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blob
November 13, 2005, 12:23 PM
:) Any one out there have a good diagram of how to smooth and lessen the trigger pull on a Remington 700?

No Name XII
November 13, 2005, 06:50 PM
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RemingtonTriggers.asp'

Try that. Also, you put this in the wrong forum.

In addition, be careful, and if in doubt, set in a little bit more sear engagement than you get from the above method. Be sure to do all the tests that he talks about after you have gotten it where you like it, and be sure to seal the screws.

Neither I nor anyone else besides you takes resposibility for someone getting killed or injured if you screw something up; if you do decide to mess with the trigger, be aware that the gun could discharge without you pulling the trigger, and especially when releasing the safety. That is why I said something about adding a little more sear engagement. I am by no means trying to scare you away from this (I freakin hate it when someone tells me that I can't/shouldn't do something, and just leave it to the professionals); I am just making sure that you realize that things can happen, and you should be especially observent of "the four rules" after messing with it.

Wildalaska
November 13, 2005, 07:05 PM
take it to a professional

I havent seen one home done 700 trigger job that wasnt messed up

WildeventheproshavetroublewiththemAlaska

No Name XII
November 13, 2005, 07:19 PM
I agree that if he wants the job done right, quickly, and with little pain, he should go and have someone do it. But if he wanted to find a write up so he could learn how, or for the satisfaction of doing something himself, let him do it. It is obviously very important that he understands the potential consequences, but as long as he can deal with them, encourage him to do what he wants. That is, unless he is the blob that posted this (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/860106691/m/939109163) and this (http://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/720100263) on the AR forums; then I want nothing to do with him... In all fairness to WildAlaska, I have been messing with mine, and I can't get the balance between safety and the trigger pull that I want. I have sacrificed some of the trigger quality for a little less of a nagging feeling at the back of my head until I can afford a replacement trigger group. Anyway, I would recommend just getting a jewell trigger and being done with it.

It seems it might be the same guy by the way he starts his posts with a smilie. Seriously, that kind of bigotry is not cool.

918v
November 13, 2005, 08:16 PM
What is a so called professional going to do that he can't? There are only three screws. What's there to mess-up?

No Name XII
November 13, 2005, 08:28 PM
What is a so called professional going to do that he can't? There are only three screws. What's there to mess-up?

He isn't going to mess anything up, it is just that it could be dangerous if he goes ouside of the stock trigger's limitations, which someone that works on the triggers a lot would be able to recognize, while a do-it-yourselfer might not. I guess some people don't realize that the stock trigger can only be adjusted so far while still staying safe...

Also, since I am not a professional, does anyone have a number for what the minimum safe sear engagement on one of these triggers is?

Lycanthrope
November 13, 2005, 09:57 PM
At 3 lbs he'll be OK, but under that and they can fail the drop test. The Remington safety doesn't block the sear although you can see how much engagement you have inteh little hole in the side of the trigger assembly.

Want a lighter pull? Pony up and get a Jewell. You'll get a trigger fully adjustable and your'll have a sear block safety. You can also unload her with the safety ON.

cntryboy1289
November 13, 2005, 10:02 PM
Remington won't warrant the trigger if the screws have been messed with even if done a professional gunsmith. That means that once they are adjusted other than what the factory does, the manufacturer won't stand behind the work done to it.

Now with that said and out of the way, yes, someone that knows what he is doing can do a decent job of it. Most DIY's don't realize when there is a problem and will leave it without much safety left in the trigger. So, if you want to fool with it and feel like you can do it, go for it. Just know ahead of time if you have to send it back to Remington. They will replace the trigger and charge you for it and you will be right back where you started with a poor trigger and money spent to get the poor trigger back.

Might I suggest if you want a really good trigger, buy one that is meant to be adjusted and has the directions on how to adjust it and follow them. There are some that are really good and don't cost an arm and a leg like the Jewel trigger does. Nothing against the Jewel trigger, but there are a good many that will give a trigger pull that is between 1 1/2-3 lbs and are very good triggers for less than a Franklin. You'll spend more than that if you have to send the original back to the factory and have it replaced and then still not have a good trigger.

Here's a link to one of the upgrades that I like to use when I work on the trigger of the model 700:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1642&title=REMINGTON+700+TRIGGER+SYSTEM+UPGRADE

You won't have a warranted trigger anymore, but it will be a safe trigger and low pull weight. You still need to know what you are doing to replace it, but the instructions that come with it will give you all you need to know about it.

Rivers
November 13, 2005, 10:32 PM
What difference does it make if Remington warrants the trigger or not? Remington provided trigger adjustment instructions with their rifles, way back before we became such a litigious society.

You don't need to go to a professional to have a Remington trigger adjusted. Anybody who thinks that only professionals are competent to adjust a Remington trigger probably doesn't know enough about Remington triggers or any other triggers to be giving others advice about their Remington triggers.

A 14-yr-old with moderate mechanical skills and the ability to read and follow simple instructions can properly adjust a Remington trigger.

We're not talking about disassembling and honing any parts; we're talking about adjusting three screws, for crap's sake!

Wildalaska
November 13, 2005, 11:55 PM
A 14-yr-old with moderate mechanical skills and the ability to read and follow simple instructions can properly adjust a Remington trigger.

O yeah, your losing me as a hunting partner :)

In all fairness to WildAlaska, I have been messing with mine, and I can't get the balance between safety and the trigger pull that I want.

There it is folks...I have seen EXPERIENCED (200-500 plus trgger jobs) cursing remington triggers...

But hey, your life, not mine

WildpennywisepoundfoolishAlaska

cntryboy1289
November 14, 2005, 12:14 AM
I'll tell you how bad it is, the guy who taught me how to do triggers told me up front he doesn't work on them, he replaces them simply because he doesn't want to be the one responsible when the guide gets shot in the back on a hunting trip and the guns gets bumped. If you get it too low, the firiing pin will drop when bumped. If you know this going in and want to do the work on it, go right ahead. Just don't fuss at us when something goes wrong and someone's gun goes off at the wrong time.

Like I said earlier, I change out the parts when I work on them and not because I make more money by doing it that way either. I don't charge anything but the shipping on my parts when I do a job to begin with, I only change them so they will be safe at all times whether the gun is dropped, bumped or kicked or whatever.

Do it like you want to, it doesn't make any difference to me how you do it. Just know ahead of time that there have been 700's that go off in trucks and in the woods as well when no one expected it to after having theirs adjusted. If you stay above 3lbs like what was mentioned, you shouldn't have any trouble. Go lower than that and you will for sure have it drop at one time or another. Now that does come from a man that worries about being sued, but not because I don't want to be sued, but because I don't want someone to get hurt in the first place.

No Name XII
November 14, 2005, 12:19 AM
WA, I think it is mostly that people are expecting the performance of a $200 trigger out of a factory stock trigger that seems to be at best a marginal design in the first place. As far as the problems I am having with mine go, if I follow the method that I posted earlier, there isn't enough overtravel to get it to the point that the trigger will even break; I have to back out the overtravel at least another turn to get a reliable break. Not going the way it is supposed to leaves me with serious doubts in my mind, and because of that, I put in a little more of a safety margin by increasing engagement a little and adding a little more pull weight. Hopefully I will just be able to get a new trigger soon and just be able to forget about it. Although, since it is 30+ years old and belonged to a family member that is no longer here, I kind of feel bad about wanting to do that, or even messing with it period, but the screws weren't sealed and were starting to shift a little. I think it would be more of a shame to not use it though. Sorry, a little OT.

As a side note, the only safeties that I would trust to do a safety's job are the ones that block the striker, like the winchesters. If I were doing anything other than punching paper, I would have the bolt shroud replaced with one that has such a safety.

Rivers
November 14, 2005, 11:40 PM
As long as you don't go below 2.5-3#, and you dial in enough engagement, your Remmy trigger will be as safe and reliable as it was when it was set @ 6-9# at the factory.

If adjusting a Remington trigger were so difficult, all those guys @ benchrest.com and varminthunters.com wouldn't do it every day.

Ifishsum
November 15, 2005, 03:39 AM
I've adjusted a few and can tell you they are touchy. It's a very thin line between removing the creep and having too little sear engagement making it unsafe. If you decide to try it, test your adjustments many times by slamming the bolt shut, dropping the butt on the floor, smacking it with a rubber mallet and flicking the safety (rifle empty of course) and if the pin drops on any test, increase the sear engagement. Adjusting triggers is serious business...err on the side of caution.

cntryboy1289
November 15, 2005, 04:43 AM
One last post on this matter and I will hush on it. Yes, there are lot of folks that do adjust the triggers of their model 700. Some do it very safely and some simply don't. The one thing about this rifle is that it doesn't block the striker in any way. Add to this a trigger that can and will dump the sear will cause an accident very quickly. You have been warned about it and know if you do this, things can and do happen very quickly and without warning.

Like what was said, if you stay above 3 lbs, things should be fine for you. Use a trigger pull scale to make sure. All of the folks in the world could do this and not have a problem and you could do it and have one so you be the judge of whether or not to do it own your on. It is up to you to check it as many times as it takes to make sure it is safe.

Harry Bonar
November 15, 2005, 09:29 AM
Shooters:
I am now involved as an "expert" witness (an "ex" is a has been and a "spert" is a drip under pressure) :D in a trigger matter trial where the Browning lightening 30-06 blew a kids foot off because of a trigger adjusted too close. The safety was a trigger/sear block and had just enough movement to set it off when pressed on safety.
It is clear that even with a striker block that if taken off safety fast it, too, could go off!
CNTRYBOY1289 has the right idea - do not adjust without knowing what you're really doing!
Harry B.

Jaywalker
November 15, 2005, 10:18 AM
The Rem trigger is a fundamentally poor design that cannot be safely "improved;" it should be replaced instead. It has a part that other triggers don't have - the "connector" - which helps make them crisp at the expense of functionality. It was originally designed for bench rest rifles and was adopted without change into a hunting rifle.

This "connector" is the subject of more problems for Remington than any other item they have. An internal memo from around 1980 shows that the design is unsafe, yet they knew it and chose to keep it. This is only a partial "bubba-izing breaks it" issue, as the internal memo estimated that even unaltered, they could expect 1% of the rifles to experience a "Fire On Safety Release" condition. This condition most often occurs when the trigger has been pulled while on safe, then the rifle fires when the safety is let off. (Historians will recall it was 1982 - 1983 that Remington changed the action to allow unloading the rifle while on safe.)

Part of the difficulty in adjusting a Rem trigger is that the three screws are not all of th eadjustment that you need to consider. That's easy and is well understood by competent gunsmiths. What is (nearly?) impossible to see is the extent to which internal friction has to hold the parts and when they should release.

One percent of 4 million rifles is quite a number. It therefore doesn't make any difference how many people we know who say, "I've had one for years and it never went off!" Any Remington I have will have the trigger replaced, not "improved."

In addition to this, it makes sense to keep the original trigger in an unaltered state, since you may need to return the rifle to the factory. If you return an altered trigger, they will "fix" it back to factory spec, and likely charge you for it. With a replacement trigger, you can pop out the replacement, pop in the original and send it back.

Jaywalker

blob
November 15, 2005, 10:50 AM
:) Understand the need to be careful when working on triggers and I don't want a hair trigger anyway. I smoothed out the trigger on a Ruger MK 77 Mark 2 and it really helped. I had it down to about 4 lbs and left it there. Bumped it real good after and I never had any trouble with it. Any thing like this if you haven't worked on, don't try it-uinderstand. Thanks
And as far as the wrong forum goes, I just got on this one and have to find my way around. But thanks again!:) :cool: :) :) :cool:

blob
November 15, 2005, 10:59 AM
:mad: No name, I was on the AR for awhile but never posted a damn thing about the Remington 700 trigger. I have done quite a bit of work on rifles over the years and simply wanted to look over a diagram. Explain yourself to me when you say you don't want to have anything to do with me. Hell you don't even know who I am or anything else. Explain your self son. :o

blob
November 15, 2005, 11:02 AM
:) Hey thanks Rivers for telling it like it is. :) :)

Fremmer
November 15, 2005, 11:34 AM
First, I don't think that Blob posted on the wrong forum. He wanted the opinions of those who know about adjusting triggers, and he has received those opinions.

Adjusting a Remingon trigger via internet instructions: the instructions are certainly there. I chose to take my Remington to the Smith for trigger adjustment anyway. I did this because:

1. I don't know the gentleman who drafted the instructions. He probably knows his stuff, but then again, he could be wrong. Even worse, I don't know what is going on even while following the instructions; I'm not real clear about the interaction between the three screws. I'd just as soon have a Smith who knows his stuff do the adjusting!

2. I was only charged about $50.00 for the adjustment, which seems like a very reasonable price to pay to a Smith who actually knows what he is doing, and who will do it safely.

My Smith made the same comment as Countryboy: he was unwilling to adjust the trigger to less than 3 pounds, which was fine by me for a hunting rifle.

blob
November 15, 2005, 02:55 PM
:) Thanks for all the info on the 700 trigger. I have looked over the data and see where it is a lot easier than some I have worked over. But I am in touch with a custom gun maker and going to get his imput. he usually will adjust one for about $20.00. I see where it would be easy to do and right now I have almost 8 LBs of pull. Want it down around 5 or so and polish all moving parts. Good info, thanks. My hardest trigger to get down was a 7.7 Jap. It took awhile to get it from 11 to 4.5. But at 4.5 it would go off if bumped real hard on the butt. So had to raise it back to 6 and it works real good.
To Camp dog on the private message I understand about the deep spiritual problem with those that call you a lier on a public forum. Thanks for the kind words as you know me and how I try to help everyone I can.
Thanks

blob
November 15, 2005, 03:01 PM
:) Hey thanks for the info on the rplaceable parts for the 700 trigger. May be the way to go. Thanks again!:cool:

blob
November 15, 2005, 03:12 PM
[SIZE="5"]:) Hey rivers you make a real good point about the Remington 700 trigger being adjusted by bench shooters every day. Some people because they can't do some things, become frustrated and believe that no one should do it. I agree if you aren't sure then don't do it. And also notice how the remarks become off the wall like: "trying to get a 700 trigger to act like a $200.00 replaccement"? I know what I can do and not do, no my limitations but do alot of simple things that others say can't be done or shouldn't be done. Anyway enough on this and thanks again. Will have it fixed by tomorrow one way or another.:cool:

blob
November 15, 2005, 04:29 PM
:) :) Just a finishing note to the thread. I called John Kammerdeiner at Kammerdeiner Custom Guns. He builds some fine rifles including Marine sniper rifles and has retired snipers try them out. He told me that he could fix the Remington 700 trigger for as low a pull that I wanted for around $30.00. So guesss where my rifle will be tomorrow? Thanks all and good shooting!

No Name XII
November 15, 2005, 05:17 PM
Fremmer, it was originally in the handloading and reloading forum, which was the wrong forum. And blob, my only beef is if you are the one that posted the threads in the links I gave. If you aren't then I have no problem.

Fremmer
November 15, 2005, 09:19 PM
Weeell, I guess I'll have to admit that it might not belong in the handloading forum.........:o

blob
November 15, 2005, 09:39 PM
:) :) Well I decided to go ahead and adjust the trigger on my Rem 700. After reading the directions it was quite simple and wasn't near as hard as some I have worked on. First thing I did was check the stock trigger pull and it was a shade under 8 LBS.Then I read the directions several times through and highlited the areas showing adjustments of the screws. Then I made sure I had the proper screw driver which was in my set of Chapman gun screw drivers set. This is a must as the screws are small and are sealed with sealer. I took the stock off and removed the bolt. I cleaned all the sealer off and the screws were easy to move. I followed the directions and set the pull at 4 LBS. Then I tried all the safety guides and everything worked real well. Now all I have to do is to get some sealer tomorrow and seal the screws real good.
It was easy to follow and it came out safe and sound and I saved $30.00 for the gun smith to do the same thing I did. If anyone doesn't understand the directions you might not want to do it but anyone who has worked on rifles and is very responisble won't have any problem at all. All Remington did was adjust the spring tension and the over travel down until it was set at 8 LBS. I like a 3 1/2-4 lb pull and it came in fine. Could have went lower but left it at 4 lb.

blob
November 15, 2005, 09:43 PM
:) Yeah this was posted in the wrong place sorry about that. :cool:

Wildalaska
November 16, 2005, 12:51 AM
And have you tested it for slam firing :confused:

WildwithamalletAlaska

blob
November 16, 2005, 07:51 PM
yeah the trigger has been tested real good. I have redone triggers before and this one is about the easiest to set and still be safe. Same procedure the smith uses unless someone want's a real light (ounces) pull then he addes some things. But this is just simply adjusting for a lighter pull from 8 down to 4.

cntryboy1289
November 17, 2005, 09:23 PM
The problem comes in when folks try to adjust the trigger to where it has very little engagement on the sear and the pull weight is down below 3 lbs. You should be fine where you are at. I might add that although what you did is very, very easy, the trick comes in when you are trying to get the pull as low as it can go.

I use a Bold Optima trigger a good bit of the time and with it, the trigger can be adjusted down just like the model 700 is. It is simply a better trigger that won't jar off as easily as the model 700 trigger does because it has better parts in it like the ones I suggested to you. If you want to go lower with it, I would suggest looking into changing them out.

USAPatriot
December 30, 2005, 05:10 PM
An old thread...but FWIW, Jewell in my Remmy is set at 4oz. It's a bench gun and no way would I actually walk around with a trigger set at 4oz, but for that 4oz it's as safe as it's going to get. The Jewell very nicely solves the problems and arguments. Sure, it costs more than a few pennies, but what's a human life worth? -Rod-