Are you really a good shot?

[H&K4Life]

If you shoot handguns long enough, sooner or later, you are gonna have that "discussion" with the guy next to you on how accurate a true Pistolero should be.

GUY #1 - It makes no sense to shoot a pistol at anything over15 yds! That's what rifles are for!

GUY #2 - You don't need a tight shot group. As long as you hit somewhere on the intended body cavity, you are good to go!

GUY #3 - Man, that felt good <as he shoots 32" groups at a human-size target 5yds away!>, as long as I hit the paper, I'm satisfied!

Me - If you can't put three shots right on top of each other, from at least 15 yds away, within 1.5 seconds.....then no, that is not good...so keep you mouth shut and keep shooting!

Sometimes I find myself searching for the 'Holy Grail'. I am never satisfied. I will shoot for hours, no matter what the drill, until I get three shots on top of each other...you know, the 0.25 inch group!...well....I have not done it yet, is there anyone out there who has? (distance > 15 yards / time <1.5 seconds)

[Boss Spearman]

Heck, I don't shoot a handgun at anything further away than 15 feet most of the time. That's the average distance most self defense encounters occur at.

If someone shoots a handgun at someone from 15 yards or more, that person likely is going to prison.

[capbuster]

Have fun in searching for your desired level of excellence. As one of our local policeman recently stated you are never as good a shot as you want to be.Yes you could limit your practice to short distances and fast paced shooting but why limit yourself when you can experiment and become the shooter you want to be.

[Jody Hudson]

Have fun, try some incredibly LONG distances and then come on back in to your usual distance, back OUT then back in and at different distances.

What is the longest distance you are able to be from the target? I am fortunate and can shoot at my outside range, at up to 800 yards and more...

A dirt bank where you can see the bullets hit and some gallon jugs of water can be a huge ammount of fun while you PROGRAM your mind and work on those little points in your shooting.

I had a place where we could shoot a bit over a THOUSAND YARDS into a safe, white sand, backstop. We set up some 20 inch metal discs at the bottom of the hill and were shooting at them with rifles and PISTOLS!!!! We could BARELY SEE the black metal discs against the white sand but WOW was it fun to hit them and we could see the bullet hits as the white sand was darker just underneath so a hit would splash a dark hole for a short time until what was exposed faded back to white again!

Have fun and enjoy shooting through the same hole!

P.S.
I like to use a little philosophy tool too... Try shooting at a pin-hole in the center of the bullseye and then try shooting THROUGH that pin hole to a very distant imaginary target that is so far away that it improves your follow-through-hold... The combination of imagining your target to be far smaller and in the center of what you are shooting and the distance trick are both good for tightening groups... with all your other techniques being worked on simultaneously! :D

[Powderman]

If someone shoots a handgun at someone from 15 yards or more, that person likely is going to prison.

No flame, but how so?

As far as accuracy is concerned, try NRA Conventional Pistol, also known as Bullseye shooting.

We strive to hit an X-ring, measuring 1.69 inches in diameter--STARTING at 25 yards.

Slow fire is done at 50 yards, same diameter X-ring.

And to top that off, ALL firing is done ONE HANDED, in the old "duel" position.

I am rated as an Expert in Conventional Pistol. At 25 yards, I can shoot 10's and X's--on one memorable occasion, I cleaned a target at 25 yards--score was 100/10X. Unfortunately--I did it on the wrong target!:eek:

So, where does this help? On our Department qualifications, we shoot at full-size B27's, from 3 to 25 yards, two handed. So far, I have cleaned this course for 8 consecutive qualifications.

[chadwimc]

I think I'm guy #2
My friend and I were at an ondoor range shooting pistols. He with his latest wonder nine and me with my .45. I was keeping all shots in the center of a "bad guy" target at 21 feet. He remarked that"my groups were not very good". I answered that "if the target was at the end of my hallway, he would be in a world of hurt". He would keep fussing with his pistol in the next booth, claiming he couldn't get consistant groups, would I look at it? I gave it the once over, inserted a magazine, and shot the tightest pistol group of my life(PURE LUCK it was). I just set the piece down said "I don't see anything wrong with it except its dirty" I left him with the impression that I could shoot like that any time I wanted:D

[VirgilCaine]

I shoot my centerfire pistols/revolvers at distances of 3-10yds. Those distances make sense in a SD scenario. I'm happy with 3-4" groups.

I shoot my rimfire pistols at NRA silohuetts (sp) at 25-50-75-100yds.

With my High Standard Sharpshooter I can hit up to 12 out of 16 most of the time. I have "ran" 16 out of 16 before, but not very often. Maybe 4 times in my life.

[clt46910]

I have never shot as good as I want to...and probably never will.

But I keep trying...:D

I want all rounds in one hole, exactly where I intented to hit....So I have a lot of work to do...:o

[Buzzard]

I love to shoot at 10 to 25 yds but then I get great satisfaction at shooting my .44 mag at 100 yds and hitting gallon jugs of water, I have even shot a few times at 200 at bowling pins....don't hit them every time but I h ave fun and keep trying to get better.

[Double Naught Spy]

Me - If you can't put three shots right on top of each other, from at least 15 yds away, within 1.5 seconds.....then no, that is not good...so keep you mouth shut and keep shooting!

It is good you can spend hours getting a perfect target group of 3, but what is the point? Are you doing this speed marksmanship for defense purposes? If so, hitting the same hole is a dumb idea because subsequent shots fail to create any new damage. Besides my guess if that you are shooting for hours to try to accomplish this task, you may accomplish it via random chance more so than skill. Also, a 1/4" target group at 15 yards is probably tighter than your pistol is capable of shooting unless you are shooting some form of highly tuned bullseye gun. Considering 1" at 25 yards with a combat pistol is considered to be a very tight group, then 15 yards would produce a 0.60" group, more than double the size of what you are wanting to attain.

Then there is the factor of fouling. As you continue to shoot, the accuracy of the gun will change depending on the temperature of the barrel and amount of fouling. It will be very difficult to attain such precision when the bullet isn't likely to be actually heading out to the same spot each time. Here, by precision I am saying that not only can it be done, but also replicated such that you actually know you have the precision versus random chance.

If this is for defense shoot practice, then you probably have sufficient skill already for marksmanship and you should consider spending your time more wisely on addressing other self defense issues such as your draw, mag changes, malfunctions, shooting on the move, etc.

If someone shoots a handgun at someone from 15 yards or more, that person likely is going to prison.

My guess is that Boss Spearman heard this somewhere from a source he deems to be an authority and is passing it on as fact without having any actual knowledge that this has ever been done. There is nothing in the law that says you can't defend your life with a handgun at more than 15 yards, not in the US.

[281 Quad Cam]

My pistol range time is mostly to ensure proper functioning of the pistol, as well as some rapid fire that should stay on a man sized target at less than 5 yards.

I guess if I find myself in a gun battle at literally 50+ feet away... I'll just accept that I didn't train hard enough.

But who says that 50 yard relaxed slow firing at a range will help you in a high intensity gun fight where someone is shooting back at you. If you can keep from flinching under fire while you hold that perfect isosoles stance and prevent yourself from jerking the trigger... I guess you win.

[Trip20]

I shoot at 15 yards, and only at 15 yards. Reason being is this is the closest target holder at my local range. If I could shoot at closer distances, I would.

There's no point at me shooting at 25 yds, 40 yds... and beyond, because I can only consistantly get a 6 inch group at 15 yards right now. Of course I'll get a 3" group (real rare), and some 4's and 5's... but mostly it's a constant 6" group.

I've always told myself if I can hit an 8" x 11" piece of paper with every round, off hand, regardless of how fast or slow I'm firing - this will serve me well.

When I get better, I may try for longer distances... but I don't see the need at this point.

I always hear people talk about their small groups, shot from pistols, off hand... and I shake my head. Because, right now, it seems near impossible for me. Especially with a short bbl pistol.

[bigwillys]

My proudest shot was from my glock 22, 50 yards, hit the metal plate, the plate is about 12 inches by 12 inches square.

Durring our requal for work we sometimes have fun, this was one of our little mini compititions we had...we started at the 5 yard line, you take one shot, then go back 5 to 10 yards depending on what the range master said to do...had all the time in the world to make your shot....the longest was fired from a sig 226 I belive or 228 whichever is the full sized, at about 70 yards!!! fun stuff

[.45 Vet]

As has already been said, "I never shoot as well as I want to". Mostly it seems to depend on how well the person I'm shooting with does.

Of course as I get older my vision and MEMORY seem to blur a little. Now several years ago there was that one season of matches that........ :D

[swmike]

It's nice to shoot tight groups at the range. The answer to the "test question" is can you do it when it matters. You might be laying flat on your A$$ with the BG coming at you with (fill in the weapon here). You might even have a few rounds being tossed your way by your attacker. How about a few environmental factors like wind, rain, snow. Did you just roll out of your car?

Practice is great (and necessary) but as it is widely known "no battle plan withstands the first shot in a war". Score me with #2. If The BG goes down I figure I scored 100% on the "Final".

[gb_in_ga]

Seems to me like there's this mentality of some posters, where they seem to think that there are really only 2 "valid" reasons for shooting handguns:

1> Self Defense
2> Preperation for #1

Well, folks, that's not me. While I don't argue that the above 2 reasons are not perfectly good reasons for shooting handguns, I'll not limit myself to them. I don't buy into the "if you keep them inside of a paper plate circle at SD ranges, that's all you'll need." mentality, because I don't limit myself to just SD and preparation for such.

What about small game hunting at ranges up to about 25 yards? Can you hit a squirrel in the head if it is up there in a tree? Folks, that requires accuracy.

What about medium game hunting, like for deer? Ok, you'll still need to hit that paper plate sized target, but at longer ranges than typical SD scenarios.

What about just trying for the tightest groups you can get, because that's what marksmen do?

[dave_in_delaware]

I'm a combo of guy #2 and guy #3. I'm also a newbie, so I'm developing my philosophy and methods and attitude as I go to the range each day, and as I research and learn info online and in magazines and books, and get pointers from people at the range.

Personally, I believe that any circumstance that I may find myself in will be a self-defense situation, so I only practice at a self-defense distance w/ my pistol. Yes, I know that leaves out hunting, or super-accuracy tests, but that's ok w/ me at this point.

At my range, the closest "mark" on the floor is 20 feet, so that's what I've been shooting at. I try to vary my methods to avoid boredom (at the same distance): isosceles, modified isosceles, strong stance... two-handed grip, one-handed grip... slow aimed fire, rapid fire, point and shoot.... I'm trying different methods and combinations, because you may not have time to get into a perfect stance/grip/aim in a SHTF situation. My goals are geared more to self defense shooting, just hitting COM consistently, and getting off as many controlled/accurate shots as possible in the least amount of time. I'm not concerned so much with hitting the center of the bulls-eye. Which is why I'm designing my own COM-type targets, instead of using bulls-eye types. I'm also planning on carrying concealed, so I'll be adding holstered draw-n-shoot exercises soon.

Overall, I'm happy that I can put all the shots on a letter-sized piece of paper, especially w/ being a newbie as of Father's Day this year. I've been using bulls-eye targets so far, and always aim for the center, so it does still bug me a little that my groups are usually low and left. But, if I think "self defense situation" my groupings will still hit COM on a BG, so it's all good. :D

I try NOT to worry about the other people at the range. When I hear them bragging about their 2" groupings at like 50 yards, I have to remind myself to look at their setup: usually a handgun w/ a scope, and on a sandbag or other stabilizing rig. I think "Well, gee, I could probably get those groupings, too w/ a scope and sandbag!" But, I don't use any aids (no scope, no sandbags, no leaning on the wall). I stand unaided, handgun in my hand(s). It's self defense, not bulls-eye shooting. I also have to remind myself that I'm still new to this hobby and won't be a marksman any time soon.... I used to think everyone else was a shooting god, and that I just sucked. I used to leave the range extremely frustrated and ready to just quit while I was behind....

But, I learned something VERY important when I was at the Rally Point a few months ago, and it has helped me tremendously (mentally anyway). From watching other shooters, I realized that many of them aren't very good, either. :eek: Even if they've been shooting longer than I have. I sort of assumed that I was the worst shot there. But it wasn't true. That was the most helpful tidbit of info I brought back with me. now I know that other people are in the same (or worse) boat as me. It has REALLY helped my game. Now, I don't have to feel inadequate of my abilities around others. I'm not ashamed of my low-left groups. Because in self-defense practice, I'm hitting COM every time. And that's definitely good enough for me (and the BG).

So, since I'm only at the range for an hour at a time, and thinking "self defense distances," and varying my exercises, and always hitting an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at 20 feet, AND having fun... I think I'm good to go, and I leave the range happy and satisfied now.

[deadin]

gb in ga;

Ka-Ching!! Amen!!

Dean

[spacemanspiff]

some days i am a good shot. other days i'm a so-so shot.

but that only means i might do well against an attack from a piece of paper stapled to a cardboard target stand. says nothing of my skills in a self defense situation with an adrenalin dump, diminished motor skills, tunnel vision, not to mention the dull pain in the lower back from the 'pucker factor' i'm sure i'll be experiencing.

[CobrayCommando]

I think the relationship between self defense and range practice is a paradox. You've got a 50 percent chance that if you do have to defend yourself with a handgun it will be 5 feet or under, at those ranges accuracy is barely a factor.

What matters most once you've got rudimentary accuracy mastered are things like drawing the gun, clearing malfunctions, shooting at moving targets, practicing shooting while wounded and lying on your back, accurate speed shooting etc. And you cannot really practice these things at the majority of shooting ranges.

So I think when you're at the range it makes sense to practice a bit at 5-20 feet, but mostly at ranges of 10-50 yards.

Then practice the other stuff elsewhere.

[progunner1957]

I would judge "ultimate" marksmanship excellence by Olympic shooting standards. In the Olympic shooting sports, the competitors are known to shoot one hole groups with pistols at 25 meters - offhand! "Free pistol," I believe they call it.
The rifle competitors do about the same @50 meters. That's A far cry from the guy who shoots 32" groups at 5 yards!!as long as I hit the paper, I'm satisfied! (ummm, excuse me, but "the paper" doesn't shoot back!)

As far as "self-defense shooting," I work for 1-1.5" groups at 7 yards (I want to be able to accomplish a head shot in a hostage situation), 6" groups at 15 yards and chest/gut hits at 25 yards. Those are my personal standards. If I can meet them consistently, I feel like I am a competent shot in the realm of self-defense shooting.

[stephen426]

This is not a flame but here it goes...

For all of you who think you have no problems shooting from 15 yards... Do it under stress and see how much your groups open up. If you normally average 3 inches, you can at least double that. If you are worse than that, good luck hitting anything. This is not a joke. How many of you guys actually fire multiple shots? If you don't practice this, you will be suprised that it is not as easy as you think. What about engaging multiple targets quickly?

As for H&K4Life, it is great that you always strive to be better. That is the only way to improve. An IPSC or PPC competitor will fare much better than the person who only shoots at stationary targets under slow fire. The problem is that not many ranges allow that kind of stuff unless you compete. Don't settle with good enough because you life may depend on it. Competition and practice really carries over to muscle memory when the stress kicks in!

[Trip20]

The problem here is we're discussing what's "good" and "not good" based on all types of shooting situation (i.e. self-defense, target shooting, hunting...etc).

What I consider acceptable on paper, isn’t necessarily so when speaking of self-defense.

--Since I haven’t had to defend myself by firing a weapon at a bad guy, I have no idea how well I can shoot in self defense situations.

--Since I don’t hunt with a pistol I have no idea how well I can shoot when I see a 10-point buck walk in front of me.

--Since I do target shoot with my pistol, I’m satisfied with my accuracy when I consider how little time I really practice and train. This does not mean I think I'll be Wesley Snipes if I'm involved in a hostage situation, nor does it mean I'll be bagging elk out at 200yds with a Ruger Single Six (.22lr cylinder installed :D ).

One thing I can bet on, is that the better I am with the weapon - even just target shooting, and by burning the fundamentals in to my brain as second nature through target shooting/practice; it can sure help me in a self defense or hunting situation.

[Mannlicher]

There are a variety of different hand gun needs. An expert at one, might not be so good at another.
The fellow who practices one discipline, say IPSC, might be lacking in essential skills for hand gun hunting.
I don't play hand gun shooting games, but I am quite qualified for SD or hunting.

[blackmind]

Sometimes I find myself searching for the 'Holy Grail'. I am never satisfied. I will shoot for hours, no matter what the drill, until I get three shots on top of each other...you know, the 0.25 inch group!...well....I have not done it yet, is there anyone out there who has? (distance > 15 yards / time <1.5 seconds)

This must mean you're still at the range trying for it, yes?

You said that you don't stop until you do it, and then said that you haven't yet done it... :p


Just yankin' yer chain. Good luck in your pursuit. I'm one of the, "As long as I hit some substantial part of my target, I'm good to go" people.


-blackmind

[DT Guy]

AFA what's 'good enough' for self-defense, here's an alternative view on distances and target sizes:

http://www.thegunzone.com/well-enough.html



Just some food for thought.


Larry

[stephen426]

When I got my first gun, I made a promise to myself to not carry it unless I practiced at least once every 2 months. I know having a gun can save my life, but a stray shot can also take another person's life. 6 times a year isn't all that much to reduce the chance of hitting bystanders an the resulting civil lawsuits.

I travel a lot for work and unfortunately I have not been able to keep up the 2 month requirement. I do go at least 4 times a year but I still do pretty well. I get nice tight groupings at combat distance (3 inch groups with a Glock 26 at 7 yards) and respectable groups at 15 yards (all in the black on an NRA 25 yd. pistol target).

My question is should we set a minimum level of performance or minimum number of rounds fired for ourselves before we carry in public? This goes double for crowded places. I bet there are people who carry on a regular basis who haven't practiced in ages. They might not be on this site but I think my father-in-law falls into that catagory. Is it fair to say I prefer to be able to defend myself with my gun even though I may kill bystanders?

[blackmind]

No, it's not "fair" to set minimum accuracy standards.

Not everyone will be having to defend themselves in the same circumstances. Not everyone will have to draw and fire in a crowd, or even anywhere there may be bystanders shot.

What if some guy rides a bicycle on the side of the road 7 miles to work in a rural area. There are yahoos in a pickup who have been harassing and beating up/robbing out in the middle of nowhere. This guy should have to be able to put 3 inch groups on paper at 7 yards? Who's he endangering by using a gun to defend himself out on a rural road when three guys leap out of a pickup to roll him?

Plus, let's not forget that in the majority of cases, the gun doesn't have to be fired.

PLUS, let's remember that even though you can put 3 inch groups on paper in the safety of a range, you are unlikely to get accuracy anywhere near that if you are firing in self defense against some trio of yokels who are out to stomp you. What's the difference at that point whether you had good range accuracy if you're going to be no better than this guy once TSHTF?

As I understand it, EVERYBODY'S accurace goes to crap in the dire circumstances of SD -- to some degree or other.


-blackmind

[blackmind]

Plus, give some credit to people for being able to decide a shoot/no-shoot scenario. Obviously, even if I can't overlap shots on paper I am not going to start firing blindly in the middle of a mall parking lot just 'cause I can.

Put a little faith in people's judgment.


-blackmind

[imur_huckle_berry]

hear hear

+1 blackmind

[stephen426]

should we set a minimum level of performance or minimum number of rounds fired for ourselves

Maybe I just take the burden of responsible gun ownership more seriously than others. I live in Miami and there aren't too many rural places around here. Please note that I did say the restrictions would be self imposed. I am in no way dictating what you should do or not do, but rather encouraging everyone to maintain a level of proficiency to reduce the chances for "incidental damage" should the need to defend one's self arise.

[clt46910]

If you practice on the range and you can make those one, two, or three inch groups then when TSHTF you will have the TRAINING to use your gun and make the shot. When the mind goes into panic mode it will rely on the training it has received. If your training is shooting small groups, your mind and muslces are already taught to do that. If you train your mind and muscles to only hit the target then most likely you will be spraying lead all over the place.

I believe if you are going to carry you have a responibility to be able to use your gun in a way not to endanger other people. That includes being trained enough to be reasonably able to hit what you are shooting at. That also includes actually shooting your gun on a regular basis. How you train and how often you shoot would be a personal option, but I don't think a couple times a year is enough. I personally believe that one should shoot their carry gun at least twice a month. I use to empty my gun everyday when I came home, but I had a range in my back yard and could. I know most can not do this. But a short stop at the range for 45 minutes or an hour every other week is not, in my opition, asking to much for the safety of others and your own confidence in your abilities. Don't have to be weekends, maybe after or before work, maybe lunch. Whatever works for you.

I believe it is "fair" to expect a certain amount of responibility, confidence, and ability from someone that carries a gun just as I do with anyone that has a drivers licence. Yes...I know about some of the drivers out there. I would hope, us on this forum, are a little more responsible then that.

[9mm1033]

FWIW: After all LE shootings are critiqued, the involved officer has ALWAYS said, an actual shooting situation doesn't compare to firing at a paper target, no matter what the distance. If memory serves me, most police defensive shootings are within the 10 foot (+ or -) range. Up close and very personal. My max practice range with a handgun is 25 feet. Normally much closer.

[625]

I consider myself good, not great with a handgun. I shoot my handguns a lot more than my rifles and my shotgun these days. But hey, that's what training and practice is all about for most of us. It's fun, and we strive to get better. No need to ruin your day by being angry with yourself that you didn't shoot as well as you wanted. Have fun, be safe, and remind yourself that you will get better.:)

[us.armysniper]

i consider myself to be a poor shot with a handgun but just like with anything else practice practice practice, so that is what I do. I have come a long way since I first started and have shot pretty desent groups, one of which I posted not to long ago that i was quite proud of. When at the range I shoot 75 percent of the time at 3 to 15yds and 25 percent of the time I shoot at 25 yds much farther than that i think is streaching the means of a handgun, In my personal opinion a pistol is means to a rifle, i will use the side arm until I can make it to the trunk or the closet depending where i am at! If i have to shoot someone at past 25yds, than they aren't possing much of a threat to me, well in a self defense type scenario.

[Musketeer]

If someone shoots a handgun at someone from 15 yards or more, that person likely is going to prison.


That really depends on the situation. Granted the primary goal as a civilian is to usually get to safety but there are always cases where the lives of others are at stake or running further, into the open, could be worse.

The late Mark Wilson in Texas engaged a bad guy in Tyler Texas armed with a rifle. I know it wasn't at the normally close ranges self defense shootings occur at though. Mr. Wilson put lead on target but failed to drop the BG due to body armor. At this point the ability to put lead on a head sized target may have saved his life. Perhaps he tried, perhaps he didn't. We do know he exchanged shots with the rifleman before being injured and eventually executed.

Tyler Texas had to be a worst case scenario for every CCW holder. A deranged BG with a semi auto rifle, also wearing a vest (not known until too late).

75% of my practice takes place at 10 yards or less. At those ranges, especially the closer ones, I focus on rapid pairs to the torso followed by a shot to the head. I will also practice a single aimed shot to the right between the eyebrows for the true nightmare scenario of a family member being held at gun or knife point. Beyond the close range though I will practice at 15 - 25 yards with individual aimed shots, both supported and unsupported, as there is always a chance of the worst case scenario happenning. Beyond the close range flash sight picture that is likely in 90% of self defense shootings I want to know I can hit a head at 25 yards incase I am ever thrown into Mr. Wilson's predicament.

For those who do not know Mr. Wilson saved the lives of several others by distracting the gunman and exchanging fire with him. Look up Tyler Texas and Mark Wilson in google for the story.

[us.armysniper]

I focus on rapid pairs to the torso

Beyond the close range though I will practice at 15 - 25 yards with individual aimed shots, both supported and unsupported,

that is pretty much my drill at the range as well, controled pairs at close range. i really enjoy reflex type firing and where my weaon is at the ready but the low ready, pull up shot down pull up shot etc. I allow my self a little more time for the farther out targets, like was said above taking more aimmed rather that quick shots.

[JohnKSa]

A big part of training is helping you to learn your limitations.

You may not be able to match the talents of a Delta Force Operator, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't carry. It means you shouldn't attempt head shots while under extreme stress. It means you shouldn't try to do hostage rescue at 50 yards with a .25Auto.

Know your limitations and don't operate outside them.

[USP45usp]

Nope. Average if that.

Wayne

[RandyDTC]

3 rounds, < 1.5 seconds, < .25 group, > 15 feet? From the holster? I do not think I can do that.

How about 10 rounds, < 1.7 seconds, just over 1.25" group, at 15 feet? That I CAN do.

Which would be more applicable to a defensive situation?

Randy

[Powderman]

Which would be more applicable to a defensive situation?]

Somehow, if you dropped that many rounds within 2 inches, center mass, I really don't think that the BG would stop, reflect briefly, then say "Indeed. You have not kept all of your rounds within one inch. Therefore, I refuse to be affected, and thus, will not die. Fie on thee!"

[TrumpetShooter]

I'm so glad I found this post. Even thought my accuracy is slowly improving, I questioned my shooting ability and the accuracy potential of my guns until I re-read these posts and fired one of those really slick target guns.

Below is my average 10-yard accuracy right now, after two and a half years of shooting, with almost 100% factory-stock equipment. The only modification I've made is a lighter main spring on my snubnose .38, and a "poor man's trigger job" on my Ruger Single-Six.

I. Taurus Model 65, .357 Mag., 4" barrel, shooting a mix of hand-loaded .38 special and mild .357 Mag. ammo

A. Two-hand hold, shooting single-action: 2.5" groups at 10 yards, no fliers

B. Two-hand hold, shooting double-action: 4" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers not more than 5" off center.

C. One-handed hold, shooting double-action: 6" groups at 10 yards, with an occasional flier off the paper.

II. Rossi Model 351, .38 Spl., 2" barrel, shooting handloaded .38 special ammo.

A. Two-hand hold, shooting double-action: 5" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers still on the paper.

B. One-handed hold, shooting double-action: 7" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers mostly still on the paper

III. Smith and Wesson Sigma 9VE, DAO 9MM, 4" barrel, shooting 115 grain Winchester USA FMJ ammo

A. Two-hand hold: 4" groups at 10 yards, very few fliers still on the paper.

B. One-handed hold: 8" groups at 10 yard, occasional flier in the dirt.

IV. Ruger Single-Six 22lr, 6.5" barrel, shooting 40-grain lrn Federal Champion ammo

A. One-handed hold: 2" groups at 10 yards
B. Two-hand hold: 3" groups at 10 yards
C. Two hand hold: 6" groups at 25 yards

V. Raven .25 ACP, 2" barrel

One-handed hold: Almost every shot on an 8.5" X 11" sheet of paper.

Now, here's the kicker. My best group ever was a sub-2" group at 10 yards with a borrowed .45ACP. I had never fired the gun before, and I didn't get any warm-up shots. It was a 10-shot group, and I was amazed at how slick the trigger was, and at how each bullet went right where I aimed it (after a few minutes of coaching before I took my first shot.) I don't remember the make of gun it was, but it was one of those foreign-sounding names.

I would enjoy that kind of accuracy all the time, but I would never carry a gun with a trigger that light. Maybe I'm not doing that bad after all.

[Abby]

I'm with clt46910 on this one as to the value of practicing for precision. Chances are, if it ever comes to down to defending ourselves in a CCW situation, we'll be lucky to have enough time for the following thought process:

"Oh ***!"
[draw]
"Oh ****!"
[BANG!]

That's why we practice the little stuff. Sure, a nice pretty little shot group might SEEM excessively picky, but it means that a shooter is doing the right things in the right way on the range. THAT dramatically increases the chances of doing the right things in the right way in real life.

And I wouldn't say it's a requirement - it's not my place to tell someone what level of proficiency they need to attain before they can defend themselves. For those just starting out, getting all the holes in the "5 zone" at 7 yards can be enough of a challenge. But once you're at that point, there's nothing wrong with moving the target back and working on fine control.

But we also have to remember - the holes in the paper at the range are only one part of the equation. I, for one, am pretty good at that. However, I'm pretty deficient in my drawing and presentation. That's where a lot of my focus goes now.

[TrumpetShooter]

Good point. To tell the truth, I don't feel all that gratified by shooting a decent group. I just want to shoot one better next time, and shooting for groups doesn't make me feel any more secure on the street.

I was robbed at gunpoint in April of 2004, and the robber shot at me. He missed my head by a few inches at about 30 feet. By this time I could undoubtedly outshoot that crook at the range. They don't give jailbirds range time (yet), and the good Lord knows the idiot didn't practice when he was a free man. But the range -- that's not where it counts, is it?

I need to get serious about drawing and presenting. I've done a little work in that area, but not consistently. Just last month I started practicing my draws. (I didn't count my "draw and fire" groups in the averages in my previous post.:barf: ) They hit the paper most of the time, but my speed is nothing to brag about. I'm also practicing left-handed a little.

One of the guys at the range taught me a drill that I've started to do when I'm alone at the range, which happens about once every couple of weeks. I stand with my back to the target, turn, draw, and fire. I repeat the drill with each gun in both two-hand and one-hand stances. It would be a whole lot better if I had someone to call "Go" or blow a whistle. I'm unable to "surprise" myself, :eek: if you know what I mean. At our range we're not allowed to draw and fire if anyone else is present on the firing line.

Do you know of some good defense drills for handgunners?

[Samurai]

I can draw and empty a magazine into a dinner-plate-sized area on a silouette at 15 yards (in about 4 seconds). If I take my time, I can reduce that to a tea-cup-sized area (about 30 seconds).

I consider myself a rank-amateur.

[Dave R]

My BIL is in the FBI, and he totally changed my mind about my training goals.

First time he and I shot together, I consistently made smaller groups than he did, at slow-fire rested and offhand. That's generally how I shoot. I want to improve consistency and group size. I even made smaller groups than he did with HIS service pistol. I was feeling pretty good about myself. I asked him how he trained.

He told me that he was taught, and he firmly believes, that the ability to draw from concealment and get the first few rounds on the target FAST is what will save your life. Shooting small groups at a distance is a valuable skill, but not the skill that is likeliest to save your life.

Then he demonstrated, drawing from concealment and putting 4 rounds in a palm-sized group at 10 yards, so fast that I could not believe it. He said getting the first round on target fast was key, and putting multiple rounds on target fast was also important, becasue one hit was not likely to stop a threat.

I tried it, and although I was nowhere near as fast as he was, I was also nowhere near as good as he was at putting the first round on the target fast.

So I changed the way I train.

I can't do fast draws from concealment at my range, so I have to practice that in the garage, with Speer's plastic training bullets. My draw time and accuracy of first shot have improved significantly.

At the range, I still do some slow fire at long distance, for small groups, because I enjoy that skill. But I also do some rapid-fire drills, trying to keep several rounds in a reasonable group, as fast as I can. Its a muscle-memory thing, getting the sights out of recoil and back on the target consistently.

I should probably get involved in IDPA or IPSC, too.

[threefivesevenmag]

After I started doing pistol matches, you really learn what your skill level is at in terms of drawing, shooting different angles, hands, positions, etc...etc...

I go to the range twice a month and do a match once or twice a month. Since I've been doing it a bit over a year now, my "skills" are much better.

I will say, punching paper is quite boring now...I mean really boring...as standing there and taking aim it's easy to get 1-3 inch groups.

I'd suggest getting into some pistol matches and see how well you do. It's very humbling and you learn a lot! You might think you have skills...but you learn quickly from mistakes and inabilities you hadn't even considered.

You learn how you react if a gun jams...you learn to get your gun into battery quickly while focusing on the target...tactical reloads, getting a gun from an odd position (ala picking up a stranger's gun from a distance and taking cover...loading it and operating it from that point)...I mean some scenarios are really interesting and make you think a lot more about what you need to really take action if you had to. Plus, it's a lot of fun with a group of like-minded individuals.

I know it's no substitution for simmunitions training, etc...but it's as good as I can get right now and I feel a lot more confident in carrying and skill set since doing matches.

[King_chin0]

I'm sure someone already said this, and there are many who disagrees with me, I think everyone should practice all drills, target, self-defense and all. Be an all around shooter, not just to master one, I mean it is good to master a shooting style, and I hope people would strive to master any shooting style, hip shooting, benchrest, etc. But you never know what is going to happen, and can never predict anything, so being a good shot with any style is a very good idea. So get going and practice!!!!:D I'm on my way to the range

[stephen426]

I fully agree that tight groups are secondary to getting shots on your target quickly. That is why IPSC stresses speed while providing some latitude on accuracy. The alpha hit zone is approximately 11" x 6" for COM and 4" x 2" for head shots. Bravo shots are head shots outside the 4" x 2" alpha zone and is 6" x 6". Charlie shots are torso shots outside of the alpha zone and measure roughly 12" x 18". Delta shots are torso shots outside the charlie zone and measures about 18" x 24". All of this can be found here... page 49.

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf

So what is the whole point of all those measurements? Basically, alpha hits are considered critical hits since they are located where the medulla oblongata lies for the head shots and a serious chest wound where close to where the heart, lungs, and spine lie for the COM shot. It does not matter if the shots are right on top of each other or on opposite ends of the alpha zone. As long as your shots are in the zone, they count. As Dave said, his brother in law in the FBI trains to get his shots on target quickly rather than going for pretty groupings. This could be what saves your life, especially if the bad guy has a gun pointed at you or is already shooting at you.

One type of practice I highly recommend that is similar to what TrumpetShooter said is having the gun at low ready and firing at specific parts of the target as quickly as possible. There are targets that have 5 individual targets on them which can be numbered with a marker. Have a friend call out the number and try to hit the corresponding target as quickly as possible. With practice, this greatly improves your target acquisition time and improves your point shooting ability as well.

Try to get used to how your pistol points and shoot without looking "though" your sights. For close distances, you should be able to hit your target very easily. I practice with an airsoft gun at home and have gotten to the point where I can hit my 6" x 6" sticky target from across the room (about 15 feet) while moving laterally. I look over the top of the gun to align the sights rather than looking through the sights. I also use my arm and body to align myself to the target. I know airsoft is not a substitute for life fire, but you can practice much more often and the practice still translates into muscle memory if your airsoft gun is very similar to your carry gun.

[rem33]

I hope to never even point at another person so I don't shoot at targets that look like a human. Guys I see at the range that do I tend to shake my head and look away I don't even wanna talk to them. Gives me the thought" hmm wonder if they hope to shoot someone". Thats my feeling on that but I live in a very small rural town, with a very low crime rate.
We usta shoot plastic one liter bottles at 100 yards with our single six's the game was who could hit it first free hand, or stand up shot gun shells at 50 feet or so. I have a Ruger SP101 two inch in a 357 and on occasion it is with me but I hope to never use it and if that situation comes up I will depend on all the hours I have spent with a pistol in my hand to protect me.
Unless your a cop or in the service I see no need to be practicing shooting people. Just learn to be a good shot and very familiar with your gun.

[Axion]

If someone shoots a handgun at someone from 15 yards or more, that person likely is going to prison.

I think that you're right in that you're going to have a much harder time proving that you were in fear for your life if you shoot someone 50 ft away. But I still practice as 75' because I read hear, and believe, that this is the best way to make your accuracy at 30' really good. A couple weeks back I was shooting decent (by my standards) groups at 50'. The next week i worked mostly at 75', but when I dropped back to 50' it was soo much easier to get tight groups.

[Rangefinder]

I spend most of my serious time on the long range with my rifles. I do work with my handguns every time I'm at the range, and yes--if I take my time on my shots I can stack 'em pretty tight out to about 25 yds. But for defensive purposes (which is the main purpose of my handguns--not including the fun factor) stacking the tightest group possible isn't practical. As stated earlier, fast, accurate delivery of the first few rounds is what will likely make the difference. Think of the physics behind a bullet impact with the focus being on the temporary and perminent cavity. If you DO manage to stack the second and third shot right on top of the first (on an advancing agressor, while in a high-pressure situation), you're actually minimizing the effect of the follow-up shots by shrinking the area effected and greatly increasing the possibility of a pass-through (not something desirable in an actual shoot situation). As it's been said many times before, you will react how you train. For that reason alone, I try to maintain a fast but instinctive 3", 3-shot group at 10 to 15 yds, with the first at tight CoM and the other two above to form a triangle (that's the general goal anyway). Yes, I can tighten it up, but for defensive shooting it defeats the purpose of the loads I carry.

[rhgunguy]

If I keep two in the "A" zone on an IPSC target in between .5 and .75 seconds at about 10 yards, I am happy...for now. Would I like to be quicker? Yes. Would i like to shrink the impact area? Yes. Would two shoots center of mass in .5 to .75 seconds probly save my life? Who knows, but I would hope yes. Realisticaly, you would not want to place two or more shots right on top of eachother in an attacker as you are reducing the area damaged. But if you can put any three on any three spots, you ought to be fine.

[TrumpetShooter]

Rem33, I totally respect your aversion to shooting at a human target. I mean no disrespect by what I'm about to say, but I feel that I should say it. It might save a life.

The day I got robbed at gunpoint (in a nice suburban community with a low crime rate) changed my whole outlook on survival. Since that time I have learned that a majority of the school shootings in recent years have taken place in rural communities. In addition, criminals often follow people home from the place where they first spot them as victims and decide they are an "easy mark."

Most importantly, I learned that the criminals ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT HESITATE TO PULL THE TRIGGER. The one who shot at me had absolutely no remorse whatsoever. His only regret is that he didn't hit his target, as that target came back to bite him in the back side in court.

We are good, moral people. We don't want to think about shooting someone. That sense of good and right within us can possibly become a deterrent to our survival, if it causes us to hesitate at the thought of defending against a violent attacker. We never know when we will be called on to save a family member, a friend, or even our own lives. When we are under attack, there is NO TIME to hesitate; no time to think; no time to philosophy, no time to decide. We must only react. That reaction must be correct and it must be immediate. Only proper practice can place us in a position to react to an attack with confidence.

You and I are not like the criminals. They don't care whether you live or die. They just want what you have, or they want to hurt people for reasons you and I would be hard pressed to comprehend. So, we must practice. I believe we need to rewrite the the old adage: "Practice Makes Prefect." It is not exactly correct. I believe "Practice Makes Permanent" is closer to the truth. If we practice incorrectly, our memory, including or muscle memory, becomes engraved with that incorrect practice. It becomes necessary to utilize the most life-like targets and techniques available to us in order to cut down on the hesitation factor.

Again, with all due respect, our hesitation to shoot at a FAKE human target may translate into hesitation to shoot at a REAL human target. That is a recipe for death.

We can ill afford the luxury of deciding to carry a gun only in "bad neighborhoods," because the bad guys know where the money is. They make most of their hits in ritzy neighborhoods. In addition, how many times have you heard someone on television say, "I never thought it could happen here in (fill in the blank with your town or neighborhood)."

I applaud the heart and spirit that does not wish to do harm to another human being. I feel that too. I only hope it doesn't take a robbery or worse to make Americans wake up to the real threats that lurk in the shadows of even the nicest communities and countrysides.

[Powderman]

TrumpetShooter:

Bravo, sir (or ma'am). Bravo! Well said, indeed.

To Rem33:

There is a rather popular saying that has found truth many times, and that is that you will fight in the same way that you train.

As TrumpetShooter stated most eloquently, the beast is alive and breathing. Those who would do harm to other human beings have NO compunction about hurting you, and about hurting others--even hurting your loved ones in front of you.

I speak from the experience of being both a sworn police officer, and from living the first 18 years of my life in the City of Chicago, mostly in the Englewood neighborhood, where I have seen first hand the terrible things that human beings can do to another.

And, believe me, thugs and criminals COUNT on our repugnance as decent human beings to keep us in check; indeed, keep us entranced in horror as they commit their crimes. For it is the initial contact--the first, usually most violent part of the encounter that instills paralyzing fear in the victim, and allows the criminal to complete the deed.

However, criminals have one trait that is universal--and that is that they are all cowards at heart. They will flee headlong at the first sign of organized resistance.

If a mugger or rapist sees a petite, slender female walking alone around a corner, they might be inclined to commit an assault. However, if the female's six-foot five inch brother who is built like an Olympic bodybuilder comes around the corner, they will more than likely turn away.

If a burglar or jack artist sees a home where he thinks the occupants are asleep, he might pull out the burglar tools and get to work...

right until the 90 lb. Belgian Malinois who was asleep in the living room shows him a mouthful of teeth.

The person who decides to commit a strong arm robbery on you, as your family watches might think that he has it made..

Until he finds himself looking down the gleaming blue steel of a Smith and Wesson revolver, hollowpoints visible in the cylinder, and above it all your basilisk stare, fixed in firm resolve with the unspoken message right in line with that front sight.

So, train. Get used to shooting those silhouettes. I pray that you never have to use a firearm to defend your life; but if you do, don't hesitate--and don't miss.

God bless.

[clt46910]

I think one of the things that are being missed here, is that the ability of tight groups on the firing range means you can be able to shoot accurately.

Under stress you will not be able to do this. But because of your ability to shoot so accurately at the range will mean you should be able to keep your rounds within a smaller range then someone that can not shoot so accurately. If you can stack one round on top another at 25 feet. You will be lucky to keep them within 6 inches under stress. So looking at lack of damage from stacking rounds is unrealistic. If you feel that being able to keep them on paper is good enough. Then hitting your attacker would be very hard under duress and would be mostly just luck. Do you really want to count on luck.

Yes, tactical training and practicing draw and presentation are best. But as some have said, they don't have a range that allows that. Practice what you can at home. Then try and keep your shots as tight as possible at the range. The muscle memory and eye hand coordination you develop will pay off in a confrontation.

[rem33]

trumptshooter and Powderman,

Well said both of you, but I do think you have completely misunderstood me. I am not a pacifist in any since of the word. I would and have defended me or mine. I have lived where I carried everyday, everywhere, even when it was not legal. San Bernardino for a couple of years in the late 80's. Gang members everywhere, I didn't live in a good neighborhood. I felt it was better to get caught with it than without. It was never even pointed at someone but there were times it felt good knowing it was there. There was no way to even apply for a permit.
I feel proficient enough with a hand gun to protect myself and mine and support any ones right to defend them selves or their family, or property probably more than the law would allow. It is just I hope to never shoot anyone ever, not that I wouldn't, and I am not going to practice such and don't support it unless your a cop.
Go shoot a target that is not a human. Get lots of practice and be very familiar with you gun. Don't practice something you never plan on doing as your much more likely to do it. Not to not be prepared.
Good grief I have shot pistols many thousands of times and killed hundreds of animals hunting, so I am not against shooting stuff.

[JohnKSa]

I'm not going to get dogmatic about using humanoid targets...

However, there is reasonably good evidence to support the premise that the more realistic your practice is, the more likely it is to carry you through a defensive encounter.

Likewise there is reasonably good evidence to support the premise that a failure to practice in as realistic a setting as possible can result in hesitation to use deadly force and/or a complete lack of response.

Lt. Col Dave Grossman's book "On Killing" provides some very interesting and valuable insight into this.

[BigJimP]

I'm between # 1 and # 2 - but even at 45 feet I'd want a group the size of a basketball at the biggest - in that upper chest area with say 12 rounds in 20 seconds - with a reload.

Putting 3 shots on top of eachother - off hand at 45 feet - is just a pure accident in my opinion. it would be nice but it isn't practical.

[Tokamak]

I always try to shoot the center of every bulls eye and constantly critique my shots to see what I did wrong. Did I flinch? Did I wait to long to pull the trigger causing excessive shaking? Did I see the bullseye go past and rush the shot? Etc. Etc. Etc.

I can NOT hold the sights steady on the bullseye. The best I can do is waver around it and slowly pull the trigger hoping for a hit near center.

One handed, at 25' I get most hits within a 20" diameter or 10" radius circle - so I am usually withing 10" of my targeting point. Thats with a .357 with a 2" barrel. I can get much better groups, down to about a 5" with my .22 lr Ruger Mark III with a 6 inch barrel.

In a real life situation, I will settle for a hit in the chest with a .357 - anywhere in the chest. I seem to have that ability at 25' and I am pretty happy with that.

No mater how much I practice I can not seem to get any better than I currently am, but I keep trying to improve.

So I strive for perfection and have to settle for what I am capable of.

[LICCW]

I'm a perfect shot as long as no one is shooting back at me, I'm not being robbed, no one is breaking into my house, and no one is at the range to see my groups.:p
In reality, I have my good days and bad days. On my good days, I'll tell you one inch groups at 25 yards are a must, on bad days I'll tell you as long as i'm hitting somewhere in center mass I'll do OK when TSHTF. But no matter what level of expertise you may have, just keep on practicing!

[Deaf Smith]

Am I a good shot?

Well I'm so fast on the draw I go back in time. Plus I shoot so strait space warps to make way for my bullet. And I fire so fast the bullets stack up in the barrel.

But really I'm just an average Texan shooter.

[CrackerJim]

I think the gentleman that said "Practice makes Permanent" is right on target (pun intended).

When things go bad, the muscle memory you've developed will allow good shots with out thinking about it. To me, this is key, as there will be no time for running down the checklist of proper shooting technique.

My buddy and I were at the range today. What ever else we're shooting, I always put a box through my snubby. I'll start with two cylinders of two handed slow fire at 15 yards for fun (all in dinner plate size area).

Then the other 40 rounds at 5-7 yards off hand and not looking at the sights but bringing the gun up, point my arm and shoot. This is both left and right handed (half each). Much of it is from the gun laying on the shooting stand (holster draw is not allowed at the range; out in the woods I'll draw from my pocket holster - getting the gun out of the pocket and properly set in my hand as it comes up is important) and two shots each then one shot (5 shot S&W) At this distance, the shots are all inside the dinner plate sized circle.

To me, this is the minimum skill to maintain. Perhaps down the road, it'll shrink to salad plate size :D .

Jim

[rem33]

CrackerJim
Sounds like good practice to me.
I used to throw the older beer cans that weighed more than now and practice slow draw, a Single-Six point and shoot. Got to where I could hit the can at the 40 or 50 feet I could toss it 50% of the time. Skipped one down a dirt road like in the movies once. It was great fun and no doubt you developed into a fairly good off hand shot.

[The Canuck]

I mix and match my target ranges, rates of fire and rapidity of target acquisition. I cannot get a CCW (Canadian) but I know from experience that the range and conditions under which you might need to fire will never be a set piece. The ranges will vary, the targets presented will vary, the light copnditions will vary and so will the needed amount of force (number of rounds) to stop the criminal.

[MACK_USCG]

In the Coast Guard our first course of fire is from the three yd line. 3rds in 6sec from the holstered position. We train to draw the weapon right from the holster, tuck our elbow in to our side, keeping the weapon paralell to the deck fire 2 rounds and the third round is strong hand supported. They say that in most LE cases that officers draw their weapon and use deadly force 3-6 feet away. Now in my job we work in real close to subjects while boarding vessels which makes it real dangerous for a gun grab or a knife attack. A study was also done and it takes the average officer the distance from a pitchers mound to home plate (roughly 21ft) to draw his weapon, sight in and eliminate a threat before getting knifed.

[Axion]

One handed, at 25' I get most hits within a 20" diameter or 10" radius circle - so I am usually withing 10" of my targeting point. Thats with a .357 with a 2" barrel.
I mean absolutely no offense by this at all, but if that was the best I could do I'd get a more accurate gun. Like many have said your accuracy under stress is going to be a lot worse then it is during practice and 10" is quite a wide margin of error IMO.

[revjen45]

Please do not take this a a flame. A more accurate gun is probably not the answer. Dry fire on a regular basis and ball-and dummy with the help of friend can be a big help in shrinking your groups. Shooting at longer ranges can help one's mindset in seeking accuracy, just as shooting at short ranges helps with speed. Being well-rounded is a good idea. It is true that SD situations are usually close up affairs, but a nice group at 25 yd always makes me feel good.

[Axion]

I made the comment about a more accurate gun because a) he said no matter how much he practices he can't do better and b) a 2" barel is pretty short so maybe a longer barrel might help.

[JJB2]

it's been such a long time since i've got to shoot my model 27 i don't really know how well i can shoot it anymore... i have shot my bowling pin swinger target before at around 30 yards and managed to hit every time... i have been shooting my 1022 custom lately and that thing is like a laser.... puts all the shots into group in the middle of the target i can cover with my fingertip....... I LOVE IT!!!!

[otasan]

An excellent test of one's shooting and accuracy skills under pressure is competition bowling pin shooting.

The pins are 8 meters away, and they need a lot of momentum applied to move them back three feet across a hostile table surface. This means handguns capable of achieving at least power factor 200ish. That's a 200 grain bullet at 1000 FPS, or a 230gr bullet at 870 FPS.

The target size is about the size of a 12-ounce aluminum beverage can.

Can a shooter use five shots to take off five pins at 8 meters, especially when going man-on-man against another shooter and his/her own table? Iron sights, by the way.

So there you have it. A high-powered handgun/ammunition, five small targets 25 feet away, and you are under a time limit or are trying to beat the person next to you. And it is all over with in a few seconds, just like the vast majority of gunfights.

It is too bad that the run-n-gun athletic shooting sports using game guns and low-powered calibers/ammo is what goes for practical shooting these days.

IDPA is pretty close, though.

[enikkor]

As a new shooter(about 1 year) I'm confused and mostly dissapointed
with my shooting and what kind of targets I like to shoot. I read of these
experts extolling the tight groups they do and there is no way
tht I can do it that good right now. I feel frustrated. Later my shoots are
now mostly in the black 9 or 10 " black paper circle and feel a little better,
shot at 25 ft. If I move the target 50 feet, most of the time I can hit paper
but the groups are not tight. When I move it 75 feet(25yds), my frustration
level increases and I'm unhappy with myself. I think I'm hard on myself and
think that I may not be giving myself enough time to develop bullseye
shooting.
Self defense practice is another complete different thing. At first I cannot
hit the human target, but as time goes on, my shoots are hitting the
target, mind you, not all are COM bullseye, but if you think about it, looking
at the target, even if the groups are not that tight, all are in the chest
(heart, lung, back neck) and the lower flyers hit stomach. If that was the
assailant, he is in trouble. I have to work on speed and precision.
We have to distinguish "Bullseye" VS self defense shooting. I think tight
grouping is a bragging right but there are other importantthings too.

[otasan]

You are too hard on yourself.

You shoot better than most LEOs and their lives depend on their marksmanship!

Like the directions to Carnegie Hall - practice, practice, practice.

It took me many years to learn to shoot cloverleafs at 25 feet.

[burnera]

In hair raising situations i refer to the author Douglas Adams: "Don't Panic"

[Vitamin G]

Was when i could consistently get outstanding groups with most all of my guns, and beat all of my friends in informal "scored" friendly contests. We did alot of offhand shooting, shooting with rests, plinking at iron plates at 100yards with 1911's, glocks, and BHP's. I was at the point where I could, on a good day, hit a 12" iron plate about 60-70% of the time at 100yards. I was quite chuffed with myself.
Then, on a juvenile moment, we had a (with attention to safety) "Matrix" style round, in which we ran laterally to the target while firing at it, from about 5-7 yards.

Imagine my suprise when i hit the target, once, out of 15. Did i mention my one hit was in the 5 ring? I was stunned.

Been doing alot of IDPA\IPSC style practice since then, and I've never done a match of either, other than the IDPA qualifier. REALLY opened my eyes that there are different "styles" of shooting.
I could make scrambled eggs, and considered myself a master chef.

[stephen426]

[QUOTE]Tight groups vs Human targets.
As a new shooter(about 1 year) I'm confused and mostly dissapointed
with my shooting and what kind of targets I like to shoot. I read of these
experts extolling the tight groups they do and there is no way
tht I can do it that good right now. I feel frustrated. Later my shoots are
now mostly in the black 9 or 10 " black paper circle and feel a little better,
shot at 25 ft. If I move the target 50 feet, most of the time I can hit paper
but the groups are not tight. When I move it 75 feet(25yds), my frustration
level increases and I'm unhappy with myself. I think I'm hard on myself and
think that I may not be giving myself enough time to develop bullseye
shooting. [QUOTE]

I can tell you that it takes a lot of practice to become a good shot. One of the most important things to do is learn from people who are better and more experienced than you. As someone else mentioned, practice does not make perfect, only permenant. If you have bad habits such as an improper grip, flinching, improperly focusing on the sights, flinching, jerking the trigger, moving your head to align the gun instead of moving the gun to align your sights, etc... You get the point. There are many things that you could be doing wrong that affect your accuracy and precision. You may even want to consider hiring an instructor or attending a school such as Gunsite or Thunder Ranch (provided you have the time and money to do so). I am fortunate to have a few friends that are excellent shots and compete on a regular basis. Maybe you might even look into joining a shooting club. Most shooters I've met are great people and very willing to share their knowledge and experience.

If you really want to improve, seek training first and then practice, practice, practice.
p.s. the second half of your post is dangerous. Are you willing to bet your safety on "good enough" shooting? You should never underestimate your advesary. It is better to make sure you are damn good when you take your safety into your own hands. One very important area of self defense training is being able to draw the weapon from concealment and have it ready for use in a very short amount of time (unless you walk around with your gun in your hand all the time). Other areas that are equally important is awareness (so you don't into these situations in the first place), and knowing when to draw and when not to. Good luck!

[Bill T]

Back when Arizona first came out with the CCW law my wife and I took the class and the instructor went on and on about how the only weapon that should be considered for home defense was the shotgun. He made some very good points as to why. He was into all this "Action Jackson" shotgun combat crap, and had the 18" barrel with the flashlight, laser, and a ton of other junk bolted, screwed, or glued to it. When we "qualified" with our handguns he critiqued my wife in front of all the others about her "stance" in spite of the fact she scored a perfect 10 with several X's. The following weekend he showed up at the club and shot trap with some of us. He broke 7 out of 25 with what looked like a pretty nice over and under. Melanie ran all 25. You should have seen the look on his face. Moral of story, an "instructor" does not alone make a good shot. Bill T.

[stephen426]

Okay Bill... a qualified instructor. There are always idiots out there posing as instructors. I hate to say it, but my wife's concealed carry permit instuctor falls in that catagory. I just tagged along for the class since it was just her and a buddy of mine. The state really should review their instructors. Not only was there very little useless information taught, he went on and on about his "experience" and treated most of his opinions as stone cold facts.

Like I said, find some shooting clubs and befriend the better shooters. That way you can clearly tell if they know what they are talking about.

[exprt9]

The answer is nah! I can't even hit the side of a barn with a shotgun and my eyes wide open at 5 yards. I just got lucky when I shot my Pistol Quals in the Navy.:)

[Vanguard.45]

According to the Modern Technique, a gunfighter should exhibit three qualities: Accuracy, Power, and Speed.

Pure, static accuracy is what we seem to be focusing on here, and what most people tend to focus on since most indoor ranges won't allow holster work, rapid fire shooting, movement, etc.. Basic marksmanship is important, but I guess I see the type of "small group" emphasis most people place on handgun work as being a bit out of place. If I were a bullseye shooter, then such tightness of groups would be vital. I guess I just don't expect to be mugged by a guy who happens to be standing twenty-five yards away.

For me, I put my training into an order of importance:

1. Weapon Familiarity (i.e. know the gun I am carrying and how it shoots)- involves knowing where the trigger breaks, point of aim vs. point of impact, what recoil I should expect to feel and how quickly I can fire multiple rounds and still be on target. Until I am COMFORTABLE with a particular weapon, I do not carry it. Dry firing is an economical (read "cheap") way to get much more familiar with a weapon.

2. Weapon Access (i.e. know how the gun is going to be carried and how to access it quickly in a variety of situations)- I do A LOT of draws and also work through scenarios with partners where we are in CQB situations and I must access the weapon. I have a website bookmarked which allows me to work on my draw and fire skills with a variety of time factors involved. Accessing your gun consistently and swiftly is an important skill.

3. Weapon Manipulation (i.e. working safeties, reloading, etc.)- Hopefully my "draw and dry-fire" work gets me familiar with my safeties, but reloading drills also are a big help. Some people overemphasize this skill, since they carry high capacity guns and probably will never need fifteen rounds or more in a defensive situation. Those toting 1911s, however, just might.

I guess I just don't get all hung up about having 2" groups at 25 yards. I figure that if I can keep all of the rounds on a body at that distance, then I probably will have time to devote to the other areas of my overall gunfighting skills.

I don't normally score at the top of my groups during qualifications judging simply by group size, but I am usually the first one to get a shot on target by quite a margin (in gunfighting terms) and my reloads are VERY fast compared with those around me. I feel that these skills might be a tad more important than worrying if I hit my enemy in the EXACT center of his chest or not.

Opinions vary.

Something to think about.

Vanguard.45

[Mister_Dinky]

Are you really a good shot?

Nope, just good enough for SD but I have fun shooting and don't let my mediocrity get in the way of that fun.

[FTCM USCG]

Since I now wear trifocal glasses...it's a real pain in the backside! Not so much for pistols, I can tilt my head to get the correct lens in my line of sight.

When I took my CCW class in AZ, we were out at the range. The Instructor (an AZ Highway Patrolman) came to look at my target...he looks at it, shakes his head, and says, "you're one of those people".

Needless to say, he confused me, so I asked what he meant. He said, "You're one of those people who try to put every shot through the same hole" (the entire center of the target was gone, after my first few shots, I had been shooting through the "hole" in the paper).

I replied, "I try to be as accurate with every shot as I can, if I'm gonna do something, I try to be good at whatever I do."

Rifle, however, is something different!!! I use to be very good! Nowdays, without a scope, I have no hope of seeing the sights correctly and seeing the target at the same time...getting older ain't what it's put up to be!!! Especially where vision is concerned!:( :( :(

[marlboroman84]

I've always found it odd that I shoot better at the targets that have pictures of guys holding guns and such on them than I do at silhouettes.

I can shoot in the x and 9 ring at 25-50 feet all day, but with a "person" target the "places that count" are always one ragged hole.

*shrug* who knows. :D

[Ronny]

No matter how good a shot you are, you'll always find someone better.

[RedPhnx]

Since I am not blessed with the option to carry here in IL, I train at 7yds and 15yds. 10 Yds is about the furthest straight line shot at my home and 15 is about the longest at our place of buisness. I also patern my shotguns at 7 to 10 yds. I always wish I could shoot better but I know that if some one breaks in I can get the job done.

[Jager1]

Although I agree with "Guy#1", I understand that a handgun may be pressed into service at longer ranges when a long arm is not available. At each range session, I always spend a magazines worth of ammo at the 100 yard line gong. I typically only hit it once per mag, but am usually close enough to it make it entertaining. I do much better with milk jugs and 2 liter bottles filled with water. :)

I disagree with "Guy #2" and "Guy #3". They always seem to be next to me every time I go to the range. :D

35 feet, 3" groups or less, handgun from the draw or standing, slow or rapid fire using successive shots. My standard. Works for me.

I also practice while moving, reloading, utilizing various cover or concealment. Of course, as others have noted, groups will widen as more stress is introduced.

[Tripplethreat]

H&K4life,If you're putting three shots on top of each other with a pistol.....
You're shooting too slow! Not a good habit to get into with a defense gun.

[Handyman]

My feeling is that if I become a good enough shot to consistently get good groups at 25 yards , shooting DA with my 4" revolver , [ for me that would be getting all hits in a 6" circle ] then anything at shorter distances will be easy . I wish I could shoot at farther distances but my pistol range is only 25 yards long . Shooting long distance [ 50 or even 100 yards ] with a pistol would be just for fun and my own satisfaction. If I'm practicing defensive shooting [ drawing my gun from a holster and shooting DA as quick as I can with my 2.25" revolver ] then getting 6" groups at 30' on a man size target would be good enough for me . But I'm always trying to do better than that . I'm fairly new to handgun shooting .

[Hardtarget]

gb in ga...I like your thinking! There are many good posts here with many view points...yours just rings true to me. I shoot because I like to shoot and I like to see improvement as I practice.
I'm first to say I do NOT shoot as "perfect" as I'd like to. Also, I'm 56 now. The doctor told me I have cataracts starting so If I can just stay respectably on target I'll be happy!
I shoot to have fun and enjoy my guns. I shoot to improve. I enjoy being out with my buddies. There are lots of reasons to enjoy our sport!
Mark.