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AngryAzn
September 16, 2005, 11:29 AM
Anyone with experience with 12ga rubber slugs? How effective are they and any recommendations on brand? Are they available for purchase by non LEO's?

JR47
September 16, 2005, 11:44 AM
Sellier & Bellot catalogs 12 ga. Rubber slugs, and, I believe, rubber buck shot, too. They are available without an LEO restriction. However, they can be just as lethal as lead or steel shot. :)

AngryAzn
September 16, 2005, 01:22 PM
Ok, so rubber is lethal, anyone got experience with the Bean Bag Loads?

Dfariswheel
September 16, 2005, 01:44 PM
ANYTHING that's fired out the barrel of a shotgun is lethal at close range.

As far as the law is concerned, shooting a gun at someone is a deadly action and it doesn't matter if you were shooting buckshot or feathers.

If you're trying to give an intruder a break, and you don't want to kill them, you'll have to find something else instead of a firearm.

Remember: THEY won't be giving you the same consideration, and NEVER, NEVER plan on getting more then ONE shot in a real situation.

You had better make that one shot a good one.

To quote famous Border Patrolman Bill Jordan, "Like being pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting someone just a little bit. If you HAVE to shoot someone, shoot them GOOD".

The problem with all the "less lethal" ammo is this:
First, it OFTEN fails, even when used properly.
Second, it often causes serious injury or death, even when used properly.

Less lethal ammo is STRICTLY for use by the police, and only when they have sufficient backup standing by with lethal ammo to end the situation when/if the less lethal shot fails.

At 3:00 am in your bedroom you're not going to have backup, and in most cases you won't get but ONE shot.

AngryAzn
September 16, 2005, 02:32 PM
Excellent perspective, I completely agree,

However, I ask not because I am looking to give someone a break, but rather I'm facinated by the different loads and applications. Until this morning's thread I didn't know there was a load which creates a flashbang type impact, simply amazing. Now is there any real world application where I would need to use this, probably not. Would I like to fire a few rounds, absolutely. If it is safe I'd like to fire as many different loads as I can. :D

OneInchGroup
September 16, 2005, 03:40 PM
If you are into reloading, there are a number of slug kits that can be built up with a payload other than lethal slugs. www.slugsrus.com sells a kit that lets you roll crimp a shell with the primed hull, powder, and wad, and then add whatever you want for the projectile AFTER you have made up your shells. There's a 1/2" round 1/2" deep "payload pocket" in the front of the wad that you can pack with whateveryou like. Maybe dye marker for identifying folks after the riot, or maybe a load of salt, or a .50 BMG bullet (Single shot only, too long to feed in a pump gun) or a personal favorite, a bunch of rifle primers to make a big noise against pavement, perhaps??? :eek:

Dfariswheel
September 16, 2005, 07:33 PM
If your just interested, there's ALL KINDS of weird shotgun projectiles around.
Few of these really work, and no one with any sense would ever dream, of using them for any kind of defensive purpose.

Among others:
"Chain shot".
This is a take-off of the old practice of joining two cannon balls with a length of chain for use against ship's rigging.
In this case, its usually two or more large lead buckshot joined with nylon cord.
Actual performance: Wildly inaccurate, and contrary to claims, the cord causes the shot to fail to penetrate as deeply as it normally would.
It does NOT "cut arms off".

"Flash Bang"
Advertised as a SWAT round, when fired it makes a loud bang, and supposedly a bright flash.

"Dragon's Breath"
Some type of metallic powder that when fired, ignites and sprays a long flame out the muzzle.
It's bright, and the flash extends for a fair distance, but users have reported barrel scoring, and brush fires.
Can kill or maim if fired at a person.

Rubber slugs and buckshot.
The rubber buckshot is used by the police by firing it at the ground in front of a rioter. The rubber shot bounces off the ground and stings the legs.
When fired at the body, at close range it can kill, and at farther distances can easily destroy eyes.

Gas Rounds.
These usually fire tear gas. At close range it can destroy eyes, and at farther distances is ineffective.

Dye rounds.
Used to mark suspects. When fired, a long lasting dye is sprayed on the person. At close range can injure eyes or exposed skin.

There are many more, limited only by people's bright ideas.

As above, you can make up your own loads with whatever.

yorec
September 16, 2005, 09:12 PM
+1 to Dfariswheel's comments. With the addition: The problem with all the "less lethal" ammo is this:
First, it OFTEN fails, even when used properly.
Second, it often causes serious injury or death, even when used properly.
Third, it is very easy to make mistakes and USE it improperly creating the first two deficits in the first place...

kozak6
September 16, 2005, 10:49 PM
Fourth, "less-lethal" ammo is very often lethal when used within 30 feet or so.

Death from Afar
September 17, 2005, 03:52 PM
Stay away from rubber shot for HD. If you are shooting at someone , you need to have grounds to kill them. If you dont have grounds, you should not be shooting at them. Simple as that. #4 buck is the way to go.

Long Path
September 17, 2005, 07:41 PM
Stay away from rubber shot for HD. If you are shooting at someone , you need to have grounds to kill them. If you dont have grounds, you should not be shooting at them. Simple as that. #4 buck is the way to go.
I've got to dissent here, a little bit.

If the means are as effective, but you can avoid killing a person, take that route. The only question is the efficacy.

Some folks may live in trailer parks or the like, where overpenetration is a SERIOUS concern. Rubber shot might be a worthwhile consideration in such a circumstance. Realize, of course, that you can only fire it when deadly force is authorized.

A word about terms: It's not "Less than lethal"-- it's "Less Lethal." The difference is that the latter term recognizes that it is still capable of causing death or serious bodily injury.



I'm mildly surprised I haven't seen any claims of how folks' daddy used to use rock salt. Not that I'd be inclined to believe them; I haven't seen such a shell in use, yet.

Death from Afar
September 18, 2005, 03:40 PM
Thats a good point long path- but if overpenetration is a serious concern, why not use #8 shot? With an open choke the shot string is so wide at such a short range, it is less than lethal? But I agree with you fully- you only fire when you have ground sto use leathal force, which creates a trap with rubber shot.

OneInchGroup
September 18, 2005, 05:31 PM
:eek: Another dissent taking place here guys. If the scenario for less than lethal rubber pellets, or whatever, is that you plan to use such stuff for home defense, then you are about to understand the definition of, and also to become, an oxymoron.

Only justification there is for firing on an intruder, under the laws of most every State, is to fire in defense of your life or the lives of others who are in imminent danger of a fatal attack by whoever the target turns out to be. Most states also require you to prove that lethal force had to be used to stop an attack of the same threat level, so you better be sure not to shoot a burglar who only has a keygun to fight you with. AND be sure any and all shots you make are front to back, because continuing to fire on a fleeing felon will get you a manslaughter, or at least wrongful death indictment to deal with.

In the People's Republic of Maryland, the State's Attorney will STILL FILE CHARGES against you as a home and/or business owner if it is suspected that you "Anticipated the crime and planned to take unauthorized, illegal, felonious lethal action against the intruder rather than notify the authorities who are authorized to deal with criminals." (Paraphrasing an actual charge filed against one homeowner recently)

We have had a number of these cases filed against business people who stayed after hours in their places of business and "ambushed" criminals who broke into the places to burglarize them. One of the cases involved a storage warehouse owner who set up a welcoming committee after having been robbed 3 times before in a six week period, with no one ever caught by the police. Two felons were killed in a firefight that the robbers started. The business owners weer indicted and got to go to trial over it.

To "get away with" using force against a home invader in this state, first you may need to prove that you used a weapon that was NOT deliberately selected to ambush the poor criminal, but was a weapon of chance availability, like you "forgot" to unload your deer rifle after a hunt last year, and it "just happened to be" standing around your bedroom waiting to be cleaned and put away, someday. God help you if you used a tactical shotgun taken from a quick-release mount built in your closet. That's an "ambush" in Maryland, and you will absolutely be in jail a while over it.

Using either less than lethal weapons, or using lethal force that looks like the result of a specific planned response (read AMBUSH in the PRM) is going to get you locked up and all your guns confiscated until the legal beagles here have it proven to them that this was not a gangland execution and you are not a gangster yourself.

Plan to spend on average $100,000.00 on the legal defense, and plan on all your guns getting "lost" once confiscated, or held as "potential evidence for possible future prosecution", as you will most likely never see them again.

Solution? Make sure that there is no one but you left alive to explain what happened, and DO NOT call 911 until your lawyer is on the scene and you have shipped out your gun collection to one of your relatives or trusted friends who will lie about it when asked if they know what happened to the "arsenal" their "gun nut" relative/friend had been hiding at his house.

An arsenal in PRM is any storage area with over 2000 rounds of ammunition or more than 10 guns. Think you qualify? Most hunters do, and any plinkers have to think twice about going for a few bricks of .22LR when Wally World has a sale around here. Ony takes 4 bricks, and you need that arsenal license.

Best plan is to beat the perp to death with a claw hammer, so all they will confiscate will be your toolbox, unless they see your guns during the investigation, and figure you might just "act up" again..

The big trouble with all these threads about "Best Handgun for Self Defense", "What Shotgun Load for Home Defense", and on and on, is that for some reason everybody wants to talk about methods and procedures for probably killing somebody who is inside your home or business or trying to rob you on the street, but NOBODY gives a minute's thought to what your life will be like forever after, once the gunsmoke clears.

If you do not have an after action plan in place BEFORE the gunfire starts, then the one thing you can depend upon is that if you survive, your life will never be the same, and you may very well end up wishing the bad guy had just killed you in the fight, rather than having to spend years afterward trying to save yourself from all the crazy lawyers who will try to hound you to death frorever.

This is not the Wild West, and the Marshal is not going to walk around the scene once and say "Yup, that guy sure needed killin', good job."

You'll be damned lucky if the first response rookie County cop who shows up after the 911 call doesn't shoot you when you answer the door, what with you having forgotten to put your gun down first, and all. Can you say "The officer fired upon seeing a man with a gun at the scene of the 911 call?" :eek: