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Mark54g
December 30, 2005, 10:18 AM
I had a discussion with a friend of mine about guns and safety in general. He believes that rule 1 applies in ANY condition of the firearm.
I politely tried to explain that there is little need to feel that the weapon is loaded after I have disassembled it and am HANDLING it in pieces (as in the barrel is off, the magazine is dropped, etc. He believes the frame (or any part with a trigger) should be believed to be loaded and not pointed at anything that you are not willing to destroy. While I would not point it at a person or animal (for fear of scaring them or developing bad habits), I think its not really relevant.
I understand that we should excersize as much care as possible, but isn't this taking things too far?


Any thoughts?

azredhawk44
December 30, 2005, 10:31 AM
Well, for example my Glock:

When the slide is off the frame, it still could technically be made to shoot. It would be really hard, but possible if a cartridge was in there.

With the barrel removed along with the recoil spring, I don't consider it a gun anymore. Any of these pieces can be held any way I want while cleaning.

Once it is back together, though, it is once again a gun even if not fully assembled.

My revolvers are always loaded. Even when they aren't. But, I have never taken one of them down with the cylinder off the frame and trigger assembly off.

My rule is if a firing pin exists behind a firing chamber, the gun could be loaded.

Dwight55
December 30, 2005, 10:31 AM
Mark, . . . you touched on the answer with "developing bad habits".

Conscientiously, . . . purposely, . . . adamantly refusing to let your guard down at any time: will serve you well handling firearms.

ALL, . . . ALL AD's can be traced back to someone, . . . somewhere, . . . letting down the vigilance. Keep it to the top, . . . you'll stay safer.

Just my $.02, . . . but backed up by all my instructors for the last 40+ years.

May God bless,
Dwight

Mark54g
December 30, 2005, 10:36 AM
Ok, it seems its not cut and dry. I do agree with AZ, though in that when there is nothing to support a round, it is not really a gun anymore (regardless of what the BATF says). I don't make it a habit to be unduly irresponsible with it, but if I am handling a frame while cleaning, and the barrel is in a small box sitting next to me, along with the magazine, there is little likelyhood of discharge.

When the barrel is on (regardless of magazine or ammo) it is loaded and treated as such.

DavidJBlythe
December 31, 2005, 10:53 AM
When you take it down to pieces its not a functioning weapon anymore, really no different than a box of nuts and bots. Commandments dont apply to nuts and bolts.

Shawn Dodson
January 1, 2006, 01:46 AM
Rule 1A: "All gun parts are always loaded." ;)

In training, I've pointed real guns at lots of people and had lots of people point real guns at me.

On patrol, I've pointed real guns at lots of bad guys but I can't say for certain whether or not a bad guy has ever really pointed a gun at me.

RioShooter
January 1, 2006, 02:40 AM
When I'm cleaning my disassembled auto (including firing pin) I still consciously keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

I don't ever want to feel comfortable looking down the muzzle of a gun,

even when I'm 100% sure that it can't fire.

Chuck

XavierBreath
January 1, 2006, 03:11 AM
Here's what Cooper, the man who penned the rules (http://www.lightlink.com/critters/gunsafety.htm)had to say:
RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

There are no exceptions. Do not pretend that this is true. Some people and organizations take this rule and weaken it; e.g. "Treat all guns as if they were loaded." Unfortunately, the "as if" compromises the directness of the statement by implying that they are unloaded, but we will treat them as though they are loaded. No good! Safety rules must be worded forcefully so that they are never treated lightly or reduced to partial compliance.

All guns are always loaded - period!

This must be your mind-set. If someone hands you a firearm and says, "Don't worry, it's not loaded," you do not dare believe him. You need not be impolite, but check it yourself. Remember, there are no accidents, only negligent acts. Check it. Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!"
I thought I might could find a definitive answer there, but alas, it is absent.
except.........
Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it was loaded!" Do not let yourself fall prey to a situation where you might feel compelled to squeal, "I didn't know it could still shoot!" I think that is the answer........

The British Soldier
January 1, 2006, 06:42 AM
Can everyone take a deep breath and take one of the following:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16590&stc=1&d=1136115413

Para Bellum
January 1, 2006, 08:06 AM
...and even if I just had checked 5 times that the gun was empty, I still get a very bad feeling if anybody comes in line with the barrel. I always apply rule #1 unless i only have the barrel in hand, fully dissalembled gun...

DavidJBlythe
January 1, 2006, 10:13 AM
if its in pieces on the table, I'm not worried. Once I begin to reassemble, the safety switch comes back on. I think to myself, "Ok, I'm now putting a weapon back together." When I'm alll done, the muzzle is facing a safe direction.

Mark54g
January 1, 2006, 02:13 PM
David,

That is how I handle the situation. I seriously doubt that having a frame is going to cause a problem. It just FEELS different to me. I try and keep myself VERY vigilant to not point the gun at anything I think would be a danger. When handling, I tend to point to the floor (especially the corner to an outside wall, so that in case it penetrates it will go into the dirt and not into someone or something important). When the barrel is put back on, its a whole 'nother ballgame.