"fit" for combat

[porkskin]

just curious what your thoughts were on exactly what one's base level of physical conditioning should be. a guy we work with here who served in prison claims being able to run a mile and bench press your body weight would get you out of most jams. i figured he'd seen more jams than i. but what are you guys thoughts? i was thinking 3 pull ups, 30 straight push ups, and a mile run (not jog) should be baseline. comments?

[spacemanspiff]

what kind of combat? like shipped off to the sandbox combat? or fight off the hordes of crackheads and homeless and violent criminals that await you around every corner combat?

in any case, i simply dryfire for my physical fitness. i do it until i reach muscle exhaustion. :D

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Is it what your body should be? Or what your body weight is? :D

I can easily bench and pull up what is should be! What is actually is - well, then I would be really strong. :D

[Dragun]

before i joined the army, i made sure i could do the minimun PT requirements. i think it was 40 sit-ups, 40 push-ups, and run the mile in less than eighteen mimutes. i weighed about 205 at 5'9". even got my long hair cut off before i joined. doing the minimum once a day seemed easy. once i got into basic, after about 2 weeks of double timing and "drop and give me fifty" all day everyday, i was reduced to not even being able to the minimum due to arms, legs and every other muscle being turned to rubber. after about about 5 or 6 weeks of this, i had went from 205 lbs to 165 lbs of lean mean fighting machine. at this point we litteraly did hundreds of push-ups and sit-ups no problem everyday. running a mile in less than 12 minutes. 3 pull-ups? try 25 for a minimun. climbing up 25 or 30 feet of rope using your legs is rough, let alone straight up without your legs. main thing i think we were being taught was agility and stamina. mostley stamina.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

What will get you out of most jams is the ability to see it coming before it gets to you, therefore, eat a lot of carrots! Situational awareness is everything.

[rapier144]

Having the ability to carry your as* out of a hot firefight and E&E would be a more than welcome strong point. It is better to have that ability and not need it than need it and not have it. 3 miles under 30 minutes in basic combat gear. By basic i mean weapon, ammo,com gear.,water.Adernaline comes in handy at that point. Fear is one of the greatest motivators that you can get

[ISP2605]

Run a mile in 18 minutes? Good grief! You should be able to make that time at an easy stroll. Even a 12 minute mile is nothing to write home about. That can be done at a very fast paced walk. You're probably thinking 1.5 miles. That would put a 8 minute mile for 12 minutes. 18 minutes could almost walk 1.5 mile.

[rapier144]

I thought it was a little slow myself but it made feel good about my 10 minute mile.LOL

[Dragun]

yea, now that i think of it, average walk is 3 miles per hour so that is 1 mile every 20 minutes. i'm pretty sure it was 2 miles in eighteen minutes but we were doing it in 12 or less (in other words the slowest guy was 2 miles in 12 minutes). if a guy/guys fell out, others would have to carry him over the line because we left and arrived as a company.

hey, it was a long time ago and i forgot my discaliamer: memory not as good as it once was.:D

[rugerdude]

Yeah, he's probably thinking 1.5 or 2 miles.

I would like to think that i'm fit, I can bech press more than I weigh (of course....i'm only 150 lbs.) and can do 15 pullups, but I never do sit-ups, I don't see the point really.

6.5-7 min. mile.

I think that's sufficient for the everyday horde of crackheads.

However, when I enlist in the Marine Corps, I have a feeling that I won't feel quite so fit anymore.

[bclark1]

dragun, you sure you didn't mean eight and not eighteen? that's a heckuva long time!
i'm looking into marine officer programs after grad school and i'm planning on doing my 3-miler in under 18 minutes, something i had no problem doing back in high school but think i'd struggle with today. i can still run forever but i've slowed a bit without those speed workouts.

i think "fit for combat" depends on where you're at. most medium frame guys, fatties or crackheads i wouldn't worry too much about holding my own, but the ripped guys could probably chuck me around. so i'd say i'm "fit" for where i'm at now... if i was in prison (not that i ever intend to end up there) i'd have to say my definition of where i want my strengths to be would change.

[losangeles]

i was thinking 3 pull ups, 30 straight push ups, and a mile run (not jog) should be baseline. comments?

Hey, those are pretty pathetic. A third grader girl can do that.

Richard Marcinko was saying his Seal team could average 500 lbs bench press. Being a powerlifter myself, I think he's exagerrating. I'd believe if he says average about 400.

OK, I'll play. If you don't want to be out-physicalled by 95% of opponents, try these numbers:

400 lbs bench press (doesn't matter your body weight; too bad if you're small)
600 lbs squat
135 lbs strict curl
shot put 16 lbs - over 40 feet
4.6 in the 40 yard dash (4.5 or lower is better)
5:30 in the mile (don't need competitive times)
marathon - just finish under 5 hours (don't need competitive times)
25 pull-ups
60 push-ups --- in 60 seconds
60 situps --- in 60 seconds

I pulled those push-ups/situps numbers from back when I was competing in Marines physical fitness competitions back in high school. The athletic stuff -- just from athletics -- if you're gonna out-physical 95% of opponents, you need high performance numbers.

The better Seal team guys should be able to do the above. If you can pull those numbers, you've got potential to outman a vast majority of people.

[BreacherUp!]

Porkskin, strength and endurance are the two keys you're looking for. Powerlifting is great for quick, short bursts. Running/swimming and performing grinders are the best way to go. Most of the selection/schools, etc I've been to, the guys who can have the strength to perform excercises after running and doing calisthenics for an hour are the guys in better shape.
Combine running with push-ups, squat-bends, abs, sprints/stairs, pull-ups, dips. You can find these circuit areas in most parks with running trails. There is 500# bench press shape, and there is 100 push-up and run for another hour shape. Combat stresses are an accumliation, which means long periods of time. Stress burns out power quickly. Strength/Endurance training gets you through.

[rapier144]

Iv'e read marcinkos books and i thought he said they was benching 400lbs for 50 reps.Thats still alot to do straight. if you seen some of his videos of red cell the one on the plane in the door way had some arms on him

[459]

400lbs for 50 reps...no way..that is total crap...

[rapier144]

could be but i think thats whats in his book

[IZinterrogator]

I just looked in Red Cell, when he gets "recalled" by the Navy, he had been pressing 350 pounds for 30 minutes, and he did 20 reps while talking to the Navy guys that came to pick him up. Of course, it is a fiction book...

[Twycross]

I'm not sure if you can set a real line as to whether or not you are fit "enough" to make it out in one piece. For example, I am 5'7" and 140 lb. Not very impressive. But I can easily pass the 3/30/1 mile standard. Maybe double it, certainly triple at least with the pullups. I can bench-press my body weight. Am I fit enough? Maybe. On the other hand, I know a guy who almost certainly couldn't pass. He's even overweight. But at 6'5+" and at least 250 lb, is he better off than me in a fight? Probably.


Hey, those are pretty pathetic. A third grader girl can do that.
In today's society, I seriously doubt that.:D :barf:

[threefivesevenmag]

I think it is important to have cardio stamina, not just brute strength when it comes to physical conditioning.

I believe if one can last three intense boxing rounds that last three minutes each without much fatigue, then they are above the curb in most areas.

Physical conditioning should be a priority when it comes to fleeing a fight or just being in hand-to-hand combat. At my gym, it is funny to see the guys who only come in...don't stretch...and then power lift everything with bad form. They might be "big" but they don't ever do cardio and someone of slightly equal size, with a good understanding of fighting could easily drop them.

That being said. I'd say having a routine would be good.

*10 minutes of warm up cardio/stretching.

*Weight lifting concentrating on certain muscle groups on certain days. No over kill needed if you don't want to. Lift what is healthy and comfortable for you.

*30 minutes of cardio (running, walking brisk, eliptical machines, rowing, any physical activity.)

*Abdominal Exercises for your core.

*10 minutes of cool down/stretching.

*Mix in a decent diet and a good amount of sleep.

If one kept this up 4-6 times a week for 3 months they'd see some great results. It's hard though, with family, work, friends, and just relaxing time. If I could only do one bit of physical exercise I'd just do cardio.

Oh well, this is what I do and try to do. It really has worked. I'm 6'1 and 235lbs. Not a "pro" at anything, but I enjoy working out and getting my energy focused. Now if I could only balance it out better during snow in days and holidays.

PS: Twycross, being fit and small doesn't mean a bigger guy has an advantage over you in a fight. Honestly, smaller guys have less to lose and usually fight harder as they are not trying to impress anyone...but trying to make it out alive. Fighting is a reflex kind of thing, much like trigger control. If you practice enough, in a physical confrontation, the reflexive odds are with you, even if you are down because of the reaction curve. It's why we stay alert! So don't doubt yourself man, size can help...but it's not even half the equation. Now numbers...that can be a problem.

[otasan]

I'm so out of shape that when I die, I'm going to donate my body to science fiction! :D

[seb5]

I would'nt worry so much about numbers in and of themselves. I would strive for balance. When I was younger I worried about the 350 lb. bench. Other than bragging rights it really did'nt mean much. Obviosly stronger is better but don't give up your aerobic ability for the strength. If you make a point to do some form of aerobic activity 2-3 times a week and a reasonable program of resistance training 2-3 times a week you'll be more fit than 95% of the population. Being fit is really not a piece of the survival puzzle, it's a prerequisite. It enables you to do everything else to a higher degree. I follow the above mentioned program and at 41 I'm always in the top 3 for PT scores in my military reserve unit of about 75, regardless of age. From the military standpoint my goals are for a 10 minute 1.5 mile run and 100 push ups and sit ups in 2 minutes each. For my personal goals I am satisfied with a 24 minute 5K run and a 300 lb. bench. FWIW I'm not a big guy at 5-9 180. Good luck and remember the real key is just to do something.

[Massan]

Its all about supporting your body weight and how well you can mange. Do stress reps, they work best imo.

Max pushups in 1 minute(Marine pushups for strengthing wrist also)
Max situps in 1 minute
Max pullups in 30 seconds(Drop all the way down and up again)
Jog in place for 2 minute(Lift your knee as high as you can)
Max flutter kicks in 1 minute(Keep your toes pointed straight up and your knees locked)
Shark swim for 1 minute(Think superman stretch, cept you raise your arm and leg alternatvly. Ie, left arm/right leg and right arm/left leg)

Do all that continusly(sp) without stopping for half hour and you got a pretty decent workout. Granted you actually have to want to do it inorder to get any benefit, else your just wasting your time.

[H&K4Life]

Hey porskin a good base for upper-body pushing strength is always at least being able to bench your body weight. The real question is....what do you do from there. It sounds like you are just looking for a OK level to "sustain" and not worry about improving. The thread title says combat, but I dont think you are really talking about combat. It sounds like you just want to feel comfortable in your ability to handle yourself in a street fight. If that is the case, then benching will not do t he job for you. Flutterkicks will not do the job for your. Pick a fighting technique.....any fighting technique, and do whatever exercises that are encompassed in that technique.

Even in the Military, the physical fitness test doesn't really say much. It may be a good indication in your ability to carry out your combat mission, but in the end, if you can't move with/operate the equipment that you are given, you are combat ineffective. No matter how many push-ups, pull-ups, 1.5 / 2 / 3-mile run, dead hangs you can do. None of these tests are designed to test your heart/will....that which makes you do what is needed in the face of danger.

I also think that people use the word "combat" toooooo loosely. Combat means killing someone for an objective. Fighting in the streets and operating in combat are two very very different things. Maybe if more people actually knew what combat involved, they would be less apt to plunge into a war.

(ohdeargawd...you guyz made me start preaching!!)

[model 25]

I am 55 now and have worked in enviroments that have been real hard. I am no warrior as far as training but have kept myself fit and challenge myself to test my abilities. I am nobody special and I am just like any one of you.

I have been tested under fire but none of my strength or agility was needed like you see in the movies. You get shot at by gun or by bomb and you just make what decisions that are available. You will do what you have trained yourself to do if your courage doesn't fail you under fire.

Train hard but don't hurt yourself doing it. Injuries last forever. My 2cents

[model 25]

One more thing I ought to add, Your size and strength are not always what is going to keep you alive. I have seen women 5foot 8 120 pounds win fights against attackers with AK 47s and RPGs. She was in a guntruck with the convoy and when she cut loose with the 50 cal it made us all happy. None of the men she killed even knew who did it.

Then we went out with a different group and one of the guys on the gun truck was so scared he never fired a shot. Hell everyone was scared and with good reason. Some of the guys come into unloading and they had unexploded RPGs stuck in their trucks.

If your gonna fight then you better be willing. There are alot of good men over there, much better than I am and I hope you you all realize what they are doing for you whether you agree with the war or not.

I am not special and deserve no allocades so please just take this for information and move on. (edited to say) I just worked over there to help in the fight, I am no hero. It's the military that deserves the real thanks, God knows they kept this old man alive.

25

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Model 25-hope you're back from it, and if so, glad you are. If not, hope you and your buds are back soon. I get my kid back in 65 days, give or take and provided the bad guys don't get overly rowdy. He's a combat medic in the
3rd ID runnin with the grunts. He'll tell you that he's just doing his job like you and most of the others-but if it weren't for all of you guys doing your job, from delivering the mail to delivering hell to the other side, somebody's not comin home. Good job, and thank YOU!

[HighValleyRanch]

Ah, Master Pai Mei says:
an ounce of knowledge is worth a pound of muscle.
A pound of muscle is worth ten pounds of fat.

[Dragun]

so... watch out for the little guys who are all muscle and have a brain!

[goalie]

The Marine Corps told me that for max points for promotion I needed to be able to do the following:

1. Run 3 miles in less than 18 minutes. (6-minute miles)
2. Do 20 pull-ups.
3. Do 80 sit-ups in 2 minutes.

I was able to max the PFT every time, and, IMO, the run is what mattered. If you can run 6-minute miles for 3 miles, you are going to be in shape. Period.

It is my belief that running is the most important skill to have. Mainly to get away from the fight in the first place....

:p

[Dragun]

so... i think we're back to stamina. :D

and Rugerdude, (i love my Ruger too) i think you better get used to doing sit-ups.

[springmom]

...but somebody in a wheelchair can be just as tactially prepared without being able to "push" anything but themselves. It's what's between the ears that matters most. If you want to get into hand to hand combat, I'd go spend a few years in martial arts. You'll get good conditioning, quickness, and the moves you might need. If you want to stay OUT of trouble altogether, common sense and a quick mind are the primary need, backed up by sufficient firepower. Nothing is 100% guaranteed, but as the pen is mightier than the sword, the brain and the tongue can often be mightier, quicker, and safer than the brawn.

My highly overinflated $.02., from a middle aged lady that pushes....grocery carts. her children to do their laundry, and the choir to get to practice on time.

Springmom, waiting for the dog to come back in at 3:53 a.m.....

[porkskin]

i said baseline! i would wager i'm in better shape than most anyone on this board. 6'0'' 175lbs. 100 straight hindu squats. 1 mile run 6 minutes and 45 seconds. did 39 consecutive dips last week. i wasn't asking for myself, but rather to see what shape you guys kept yourself in. also losangeles, richard marcinko is a liar. westside barbell club doesn't have that many 500lb benchers and they are the strongest gym in the world. it is completely unrealistic to expect someone to bench 400lbs. that would be "elite" powerlifter status for anyone under 200lbs. just stupid. i can bench 225 lbs for 2 reps by the way. that is the test for nfl players so i think anything more than that is just risking injury and is a waste of effort. this was a tactical forum and dern if the powerlifters didn't go all "t-mag" on us. matt furey's combat conditioning is a much better route for average people to get in combat shape. my $.02...

[zirkel]

Uhm, Porkskin... You might be surprised by who follows this board (5:22 mile). Check out my other sport: http://www.usbiathlon.org/ (and yes, I wear spandex)

I should also add "good for you" for keeping yourself fit!

[ISP2605]

I have 2 guys who work for me: 1 benches 565 and the other 535.
The 565 guy is a gym rat. 5 hrs a day in the gym. No other life other than work and gym. He did a demo at a high school for where he benched 235 for 62 reps.
The 535 guy was U of IN football team captain, had been drafted by Dallas but blew out a knee in training, and his dad played for Dallas and Pittsburg. The guy's mom has bigger hands that I.
Both are big ole boys. They got that way naturally - good genes and lots and lots of gym time. Getting uniforms to fit and look decent is a job for the tailor. Just too much upper bulk and body taper.

[Mike40-11]

As far as fit for combat goes, stamina and endurance are most definitely the key. The NUMBER ONE indicator of survivability in combat is your level of physical fitness. Being more fit lets you perform better and, at least as importantly, gives you the strength and reserves to recover if you do get hit.

A couple years ago, when it became apparent I was going to be taking a trip to the desert I finally got back into regular workouts. I don't have and equipment so I just went with pushups, situps and running. (What can I say, I'm unimaginiative) :rolleyes: After several months I got up to around 75 pushups, 90 situps and and 2 miles in ~14 minutes. I'm mid 30's. I actually put on weight doing it, but slimmed down a bit. Had I NOT done this I very much doubt I would be here. I did wind up spending quite some time in the hospital, losing about 50 pounds (among other things.:) )

I can't emphasize enough, if you expect to be heading to combat, get in shape!. Don't worry about how much you can lift, reps, etc, just work. Most especially, run or do some other cardio for endurance.

[Eghad]

for combat duty stamina and endurance are the keys....including mental endurance
you dont fight in PT uniforms and running shoes.

when I first enlisted there was no such thing as a PT uniform and personal hygiene time....

you marched out to the PT field in your OD Utilities, grounded your hat and uniform jacket. performed physical PT, came back put your hat and jacket on and went to breakfast and then to work....lol

Now I retired.....my knees are shot so I dont do any running. In fact I dont do much at all..lol. need to start back excercising..lol

However on Sunday I spent 11 Hours removing trees and sawing up a 3 feet in diameter oak tree using sledge hammers and wedges and chainsaws....so I guess I am still in decent shape.

[k9lwt]

Something that is overlooked is athleticism. I have seen huge gym monkeys taken down by little baseball players because they didn't have an ounce of athleticism. I don't care how much you can bench, squat, curl, etc. If you are goofy, you are going to lose. I strongly recommend training in empty hand combat, martial arts, defensive tactics, etc. Not many people fight on a regular basis unless it is your hobby or profession. I would say that for the average Joe to get out of the S#@t, you need the right mindset, common sense, and some athleticism.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying to hang out on the couch all day and eat doughnuts. It's important to be physically fit-whether that's 30 min. of cardio and a little weight training 3x a week or going to the gym everyday. It's also important to know what to do when you need to do it.

[porkskin]

i agree with k9. i also will add that if you don't know any submission grappling/brazillizn jiu jitsu, that you should get a little more familiar. being on the ground with a good grappler is like being drowned by an alligator if you are inexpirienced. and western boxing beats mcdojo tae kwon do any day of the week. i just thought we'd dicuss what level of fitness you guys feel like you should keep up.

[rapier144]

You'll are right when you talk about athleticism you look at who passes bud training or the ranger qualification they aren't that bulky at all. Also anyone try free running that takes a little bit of athleticism in it self.

[losangeles]

I agree completely with the athleticism proposition. It's not completely size. You rarely will have a 250+ lb athletic guy. Most elite level athletes are in the 190 - 225 lb range.

I still go back with my earlier proposition. Remember, I wasn't talking baseline -- I was talking being able to outman over 95% of potential adverseries.

No, 400 lbs bench for a 200 lb guy is not elite. I'm a powerlifter, I know. I went 418 lbs at 198 lbs in competition and won a national bench competition -- but that was for an older age group. The top guys in their late 20's to mid 30's were doing over 500 in the mid divisions. And the 220's were getting close to 600's.

But back to the athleticism proposition. Many of those powerlifters can't run well. That's why I propose minimum 4.6 on the 40 yd dash (that's not world class, either), and the long distance running.

You can easily get guys like the profile I mentioned in most Division I & NFL football programs -- look at the running backs, receivers, outside linebackers, safeties. I was a recruited for Div I as a safety, and can say that profile is a dime a dozen. Again, I'm talking about being able to out-man over 95% of possible opponents, not baseline for the average Joe.

But I'd apply the same tests for the average Joe, with baseline marks being lower (with the exception of the long-distance running which I'd have to say should be the same).

[losangeles]

Actually, there's a good way to gauge stamina and athleticism --- a certain type of obstacle course. Problem in describing it is that the numbers (times) wouldn't mean anything.

I remember at Annapolis (Naval Academy), there's this course that takes about 3 minutes for a good athlete. Climbing up large walls, moving on your belly, balancing on beams, swinging a rope, etc. If you can beat out 80% of the other guys, you're pretty fit, I'd say.

There are other obstacle courses in the services that are also good gauges. At the Academy there were a few guys who went Seal later, and they have a realistic obstacle course that's also a good test. You beat out half the guys there (all Seals are fit), you're fit.

[USP45usp]

When in the AF, I loved the muscle bound folks, slower than all get out when it came to getting the heck out of dodge, gave the enemy something else to shoot at while I booked it outta dodge (just in drills, I wouldn't live a person behind in real combat).

At a flat out dead run, I could do the 1.5 (that's all we had to do when we were doing the run before it turned into the bike) in about 7 min (I know, slow by Army/Marine standards) but the "muscles" couldn't do it under 8 (I forget but I think we did have a 12 min time frame).

Or they could do the "girlie" (ducks real fast :D) thing and do the 2 mile fast walk.

Granted, at the end of the run it took me a couple more minutes to compose myself and fully catch my breath but I figure, if you need to get out of dodge, a fast jog just isn't going to do it, a good fast run, that may just save your life (or may not).

But in civey life, I can't do that anymore and I'm not muscle bound either. So the way I look at it:

1. Can I at least run at full speed to cover up to .5 miles away?

2. Can I do so while carrying an 8lb AR (on the back so it doesn't weigh as much), 1 can of ammo (in an ammo can, about 500 rounds boxed, over 1000 unboxed).

3. Can I do #2 while having either a shotgun (4lbs+) or a pistol (28oz) in my other hand?

Granted, I won't be all that fast but it's a plan. I do get funny looks in the neighborhood through when I do this :D

But, the fact is, I can't. My muscle mass and the muscles in my legs/arms are slowly being eaten away so my plan is this, hunker down and stand my post.

Wayne

[Hollywood D]

18 minute mile lmfao, you could do 2 miles in that time. I did the mile and a half in 13:21 at 7200' altitude last month.

I work out every week and aerobically train also.

[roscoe]

400 lbs bench press (doesn't matter your body weight; too bad if you're small)
600 lbs squat
135 lbs strict curl
4.6 in the 40 yard dash (4.5 or lower is better)


Yeah, that's pretty funny - with those numbers you could be an NFL linebacker.

[model 25]

Couple more things to think about, I can't think of that multi million dollar football players name that went to Afganistan with our Army and got killed. He was in the best shape possible.

If your in a fight that has gotten down to fist,feet and teeth your strength will come in handy. But you might look at all the ways our men get killed in war and ask yourself how many got to use their muscle.

http://icasualties.org/oif/Civ.aspx

There is an old saying "train hard , so you will make a good looking corpse":cool:

As I get older the training I do is to shoot the enemy and the better and faster I can do it the less likely he will shoot me. You won't stay in physical shape forever:D

Sorry if I have offended anyone.

25

[Powderman]

Posted by Dragun:

before i joined the army, i made sure i could do the minimun PT requirements. i think it was 40 sit-ups, 40 push-ups, and run the mile in less than eighteen mimutes. i weighed about 205 at 5'9". even got my long hair cut off before i joined. doing the minimum once a day seemed easy. once i got into basic, after about 2 weeks of double timing and "drop and give me fifty" all day everyday, i was reduced to not even being able to the minimum due to arms, legs and every other muscle being turned to rubber. after about about 5 or 6 weeks of this, i had went from 205 lbs to 165 lbs of lean mean fighting machine. at this point we litteraly did hundreds of push-ups and sit-ups no problem everyday. running a mile in less than 12 minutes. 3 pull-ups? try 25 for a minimun. climbing up 25 or 30 feet of rope using your legs is rough, let alone straight up without your legs. main thing i think we were being taught was agility and stamina. mostley stamina.

OK. This is before you joined the Army.

Hundreds of pushups each day?
A minimum standard for pullups?
Climbing a rope with your legs?

What MOS are/were you?
Where was Basic and AIT? Did you do them separately, or were you OSUT?

Running a mile in less than 12 minutes? I should hope so.

What was your score on your last APFT? Just curious.

[porkskin]

hey losangeles, i hope to gosh that 418 lb bench wasn't with a shirt. bragging about lifting with gear (support gear that makes you lift more to everyone else) on a thread about combat fitness would be hilarious. i am sure you are strong in your raw lifts too though if you can shirt bench 400, but you see my point.

[losangeles]

Yeah, ok, porskin. I like just to chat in these forums b/c it's fun.

Alright, I fess up it was with a shirt. It does make a big difference I admit. But also, the rules are strict in competition (you bring it down to chest and can't lift until the judge gives the signal). A lot different than touch-and-go like everybody does in the gym. That pretty much offsets the poundage on the bench, if not more so.

But, ok, I do touch-and-gos all the time. I cycle 10 - 12 weeks before competition, and go strict with a shirt only the last couple weeks before.

I believe the bench press is a basic thing to do for preparation in any activity -- sports, martial arts, combat. The only resistance in the sports world I found is in boxing, which I used to do from my early teens to mid-20's competitively (not pro). Too many old school trainers and managers who are against it.

[Powderman]

Oh, Dragun? Still waiting...

When was your last APFT? What was your score?
Where exactly did you have to climb a rope hand over hand without using your legs?

And exactly where are pullups required as a part of the APFT?

I do know of one place where pullups are required--but nowhere near 25.

By the way, one mile in 12 minutes won't even let you graduate Basic Training.

Again, no flame intended. Just curious....

Yours,

Your friendly neighborhood Powderman
(former) SSG, USA

[greeneggsnham]

Ok. We are talking stats. I got in a weird situation. 19yo, I joined the Navy. The first week or so, the "Seals" came around and asked for volunteers for the Special Warfare program. So, I volunteered and entered the Dive Fair program and was doing well enough. Then they told me I had to relenquish my guaranteed "A" school, as they did not use Cryptologists as Seals. I searched within myself and decided that if I dropped my guaranteed A school and didn't make it through BUDS, I'd be a paint chipper, haze gray and underway with no designation. SO, I refused to drop my guaranteed contract and was forced to leave the dive fair program. Well, things get weird here. At the end of boot camp I was supposed to go to Intelligence School in Pensacola and instead was told that I was going to an Army Post up North. ***? So, another fellow and I that were heading into Naval Intelligence that were both in the DF program got sent to an Army Intelligence School for almost a year, and spent a few months of that time TAD to a Special Forces training unit. It isn't even in my records and the only proof I have of it is going to the troop medical clinic in my med records. What I'm getting at is that going in I weighed 225lbs and when the SF unit kicked me down to 180lbs, I could shuffle 20 miles with no trouble. Before that I could bench 370, squat 600, and leg press over a ton and I could run several miles. After getting chewed up and spit out, I lost perceived strength, but my whole body was stronger instead and I could go forever. Winding up in the Middle East in an intelligence capacity, I had to do intel work for an actual Deployed Seal team. In reality, they were nothing like Marcinco's books. Most of them were fairly small guys that were built like rawhide. No bulging muscles, just wiry strong little bstds. The largest one weighed maybe 170 and he was an officer. No Arnolds or Rambos. Just strangely silent scary little guys.

[porkskin]

losangeles, you are a man for admitting the shirt bench thing. you should also be proud of that total at your weight. also, as a powerlifter, don't you think the deadlift is a better indicator of overall body strength as virtually every muscle is challenged? just curious. someone with your total poundages opinion is imporatant to this discussion

[CobrayCommando]

500 pounds and 50 reps? Why carry AR-15s when you could give an M2 .50 caliber a pistol grip and carry that as your primary, and have a CAR-15 as your pistol. Instead of a flak jacket you could use an outward facing claymore as body armor...

As a self destruct feature to prevent capture by the enemy you could keep a ball of plutonium in your ass and initiate a fission reaction by tightening up...

What a crock, to claim that everyone in his unit or whatever could do that.

[losangeles]

don't you think the deadlift is a better indicator of overall body strength as virtually every muscle is challenged? just curious.

OK, I'll give you that. You're right about that actually b/c the deadlift involves more of the major muscle groups.

When I answered the topic, I was looking for easier activities to measure. Activities that most people have done, or could go and measure.

If you max on the deadlift, it's one of the most body-stress things you can inflict on the body (assuming you're maxing). The back feels like it will snap, guts feel like it's going to spill out of the azzhole, the bar feels like it'll rip your thighs. Most people don't deadlift. And if someone new tries to go and max out the first time, even if they're athletes, something bad will happen -- they will likely get injured. For most people, you can't just set this up as test -- unless you have the technique and training, serious injury will happen if you test your limits.

There's some horrific accidents that can happen with a loaded bar when you're in max mode. Even something like the bench press, the bar doesn't have to fall on you. Your pec muscles can just unroll off the tendon -- sproinggg! --- like a rollaway window blind. It's pretty gross, actually.

[CobrayCommando]

Lets not forget about that distended rectum thingy that can happen...

Apparently you can strain so hard your intestine can pop out or something like that, and you have no anus left. Also theres the famous incident of a female weightlifter straining so hard fecal matter shoots out and imbeds itself into the floor.

Overall not the healthiest sport. Above a certain point do you really need that much strength anyway? Is it worth not being able to wipe your butt cause your arms are to big.

Rhetorical question.

[greeneggsnham]

I wound up becoming the detachment p.t. instructor for our three companies up at the fort. For combat, escape and evasion training, we totally ignored weight training. Basic pushups, crunches, jumping jacks, ropes, mountain climbers, different leg and torso lifts, and resistance training, pull ups and rotations and stretches, swimming and shuffling our butts into the dirt is all the conditioning you need. To me, weight training slows you down where it matters. I weight trained, and as a 230lb lineman ran the 40 in only 5.3, but after getting out of the weights make you stronger mindset, the above circuit is what we conditioned to fight and run with. For our combat purposes, it was our thought to forget the high weight low reps, and work out with lighter weight, higher reps if you're going to use weights at all.

[k9lwt]

Model 25:

The NFL star turned soldier was Pat Tillman. He played for the AZ cardinals before becoming a Ranger. He was killed in a firefight while on patrol in Afghanistan by "friendly fire".

[losangeles]

Apparently you can strain so hard your intestine can pop out or something like that, and you have no anus left. Also theres the famous incident of a female weightlifter straining so hard fecal matter shoots out and imbeds itself into the floor.

Not a pretty sight! Can you imagine the look of the spotter's face -- the spotter who has to stand behind? I'm sure it's not a straight spray directly to the floor. Some of that stuff has to spray straight back, I would think.

[Hollywood D]

lmao that's funny

[Eghad]

in addition you also need mental toughness and endurance. So when you push your body to the peak and its telling you you cant go on.....you can get that extra you need.

[stratus]

Incidentally, I'm a certified personal trainer, and if anyone needs advice on strength, conditioning, etc., just PM me. I'm not going to go into a definitive post on the subject in this thread, because once I started, I don't think I would be able to stop typing. It's a VERY broad topic. But seriously, feel free. If I can help, I will.

[stratus]

Most people don't deadlift. And if someone new tries to go and max out the first time, even if they're athletes, something bad will happen -- they will likely get injured. For most people, you can't just set this up as test -- unless you have the technique and training, serious injury will happen if you test your limits.

What my buddy and I did, we'd deadlift every other week, and we'd usually do doubles, so that we weren't quite maxing. For instance we'd squat every Monday, but deadlift only every other Friday and give the posterior chain a break. This left benching for the middle of the week. Also we would cycle the poundages (most people fail to make gains because they attempt a max lift every single time they train, rather than cycling their training properly and in a progressive manner).

I think the correlation between deadlifting and training injuries is probably due to the sheer number of people who do it incorrectly.

Occasionally we'd do suspended-chain Good Mornings instead of DLs. But, due to the nature of the exercise, we never went much over 405 lbs.

The Good Morning (GM) is used by a lot of Westside Barbell trainees, and is widely regarded as one of the best exercises for the posterior chain (which is very important in the squat or deadlift). I'm sure Losangeles knows what I'm referring to, but for those who don't know, you take the bar on your shoulders as you would with a squat, but instead of dropping down into a full squat, you keep your knees slightly bent and bring your torso forward until it reaches between a 45 and 70 degree angle from upright, with the back kept straight. (You don't want to bend to the point that your torso is parallel to the floor, but you do want to bend forward a significant amount. Because of the law of individual differences, you have to get a feel for it.) The suspended-chain version of the GM is when you hang the bar from the top if a lifting cage using a pair of chains, and start in the low point of the exercise, so that the eccentric (lowering) portion of the movement occurs after the concentric (lifting) portion, rather than the other way around. Anyway, it's an excellent movement to include among the staple exercises, besides the squat and deadlift and their variants.

[gdeal]

Oh yeah sure, back in the day, run this push up that. Now I will have to rely on shot placement and superior fire power.

[stratus]

Oh yeah sure, back in the day, run this push up that. Now I will have to rely on shot placement and superior fire power.

I've known one or two people who were very fit in their 70s and 80s. You'll have better coordination, better muscle control, better shot placement, and a better ability to cope with stressful situations if you exercise, regardless of age. Exercise increases your chances of survival, any way you look at it.

[guntotin_fool]

I am recovering from a torn hip capsule, but before that, i was skating in competitive mens hockey at least twice a week, usually three times a week. doing that I got to be in very good shape cardio wise, minute or minute and half shift, heart rate to 180 or so, sit down and by the time i am to go back out, maybe a minute or so later, heart rate back down to 70 or so. always been strong but never weights strong, the bench always hurt to much.

I used to hang around with two verified former SEALs and ex special forces/green beret. not wanna be's but real live guys who I knew who were coming out or still in when i was back in grad school. the special forces guy was a medic(not sure the actual MOS) but he was going into public health/epidemiology, said that after seeing what he has seen, it was his duty to America to try to prevent what he had seen happen in other countries. Both SEAL guys getting advanced degrees in languages and politics. The physiques were all similar in nature, my wife called it "ropey"
lean to a fault, good muscles tone, durabilty and endurance to the extreme.

to read some guy who says you had to be NFL lineman big, linebacker fast and bulky clearly does not know what he is talking about. Muscles that size are pure calorie burners. Do you really know what the calorie count is for a guy who is 290 and doing that kind of wieght work? I have a friend who's son is playing big ten football, he is 6' 4'' 295, and he eats something like 7000 calories a day to keep the wieght on, and nearly 9000 when he is bulking up before the season.

it is nearly impossible to consider a fighting man who could carry that much calorie intake, and still be fighting fit. All three ofthe guys i know are light for their height. the tallest is about 6' 1'' 185? or so. both the others are 5 10 ish, 160 ish. but tough as nails. all of them. but they seem to be able to hold that wieght in conditions that are adverse. all three were just over 30. the oldest was the medic and he was out, 15 or so years in, he was still getting paid by the service while he got his degree but was then going to work in public sector. i know he was into LONG bike days, double centurys that sort of thing. the other two guys i met thru a buddy who swam in the U pool everyday, he said these guys just did not stop, not smoothest long distance stroke, just thousands and thousands of yards.


I think they exemplify combat fit. ready and able to grind it out for months on nothing but shoe leather and bad water.

[stratus]

Ah, gotcha. I thought you meant "back in the day" with a completely different connotation.


to read some guy who says you had to be NFL lineman big, linebacker fast and bulky clearly does not know what he is talking about. Muscles that size are pure calorie burners. Do you really know what the calorie count is for a guy who is 290 and doing that kind of wieght work? I have a friend who's son is playing big ten football, he is 6' 4'' 295, and he eats something like 7000 calories a day to keep the wieght on, and nearly 9000 when he is bulking up before the season.

it is nearly impossible to consider a fighting man who could carry that much calorie intake, and still be fighting fit. All three ofthe guys i know are light for their height. the tallest is about 6' 1'' 185? or so. both the others are 5 10 ish, 160 ish. but tough as nails. all of them. but they seem to be able to hold that wieght in conditions that are adverse. all three were just over 30. the oldest was the medic and he was out, 15 or so years in, he was still getting paid by the service while he got his degree but was then going to work in public sector. i know he was into LONG bike days, double centurys that sort of thing. the other two guys i met thru a buddy who swam in the U pool everyday, he said these guys just did not stop, not smoothest long distance stroke, just thousands and thousands of yards.

I agree. I'm not one of those who believes getting huge is necessarily the best way to go. If you want to push the upper limits of your ideal range of body weight, or maybe a little beyond, that's up to you, but technique always supercedes mass. Even though mass does play a role in how hard you can hit (the weight class paradigm in boxing, for instance), it does not automatically optimize the mechanics of striking one's opponent properly. If you want to do that, you will have to engage in boxing, grappling, or some kind of martial arts training besides just weight training. All weight training (or aerobic exercise) will do is help you to maximize your body's potential for strength and endurance, which will be significant variables in your performance in combat (but again, this does not address technique). I favor a method of training and nutrition that emphasizes limit strength and sports conditioning. Incidentally, whether you get bigger or not depends solely on your diet. The body has two ways to get stronger, and that is through either hypertrophy (muscle growth) or a greater recruitment of motor neurons (muscle efficiency). In other words: If you're eating a lot of protein and calories when you're on a heavy weight training regime, you'll put on weight, and though most of it will be muscle, not all of it will. If you're eating a normal diet, your body doesn't have as much raw nutrients to metabolize, and the only way to adapt to the training loads is for the body to raise its ability to recruit muscle that is already there.

Regardless, being able to lift heavy doesn't make you Mike Tyson.

[losangeles]

to read some guy who says you had to be NFL lineman big, linebacker fast and bulky clearly does not know what he is talking about. Muscles that size are pure calorie burners. Do you really know what the calorie count is for a guy who is 290 and doing that kind of wieght work?


I was the one who mentioned football type of numbers, but I'm being misquoted. If you go back to that post, I mentioned fitness associated with the positions of running backs, receivers, safeties, outside linebackers (not inside -- there's a difference). DEFINITELY NOT LINEMEN! I've found that athletic fit guys with a good combination of attributes range in the 190 - 225 lb range. Not 290. Those guys will not come close to running 4.6 40 yd dash, for example, and may have a hard time with the endurance numbers I proposed.

I never mentioned the need for mass, for bulkiness, although I expressed the need for strength and power. As well as endurance and stamina. You will be surprised in that a 400 lb bench press is possible for a guy 190 - 225 lbs without the muscleman mass. Although I didn't approach those bench numbers until later in life, I was always strong but not massive, which had to be since I was boxing during that time (mid-20's). BTW, heavy benchers in the 198 lb division, and to some extent 220 lb division, don't necessarily have that type of mass as the 242ers and above.

In one-on-one close quarters unarmed combat, a 160-lb man is going to get out-physicalled by a 210-lb man of equal fitness and ability. I've found that the 190-225 lb range (give or take) doesn't sacrifice as much in speed (talking about very good athletes here) versus the 160-lb guys, whereas the latter will be sacrificing much in strength and power.

At the same time, the 190-225 lb range (good athletes again) can match up closely in strength to the 290 lb guys (because of diminishing returns on the body mass) and usually blow the bigger guys away with speed and quickness (talking about good athletes, again).

If you don't believe me, watch some wrestlers practicing across different weight divisions (only during practice). Also, see how a middleweight boxer practices against a heavyweight. (Again there will be exceptions.) You will observe that a 200 lb boxer can make a good showing against much heavier heavyweights, and usually manhandles any 165-pounder who wants to spar with him in the gym.

From my experience, the 190-225 lb top level athlete (note - there are always exceptions), who shouldn't be massive and bulky, is in the optimal range to take on the smaller guys and the bigger guys. And remember --- I never said "bulky" and "massive"; but they need to be strong.

[stratus]

I never mentioned the need for mass, for bulkiness, although I expressed the need for strength and power. As well as endurance and stamina. You will be surprised in that a 400 lb bench press is possible for a guy 190 - 225 lbs without the muscleman mass. Although I didn't approach those bench numbers until later in life, I was always strong but not massive, which had to be since I was boxing during that time (mid-20's). BTW, heavy benchers in the 198 lb division, and to some extent 220 lb division, don't necessarily have that type of mass as the 242ers and above.

Yep, powerlifting is not bodybuilding :cool:

[porkskin]

do any of you remember a skinny brazillian guy named royce (pronounced hoyce)? 6'1'' 175 lbs revolutionized martial arts as we know it by kicking the snot out of 4 men at ufc 1. one of those was ken shamrock who fits right into you guys buffed up combat ideal. he tapped. now the average guy is not royce gracie, but i think overall fitness goals are more realized by brazillian jiu jitsu training (read "very" active grappling) than powerlifting. i figure in the most primal sense of things, being able to take down, outlast, and choke out a 400lb bencher is more imporatant to survival

[Mikeyboy]

My take is to be prepared for "combat" (anything from someone breaking in the house, to some sort of worldwide event that throws society into chaos). it involves 4 major factors. Strength, Skill, Stamina and Mental toughness. All the exercise in the world will not help if you don't have basic fighting skills or if you are not mentally ready to fight and just quit. I think everyone should at least try some sort of martial arts training in their lifetime. Something is better than charging windmill style at your opponent. In terms of strength and stamina I would go by the US army P/T (the army websites has a chart) requirements as a standard since it is reasonable and flucuates with age. If you try to reach the goal of a 19 year old marine at 50 will get hurt, if you try to bench press as much as an NFL player for the rest of your life you will get hurt. Now I do enjoy lifting weights, but I know this from experience, putting on a lot of mass may look good for some but will slow you down and limit your mobility in a fight. Rambo and Arnold are for the movies, most military guys in real life have mostly lean muscles. I would stick to low weight 3 sets with a lot of reps to get muscle stamina. While the army pushup requirements should be plenty, basic police departments entrance exams say if you are under 40 you should at least be able to bench press your body weight (2 reps). Over 40 WATCH YOUR SHOULDERS

[losangeles]

I know about Royce Gracie. He's an established fixture around here and The Gracie Academy is a few miles from where I live (http://www.gracieacademy.com/ There's also Machado jiu jitsu, which is Brazilian, nearby, so Brazilian style is popular around here.

I've practiced that style for a half-year at that academy myself to get a flavor. Yes, I'm a powerlifter, but that doesn't meant it's at the exclusion of other things. In my years, I've done Fu Jow Pai (kung fu) for 2 years, boxed over 10 years (competitively), Tae Kwon Do for 2 years, Shotokan for 1 year, wrestled for 1 year.

Believe me, it behooves you to get strength when you grapple. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu included. The instructors don't say don't do powerlifting, don't get strong because our techniques will always let you beat a stronger man. There is nothing wrong with using powerlifting to help you gain that strength.

Somehow, guys here are confusing the issue. That somehow powerlifting is mutually exclusive to other sports, other martial arts. It's not.

[losangeles]

it involves 4 major factors. Strength, Skill, Stamina and Mental toughness. All the exercise in the world will not help if you don't have basic fighting skills or if you are not mentally ready to fight and just quit. I think everyone should at least try some sort of martial arts training in their lifetime.

You're right mikeboy. Somehow guys are getting fixated on one aspect. Granted, this thread is focused on one subject.

Listen, guys, if you want to talk about overall effectiveness, yeah there are a whole lot of variables. If you don't have some, you can make up for it with others.

Look at the legendary Gurkhas of Nepal, who have distinguished themselves as warriors from the 18th century (and earlier) to today. Their mental aspect and cultural values are the most important. Every male is raised to believe to believe they would rather "die than live like a coward" which they live by. (I'm a khukuri hobbyist -- khukuris are the great machete-like knives of the Gurkhas -- and cool knives to collect!)

Do a Google search on Gurkhas heroics during WWI, WWII, Faulklands, etc. They won't be as strong as the profile I described. They average around 5'5" and average less than 160 lbs. They won't have the strength numbers I describe; not even the speed and power numbers. But they are the warrior badazzes you would want to model.

It takes a lot more than one thing to make a warrior. But for this thread, I contributed my discussion on one aspect -- power. And if you can improve it, and you want to be the best you can be, this information is not going to hurt you.

[Mikeyboy]

Porkskin....The guys name was Royce Gracie and I remember those early UFC days too. For eveyone else, the UFC is mixed martial arts fighting with open finger gloves, so you get boxers, wrestler, and karate and Judo experts all fighting each other. The UFC now has weight classes like boxing, but early on it was really mixed with no real weight class, you would see 150 pounders fighting 300 pounders. This Gracie was a small guy taking out guys 2 times his size. Ironically he would win the fights mostly on HIS back with the big guy on top of him. He would rap his body around the guy and suddenly when you think he is a goner...the big muscle bound guy is screaming in pain from some hold (he actually dislocated some shoulders and other joints). The Army Rangers have actually consulted with the Gracie family and are using their style of judo in their hand to hand training. I would recommend everyone to check out the old UFC fights (some video stores still rent them) and the UFC now has fights and a reality show (everyone has a reality show now) on Spike TV. It is definately the closest thing you can get to a real hand to hand fight against skilled opponents.

[losangeles]

the UFC now has fights and a reality show (everyone has a reality show now) on Spike TV. It is definately the closest thing you can get to a real hand to hand fight against skilled opponents.

You're right. Around here, there's a competition like that in San Pedro, and you can build yourself up to compete in it. You don't need world class credentials or anything like that to compete and test yourself against other men. But you better come prepared.

[losangeles]

To underscore that it's not any one thing that makes a warrior, check out my recent thread on knifefighting. The guy who won the 2000 Soldier of Fortune knifefighting event weighed 165 lbs. Here's that link again:

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096409923

Hey, there are many factors to be a warrior. With regard to knifefighting, that guy has instinct (and probably a scrappiness) and probably technique (he claims use of Filipino martial arts). Power and strength are but one aspect. But definitely worthy of optimizing for your particular style.

[greeneggsnham]

Has anyone here ever heard of Lee Chung?

[Powderman]

Folks, it seems that we have a lost Dragun around here. Anyone seen him?

Dragun, still waiting for an answer.

[roberts_usmc]

Some of the stuff in this thread is just plain silly!

The first thing I'll take issue with is the guy saying that in his Army bootcamp they usually did a minimum of 25 pullups.
You must have been training with fricking Delta Force - if not that's pure BS.
I am a Marine, and in my boot camp I had the same thing happen. I wasn't a fat-body in the first place, instead I was in pretty good shape. I still lost pullups, and overall strength and weight.
I went doing 12 pullups, left doing 10, and now (6 months after leaving) I do 19-20 depending on the day. I've got to call BS that you guys did a minimum of 25 deadhang pullups in bootcamp.

For the original question:
Do you mean the once in a few years encounter with some BG or combat operations against an opposing force?
Against some bad guy, you need to do just have good hand to hand, knife fighting, and fire-arms skills. Of course it helps to be able to bench 500 lbs or some **** like that -- but you can't stamp something on there like that. Some one will always be able to kick your ass. Just prepare.

In combat operations against an opposing force, you need to have endurance and strength. It's not a question of "can you jog/run a mile?" The question is more like, "can you hauls ass 2 miles to reinforce another platoon heavily engaged, then get down and do fire and manuever for the length of the firefight while carrying all your gear and a weapon (or weapons) plus lots of ammo? Then you got humps where you need to be able to carry a fricking machine gun plus a pack weighing 80-100 lbs on your back.

[Mikeyboy]

In combat operations against an opposing force, you need to have endurance and strength.

I agree, when you think of combat (anything from a miltary firefight to a civilian having an intruder in his home) people always focus on just strength or just endurance but never a combo of both. I want to be somewhere between a bulky powerlifter and a skinny marathon runner, best of both worlds.

[Mikeyboy]

About 10 years ago, I guy I worked with who coached baseball told me that pushups and especially benchpressing was bad for your rotator cuffs (shoulders) when your over 40. Now that I'm in my mid 30's and approaching that age and I'm worried that it might be true. I have been pretty much injury free, and I want to try to keep it that way. I have let myself go for a few years (Deskjob along with family & kids) and I want to get back into shape and pushups, running and weightlifting was a big part of how I stayed in shape in my 20's. As anyone heard this before. Any of you guys over 40, lifting with no problems.

[losangeles]

I see a lot of older guys still benching in age group competitions, going in the 40's, 50's and even 60's. However, I believe that maxing out is not a good idea at an older age, although that age will vary with each individual.

My own anecdotal experience from friends is that, yeah, mid-40's is about the age on average. However, I haven't noticed any problems with guys who bench light just for reps using the proper technique and are warmed up properly.

[porkskin]

stick with dumbells on you benching and always go at some incline. always do rotator cuff work and lots of pulling motions to prevent imbalances. or you could do like me and throw your bench away and do weighted dips for your chest exercise. whatever works for you. injury free is the only way to train

[Powderman]

I am a Marine, and in my boot camp I had the same thing happen. I wasn't a fat-body in the first place, instead I was in pretty good shape. I still lost pullups, and overall strength and weight.
I went doing 12 pullups, left doing 10, and now (6 months after leaving) I do 19-20 depending on the day. I've got to call BS that you guys did a minimum of 25 deadhang pullups in bootcamp.

Well, I was wondering the same thing too.

I spent almost 15 years in the Army, and left as a Staff Sergeant. I led troops through PT and helped score APFT's a number of times.

I am familiar with the requirements and PFT's for the APFT, Airborne PFT and alternate events.

IIRC, the Airborne PT test requires only 3 pullups; other than that, it is a normal PFT.

I have never--repeat, NEVER--heard of 25 pullups as a requirement for ANY PFT in the Army. My son said he's never heard of one, either. He's getting back into the Marine Corps Reserve; just left the active component as a CPL, 4 years active Federal Service.

Dragun--won't you come back and explain to us how this might be so? After all, we COULD be mistaken. ;)

[Neal in GA]

As of my last APFT in 2/04, the requirements for a 17-21 male were 42 pushups in 2 mins, 53 situps in 2 mins, and a 2 mile in 14:46 (I could be wrong on the 2 mile time, but I know it's close). I fell into the 22-26 category, and the minimums for my age group were 40 p/u, 50 s/u, and a 16:36 2 mi.

[Lucky 7]

Im rollin on the floor at most of these posts. Try what we did in (3rd) FAST...run 3 miles in boots, weapons and backback (Flak, Kevlar, SAPI plates, holster and LBV load in there), tac up and start shooting. Everyone was shaking and throwing rounds off their first couple times out. Hand-to-Hand wise, same thing then tac and start doing hip throws, takedowns, ect the rest of the morning. Fun fun fun.
Physical fitness will only get you so far. Confidence in the skills one possesses will carry you a helluva lot further.
Regards and Semper Fi!
-L7
BTW My last PFT was 21:20 3-mile, 18 pull ups and 155 crunches. I need some improvement myself.

[OBIWAN]

Mikeyboy

I am over 40.....(halfway to 50:D )

I have no problem doing pushups every day

As to pullups...don't know the requirements....but I would like to think boot camp grads could do 20+