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mikemm
December 21, 2005, 02:28 PM
hey guys,

i ordered some ammo from an outfit called Your American Backyard on 12/13.

my order said among other things "Exception." i never received an order confirmation from them.

the "exception" showed immediatley upon them accepting the order. confusing, eh?

my credit card has been charged. i have emailed them and called them many times since 12/13. no respone.

they have a forum. i cross-posted a few places there asking if anyone else had experienced something similar.

i got this response from a fellow allegedley named Fernando Coelho, an "adminstrator.".

"The intelligent way to handle this would be to contact one of our admins or moderators with your question if you can't get someone on the phone. It is the holiday season and we are swamped processing 200+ orders per day. Feel free to contact me directly via PM or email".

of course i tried to PM and email him but my account has been deactivated. my posting, his response and my deactivation all occurred within 30 minutes. all the other (cross)posts were deleted. maybe i can understand and accept the deletion of the crossposts, it is a waste of bandwidth.

but this guy tells me "PM or Email me" and in short order deactivates me.

anyone here know anything about this business?

what do you guys think?

thanks,

mike

Wildalaska
December 21, 2005, 02:30 PM
File a claim with your credit card company.

WildcaseclosedAlaska

USP45usp
December 21, 2005, 02:48 PM
*hopefully, it was a credit card, and not a debit card. Debit cards have to go through your bank and doesn't have the same gurantees as straight credit card*

But WildAlaska is correct, call the CC company and contest it. Then file with the BBB if they are listed and then send a certified letter to your State's AG office so they can also start an investigation.

Wayne

JR47
December 21, 2005, 03:33 PM
I don't know, but he's the owner of Amback. Perhaps your posting it on most every forum there, and here, and anywhere else you have access to, might have something to do with the decision to deactivate your account?:confused:

mikemm
December 21, 2005, 04:29 PM
JR47,

i only posted in other forums like this one after they deactivated my account on the "your american backyard" forums. and i didn't post on "most every forum there." i posted on four. they have many more.

i crossposted on their forum out of frustration. i wanted the post seen by someone in authority there who would respond. and you tell me mr. coelho is the owner? yippee! i'm glad the owner is aware of what is happening.

i have been trying to get an answer out of these folks for over a week now. i began my inquiries in a nice congenial manner and remained that way until today. but at this point i feel i have been taken advantage of and quite frankly i feel like a dumb ass and i can't even tell you why.

the entire experience has been extremely frustrating.

why should i continue act like a gentleman towards an entity that refuses to even acknowlege i exist after they are already in receipt of my money but won't answer a simple question or two?

i admit i'm a little angry at this point. i think i someone should have responded to at least one of the calls or emails by now, don't you?

in the interim, i was able to find mr. coelho's email address and i wrote to him directly.

here is a copy of the email:

mr. coelho,

i cannot fathom what is going on in your backyard, that is "your american backyard."

i placed order #xxxx on 12/13/05. i received no email verification notice from YAB concering the order. so i went back to look at my account.

it said "exception." i checked with my credit card company and found i had been billed. strange. so i tried contactiong YAB.

i have telephoned and emailed YAB several times. i have yet to receive a response. again, i have left voice messages (i was forced to because i have yet to hear a live human on the other end of the line any of the times i called). and i have not received any replies to my emails.

so i went to the YAB forum and crossposted in a few places hoping to get some attention.

and i did, from you!

"The intelligent way to handle this would be to contact one of our admins or moderators with your question if you can't get someone on the phone. It is the holiday season and we are swamped processing 200+ orders per day. Feel free to contact me directly via PM or email," you said in response to one of my posts.

"yes," i thought. "contact!" for joy!

but when i tried to log on so i could click on your pm and or email tabs, i find my account has been deactivated. futile foolishness on the part of YAB.

the intelligent way to handle this sir, would have been to allow me to pm or email you as you so self-righteously suggested i do. but you or one of your minions deactivated my account so i could not log on in order to pm or email you.

YAB will not answer the simplest questions concering my order and yet you have attempted to take my money. i will not allow it.

i have contacted the cc company and you shan't receive a penny. if the ammo in question is shipped (which i place in the same realm of probability as hell freezing over) send me a ups ticket and i'll fire it right back at you.

i have posted my experience on more than a few firearms forums as a "heads up" for my brothers in arms.

how can you possibly explain the shoddy treatment i have received from YAB? i'm very interested in hearing it.

if you have a rational explanation, i will certainly post what it is on the various firearms forums.

merry christmas,

mike

yes, i suppose the letter borders on rudeness. it's certainly sarcastic. but when is enough - enough?

i work damn hard for my money. they have billed me and accepted payment yet i can get no info from them.

all i wanted to know was:

1. did they have the ammo in stock?

2. if not, would it be back ordered and shipped later?

3. if it was a back order, would they notify me when shipped?

pretty basic stuff. and remember, they already took my money.

what could or should i have done differently?

mike

Mannlicher
December 21, 2005, 06:32 PM
I have always had a good experience with them.

George Hill
December 21, 2005, 07:31 PM
Fernando is a good guy. I've never had any issue ordering anything from him.

I think there is more to this story than is being posted.

rex
December 21, 2005, 07:41 PM
mikemm- I haven no experience with the company, but I am with you. When is enough enough? They may be swamped but it shouldn't take a company more then 24-48 hours to fire back a quick email to let you know what is going on. Even if that email says they don't know what is going on, but are looking into it.

Jehzsa
December 21, 2005, 08:18 PM
Mr. Fernando Coelho was President and founder of Triton Cartridge. Co-developer of the .40 Super cartridge. Very well known ballistics expert. And he usually doesn't carry rudeness in his sleeve. So it is my guess that something else is going on that we are not privy to.

I too would cancel the charges with my credit card company, mikemm. I doesn't seem like this transaction is going anywhere. Btw, did you first try any of these, http://www.amback.com/CustomerService/ContactUs.aspx ?

I believe, from what he is telling you, that this was the crux of the matter, they have a forum. i cross-posted a few places there

Bud Helms
December 21, 2005, 08:27 PM
Fernando IS a good guy and an honest fellow. I helped out on AmBack for a short while. Something is up here.

BTW cross-posting on a forum is really bad form. Don't cross post here.

Fernando occasionally visits TFL and may read this post. Be patient. Also, please remember to be civil if he does post in this thread no matter how you may believe you have been wronged.

Tim Burke
December 21, 2005, 09:19 PM
I've ordered from AmBack, never had a problem. In this instance, something may have fallen through the cracks. In any case, if you paid with a credit card, it makes more sense to cancel the charge than it does to post accusations in a variety of forums.

Jamie Young
December 21, 2005, 09:34 PM
You could have been a bit more polite and posted in the Questions, Sugggestions forum or the Buy, Sell, Trade - Feedback forum on Amback. People make mistakes.


Posting in the Concealed Carry forum, Dean Speir's-TheGunZone.com forum, the General Discussion forum, and now you came over here and posted this in the General Handgun forum.... now I hear it's in the FloridaShooters Network board.

I wouldn't expect any special treatment after this much noise.

mikemm
December 21, 2005, 11:35 PM
jamie young,

i see you have a hot link to something called "backyardoutfitter.com" in your post. any relationship to "your american backyard," the business we are talking about here?

and you "heard" i posted this matter on another firearms forum? how did you come to "hear" it? might you kniow some of the folks involved? you didn't say you read it, you said you "heard" it.

this is no earth shaking matter here, bud. it's not exactly a major news story. how did you come to "hear" it? i'm very curious.

anyway, yes, i cross posted in the AYB forum. i know it's bad form but unreturned phone calls and emails over more than a week's time (the order was placed on 12/13/05) is pretty poor form too.

and, by the way, i did post in some of the places you suggested on the AYB forum.

look, i was trying to get attention. and i got it from the man himself, mr. coelho.

"we're swamped...blah blah. PM or EMAIL me," he says.

when i try to log on to do just that, i learn someone has deactivated my account and i can't log on. this effectively cuts off both avenues of communication he suggests i use.

what a joke but a clever one!

"the PM or EMAIL me" sounds great to those who read his forum. it looks like he is taking care of the problem.

so he makes it appear he is doing something but in reality i now have no way to communicate with him! i'm shut off. and i can't even tell the other members of his forum this because.... i'm deactivated. clever.

remember now, i tried the telephone first and left at least a half dozen phone messages (all you get is a recording) over over a nine day period.

that's one call every other day. i didn't call 10 times a day, just once every other day and left recorded messages because no one answers their phone. what would you be thinking after 9 days of this?

these calls were neither excessive in number nor were they rude in any way. my messages were polite, even the last one i made today.

but after waiting a few hours today for a reply, yep, i got a little hot.

here i am, a customer who has already paid his money attempting to get some simple questions answered.

so, after this completely non-responsive treatment, i just today post a heads up to others on other firearms forums who may be thinking about doing business with them.

i don't see a problem.

and as for as your comment:

" I wouldn't expect any special treatment after this much noise."

i don't want any special treatment. it's gone way too far for them to try to "make nice" now.

i want some answers. if they can't or won't provide them, they should simply tell my credit card company, "whoops, here's his money back."

their silence is inexcusable. screw 'em. they don't need me as a customer, i don't need them as an ammo supplier.

it's that simple.

mike

mikemm
December 22, 2005, 12:10 AM
hey guys,

i just went back over to the ol' YOUR AMERICAN BACKYARD forum.

guess who's a moderator over there?

yep, that's right. JAMIE YOUNG, the same dude who's been posting in this thread about YOUR AMERICAN BACKYARD .

well wait a minute. i don't want to be too hasty here.

i suppose there could be two guys named "jamie young" and one is a moderator over at YOUR AMERICAN BACKYARD and the other one posting here is a different fellow.

let's ask.

hey jamie young that posted a reply here to my concerns with YOUR AMERICAN BACKYARD . you wouldn't happen to be a moderator over there, would ya?

and if you are, why did you not disclose this? not important, right?

just because you have some sort of vested interest in YOUR AMERICAN BACKYARD , even one as "innocent" as being a modertor on their forum, well that shouldn't prohibit you from offering an opinion, right?

i think you shoulda told the folks who are reading this. but that's ok. i told them for you. i know you would have eventually. yeah, right.

kinda cheesy, kinda sleazy, mi amigo.

mike

DonR101395
December 22, 2005, 12:19 AM
[Quote] Jamie Young
"I wouldn't expect any special treatment after this much noise."


I wouldn't expect much business if you can't take criticism for bad business whether it's simply a mistake or not. I don't think expecting what you paid for to arrive in a timely manner is special treatment.

Fernando Coelho
December 22, 2005, 12:42 AM
mikemm – Since after the Thanksgiving weekend, we have been chest deep in orders. That means everyone is scrambling to ship product we inventory ASAP as well as making sure items that are drop shipped do in fact go out the door. During all that, there are orders that for one reason or another do not make it through the system and fall under the “exception” category. It could be that the products you ordered were shown as in stock but in fact were not, or it was a software problem. Regardless of what happened, the person that handles phone inquiries had a message from you and was already trying to figure out why the order did not go through before calling you back. I was not aware of what was going on at that point. Only when you posted seven times across the AmBack Forum about the same thing did I step in, responded to you in one of your threads, and suspended your posting ability to keep you from cross posting in more places in our forum. Then you went to the 1911 Forum and posted the same thing you did on our forum. When they locked the thread, you came here. I’m sure you have gone to other sites as well.

I never received an email from you. However, I did send this email to you…

Dear Mr. Mahan,

One of my staff was looking into the problem with your order after receiving your voice mail messages. However, after your repeated posts on the forum, I instructed her to cancel the order completely. She was going to send the ammunition without charging you for the shipping. After your posts on the forum, that was not going to happen.

Fernando Coelho

For clarity sake, your credit card had an authorization for your order amount but was never settled, or captured as the credit card companies say. The only time an order settles (when we actually receive funds from you) is when our system enters a tracking number for your order and it moves to shipped. When I found your order in our system today, I voided the authorization, thus removing any hold that was on those funds from your card. Once again, we never received the funds since your order did not ship.

I am not here to say what happened with your order was acceptable. It is not. Your actions on the forum are why you were locked out and why your order was voided.

mikemm
December 22, 2005, 12:47 AM
hey guys,

another fellow who has contributed to this thread, one GEORGE HILL, has an email address that contains the word(s) "madogre".

wowie! another wierd coincidence?

there is another moderator over in the YOUR AMERICAN BACKYARD forum called MAD OGRE!

i wonder...... nah, couldn't be, could it george?

mike

mikemm
December 22, 2005, 12:48 AM
edit

Fernando Coelho
December 22, 2005, 12:52 AM
JR47, Mannlicher, George Hill, Jehzsa, sensop, Tim Burke, and Jamie Young, thank you for your support. To everyone, I apologize for not posting a reply here sooner.

Fernando Coelho
December 22, 2005, 12:58 AM
mikemm – If you wish to speak to me directly, here is my cell phone number: [deleted]. Or you can continue to have a temper tantrum here. It’s up to you.


[Cell phone number deleted by moderator.]

mikemm
December 22, 2005, 02:20 AM
mr. coelho,

i shall not be using the cell phone number you so graciously provided. but i do thank you for the courtesy.

i have no desire to speak to you, sir. i fear there is some degree of animosity present which would make a meaningful conversation difficult, if not impossible.

our truncated business relationship is at an end.

and you may refer to my actions as a temper tantrum if you wish.

however, i view my actions (albeit subjectively) as those of a justifiably highly dissatisfied customer.

and your defense of your company's failure at every juncture to respond to what would have been three very simple questions is entirely inadequate, if not misleading, to those who have followed this epic.

you said: "the person that handles phone inquiries had a message from you and was already trying to figure out why the order did not go through before calling you back."

the person that handles phone messages had calls from me on Dec. 13, 15, 17, 19 and 21 (yesterday). i would think somewhere during this time period it could have been figured out.

and even if not, a "we're working on it" call would have been sufficient. i merely wanted some acknowlegement that SOMEONE was aware of the problem.

and you never address the issue of the unanswered emails at all, sir.

you said: Only when you posted seven times across the AmBack Forum about the same thing did I step in, responded to you in one of your threads, and suspended your posting ability to keep you from cross posting in more places in our forum.

yes, you responded. you told me you be happy to discuss the problem with me. you were kind enough to ask me to PM or EMAIL you about the matter.

but then, you suspend my posting ability "to keep me from cross posting in more places in our forum."

well that action also prevented me from PMing you or getting your Email address from the forum because i could not log on.

i must assume this was an unintentional oversight on your part and the old law of unintended consequences took over from there.

it was only after i was "locked out" of contacting you that i resorted to posting on other firearms forums. i thought that might get someone's attention from your company. and it did. yours. again.

you left me no choice, sir. every attempt at communcation with your company proved futile over a 9 day period.

you said: I never received an email from you. However, I did send this email to you…

i never received YOUR email, sir. when did you send it and perhaps more importantly, where did you find my email address? you could not have gotten it from the email you never received from me.

i did send an email to you at: fcoelho@prodigy.net (i hope you don't mind my posting it. you did post your cell phone number here).

anyway, i found this address on another firearms forum. it was in one of your posts which was dated, i believe in 2001 or 2002. it may no longer be valid.

you said: I am not here to say what happened with your order was acceptable. It is not.

ahhh. see, we do agree on something.

you said: Your actions on the forum are why you were locked out and why your order was voided.

it is your forum after all. you can lock out cross posters, cross dressers, troublemakers, chicken pluckers and anyone else you want to lock out. you don't need a reason to take this action. you own the thing.

but as i said before, your locking me out of your forum is one of the reasons, the primary reason actually, why i told my story on these other firearms forums.

when you turned the key on me it prevented me from making contact with you right after you had asked me to do so in order to resolve the problem.

this is where the wheels came off and this whole thing broke down completely.

there were two other reason why i posted this matter to other firearms forums. and remember please, i did this after the "lock out."

1. to see if i could get any feedback about your company. honestly, i had never heard of Your American Backyard before and i wanted to see if others had dealt with you and how their transactions came out.

2. to alert others that something might be amiss. and by your own admission, there were some very significant problems in the way i was treated, or more precisely, ignored.

you said: ...your order was voided.

after today's round of non-resposiveness, this is all i wanted - for my order to be voided. so i guess we are both happy with this outcome.

but please remember, initially all i wanted was the answer to three simple questions:

1. do you have the ammo in stock?

2. if not, will it be back ordered and shipped later?

3. if it becomes a back order, will you notify me when shipped?

and you never addressed why i wasn't able to get those answers except that:

"the person that handles phone inquiries had a message from you and was already trying to figure out why the order did not go through before calling you back."

was this today's message or the one from the 13th, 15th, 17th or 19th of this month? this is where you really lose me. and don't forget those emails although someone else apparently did.

i'm a patient man, mr. coelho, but i have my limits and your american backyard exceeded them.

sincerely,

mike

PS. to the moderators of this forum - thank you for your patience and forbearance. both sides of this epic have been told. you guys have been very fair and i'm glad you allowed mr. coelho and me the chance to hash this matter out.

Bravo.

Fernando Coelho
December 22, 2005, 02:46 AM
The email I sent you today went to the email address you used to register with the forum. My prodigy email address is an old address. The address at AmBack is and has been fernando@amback.com.

I agree with you that your order was handled poorly. Now that this matter has concluded and your trek through cyberspace has ended, I will try to find out who dropped the ball on your order and why they didn't resolve it sooner. Too much time was spent chasing you around the various forums instead of finding the root cause of the problem.

Have a great holiday, regardless of all this.

mikemm
December 22, 2005, 02:50 AM
the same to you of course, sir. and to the rest of the good people who walk the firing line with us.

mike

johnbt
December 22, 2005, 03:05 PM
I just knew it mike, it's still your fault. They were too busy chasing you around the web to return one of your calls and ask you to cut it out. => ;) <=

And a Merry Christmas to everybody.

John

Mal H
December 22, 2005, 05:07 PM
Since this thread started out in Handguns:General, I feel I have a little responsibility for it since I moved it to General Discussion for some visibility.

The proper visibility was given it and the responses have been forthcoming, proper or not, that is not for us at TFL to judge.

I have now moved it from General Discussion to this forum (Retails Deals and Feedback), the proper forum for it.

I have also taken the liberty of deleting Fernando Coelho's cell phone number for obvious reasons, he did not ask me to do it. I figure that if mikemm needed it, he has written it down by now.

mikemm
December 22, 2005, 07:13 PM
jamie young and george hill,

i've been dying to ask you guys a question or two. and since this thing is still "alive," why the hell not, i say.

don't you guys think you should have disclosed your ties to fernando coelho and his company when you weighed in on this thread with your opinions?

a quote from george hill:

"Fernando is a good guy. I've never had any issue ordering anything from him.

I think there is more to this story than is being posted."
__________________
MAD OGRE

mr. hill, as you now know, there was nothing more to this story than what was posted. i told the absolute truth with no ommissions or exaggerations.

now that you're read the other side, mr. hill, perhaps you might retract your implication that i was being dishonest in some way. a gentleman would offer an apology.

speaking of dishonesty, if there was something that needed disclosure, it was the fact that you and jamie young are at the very least moderators on mr. coelho's forum and perhaps have more substantial ties to him and his business.

i asked you specifically mr. young and recieved no reply. one more time, sir.

i see you have a hot link to something called "http://www.backyardoutfitter.com/ in your post.

is there any relationship bewtween this "backyard" entity and "your american backyard," the business we this thread was about?

and you said you "heard" i posted this matter on another firearms forum? how did you come to "hear" it?

might you kniow some of the folks involved? you didn't say you read it somewhere, you said you "heard" it.

this was no earth shaking matter. just a little consumer problem. it's not exactly a major news story. how did you come to "hear" about it? i'm very curious.

a couple of direct, point blank questions for you, mr. young.

do you have ties to mr. coelho and his business? is "backyardoutfitter.com" in anyway affiliated to "your american backyard?"

you guys were might quick to take sides on this issue, but now that it's clear i wrote nothing but the truth concerning this matter you are mute.

how about it, boys? explain your ties to mr. coelho. start with being moderators on his forum and then, explain any other business connections.

jamie, is there a "backyard" connection or not? it's either a yes or no answer.

i want to hear why you guys who blindly supported mr. coelho and his business didn't think it relevant to admit to your ties to him.

that, in my opinion, was dishonest. lies, as we all know, can be told by omission too!

i was the honest one here. you guys lied by omission.


mike

BBush
December 23, 2005, 11:14 PM
I'm with you mikemm, I have no tolerence for poor customer service, especially when you don't have to put up with it. I doubt that they are really that busy, regardless of what they say. Hey, they "ain't the only game in town". I think after one or two e-mails / phone calls, Fernando should have gotten his act together and found out what was going on. Hell, if I was Fernando, I would have sent you your order for free just to get you to "shut up". I went over to their website and didn't see anything that was that special or that cheap. There is simply too many other reliable and cheaper places to spend your money. As the old saying goes, a satisfied customer tells one or two friends while a dissatisfied customer tells ten. I doubt that they will get much business from anyone on any of these boards.

geneinnc
December 29, 2005, 05:50 PM
I live in NC. I was just wondering if this business is mail order only or retail.
anyone know which town they do business in?

birddog1
December 29, 2005, 09:54 PM
the way everyone jumped all over you Mike. I would have been just as upset as you are. Personally, I appreciate it when someone posts on different forums regarding a poor business dealing. It prevents me from having to go through the same thing. As a matter of fact, there is another thread regarding someone who seems to be ripping people off on ebay by selling bogus goods. There isn't one post there about cross posting to this board. Obviously, the ball was dropped by YAB, but what really gets me is they cancelled Mike's order because he had the nerve to complain about not getting what he ordered, how dare you mike