What if Terrorist attack malls?

[AndrewTB]

Ok so I remember a notice the FBI put out after 9/11 about terrorist possibly attacking malls and grocery stores on busy days etc..


So its come to my mind since I spend a lot of time at my local mall. What would you do if a group of middle eastern men just started opening fire with the basic guns like AK-47? They would be much more effective then a bomb.


Personally I would not want people to die on my watch. Seeing as how im not legal too CCW id run out to the car and grab my gun. Then id think something up and try to pick them off one by one as quickly as possible. I personally wouldnt mind sacraficing myself if it were to save multiple lives including children etc...

To me this is the most likley SHTF situation. At least for now. Terroism attacks like that is all I really worry about.

I just want opinions on what you would do.

I posted what I THINK I would do. Can't say for sure though unless it really happend.

[kozak6]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177359

[AndrewTB]

CRAPP!PPPP!!

Thank you Kozak. Better use the search function.

[Ozzieman]

First off by the time you got your gun they would have killed all they were going to kill and like any low life murder like they are they kill then run.
Second since you have NO training you would just as likley kill an innocent bystander.
Having no gun the best thing to do would be to take cover.
If you have a gun (handgun) and they have AK47 the best thing to do is take cover, John Waynes in real life only get them selves killed, they dont end up with the girl or be the hero.

[smince]

Tom Clancy handled this situation in his novel "The Teeth of the Tiger".

[marshall2]

Don't worry, the Mall Ninja has been practicing every scenario, has his armor on, and will get 'em!
:)

[SamD]

Ozzieman,
Hero does not enter into the equation.
What does enter into the equation is that Terrorists make a point of taking into account the fact that there are always a social freeloaders that will never even try.

I absolutely hate those who won't even try. They might as well stay home and suicide for all the value thay add to society.
Ultimate loosers. :barf:

Sam

[gb_in_ga]

"Don't worry, the Mall Ninja has been practicing every scenario, has his armor on, and will get 'em!"

Yep! I mean, after all, what are Mall Ninjas for, anyway?

[Limeyfellow]

The ones you have to really look out for tends to be like that nutjob group from Texas that wanted to set of a biological weapons of mass destruction in a mall. That more likely to happen than the arab attack of the mall in the US and at least three plots like this with white supremist groups have been caught in just the past few years. Going in with ak47s in a mall is just not that effective when you can build a carbomb. Its more likely a bunch of disgruntled kids who would attack with rifles.

[Rob P.]

I agree, it wouldn't be a formal group of terrorists. It'd more likely be a Columbine type incident.

If the shooting is only IN the mall, your plan of action should be to get out of the common areas as fast as possible and into one of the stores. Do not duck behind bench and cover - move into one of the stores and get out of the line of fire. Stores have backdoors to the loading areas and then to the outside. Get out of the place and then get to cover.

If the shooting is only OUTSIDE the mall, stay put, away from the exits or windows or gallery's with outside access or view.

If the shooting is BOTH outside and inside, get out of the common areas and into a store. Have others watch the other access points and be ready to evacuate to other areas if the shooters come in. Yes you could be driven or herded to a slaughter area, but that takes time and hopefully LEO will show up before that eventuality happens. This scenario is unlikely as it would take a couple dozen participants to fully cover the exits and man the interior sweeps. Unlikey unless it was a terrorist group and they wouldn't choose a shopping mall for this type of act - more likely to use a truck bomb instead.

[PythonGuy]

An all too real type of scenario, FBI warnings about mall attacks has been written about in papers and on the net for the last few years. Sad part is there is very little you can do as these terrorist "cowards" sneak attack with bombs, as in the Spain and London bombings. The only solution is for our troops, since the rest of the world save England has no balls, to kill these vermin where they breed.

[USP45usp]

Sad part is there is very little you can do as these terrorist "cowards" sneak attack with bombs, as in the Spain and London bombings.

I have to agree, there really isn't anything that you can do, aside from following the definition of Militia and allowing 16 to 40 year olds to carry guns (but in reality, even I would have a problem with the 16 age in this day and age :( and even some 18/19 year olds) for the protection of the People.

IMHO we are going about this entire war on terror the wrong way. No, not the war in Iraq, I still believe in that just from my own experiences over there (the middle east, never been to Iraq) but what we are doing here at home.

Everyone is pointing toward the government to be there to protect them. Everyone is pointing at creating laws that remove our freedoms just so they have a feeling of security. Most people are making their plan A to involve the government, state or federal, and believe that is all they need to do.

Yet, we've seen what happens recently when that is the only plan that the People have, and we've seen that it doesn't work.

I for one, if I were the governor of a State, would not only have my National Guard but I would have in every city/town a People's Guard. They would have to bring their own weapons, as well as ammo, but I would set up training, as well as first aid training. I would also train in chemical and biological responses and give them tax breaks for buying their own masks, armor, first aid kits, etc..

Basically, I would ensure that the first responders started at the personal level and not the governmental level. And I would give them every opportunity to gear up to first help themselves, and then others (think of it this way, when you take a flight, the attendent states that you place the mask over your face first, and then help others, because you are no good if you pass out helping others first and then try to help yourself).

Sadly, the People have it backwards. And the government wants it that way. The People want the government to come in and save them, are ticked off when it doesn't happen, and then place the blame on them (the government) and the government doesn't try to help people help themselves because they want it this way.

And no, not paranoid, just watched, read, and learned from Katrina. As governor, the first responders would start with the individual and then go up the ranks, not the other way around.

Wayne

[AndrewTB]

If I didnt try wouldnt the person innocent bystanders end up getting killed regardless?

You have no idea how bad id feel if I didnt do anything. Not trying to bring a hero aspect into the picture. The way I see it is doing the right thing. If someones firing back theyll be less likley to target innocent people and have to direct fire towards the real threat.

[PythonGuy]

In NY, radio and TV commercials have been asking people to help out and watch for any strange or suspicious behavior, and if seen, report it. Ironic because in NYC you can barely own a gun much less carry it. Here on Long Island the laws are much more relaxed for ownership, but forget about carry unless you are rich or a celeb. So on the one hand they want you to be on the lookout, possible risking life and limb, on the other no self-protection for the rare occasion when it might be needed.

[AndrewTB]

USP,
I believe that terrorist have realized that bombings have been somewhat ineffective and easier to stop.

Id say a well armorer group of terroist can do MUCH more damage then a few tiny bombs.

Id defintley say terrorist are starting to loose their skill. They honestly seem to have gone way down hill IMO.

[USP45usp]

I believe that terrorist have realized that bombings have been somewhat ineffective and easier to stop.

Id say a well armorer group of terroist can do MUCH more damage then a few tiny bombs.

Id defintley say terrorist are starting to loose their skill. They honestly seem to have gone way down hill IMO.

Actually, they have ramped up the suicide bombings in the Middle East instead of using guns. Bombs are much more effective in a crowded area.

The only reason to "hit and run" would be to get the feds on your group so that other groups have the chance to carry out their attacks. Devert their attention (feds) and advance yours (the terrorist).

One of the things that I will not say about the terrorist is that their leadership is stupid. I can't underestimate them, no matter how much my American arrogance tries to get the better of me. And until I see the jerking action of the last leg of the insect we call terrorist, I will not rest or try to say to myself that they are done for.

I still say that our ability to fight this, is on the People and not on the government.

Wayne

[SamD]

The citizenry are always the first responders. Who do you think calls the cops and FD?

The political power in this nation belongs to the people, not the government. We only loaned it to them. If you do not think they are making good use of it, take it back.

The handgun has been proven to be effective against suicide bombers in the hands of vigilant citizens. Notice I said vigilant not vigilante. There is a difference. Don't ever go looking for trouble, but when you come across it act appropriatly like men do not like herbivores. Get your head out of your exhaust system and pay attention to what is going on.
Be vigilant and act appropriatly.

:barf: on social freeloaders, treat them with the contempt they deserve and avoid their company at all times.


Sam

[smince]

Slightly off-topic:

When the Rodney King verdict came down, my nephew and his wife were in the mall. Youth started running through the mall, overturning benches, garbage cans, and threatening people. He only had a pocket knife for protection. He pushed his wife into the nearest store and opened his knife in case he had to fight. Nothing came of it. But here is the kicker:

THE MALL WASN'T IN CALIFORNIA, but was in HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA!:confused:

You just never know what can happen anywhere. (He is a firm believer in CCW now;) )

[Glenn E. Meyer]

At the risk of not being a macho hero - I would suggest that for a civilian without extensive military or LEO training, you need to have some significant force on force training in this scenario.

Having a handgun and facing reasonably competent individuals with fully auto weapons (or good semiauto long guns) is quite exciting. You are at a terrible disadvantage. It is easy to say that you will be clever and will slink around and pick them off.

Easier said than done.

Expect to die - your most rational choice if you are concerned with self and family is to flee if you can. If you don't have to save anyone close to you, get out of Dodge.

Ok - you've decided that fleeing is not in plan and you fully expect to die - not that you won't try to live, but you know that ninja crappola aside, you are probably going to get hurt - the best plan I heard, is try to take someone down and get their long gun - then you are more reasonable in the fight.

If the group is together and trained - then prepare for your suicide run. Of course, you might take a covered position and plink them all down. One never knows.

I guess my point is that if one was truly worried about such stuff - rather than the usual what gun should I use crap on the internet - I would buy a quality handgun (like a Glock or a Sig) and except for ammo, I would spend the rest of my gun related money in real training.

[BillCA]

Glenn has some good advice there, along with others who advocate discretion as the better part of valor.

In such a scenario, anything you do can get you killed - including nothing.

So some nut jobs start whacking people in a mall with long guns. Panic ensues. You're armed with a 2" J-frame or a CCW Glock. You manage to get your loved ones into a store along with yourself -- so what now?

Try to get everyone out the back door or loading dock, even a side exit if possible. If you have to, get the store clerk(s) to lead people outside. YOUR job is now to play "rear guard" as you get your loved ones and your own fanny outside. You head is on a swivel checking out any access points to the mall and your primary goal is defense should one or more of them step into the store.

As to being "herded" towards a central area (whether for slaughter or hostages), if they're using gunfire to herd folks, the noise of that and screaming may be to your advantage. If you will pass close to a single gunman you may be able to use close proximity and the "surprise" several shots from your pistol to get his long gun. Or simply let him be and hope you can take out others that way.

[281 Quad Cam]

I would duck into the nearest shop (since malls seem to be loaded with them) and get into a back room, dressing room, etc. Anywhere I can fix my gun on one point and stay put till things clear up. Fight your way to it possibly, but dont pursue a running gun battle with a bunch of guys with rifles!

Unlike some apparently, I dont feel a moral obligation to put myself or my loved ones at risk to attempt saving others by attacking the gunmen. Escaping is really your only option.

IT IS important to have a "sort-of" plan for this possibility, but all in all it rates on the EXTREMELY unlikely portion of our scale.

[perception]

If I couldn't run away for some reason, I would probably try to find someplace like a narrow corridor to a bathroom or any other kind of funnel. I would hole up there, and pray they don't find me. If they do find me, well, the hall isn't wide enough for them to spread out and I am already aiming in their direction. At that point I would be simply hoping to get as many of them as I could before they got me.

[USP45usp]

Glenn E. Meyer

I would suggest that for a civilian without extensive military or LEO training, you need to have some significant force on force training in this scenario.

In this one, maybe since it's gun being used. But if bombs, I remember that older lady in Israel that blew the brains out of the suidcide bomber in the market place. She was right there, drew her gun, and blew out his brains so that he wasn't able to detonate the bomb.

I think that we need more of her around then more of those that will do nothing. She could have died if the bomber was able to detonate the bomb, but she acted first, thought about that later (I would guess).

Yet I understand the issue of family also. I will not call those that don't act a coward, as I will call those that did, a hero.

To tell you the truth, I'm tired of fighting among ourselves. The paranoid of where, when, if, why, should we, moniker that is put on others because of what they do or where they do it. I'm tired of fighting the "Us vs. Them" threads where it seems as if everyone is trying to force their beliefs on others and that this or that is right, wrong, indifferent.

I find that maybe we need more positive things, more smiles instead of frowns, more happiness instead of anger. More respect and like, less judgement and contempt.

Less intolerance and no second chances, more understanding.

I forgot who said it, posted it, but they basically said that we are all different but one thing is bringing us together, and that is the like of guns, our 2nd amendment rights, and our having and believing in both.

And this past year has shown me one thing, that life is short, there is no time for hate, anger, contempt, or intolerance.

Wayne

[smince]

Having a handgun and facing reasonably competent individuals with fully auto weapons (or good semiauto long guns)

Who says terrorists are "reasonably competent"? Their handler's don't spend any more time than necessary to give them the basic skills to MAYBE accomplish the act. Why should they? A new crop of "martyrs" comes along the next day. Religious fervor aside, they can't be the sharpest crayons in the box by the nature of the acts they commit.

Someone once said: "May all your enemies be on 'full-auto'"!

[AndrewTB]

Id have to agree terrorist are competent with guns. They use gun ranges and practices just as we do. If its a more organized group that came over from the mideast they have even better training.


I personally want to take more gun classes to prepare for certain situations plus have some fun at the same time.


Its a damned if you do damned if you dont situation.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ever see John Holschen's of Insights analysis or presentation on Al-Qaeda and terrorist tactics? It's been reprinted and used by OUR military.

You are silly if you underestimate your enemy and you are silly if you disregard risk analysis when deciding on an action.

The 9/11 hijackers were not incompetent and they certainly planned. They took rehearshal flights. They planned how to deal with resistance. While one can conceive of an attack on a mall by clowns, who we American gunslingers can pick off one at a time with a J frame and our superior marksmanship, might a real gun oriented attack by carried out by trained personnel who know how to act as small units and practiced against the random CHL person in ambush?

Of course, not. My point is to be educated and trained. Understand the risks - but it is more fun to posture.

[Boss Spearman]

I honestly feel we in the US have more to fear from another natural disaster like Katrina or an earthquake, or a medical disaster like the different strains of flu being discussed, than from terrorists attacks.

[smince]

The 9/11 hijackers were not incompetent and they certainly planned. They took rehearshal flights.

Someone did plan the whole 9/11 act, and the terrorists carried it out. But there were several times it could have been stopped if we hadn't gotten the "it can't happen here to me" attitude. I would say that the planners were 1000's of miles away. Funny how the leaders don't strap on a belt of explosives and lead the way, isn't it?

They planned how to deal with resistance.

The plan was for an area where they knew there was very little chance for any resistance. They counted on the "sheeple" attitude that most Americans have.

I'm not underestimating their intelligence. But I've also seen the "training video's" with lot's of "spray and praise Allah". I just don't believe they are competent with firearms.

Despite what you hear on the news, our boys are taking them out by a respectful margin.

[CarlosDJackal]

...opening fire with the basic guns like AK-47? They would be much more effective then a bomb...

I disagree with this statement. If I was a terrorist intent on killing as many infidels that I can, I would use some sort of IED in as many crowded locations that I could. If I could do some government-sanctioned "red cell" exercise so that we could all see just how easy this would be for someone with the right motivation, knowledge, and imagination (Any government agency who wants me to do this in their jurisdiction can contact me offline - I'd be willing to do it for free).

First of all, a couple of men running into a mall with AK-47s are easier to spot and engage by anyone who also happen to have a gun. This is not so with IEDs. The next time you go to a mall, just take note of the many possible locations someone can put one of these devices whether on time delay or command detonation.

Second of all, running around with an AK-47 is basically a suicide mission. You might as well strap an HFEID on your chest and blow yourself up if you are going to do that. Whereas, if I were to plant these things and be long gone before they go off, I can do this as many times in as many different locations as I want.

Third of all, if you wanted to victimize as many people with rifle fire, do what thos DC criminal snipers did. It still amazes me that no terrorist organization has tried to copy what they did. They pretty much held MD, DC, & VA in panic for all those weeks and teh whole nation captivated. What more can a jihadist want? JM2CW.

[CarlosDJackal]

I honestly feel we in the US have more to fear from another natural disaster like Katrina or an earthquake, or a medical disaster like the different strains of flu being discussed, than from terrorists attacks.

While true, it does not mean taht we should discount the possibility and we must plan for it (I know I am). FWIW, this seemed to be the prevalent attitude up until 9/11/2001. JM2CW.

[losangeles]

[THE MALL WASN'T IN CALIFORNIA, but was in HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA! ]

Wow, that was a real kicker, smince. That's a few thousand miles away from the Rodney King incident! :eek:

[itgoesboom]

The following is just my humble opinion:

1. Depending on the type of operation, terrorists may or may not be trained for combat. Bombers who have explosives strapped to them will likely not have effective training. But those who require training to ensure a completed mission will likely have solid training and very thorough planning.

Example is ofcourse the 9/11 hijackers who not only did practice runs on the very aircraft they would hijack, but also carried and used pepper spray to deter people from fighting back, and were trained in martial arts in case people did fight back.

2. As we have seen in the middle east, the favored weapon of the terrorist isn't an AK-47, it is an explosive device. Why shoot 10 people when you can blow up 45?

3. If a terrorist group does do a shooting at a mall in the USA, you can be sure that there are also explosives involved. Either set on timers for the rescue personel, or at the exits to catch the evacuating shoppers.

4. Going after multiple trained adversaries(see #1) who are armed with long arms while you are armed only with a pistol and maybe a reload or two is suicide.

5. If you do fight back and take one of the terrorists weapons, you will be easily mistaken as a terrorist as well. Responding officers or other CHL holders might very well take you out.

6. The advice to get down a narrow hallway is a good one. You have concealment (if there is a corner), and the element of suprise is back on your side if they come down the hallway. Also, often times these little hallways that lead to bathrooms also lead to small exits.

7. Avoid the main major exits. If the terrorists want to inflict more casualties, they could easily place explosives there.

I.G.B.

[marshall2]

The mall scenario is bound to happen someday. What then? All the malls will install metal detectors, and people will be searched as they enter the malls. There goes ccw down the tubes, I'm afraid. I foresee the curtailment of many civil liberties in the future.

[smince]

All the malls will install metal detectors, and people will be searched as they enter the malls.

I'm not sure about this. Have you seen all the metal keys and other assorted items women carry in their purses? Not to mention jewelry. And big belt buckles on men. I don't think they will risk their customer base. Metal Detectors probably won't work at malls.

I went to an event at a very large auditorium recently. The tickets said all would be searched, but I didn't see anyone being searched.

My wife was afraid that the "shoplifting sensors" at the doors of the Wal-mart would detect her CCW until I explained it to her.

[THE MALL WASN'T IN CALIFORNIA, but was in HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA! ]

Wow, that was a real kicker, smince. That's a few thousand miles away from the Rodney King incident!

Some will use any excuse to go on a rampage. It wasn't just in Huntsville.:)

[Sulaco2]

Um, don't think the terr's as the Afticans called them are "going down hill" one site I read and was on the news recently showed 3000 bomb attacks around the world in the last few years.

[Texas Pete]

don't worry the mall ninjas will climb up the walls and do a ninjujitstu flip kick and take them all out.


sorry I had to.

[Musketeer]

Tom Clancy handled this situation in his novel "The Teeth of the Tiger".


That was the only good part of that entire god forsakken novel... oh the depths to which Mr. Clancy has fallen....

I have already told my wife what to do in this event. Every mall I know of that we go to has a service hallway leading to the outside connected to the back of each store. That is where we are going ASAP. 95% of the "herd will head either towards the action/noise (stupid but true as behavioural scientists ahve noticed studying terrorist attacks in Isreal) or away. In either case that means a flood of people going both directions in a hallway packed with panicked people. Not the place to be. The service halls though lead out to loading bays and the like. The majority of people in those will be employees who have the sense to run, although history has shown many people will stand around trying to figure out what is going on. No matter what we want to be where the FEWEST people (targets) are. As soon as we are in the hallway I will then lead the way out. My logic is any terrorist in the main mallways will be far more focused on killing the masses than to bother with the 5% running down a service way so once we are on the way our rear is not my main concern. I would want to confirm any loading docks/exits are clear though before sending the wife and child through to safety.

[10-96]

OK, ya'll have pretty well got the mall talked about, whatsay about a pro-football, or any other very large and packed sports stadium? Movie theater? Hospital? Cruise ship? University, college, elementary schools? Be observant- yes, but out of curiosity- how many have taken a neighbor or friend to the range and encouraged CCW classes? How many have started urging folks to push and/or endorse your ideas to your elected officials for change? How many keep up to date with actual security threat info reports? Just curious. How many find it easy to sit back and throw stones and be armchair strategists and know all the answers but don't even lift a finger to help this country out? Just curious.

[smince]

10-96: Of the places you mention, the theater is the only one (depending on jurisdiction) where it may be legal to CCW. Schools/Universities, hospitals, cruise ships, and sporting events are or may be restricted areas. Not everywhere, but many areas. One may not be able to fight back in these areas even if an opportunity presented itself.

[Lucky 7]

Um stop reading Tom Clancy! lol
Seriously it will be quick and violent and so much blood.
Its proven in combat that those who are unproven and/or new to the violence combat brings, wuss out (seen it w/ my "Team Leader"). Plan and simple. Unless you were seasoned in Nam or Iraq or any conflict inbtwn or on the streets (as an officer), youll panic, youll shake, youll freeze up. And even those seasoned will do all of the above a lil bit.
To take action in combat you need to cross the barrier into violence..and it's a very tall, jagged barrier to cross.
Semper Fi!
-L7

[AndrewTB]

I think terrorist suited similar to the men in the North Hollywood shootout would do much more damage then bombs. Especially if its a large group of men who can cover exits etc...

[smince]

I think terrorist suited similar to the men in the North Hollywood shootout would do much more damage then bombs.

These "terrorists" wouldn't have done nearly as much damage if the officers involved had rifles earlier in the confrontation.

[cmreinke]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/ap_on_re_us/mall_shooting;_ylt=AouIkMw086pPnM1h.9Lr3ZSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MjBwMWtkBHNlYwM3MTg-

Too bad there were no mall ninjas on hand when the real thing happened (there was only 1 "terrorist", fortunately).

...Or better yet, any CCL holders. Fortunately no one died, and the bad guy was caught. But think that this highlights the most likely situation that any of us will face (if any).

-Charles

[AndrewTB]

LOL I just came here to post about the shooting. I was like *** where the ninjas at!

[Sulaco2]

Um appears there was at least one CCW holder there, but was more concerned about getting his family out intact. Can't say as I blame him at all.

[Bobarino]

light hearted banter for y'all, serious business for me. my girlfriend works there. she is very, uh, NON proactove when it comes to sef defense. not sure what to do. hope i guess.

Bobby

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I read a report that a patron tackled the guy and was then shot 4 times until the gun jammed.

The responding officers were regular patrol officers with active shooter training who formed up and went after the guy.

[cmreinke]

Um appears there was at least one CCW holder there, but was more concerned about getting his family out intact. Can't say as I blame him at all.

Really?! Where did you hear/read that? I agree though: the first priority of anyone with spouse or kids in a situation like that would definitely be to get their family out of harm's way, rather than try to be a John McClane-like hero.

-Charles

[Glenn E. Meyer]

John McClane in Die Hard I and II was always trying to save his wife. She was in Naktomi tower in I and on a plane in II.

Three was crappy so I never watched the whole thing on the tube.

[NB4ZOT]

I'd first locate my target (terrorist BG). I'd then unholster my 686P 6" with super hot handloads. Then I'd do a shoulder barrel roll on the floor and take refuge behind Cinnabon kiosk. I'd take the first guy out with a head shot. Then I'd shimmy downj the giant Xmas tree in the skating rink, make my way behind the SunGlass Hut stand and take out the next two perps with chest shot to one and a leg shot to the other. I'd then take their weapons (AKs presumably). I'd interogate the one I injured to get the postions of any IEDs. I would then alert bomb squad to locations.

At that time I would set aside an hour for TV interviews and taking #s from hot babes who think I rule.

Pretty straight forward.

[Mannlicher]

well, I guess no one in Tacoma thinks like we do. That little weirdo shot up the place, and not a single soul challanged him :(

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I don't think that is true. I read that one guy tackled him and got shot 4 times. I haven't followed all the stories but wasn't there a CCW type who chose not to shoot also.