Recent Situation

[lcgriff]

I've got a question for all you concealed carry guys. My neighbor was riding his bike in town when two guys jumped out of a car and demanded his bike. He resisted so they started pounding on him. In this case would he be justified in drawing if he was carrying or would it have just been better to have a can of OC spray for situations like this? Thanks

[Doug.38PR]

I would say if a gun was all he had then yes he would be justified in drawing and even shooting. These men were physically attacking him brutally determined to rob him. His life was in danger. He is outnumbered. This is a gang assult.

It would be preferable to have a can of Pepper Spray or something I would think for hte reason that a gun can only drop one person at a time and can be taken away by one while shooting the other, and at close range hand to hand pepper spray would easier spray into both attacker's eyes and burn to some degree or another.

[gddyup]

If he had a handgun and an LTC, he would have been justified in using it to defend himself. Disparity of Force comes into play when you have multiple attackers. DOF is one justifiable reason for use of deadly force.

[blackmind]

I think that the license also specifies that you are entitled to use deadly physical force (DPF) to defend against "forcible robbery."

I know I've read that, anyway.

I think that guys jumping a bicyclist from a car would count as forcible robbery, from the description.


-blackmind

[blackmind]

It would be preferable to have a can of Pepper Spray or something I would think for hte reason that a gun can only drop one person at a time and can be taken away by one while shooting the other, and at close range hand to hand pepper spray would easier spray into both attacker's eyes and burn to some degree or another.


This is my own thinking on the matter:

I would never say that pepper spray would be "preferable" in this case, because I think of pepper spray as something to use when force is threatened but has not actually been put into use by a criminal aggressor. I would favor the gun, if violence were already being used against me.

If the second attacker could get the gun from you, he could also get the pepper spray from you. I've heard so many accounts about disparate reactions to pepper spray (the famous, "It'll just make him madder") that I would not count on it when violence was already in play.

Not only that, but pepper spray can EASILY get on YOU as you use it against another person or persons.

Not one, but TWO guys get out of a car to rob me (how do I know they don't have two more in the car?), I am not giving them the benefit of the doubt, or some bleeding heart, "I just don't want to shoot someone over a bicycle" reaction. It's not "over a bicycle" -- it's over robbing me! :mad:

-blackmind

[MostToysWins]

As far as I'm concerned, drawing my weapon is the last thing I want to do.

The first mistake that was made was that he resisted when they wanted his bike. Give them the bike, car, purse, wallet...whatever.

If you pull your gun and shoot someone you WILL go to court, and someone WILL sue you. Is the bike worth the time and money it costs to deal with all that? No.

I carry regularly. If someone were to put a gun in my face and say give me your car, I would say "here you go!"

There are situations where your life may be in real danger when pulling your gun is the only option, but it should be just that, your ONLY option.

[springmom]

....we just had a shop owner here in the Houston area murdered last night in front of his wife when he had done what you just suggested (give them what they want). The BGs were waiting as they closed up their convenience store and got in their car and told them to get out of the car. Demanded their money (receipts of the day) and the man did what they said. So they shot him, point blank, pulled his wife out of the car and dropped her on the pavement, took off with the car and left him to die in the parking lot.

The wife is suicidal in her grief.

If you are being robbed, in this day and age, YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER. Shoot. It was not about the bicycle; if it was, they'd have just gone and stolen a bicycle somewhere. That's easy enough to do.

As somebody's sig line said; I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Springmom, who sounds bloodthirsty and isn't but wants to live to see her grandchildren

[blackmind]

As far as I'm concerned, drawing my weapon is the last thing I want to do.

The first mistake that was made was that he resisted when they wanted his bike. Give them the bike, car, purse, wallet...whatever.


This is the permissive-toward-criminality response that I deplore. I feel that it is a victim mentality that says "capitulate capitulate capitulate" instead of STAND UP for what is right against what is wrong. It may be what you feel like doing, but personally, I find it sickening.


If you pull your gun and shoot someone you WILL go to court, and someone WILL sue you. Is the bike worth the time and money it costs to deal with all that? No.

I think the better question is, "Can you live with the idea that you will be letting someone who has proved himself a violent criminal go so that he can victimize more people, just because you didn't want the expense of going to court?" Because that's exactly what you'd be doing.

People have a responsibility -- to a certain extent -- to think of more than just themselves. I believe that every permissive, capitulating crime victim is allowing society to fall further and further into the clutches of the criminals -- and every person who offs a criminal crapbag is a hero. The more so if he has to go through court to defend his actions and comes out vindicated.


I carry regularly. If someone were to put a gun in my face and say give me your car, I would say "here you go!"

If your PLAN is to give up your stuff, why bother carrying at all? It seems like you already have your reaction pre-set, and it obviously doesn't involve use of a gun.


There are situations where your life may be in real danger when pulling your gun is the only option, but it should be just that, your ONLY option.

Some of us don't consider giving in to criminals an "option."

How long do you lie down, spread your cheeks and take it from criminals, anyway? What if they do this to you repeatedly, and the cops can't or won't find them? (And if they do, they're out again in no time.) It is JUST like dealing with the schoolyard bully. If you stand up to the bully the first time, even if you simply put up a good bluff, he will pass you over to pick on wimpier kids. But give in, and he's got you forever.

-blackmind

[blackmind]

P.S. You spelled "Beretta" wrong.


-blackmind

[Doug.38PR]

This is my own thinking on the matter:

I would never say that pepper spray would be "preferable" in this case, because I think of pepper spray as something to use when force is threatened but has not actually been put into use by a criminal aggressor. I would favor the gun, if violence were already being used against me.

If the second attacker could get the gun from you, he could also get the pepper spray from you. I've heard so many accounts about disparate reactions to pepper spray (the famous, "It'll just make him madder") that I would not count on it when violence was already in play.

Not only that, but pepper spray can EASILY get on YOU as you use it against another person or persons.

Not one, but TWO guys get out of a car to rob me (how do I know they don't have two more in the car?), I am not giving them the benefit of the doubt, or some bleeding heart, "I just don't want to shoot someone over a bicycle" reaction. It's not "over a bicycle" -- it's over robbing me!



I see your point. The psychological presence of a gun (if not that one shot fired) would be enough to drive them away I suppose (more so than a can of spray) My way of thinking was that while a bullet goes only one direction and hits only one person (if even that), pepper spray sprays all over the place (even if it blows back on you) and the pain is so paralyzing that nobody is going to be getting madder, just be in so much pain that they will want to get away from the mace or even unconcious or trying to catch their breath on the ground. That's what I understood the effect of pepper spray to be (but then that could be just commercial hype like the people that say "A .45 caliber bullet will send you flying back through the door.")
I also see your point that there maybe more in the car. I had my gun and saw these guys were a serious threat, I wouldn't think I'd let them get close enough to jump me.

[nug_38]

As far as I'm concerned, drawing my weapon is the last thing I want to do.

The first mistake that was made was that he resisted when they wanted his bike. Give them the bike, car, purse, wallet...whatever.
........
There are situations where your life may be in real danger when pulling your gun is the only option, but it should be just that, your ONLY option.

You seem to forget that drawing a gun does not necessarily mean you have to shoot. If at the point you draw they leave or backdown, then a gun just saved your life. If they continued there assault then you would be fully justified in shooting them.

Maybe if you had said "shooting my weapon" instead of "drawing my weapon" it would have made more sense to me.

Stay safe

[gddyup]

As far as I'm concerned, drawing my weapon is the last thing I want to do.

The first mistake that was made was that he resisted when they wanted his bike. Give them the bike, car, purse, wallet...whatever

Wow...just... wow. That defies logic to me. I wonder how many people have thought just the same thing only to never have been given the chance to think anything else again? You'll give up your car, your bike, your wallet.... how bout your wife/girlfriend? Your child? Your life? Might as well give those up as well if someone threatened the use of violence to get them....

Just doesn't make sense to me... :barf:

[blackmind]

Scares me that it "makes sense" to anybody, that we should "just give them what they want."

For one thing, you don't know that your "stuff" is ALL they want.

For another thing, it's an attitude of defeated, head-hanging cowardice to just give someone something that is yours, that they have no right to, just because they menace you.

God, I hate to think what life we'd be living if our forebears had just knuckled under that way.


-blackmind

[XavierBreath]

Here's my personal take on this one...............
A can of OC works if you have one attacker. If you have more than one, it will probably be turned against you by the one you are not spraying.
Multiple attackers meet the disparity of force criteria for a lethal response.

However...........your friend is on a bike. A BIKE. I do not know how many times as a kid I outran cops in patrol cars and on foot on my bicycle. A bike can go places cars cannot. It can out distance people who give chase on foot. There is a reason police now have bike patrols, and it isn't to save on gas. In this instance, I believe the best thing to do would have been to haul ass on the bike where the car could not go, and where you could get enough distance if they gave chase on foot. The object is to survive, not win a fight.

If you are near a park, ride across it. If you are near a store, ride through it. If you are on a road, get off of it. Use the bike to your advantage. There's no need to even draw a gun.
My neighbor was riding his bike in town when two guys jumped out of a car and demanded his bike. He resisted so they started pounding on him.He never should have stopped.

[Blackwater OPS]

I agree with Xavier.
1st avoid giving BGs an opportunity to make you a victim.
2nd, if its too late for #1, try to get the hell out of there unhurt.
3rd, if one and two are out, Fight with everything you've got, and worry about court later.

Just giving up puts your life in the BG's hands, why would you give your live to the BG? Why carry if thats your mindset?

[hawken50]

I believe that every permissive, capitulating crime victim is allowing society to fall further and further into the clutches of the criminals
Well said, blackmind. Well said.

[Doug.38PR]

As far as I'm concerned, drawing my weapon is the last thing I want to do.

The first mistake that was made was that he resisted when they wanted his bike. Give them the bike, car, purse, wallet...whatever.
........
There are situations where your life may be in real danger when pulling your gun is the only option, but it should be just that, your ONLY option

It just goes to show you what a timid, effeminant and emasculated culture we have degenerated into. :mad:

[pax]

pepper spray sprays all over the place (even if it blows back on you) and the pain is so paralyzing that nobody is going to be getting madder, just be in so much pain that they will want to get away from the mace or even unconcious or trying to catch their breath on the ground. That's what I understood the effect of pepper spray to be ...
Doug ~

I took an OC class this summer. Almost everyone in the class volunteered to get sprayed. One woman did not react to the stuff. I mean she literally just shook her head a couple times, sneezed, and said, "That's it??" She got a pretty good faceful of the stuff too, because the instructor sprayed her a couple more times (with her permission) to be sure she'd been dosed.

pax

[John28226]

On September 10, 2001, the prevailing attitude for airline "hijacking" was "do as they say and everything will be alright". The next day that changed! It has been a long time since the book, "The Onion Field" came out - I doubt that many of the forum members have read it. Might make good reading for some who says, "just give them what they want and everything will be alright".

If you try to steal my garbage and threaten me with force so you can take it, will I let you? You will find the answer in "Dane Geld".

Good luck.

[MostToysWins]

WOW!

I didn't know my response would ilicit such a strong response of opposition towards my views.

I just choose to use my HEAD before my GUN, and realize there are serious ramifications of being involved in a shooting when there may be other options available.

I guess you guys I ****** off have killed someone before and have no problem with it.

My father is a retired police officer who was almost killed in a shooting, and had to shoot and kill the perp to save his own life, so please don't judge me without knowing me.

My father even though he was more than justified in killing the bad guy was racked with severe guilt and depression for many years. He retired from the force because of the shooting and this is not an isolated case. It happens to LEO's all the time. My father encourages me to this day to carry but makes sure I know I will have to take serious responsibility for my actions and that shooting someone should be the last option you use.

So unless you have pulled you weapon and killed someone, don't think that it is the easiest thing in the world to do and deal with, even if you are justified in doing so.

But lets get one thing straight...in response to some of the above posts...

I am in NO WAY saying "give in" to criminals.

I am in NO WAY "effeminant or emasculated", a defeatest OR a coward. How can you attack personally without knowing me at all.

My PLAN is not to "give up my stuff" but to use my head to get out of the situation in a safe as manner as possible. If I have to pull my gun and drop someone I will, if giving them my car diffuses the situation than so be it.

I think responding with GUNS BLAZING in every situation as blackmind appears to think, is very irresponsible unless you are trained to do so (LEO), and if you are blackmind I apologize.

Protecting you bike or car with deadly force is COMPLETELY different than protecting your wife and child.

In every gun class I have attended, EVERY instructor and LEO has told me if you pull your weapon, you use it. You DO NOT flash it or draw it to use as a simply a deterrent, that is a good way to get killed. You NEVER BLUFF with your gun.

I would have NO problem shooting anyone who was threatening me or my family's life, that is why I carry. I just don't think material possessions are worth possibly losing your life over. I would not want to widow my wife over my bike or car.

If I thought I was going to lose my life even after I gave the bad guy what he wanted I would draw and start shooting.

Everything is situational and I think someone resisting a group of bad guys over a bike is a stupid thing to do even though it is noble to stand up to criminals. 2 guys come to get your bike...what if you shoot the first one, the other has a gun and blows you away? Does that make you a hero...no it makes you dead over a stupid bike.

I live in Texas but I am intelligent enough to know this is not the wild wild west.

I really enjoy posting on this board and reading everyones views on things.

I have never judged or name called when I see a view I disagree with.

Please try to respect my views and understand I am a card carrying NRA member and CHL holder you believes in the right to bear arms and protect my possessions and family with deadly force if need be. But even though my views are different than some of yours, it makes them no more right or wrong than yours.

[stratus]

Without overanalyzing, let me just say that no way would I trust my life to a can of OC spray if I had TWO guys intent on beating me to a viscous reddish paste, then using the spray as a seasoning.

Nor will I do myself or my family the disservice of passively yielding to their demands. How do I know that if I give them what they want, they won't decide to beat me within an inch of my life, or stab me in both eyes, just for drill?

If there are multiple assailants with the intention of doing me harm, whether it be with their fists or bats, they will be met with the presentation of deadly force, then the use of deadly force if they persist. When it comes to my life, or my loved ones, I will not be half @$$ in my approach. I intend to stay in this world for as long as possible.

By the way, sorry to hear about what happened to your neighbor. Hope he's okay.

[springmom]

My CHL instructor (a Montgomery County constable, many years a LEO) taught us that you can indeed use deadly force to protect your property...then said that personally, he would not shoot someone who was, say, stealing his truck from his driveway. IOW, where there's no danger to him. The guy on the bike though, is in a different sort of situation. Whether he should have stopped or not, at the point where he is facing down the bad guys, it is more prudent to draw your weapon than to simply hand over the bike.

My instructor also told us that it certainly IS ok to draw without firing; if a command will stop the threat to you ("drop the gun", "lay down on the ground and don't move" or whatever) then you have saved lives, have not had to take a life, and have kept your bike. So if biker had pulled his gun, said, "I don't think so, Scooter....GET DOWN ON THE GROUND NOW!" and they had done so, then the situation is defused and you get a LEO to take it from there.

So "giving up the stuff" when you are not in immediate danger is one thing...you call the cops, call LoJack (you DO have LoJack on your vehicles, don't you, y'all???????? you should!!!!! :) :) :) ) and let them do their thing. If, though, it's a robbery rather than a theft, then you're in danger and it becomes a matter of self defense, not the "stuff".

My highly overinflated $.02. YMMV.

Springmom

[Shepherd]

For one, by the time they had the chance to stop the vehicle and jump out, he should of had the time to peddle the heck out of there in the other direction. For two, as a cyclist, if someone did that to me, and this is taking into consideration that the vehicle pulled to a stop by him, your post didn't specify if the vehicle were moving or already stopped, but I would consider someone coming to an abrupt stop next to me while I am riding as an assault already. They are in a 4,000 pound weapon and I am on an 18 pound piece of plastic (carbon fiber), by the time they got out of the car my hand would be on the butt of my gun, and if they came towards me, the gun would be out and ready. If the car was already parked and the guys jumped out as he went by, he should have been going fast enough to swerve around them and peddle away.

[RWK]

To begin, let’s get an important fact straight: State statutes govern this situation; therefore, differing jurisdictions could have VERY diverse laws. Second, as a general rule appropriate defensive force can be employed to protect an innocent from a grave and immediate danger of severe injury or death; what is “appropriate”, “grave”, “immediate”, and so forth are questions for the “reasonable individuals” on the jury.

[stratus]

My CHL instructor (a Montgomery County constable, many years a LEO) taught us that you can indeed use deadly force to protect your property...then said that personally, he would not shoot someone who was, say, stealing his truck from his driveway. IOW, where there's no danger to him. The guy on the bike though, is in a different sort of situation. Whether he should have stopped or not, at the point where he is facing down the bad guys, it is more prudent to draw your weapon than to simply hand over the bike.

Springmom is dead on with this point. Give a thug an inch and he'll generally take a mile. Give him your bike, and he might consider what else is within his power to take - your dignity or your life, perhaps. We have to remember that the psyche of the BG doesn't work the same way as that of a law-abiding citizen. They do not have much of a conscience, otherwise they would be doing something entirely else with their time. You can't reason with such a person. You have to speak in a language that he can understand, and to this end, drawing is more than prudent. It may back him off, but it goes without saying that one should never rely on the presentation of deadly force without also possessing the will to actually use that force, if necessary. Moreover, a person might not have more than a fraction of a second to decide if the presentation of deadly force has failed, and they must fire their weapon. Hesitation can cause an attacker to use your own weapon against you or any number of things.

[nug_38]

Most folks on this site have not have to use thier weapon in selfdefence. Most of them are prepared though. Everybody here plan on using thier head before they shoot. The thing is, most folks here, unlike you, recognize the value of the presentation of a gun in diffusing a situation. It would be much better for all involved that, after you draw your weapon, the perps run away. Nobody would have been shot, you would have your belongings, the jury would not see you in court, etc.

If you draw your weapon, you must be prepared to use it. However, if you draw and you have the perps running and you shoot them, you have just used your weapon illegally. How would you know the limits of the perps attacking you? You cant read minds, can you? Just a little reminder that disparity of force is legal justification to shoot.

I am not here to burst your bubble. I just want to point out that in my opinion your view on drawing and shooting are flawed. You don't know when you will be confronted, neither do you dont know the intentions of criminals. I realize that you may not be prepared to defend your life with all availables at your disposal. I have never shot someone so I dont know firsthand how it would affect me, but if I have to, I will.

Be safe. Practice well. Develop good situational awareness skills.

[blackmind]

+1 Springmom and +1 Stratus, too.


My PLAN is not to "give up my stuff" but to use my head to get out of the situation in a safe as manner as possible. If I have to pull my gun and drop someone I will, if giving them my car diffuses the situation than so be it.

I think responding with GUNS BLAZING in every situation as blackmind appears to think, is very irresponsible unless you are trained to do so (LEO), and if you are blackmind I apologize.


I did not say that my response is planned to be "guns blazing"; further, I also recognize that my "on the forum" response would have to be tempered by reality if TSHTF for me personally. I have not yet been in that situation, and don't yearn to be. I remain vigilant, however, and I also remain willing to do what I have to, even if that is to end the life of a criminal attacker.

Protecting you bike or car with deadly force is COMPLETELY different than protecting your wife and child.

That all depends on how you view it. It's a very personal thing. Yes, they're different, but still similar in many ways. My personal view is that an offense against my person is an offense against my person, whether they were trying to take something I had worked for, something I had lucked upon, or someone I love. Doesn't matter what it is, IT'S MINE, and if you're a criminal trying to take it by force, I feel that I MUST work to prevent you from doing that. It's one contest in which I do not feel willing to accept a loss. And I will NOT appease a criminal by giving him what he demands; I would not do this even IF I had a guarantee that he would walk away with the bicycle and not try for my wallet, jewelry (if I wore jewelry) or my life.


In every gun class I have attended, EVERY instructor and LEO has told me if you pull your weapon, you use it. You DO NOT flash it or draw it to use as a simply a deterrent, that is a good way to get killed. You NEVER BLUFF with your gun.

Never bluff, sure. But drawing a gun does not mean having to fire it! :eek:
Are you really saying that as soon as it's drawn and aimed, the trigger must be pulled or the guy with the gun has done something wrong in drawing it? What of holding a guy for the cops because seeing a gun brought compliance out of him? What of sending him running, scared for his life because he hadn't counted on armed resistance. There are many circumstances in which you might find the gun is exactly a deterrent.

The main issue is, don't draw it unless you would be WILLING to fire it, should the need arise. It's not a matter of don't draw it unless you're GOING to fire it...


-blackmind

[MostToysWins]

Points well taken blackmind and others.

If I pull my weapon I must be WILLING to use it, I do not HAVE to use it, I sort of meant it that way but I guess it came across wrong.

I appreciate everyones views. My personal experience with my father just puts me in a different mindset than most I suppose.

But I definately see the value in other opinions and that is why I have enjoyed posting on the forum immensely.

Good discussions are what teaches everyone about guns and situations where a gun may need to be used.

I just hope that some of you see some value in my opinions as well. :)

Thanks!

[blackmind]

I hope to convey that I have compassion for what your dad went through after having to kill a criminal.

The thing, for me, is that he killed a criminal. It's not as though his attention wavered while driving and he struck a kid in an intersection or something. The life he took was FAR from innocent -- you said that the criminal had shot at your dad!

Granted, I have never had to do it, so it's all conjecture at this point... but... I would like to believe that the choice that a criminal makes that gets him[//i] shot by me is not going to cause me to live in despair and grief. I would like to think I could forget him like he was some deer I hit on the highway because [i]it put itself in my way. I am far less likely to have compassion or sympathy for someone who made a choice -- a criminal one -- that caused him to forfeit his life to a good-doer.

-blackmind

[Robert Garner]

Chamberlin "Peace in our time" or TR "speak softly,and carry a big stick"
Of course if shots prove unnecessary well and good; another posted it's not
the bicycle its the assault? Ichoose not to live in fear,or compromise my safety for some scum.
If I can't learn from another he fault must be mine.

[John28226]

The state in which I live distinguishes between robbery (a crime against person and a felony) and larceny (a property crime). Defending yourself against a robbery may be done with whatever force is necessary.

And those that say that just the appearance of a gun may (in my case did) change the mind of those who would do you harm are absolutely right. Anything can happen but usually petty criminals count on no resistance and run when confronted. I did not shoot but I was prepared to do so.

John
Charlotte, NC

[Jeeper]

If I pull my weapon I must be WILLING to use it, I do not HAVE to use it, I sort of meant it that way but I guess it came across wrong.


I was hoping that is what you meant. I personally have "drawn" on someone 3 times with no shots ever fired (thank god). I pretty much totally agree with your posts. There are some things that I wont use force over. They are not worth the risk. There are also many that are worth the risk.

[blackmind]

Not worth the risk of what?

Do you mean "not worth the legal hassle?

Because if someone is confronting you to rob you of your property, I have news for you, you're already at risk!


I think it can be a grave mistake to treat the theft of a bicycle lightly, as though it is not a crime of violence against your person -- it is. And you don't know what someone who would stick you up for a bicycle might do to you once he sees you're a compliant victim and he won't get resistance out of you.

This is a robbery, not a theft. It's not finding your bicycle lock snapped and your bike gone; this is having it taken from you by force.

How some of you can treat this as though all you stand to lose is your bicycle is beyond me. :rolleyes:


-blackmind

[Glock 31]

Yes! Two on one is called disparity of force. He would have certainly been justified in lethal force. Of course depending on the state he's in, he may have to attempt to escape first.:cool:

[USP.40]

well

[wahsben]

Some here have mentioned going off road with the bike and that might work if the person was riding a mountain bike or a cheap bike with heavy wheels but probably would not work too well with a bike that has high performance racing wheels. They hold up fine on most roads but going off road may cause the rider to crash and than they would get the bike anyways.

Just like with firearms high performance costs money.Racing bikes can cost several thousand dollars or more for some they cost more than their cars if they have one. Also for some this may be their transportation and therefore part of their livelyhood.

I am with the people that would meet force with force if it became neccesary and in this instance I feel it would be justified.

[shortround60]

In my opinion if someone was to try to carjack me, I would do my best to floor it. If that option is not available, at the first millisecond I could I would put every round I could into center of mass. I say this because most people have their house and car keys on the same chain. If they leave with one, they now have both. You are left without a means of beating them to your residence, which they can ascertain from the vehicle's registration or insurance card. You will most likely be robbed of your wallet, cellphone, etc and the response time of a call to 911 will not be in your favor. So, by a confluence of circumstances, my entire family is at risk because of one individual who decided my life or theirs is worth a car.

[Blackwater OPS]

I'm not knocking presentation, as long as its understood that thats the last option before deadly force. There is no going back from presentation.

[Pointer]

I have no compunctions in dropping the predator types... :mad:

None at all...

And, I wouldn't need counseling to learn to live with me again... :D

None at all...

[Jeeper]

I have no compunctions in dropping the predator types...

None at all...

And, I wouldn't need counseling to learn to live with me again...

None at all...

You know this because you have done it? A lot of soldiers thought the same before they had to do it, then after the event they realized how hard iit was.

[aflyer]

Hi, I am kinda new here, but I do have a couple of thoughts about this topic.

First; those of you who have been saying what the guy with the bike "should" have done are not addressing the issue. The issue is what actually took place, not what didn't. By saying he "should" have done certain things is Monday morning quarterbacking, and this is what has gotten us so many of the laws and regulations we complain about.

Bureacrats, politicians, lawyers, even juries, sit in comfortable rooms and decide that a certain action "should" have been different.

If the bike gentleman could do it over (and that is what "should" really means) chances are he would have simply stayed home. By saying he "should" have ridden away, "should" have given up the bike, etc, you are suggesting that what happened wasn't real.

I suspect he spends time thinking on what he "should" or "could" have done differently, but the truth is he did what he did. In my opinion he did the best he could with the resources and ablities he had at the time. He may do differently next time, but that is only because he has different resources (and experiences) and ablilities than he had.

This, in my opinion is also an issue that ManyToys brings to the discussion. His father, a cop, killed a perp while defending himself. He did what he did based on the resources and abilities he had at the time. Nothing more nothing less.

The fact that he suffered guilt for many years afterward is a separate issue. If he (the father) were able to go back and do it over, in order to avoid years of guilt, would he choose not to shoot the BG? Would he choose to give up his life in order not to take another? What would he choose to do differently? I don't know.. and really it isn't pertinent because what happened is exactly what happened.

What happened afterward (the guilt) is the main ingredient in PTSD and there are a number of ways of treating that condition. Again using the resources and abilities one has at any given time, a choice will be made to treat or not treat such a condition.

And simply because someone (in this case a father) suffers emotional distress because of an action he has taken, is not sufficient reason some other person (a son?) need suffer the same way under similar circumstances.

My father killed a number of Germans in Europe in 1944/45. Some of them were boys in the Hitler Youth. He believed at the time that they were intending to kill him (some rather more directly than others) so he chose to defend his own life. Later in Korea he acted similarly with North Koreans and Chinese being the ethnic description of the enemy.

To the best of my recollection he never had trouble sleeping at night because of the choices he made back then. He did say he would have preferred not to have fought boys, but those boys were very enthusiastically trying to kill him, so he did what he had to do.

I personally never had to take another life, but I have had guns pointed at me, and even fired at me. In the latter case (it only happened this one time) I was completely prepared to take the shooter's life, but luckily for me (though mostly for him) he decided to cease and desist when I responded to him with superior firepower, from superior cover.

When I first fired back, he was behind cover, so I was not able to hit him, but had I been able, I have no doubt I would have gone for a killing shot. When he did lay down his weapon, I chose not to take fatal action, though a part of me remained furious (and scared) and I had a bit of a struggle in not doing so.

Now, some might say "Well, you didn't take another life, so you can't really feel guilt about it." and you would be right. I don't feel guilt for taking his life because I didn't actually take it. On the other hand, I was there and I know that I was completely prepared to shoot to kill.

And I know that even if I had had some moments of regret, remorse, or even guilt, it would not have lasted a lifetime.

I believe I would have spent some time wondering if I could have done anything different, and wishing I had stayed home. In fact, even without killing him, I explored what I might have done differently, and without a doubt, for at time, wished I had not gone out that day!

Again, the bottom line is I was there, I made the choices I made based on the situation, and on the resources and abilities I had at the time. Nothing is going to change that.

So, I open the floor to those who would say what I "should" have done. Even feef free to comment on what you think my dad "should" have done, if you wish to go there.

All I am saying is that people do what they do because THEY are in the situation. They act, react, and judge themselves. And for the rest of us to do anything other than learn from it, can be at the very least, a missed educational opportunity, at worst disrespetful, or judgmental and condemning of them.

[Jeeper]

I see nothing wrong with saying you "should have done this". I agree that the person in the situation used what they had an knew but the critiquing of them also allows them to learn more. Unless you are omnipotent then having others give ideas about possible ways to handle the situation differently can always be a learning experience for everyone. I also think it is totally impossible to know how you would feel after killing someone unless you actually did it. I came damn close to shooting someone once, and would have been totally justified, but I cant say I know what pulling the trigger would have felt like. I don't think I would have been affected, but since I haven't done it there is absolutely no way to know for sure.

[Evader1]

FWIW I'm just going to add a few comments. First, I think we all need to remember that with great power comes great responsibility. People need to use wisdom when it comes to owning firearms and using them. Pride is as dangerous as your gun, maybe more! What's your motive for pulling the gun? Is it to truly defend and protect or is it an ego trip to say "I'm a bad dude cause I gotta gun"! Do I think you should lay down and roll over, ABSOLUTELY NOT! But there's consequences. One thing I haven't heard is what happens after? Ok, you shoot and kill the BG or BG's. What now? What if they have family, they were a father? Do you have what it takes to tell them why you killed their son, husband, father? As we train with our weapons we also need to train ourselves with consequences. Second, Street Smarts!!!! I think this is the most important of all. I do understand that sometimes bad stuff just happens and situations arise. We also need to realize that some of us aren't LEO and shouldn't act like it, just cause you've got a CCW and a gun doens't mean you're always right in shooting. If you're going to draw your weapon you better be prepared to use it and what follows afterwards! That's my thoughts...............

[gddyup]

But there's consequences. One thing I haven't heard is what happens after? Ok, you shoot and kill the BG or BG's. What now? What if they have family, they were a father? Do you have what it takes to tell them why you killed their son, husband, father? As we train with our weapons we also need to train ourselves with consequences.

It's my responsibility to keep myself alive so that I can be there for my family. I love my family and I intend to die of old age very later on in life. I'm a responsible, respected, hard-working professional who has worked hard to accomplish what I have in my 31 years here. I respect other individuals who have followed the same path in their lives to reach their own goals and comfortable living situations. I EXPECT them as citizens to respect my rights, my ideas, my possesions, and my values as they should expect the same from me. These people tend not to be criminals...

Criminals have a choice. They can choose to wake up in the morning and be someone respected, or they can wake up in the morning and choose to be a criminal. Someone who deserves nothing but the fate dealt to them by the respected. Criminals have families. Very true but very unfortunate. I don't care. I see every day I go to work what the respected folks have to deal with because of the criminals. I only get to see the more horrific parts though since the police handle the smaller stuff. I get to have them in my ambulance with blood pouring out onto my floor because a criminal decided that their life was just less important. I'm sure the criminal was thinking of this poor bastards family while he did what he did.

If you are justified, then the consequences of using force way more heavily on my family by the actions I must use to make sure I end up being the one who goes home that day. The criminal threw his family out the door the minute he chose to make someone else a victim. If they had chosen to be a respected person in society, then "consequences" would have no meaning.

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert A. Heinlein

[Pointer]

Jeeper +1


Even if you've done it before...

Each situation is different...

And we can never know how we will react... or feel.

What I did as a kid is not necessarily what I would do as an old person, etc.

Good call. :)

[blackmind]

quote: "I have no compunctions in dropping the predator types...

None at all...

And, I wouldn't need counseling to learn to live with me again...

None at all..."

You know this because you have done it? A lot of soldiers thought the same before they had to do it, then after the event they realized how hard iit was.


I haven't done it, either. But there is, I think, a world of difference between a soldier who shoots another soldier just because politicos say they have to because of some international tiff and then realizes that the guy is just like him, with a family and stuff -- and the civilian who shoots the guy who just tried to rob him or kill him, or the woman who shoots the guy who just tried to rape her!

I understand why the soldier might feel remorse, compassion, etc. I do not see the same need for remorse or compassion when the person you kill was the scumbag who wanted to kill you.

That kind of compassion is misplaced.


-blackmind

[blackmind]

One thing I haven't heard is what happens after? Ok, you shoot and kill the BG or BG's. What now? What if they have family, they were a father? Do you have what it takes to tell them why you killed their son, husband, father?


If the BG has chosen to victimize me or my family, then HE is the one who bears responsibility for the horrible life that lies ahead for his dependents -- NOT ME.

I will not be the one explaining anything to the family's son/husband/father. The police will do that. And if (since) I shot in legitimate self-defense, and it came down to the family asking me why, I think I could bring myself to say, "Because your (son/husband/father) was a criminal who attacked me and threatened MY life. You'd have him with you still if he hadn't been that kind of person. So sorry."

You will never convince me that I am the one who should feel sorry if I have to end the life of a person who would attack me with the intention of ending my life (or robbing me, etc., which carries with it the threat of ending my life). I don't care if he had 2 kids or 20 kids, grieving widow, mother, father, nephews, nieces... He owed it to them to keep himself from getting shot by his own victim. He could have chosen a life that wasn't that of a criminal. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances, hey?


-blackmind

[aflyer]

Jeeper + Pointer

What I actually said was "And I know that even if I had had some moments of regret, remorse, or even guilt, it would not have lasted a lifetime."

The reason I can say that and mean it, is because I have done other things in my life that I regretted, felt remorse or guilt about, and none of the negativity lasted for the rest of my life.

Yes, taking another human life is probably at the top of the list when it comes to guilt generation. And if I had done so back in my past, I might have had to struggle that. But look into real situations and check into how many felt guilt for the rest of their lives, and I bet you will see there are just as many, possibly more, who do not drag their guilt ridden selves out of bed each and every day.

I would say that just statistically, there us as much likelihood I would NOT have a lifetime of guilt. Simply by chance I could be (and believe I am) not an excessive guilt carrier.

Over the years, some of my actions have brought me results I do not like, and these are the ones I regret etc... however I cannot change either the action or the result, so I have not been able to understand why I should feel guilty about something I cannot change. I can feel stupid, I can feel regret, I can feel sorry, but I just can't manage to work up much in the way of guilt. Mostly what I do manage is wistfullness, or 'dang-it'.

In my mind, guilt is a way of avoiding a truth about myself. Guilt remains in effect when I get a result that I do not like, and I beat myself up for making the choice that led to those results.

In other words, when I feel guilty it is because I am pretending to be someone I am not, and wishing I had done something different. I am refusing to accept that I have brought certain results upon myself because of an action I took.

In my life I have simply learned more awareness, more patience, and to accept the results of my actions. I prefer not to avoid truths about myself.

If you say I cannot know how I would feel, you may be right, but I suspect I know myself better than you know me, and I respectfully suggest, you cannot say how I feel (or "should" feel) either!

And just for the record, I am not going to feel guilty about not feeling guilty.

This may not work for everyone, but it works for me. Feel free to disagree, but save your energy if you want to convert me to your way of thinking about this.
:D

[DimitriS]

Here we dont have concealled carry laws or the like. But I am gonna have to agree with the members saying that if they were being rob of anything it doesnt matter. What matters is that this criminal is robbing you and with the way they now just shot after they get what they want standing by and letting them rob you is a foolish mistake. :(

Let me put it this way .... the 20$ in my wallet and my 150$ bike I got means nothing to me compared to my life and well being. But what is there to say that not fighting back will make them not kill you if one of them think they should kill you ??

Nothing is (well should be) worth more then your life and the lives of your family. If a gang of thugs come into your home at night to rob you and your 8 year old daughter is sleeping on her bed and your wife beside you on yours will you honestly say to the gang "Its ok you can come in now I wont do anything steal what you want, tie me up and gag me so I cant resist at all and while your at it go rape my wife and kill my daughter" seriously ?? :confused:

Because they might go after 20$ or a bike or a TV but it doesnt mean they might get ideas of other things they might want to do. :mad:

Think what is the worst thing that can possibly happen at the time and prepare for it dont just hope and pray it will be a simple little thing and it wont ecalate into something much more serious is what I try to fallow in any confrentation I ever had in my life with anyone :)

My grandfather always tells me a variation of the "Its better to go down fighting then to go down not trying". :) He told me that the first time when I was so little I cant remember it but its stuck to me and I never back down. Backing down might give the BG a edge or him thinking he has a edge and he might get ideas to do other things then just rob you such as shoot you on the street ;)

PS: I never killed anyone and all I know is that how my grandfather acts thinking about what he did in WW2 and the Civil War (in Greece) no words are nessisary to be able to tell that he regets it. Solider or Street thug killing someone is killing someone in both cases your shooting someone to protect your life but I dont think after it all it will matter to you if he was just fallowing orders or if he wanted to kill you on the street you will feel like sh*t for killing them later on.

Dimitri

[FLA2760]

Hi
This reminds me of a similiar case about 25 years ago when I was livng in NY.
Two guys wanted the 10 speed bike a guy was riding on the boardwalk one morning. The guy was beaten AFTER he got off his bike and when he was down one of the BGs picked up the bike and slammed it into his head! The guy needed like 60 stiches or something. Draw my weapon, hell yeah shoot them you bet. OC spray has its tactical place but when the BGs are right up in your face the OC is just as likely to effect YOU too. For up close and personal work a DAO revolver fired from within the pocket is pretty hard to snatch.

[Eghad]

Nug might want to check the state laws.....

In Texas the threat of deadly force is considered deadly force. If you pull your pistol out you have just done the same as use deadly force. What you want to keep in mind is escelation and de-escalation. Sometimes it takes several steps for things to escalate or you go from nothing to oh crap in one step. You can always de-escelate a situation. Just because you pull the hogleg doesnt mean you have to plug someone. If upon pulling the hogleg from its concealed location the other party ceases and desists all activity that is life threatining or injurious and proceeds to leave voluminious clouds of heel dust you have used the amount of force neccessary to stop the perpetrator.

This sounds kinda like you had to have been there....

If I feel that my life or that of another person is in danger or serious bodily injury then the hogleg gets pulled. Thats all I am going to say to the police and DA . If two males are trying to openly steal something from you its obvious that they intend to use force to take it. I dont think they are going to say pretty please and then stamp thier foot and leave pouting if they dont get thier way. Chances are its not these guys first time doing it. So is the DA going to waste his time prosecuting you for defending yourself ? probably not hes going to have a nice da and see ya if you didnt fire any shots....

nobody expects you to be a mind reader.. most use a reasonable man standard. If you could read minds and predict the future why would we need a CCW?

Now there are places in this world and country where they dont want you to defend yourself. it is up to you to figure that out........which shouldnt take long to do and relocate to another state.

[Evader1]

Guys like I said before, one of my questions was "Do you have what it takes"? Can you say "Yes I shot and killed them" My question was answered, seems most of you can, great. Don't hear what I'm not saying either. If it comes down to defending your life, then you have a divine right to meet that situation head on and defend! I'm throwing my thoughts in, as you all are. Blackmind, I completely agree that when the BG goes perp and tries to steal from you, then FIGHT BACK! He made a decision on his own and he faces the consequences also. I believe that it's better to "hear the cell door close then the casket lid shut". Sure, I could start throwing out "What If's" all day long, but for sake of sanity, I'll stick to the original thread.

"Would he have been justified in drawing"? I'd like to think so, would I have? Depends on what the perps looked like. Big heavy set guys? Yup, I'd draw! Scrawny little twerps looking for fun? Probably not, I just wouldn't have stopped.

[4x4]

They told us in CHL class that if you just pull your gun that 99% of the time that will disfuse the sitiuation. I think a gun and a bright light like the Surefire Defender would cause most bad guys to re-think their position. My .02 but then I'm a newbie....