February 12, 2006, 10:52 AM
WRONG!
After 9 pages, I gotta respond. The CT laser dot does not match the point of impact.

Picky, picky, picky. :)

You commented on sights, so apparently you totally understand that 'no' sighting system is 100% dialed in at every distance. That is why we all set our sights to the distance that we expect our weapons will be used. Geeeeez

For self defense ranges past point shooting range (which is arms length to about 20 ft), the laser should be adjusted to poa/poi and sighted in at about 40 ft. At that range my lasergripped 1911 will generally group about 3" or less. About the size of your forehead.

True, the point of aim/point of impact might vary about a half an inch every 15 ft. But we ain't thinking bullseye, paper-punching markmanship....are we.

Just place the dot….and you'll hit that spot.

And I 'wish' I could buy Crimson Trace stock. lol

BTW, Mr_Magoo........Are you learning anything here?
.

Mr_Magoo
February 12, 2006, 11:11 AM
Yes, I am.

I am learning not to waste +200$ on a set of grips. :barf:

I am learning about another way to aim that is worth looking into.:D

Bottom line, being disabled I need to pinch every penny. I can either spend +200$ on every gun I own, or spend the same (or less) to learn a method that will work with every gun I own. It is a no brainer which way I will go.:)

Sweatnbullets
February 12, 2006, 12:27 PM
Mr_Maggo, Very good thought process. Wish I would have thought of it.:D

Skyguy
February 12, 2006, 03:10 PM
I am learning not to waste +200$ on a set of grips.

I am learning about another way to aim that is worth looking into.

Bottom line, being disabled I need to pinch every penny. I can either spend +200$ on every gun I own, or spend the same (or less) to learn a method that will work with every gun I own. It is a no brainer which way I will go.

Another way to aim?
If you're going to learn to sight shoot and/or point shoot you're on the right track. Go for it, but be informed that a laser sighted weapon solves many issues you may have...including eye-focus issues.

If your disability prevents mobility be assured that the laser can be painted on a threat from beds, wheelchairs or most cover and awkward or compromised positions. Lasers require 'no' particular stance or form. All other sighting systems have certain poses and form that require consistent practice.
Lasergrips don't. If you can see the threat, you've got it covered.

In low light, darkness and indoor light (past point shooting distance) lasers are the superior sighting system. You can easily aim from your waist or even from above your head if you need to...or from prone, side, back, crouched cover, etc.

Do yourself a service and at least 'try' a Lasergrip. You're the beneficiary. You'll be amazed what this 21st century technology has to offer.

....and you only need to equip one weapon; your self defense weapon.
.

Az Qkr
February 12, 2006, 03:22 PM
"You commented on sights, so apparently you totally understand that 'no' sighting system is 100% dialed in at every distance. That is why we all set our sights to the distance that we expect our weapons will be used. Geeeeez"

I don't see anywhere Mr Magoo had mentioned sights, can you give us the quote in his post skyguy?

"That is why we all set our sights to the distance that we expect our weapons will be used"

First, we don't ALL set our sights. Mainly because fixed sights can not be set except for windage to begin with and many people use fixed sights. Now adjustable sights, they CAN be set, but I have never seen one person reset sights for anywhere near combat distances either, they are usually left alone.

So I'll ask, how you come to state "That is why we all set our sights ?

"For self defense ranges past point shooting range (which is arms length to about 20 ft), the laser should be adjusted to poa/poi and sighted in at about 40 ft. At that range my lasergripped 1911 will generally group about 3" or less. About the size of your forehead."

You set your laser for poa/poi at 40 feet? Why? The odds of you having to use it in a civilian or police setting at that range are slim and slimmer by all accounts. Seems inappropriate to go against the odds on the street to me.

"Just place the dot….and you'll hit that spot."

Seems you have just stated the opposite based on Mr Magoos posting, why are you continuing to use a misnomer like that?

"All other sighting systems have certain poses and form that require consistent practice."

WRONG again skyguy.

QK can be shot upside down, from your sides, standing on one foot, two feet, iso, weaver, one handed, two handed, and does not have any ONE pose that requires consistant practice. About the only way I haven't shot it is standing on my head, but I know it will work if I ever find I need to use it that way.

We've figured out how to run and get 90% hits with QK, what pose would that be considered? I pose the question because you really do not understand nor comprehend what QK is or how it works to be making statements like those above.

Call me silly, but your statments seem geared toward continually pushing the laser on people at considerable expense of others skills.

Robin Brown

Skyguy
February 12, 2006, 04:01 PM
I don't see anywhere Mr Magoo had mentioned sights, can you give us the quote in his post skyguy?

Sure he mentioned sights. He commented on the CT laser sights. You know, single indexed CT laser sights. lol

We've figured out how to run and get 90% hits with QK, what pose would that be considered?

That would be the far fetched and unrealistic pose.
My experience with being shot at tells me that your best bet is to run and dive for cover....unless you're shooting at paper that doesn't shoot back. That could be a cool game.

Just place the dot....and you'll hit that spot. Guaranteed!
.

Az Qkr
February 12, 2006, 04:08 PM
"That would be the far fetched and unrealistic pose."

Really? Interesting that almost every trainer is now geared towards moving and shooting through FoF training, but that is unrealistic to you hey? The more I see of your statements, the less impressed I am with them.

"My experience with being shot at tells me that your best bet is to run and dive for cover."

Really, perhaps thats because you were never trained to move and shoot at the same time. The MODS at threatfocused can run and shoot quite nicely, born of necessity and seeing with FoF that if you don't move AND return effective fire [ like in VN, remember those days? ], you'll likely just die tired.

Running and diving for cover, hhm, thats interesting. I suppose then you would of course bring out that nifty laser sighted death ray and from some awkward position and drill em right?

I was also taught by some of the best to stand and deliver as your best bet. Have the skills to return killing fire immediately, without a laser. Running wastes time you don't or may not have, better to get return fire in their direction and on them than just run and dive for cover.

Andwhat if there is no cover close by, happens all the time on the streets, caught out in the open, you gonna just run and run and run till you do find cover while taking incoming? Not the best of plans or how to train really.

Of course if thats all you know, that all you can do.

I notice you didn't respond to the below question yet, could you take a look again, perhaps you missed it.
_________________________________________________________

"The combat crouch is mocked by some of those expert trainers."
I've not seen anyone state that here. Care to provide documentation of that accusation?
________________________________________________________

Robin Brown

Sweatnbullets
February 12, 2006, 05:11 PM
skyguy, A piece of eqipment will never make up for your obvious lack of knowledge and skillset.

I am also very wary of the fact that your insults just mysteriously disappear, with no edit notations on the bottom of the screen. Who are you really and what kind of game are you running here? You log on and go straight to the insults, then you run 9-10 pages of stating the exact same thing over and over again. That does not work so you go back to the insults. Are you trolling? Are you suffering from OCD? What is your real agenda?

BTW, brownie and I do get hits well above 90% on the sprint. Something you would never be able to do with a laser or any other form of sighted fire. Mark that up as another thing, on a long list of things ,that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Your lack of knowledge and skill set can be a very dangerous thing, if taken by the unsuspecting, at face value.

Mr_Magoo
February 12, 2006, 05:21 PM
Just place the dot....and you'll hit that spot. Guaranteed!

I have already proven that to be FALSE.

The point of origin for both is offset by over an inch (low+right)
A laser is a straight line, a bullet path is an arc
If the laser is parallel to the barrel, the laser dot and the POI will be at least an inch off
If the laser is sighted in to match a POI at a specific distance, it will be off for all other distances.


Do yourself a service and at least 'try' a Lasergrip. You're the beneficiary. You'll be amazed what this 21st century technology has to offer.

I don't need to, I already understand it is a toy. Just another expensive toy to impress your friends with. I ain't impressed. If you cannot control your weapon without relying on a laser, do us all a favor and keep the weapons locked up in the Gunsafe. I don't want to be in the area when you miss.

My experience with being shot at tells me that your best bet is to run and dive for cover....

I would suggest picking better quality friends, or stop pushin' laser sights on 'em . . . :D

While I am on the subject, so far you have either linked to or copy+pasted pert-near the entire CT website on this thread. An obsession to this degree usually means either a financial interest or seeking emotional confirmation that you did not waste money on a new toy.
You say you don't work for CT
You say you don't own CT stock
If you are looking for confirmation . . . I ain't givin' it.

Capt Charlie
February 12, 2006, 05:50 PM
OK gentlemen. Thus far, we have 225 posts that basically state: 1. My apples are better than your oranges (can we agree that, while they're different, they both have a place in the world?), and 2. You've agreed to disagree.

Most of it was done without getting down and dirty, but it appears that's changing, and it's getting entirely too personal.

Robin & Skyguy have both presented some very good training tips, even if they do differ, but I think this thread has about run it's course.

Feel free to agree to disagree.... politely, in a new thread, if you wish, but this one's done.