PDA

View Full Version : Vertical Grip


phear_this_mind
September 9, 2005, 06:41 PM
I am still fairly new to shotguns, but as this is my primary home defense weapon I am going all out. Here is a list of mods before I ask my question:

Remington 870 Express Magnum
18" Vang Comp Ported/Back Bored Barell
7 shell mag tube extension (as in 7 total shells)
Tac Star 6 shell Side Saddle
Cavalry Arms Ar15 Adapter
Magpull Adjustable Buttstock
Ergo Tactical Pistol Grip
EO Tech 552 Sight


That being said, I need a new forend. I am going to integrate a tactical light and I will definitely be using surefire for the light. The question is, do I want a vertical grip or a regular grip on the forend? If I get the regular grip then it's easy, I am getting surefires integrated forend with the light built into it. Simple easy. But, having never so much as held a shotgun with the vertical/pistol grip I do not know what the advantages are for shooting and in a tactical situation? The purpose of this gun is to function as my primary home defense weapon in case some bastards come into my home and attempt to hurt myself or my family or steal anything. I have a 9mm Springfield XD 9 and an HK 45 as backup. I fully intend on taking tactical shotgun courses.

Thanks for the help guys!

MEDDAC19
September 9, 2005, 09:15 PM
Ahh, never mind.

jrklaus
September 9, 2005, 09:19 PM
I've never felt the need for a vertical-grip forend...? Sounds like you are pretty well set already.

smince
September 10, 2005, 08:46 AM
I bought the Wilson Combat 870 forearm. It has the three rails, and rubber covers for the rails, $88.95. I put a TAC-STAR light on mine, simply because I had it. There are better tac-lights to be had. Mine has the Choate MK6 stock, Leupold mount with BSA Red Dot, 4-shot Sidesaddle. I stuck the vertical grip on, simply because I had an extra one laying around. I can reach the light pad with my left index finger either with the vertical grip, or with the standard grip I can use my left thumb. Gun is an 870HD w/Rem extension.

Dave McC
September 10, 2005, 09:13 AM
Just how much ammo have you put through this?.....

smince
September 10, 2005, 09:19 AM
Just how much ammo have you put through this?.....

If you are asking me, about 200 rounds (mostly buck). But I got the Wilson Pump for my birthday in July and have only fired about 20-25 rounds since it has been installed.

Why?

phear_this_mind
September 10, 2005, 03:30 PM
So are there any tactical/shooting advantages to a vertical grip?

MEDDAC19
September 10, 2005, 04:31 PM
I don't think the vertical grip will give you any more, or any less advantage than any other of the ninja stuff you have on your shotgun. The extra mag capacity might be needed if a gang of BGs storm your abode, but what are the odds of that happening?

smince
You would be highly proficient with your shotgun if you spent most of your money on ammo instead of on all the bells and whistles which don't make the gun any more effective.

aspen1964
September 10, 2005, 04:51 PM
..the only long arm I would like a vertical grip on, is a sub-machine gun...

rugerdude
September 10, 2005, 05:15 PM
ninja!

phear_this_mind
September 10, 2005, 05:17 PM
And for some reason you automatically assume I don't have any ammo fired through it or that I am not learning to use it? What is the harm in adding a superior barell, a better sight, the option to use a flashlight in night conditions, a better buttstock, and a side saddle?

I fail to see why that is all "ninja" stuff? I have the money to spend on making the gun all it can be as well as the money to spend on ammo and tactical courses to become more proficient with the gun.

So, being an ass and making assumptions doesn't really help. I am sorry if you feel that my gun is " super kung fu ninja" but you sound like a child who DOESN'T have anything helpful to add but still insists on opening their mouth.

I made it clear in my first post that I WILL be taking tactical courses in order to become proficient with the weapon JUST so I could avoid hearing pompous comments like yours. Since I am more than happy to admit I do lack some of the tactical experience with shotguns that others may not, I am only looking to gain their opinion in order to help fascilitate my own choices. In Ca, a shotgun is about the best home defense weapon you are going to have and why take chances? I will do everything I can for myself and for my weapon to gain the tactical advantage as I know that every small advtantage I can gain is worthwhile, or did you never learn that in your combat doctrine?

So, if anyone else has something RELEVANT to add to THE QUESTION I ASKED I would appreciate it. In case I wasn't clear enough, I have fired the gun and as soon as I figure out which way to go with the forend, I will start my training courses with the gun (so that I am learning on the same gun in the same configuration I plan to use).

Thank you.

phear_this_mind
September 10, 2005, 05:23 PM
Also, in response to your comment of "Unless a group of BG's storm your home, and how likely is that?"

Here are some statistics further demonstrating your lack of knowledge on the subject matter.


To quote:

" Of all violent crimes, robbery is the most likely to be committed by more than one offender. About 50% of all robberies involve co-offenders. About 8% of robberies involve groups of four or more offenders. 91% of robbers are male, 64% are under the age of 25, and 59% are African-Americans. Robbers typically attack their victims on streets or sidewalks (55%), near the victim's home (24%) in a variant called "home invasion robbery", or at a commercial establishment such as parking lots or garages (21%). Victims are typically robbed while shopping or traveling within five miles of their home."

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/300/300lect06.htm

So there's about a 1 in 4 chance that if I am robbed, it will be two or more suspects inside of my home. The reason I am going through all of the BS to get a CCW in CA is because the rest of the stats lead me to believe that if it is going to happen, it is going to happen near my home. If I am packing, that is sure going to help my odds and even if I just let him rob me and don't pull out my own firearm, I have the OPTION to do so. So if the idiot turns and runs away from me with my stuff, he's catching a bullet in the back of the head, self defense law be damned.

Thus, based on the stats, it would make sense to have a CCW and a reliable home defense weapon such as a shotgun with prudent upgrades, such as those I have described.

smince
September 10, 2005, 08:06 PM
smince You would be highly proficient with your shotgun if you spent most of your money on ammo instead of on all the bells and whistles which don't make the gun any more effective.

That's funny, since you have no idea of my proficiency with this or any other weapon. :rolleyes: Let me know how you really feel, O.K?

This isn't my first shotgun. I've been shooting them since I was 8. And I've a few 'courses' under my belt. I just haven't had time to wring this one out due to working 12 hour shifts 6 days a week.

Really, I haven't made up my mind whether to keep the vert grip or not. But, isn't America great. I own these things because I can. And if I find them to be less than ideal, I can remove them and sell them. Maybe advise others what I've found works and what doesn't.

Sure it probably can't do the job any better than an 870 Express, but then again, it might. Where is the fun in owning plain guns? I could drive to work in a Neon or Escort but my Cherokee is so much more fun.

As far as money, I have FAR LESS in this set-up than say a Wilson or Vang or an over-under for that matter.

rugerdude
September 10, 2005, 11:02 PM
Boy, it's fun to see people get their undies in a bunch over some lighthearted comments.

If you want to tacticalize your shotgun to the max, go ahead, more power to you. I think some people on this board are just making sure that you know that proficiency is better than accesories (yeah, guess what? There are people who don't know that)

Oh and I love the comment about the BG catching a bullet in the back of his head if he takes your stuff (read: MATERIAL POSSESIONS) and runs.......good luck with that, or rather, not going to prison for that. Gunowners have a bad enough image already, we don't need people saying things like "I'm gonna kill a man over my stuff."

Do you have any idea how that makes you look? "Self defense law be damned" hmmmm law be damned huh, well, with that logic in mind, let me go rob somebody, rape somebody, or hell, like you described, kill somebody. :barf:

law be damned. :rolleyes:

phear_this_mind
September 11, 2005, 01:08 AM
I don't know how it is where you come from, but I am not about to stand for someone pointing a gun in my face, threatening me with DEATH, robbing me, and getting away with it. You point a gun at me and say you will use it, then you have no right to complain when your head explodes. Once you've crossed that line and threatened to kill me while pointing a lethal weapon at me I have every right to terminate your ass the second it becomes a viable option. If the law says otherwise, then it is an incorrect judicial posit. I'm not gonna let him take 5 steps and change his mind about having a witness left alive.

Sorry, but that's just the way I roll.

flesheatingvirus
September 11, 2005, 05:00 PM
BACK TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND:

I would not go for a vertical grip. It is just one more thing on the front for something to snag on. I tend to keep all of my accessories (Surefire X200 light, shell carrier) on the reciever. Extra weight on towards the front makes aiming difficult, plus harder to bring up the weapon quickly and accurately.

Lord_Nikon
September 11, 2005, 06:32 PM
Man, what's wrong with an 870HD with a Surefire forend? How likely are you to need 13-14 rounds to defend yourself from 2 men in your home?

rugerdude
September 11, 2005, 07:49 PM
You can use deadly force when you are in reasonable fear for you life, not after when the punk is running away. How are you going to explain to the court that you were right, when the BG has a bullet in the BACK of his head and witnesses saw you put it there? (Hint, they aren't going to buy your "that's how I roll" ...... "stuff" for lack of a non-expletive)

I'm not saying that the dude doesn't deserve it, but rather that if you did do such a thing, you are VERY likely to be in BIG trouble.

If a BG robs me and runs, i'll let him go. Why? Because my stuff that he just stole isn't worth me going to jail.

(sorry for being off topic, i'll now contribute what I can)

I don't think that a vertical foregrip is going to give you a huge advantage, if you want to try it, go ahead, i'm sure some people like em' and others not so much.

IZinterrogator
September 11, 2005, 08:07 PM
VFGs usually feel awkward to the wrist when used on a pump-action gun. I'd go with the Surefire forend unless you plan to devote a lot of time to practicing with the VFG, i.e. learning how to control the fingers on the pressure pad while pumping. Also, the EOTech 552 is a 512 with night-vision settings. If you don't have a weapon sight-compatible NVG (such as the PVS-14 monocular), you should get the 512 and save yourself about 70 bucks. You may want to contact EOTech to see if the sight will hold up to prolonged shotgun recoil. Most electronic shotgun sights are designed to stand up to 12 ga. recoil. Most other electronic sights aren't.

phear_this_mind
September 12, 2005, 12:20 AM
IZInterrogator said:

"VFGs usually feel awkward to the wrist when used on a pump-action gun. I'd go with the Surefire forend unless you plan to devote a lot of time to practicing with the VFG, i.e. learning how to control the fingers on the pressure pad while pumping. Also, the EOTech 552 is a 512 with night-vision settings. If you don't have a weapon sight-compatible NVG (such as the PVS-14 monocular), you should get the 512 and save yourself about 70 bucks. You may want to contact EOTech to see if the sight will hold up to prolonged shotgun recoil. Most electronic shotgun sights are designed to stand up to 12 ga. recoil. Most other electronic sights aren't."


Based on the responces that I am getting, I think I am going to go with the regular surefire forend. The 9 volt will do 120 lumens for an hour. That seems reasonable.

As far as the EO Tech sight goes, based on the experience and research that I did with it, it can handle the recold. I got the 552 because they accidentally shipped it to me instead of a 512. When I told them about it they said it was my lucky day and just to keep it and avoid the hassel. So I said ... "K" ... and just went with it. I figured it wouldn't hurt and if CA every changes some of its laws I can pull it off the shotgun and mount it to another rail where NV might be more appropriate. So why not?

phear_this_mind
September 12, 2005, 12:26 AM
Ruger Dude said:

"You can use deadly force when you are in reasonable fear for you life, not after when the punk is running away. How are you going to explain to the court that you were right, when the BG has a bullet in the BACK of his head and witnesses saw you put it there? (Hint, they aren't going to buy your "that's how I roll" ...... "stuff" for lack of a non-expletive)

I'm not saying that the dude doesn't deserve it, but rather that if you did do such a thing, you are VERY likely to be in BIG trouble.

If a BG robs me and runs, i'll let him go. Why? Because my stuff that he just stole isn't worth me going to jail."


I may have been a little overzealous in my statements, but the fact remains that once he has a firearm pulled, the first chance I get I am going to terminate him. The next guy might not be so lucky. If I shot him in the back of the head, maybe it would be prudent to roll him over and shoot him in the front of the head also (I realize forensics would probably figure out what happened).

The idea that in our soceity someone can physically assault you with a firearm in their possession (such as in a typical mugging) and you can't shoot to kill even after he runs away is ridiculous. I figure all I have to say is "He heard something ... told me to stay where I was and he was gonna come back and kill me like the punk #$%@ that I am, and I figured here is a guy already pointing a gun at me, who robbed me, who is commanding me to stay where I am so he can return shortly and execute me. So, I shot him".

What DA really wants to put ME in jail given such an obvious circumstance and at least a decently believable story. "The guy was psycho, I was so scared. He told me if I moved he would kill me. And he told me when he was coming back he would kill me too. What was I to do!?!?"

I am not some idiot who doesn't realize the consequences of death. I don't think it's cool to go around shooting people and that it's worth killing someone over some material possesions. But ONCE YOU PULL THAT LOADED GUN AND POINT IT AT ME all bets are off b----. I think there are quite a few other successful, law abiding citizens who feel the same way.

- Casey

Lord_Nikon
September 12, 2005, 12:34 AM
I think the only thing I "phear" is his impact on how gun owners are seen.

phear_this_mind
September 14, 2005, 08:45 PM
Well, if the impact I have is that "gun owners generally take the time to learn how to operate their guns through training, practice, and research and they will not hesitate for a moment to put a slug in your ass if you unduly and immoraly threaten someone with your gun" then I will be happy.

Does anyone else ever watch horror movies where the bad guy runs around with a knife or a hacksaw and think, "Why are they so scared? All they need to do is go to the gunstore right now and pick up a nice cary 9mm and when the psycho killer BG comes at them for the next midnight attack with his knife/axe/chainsaw all the half naked girl getting wet from the sprinklers has to do is pull out the gun from her thigh holster and shoot the guy with 147 grain hollow points and watch him die" .... or is it just me?

If more responsible, intelligent, and willing people would carry guns then criminals would have a much tougher time. It is completely backwards that in our society the (generally) less educated violent criminals have more (physical) power then the educated law abiding citizens. If just 25% of the population carried regularly can you imagine what a criminal would think? "Oh crap, 1 out of 4 of these people is gonna be armed, and 1 out of 4 of the people surrounding me might just haul off and shoot me in the back while I"m robbing this old lady".

I know that I sleep with a loaded 9 mm within arms reach of my bed and the shotgun is concealed, loaded, and I can get to it from a dead sleep within 10 seconds. There is also a 45 hidden in another part of the house in case I am not in my bedroom and need to get to my gun quickly.

The point of all this? If more gun owners gave the impression of supreme competance and a willingness to kill when you pull out your gun and threaten them, people would be robbed LESS. Even an idiot BG knows $50.00 isn't worth dying over. As for me and my house? They can have my TV when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. You break in, I am shooting first and asking questions later. If that leaves a bad impression with people on this forum too damn bad. Don't burglarize my home and you won't have anything to worry about.

smince
September 19, 2005, 06:23 PM
Funny thing guys. I found out I'm actually a few thousandth's FASTER with the vertical fore grip.

Maybe the grip helps me use leverage to lessen the muzzle climb. Or maybe I can work the pump faster. Or both. Or neither. I just know I'm slightly faster vs the standard forarm.

459
September 20, 2005, 04:40 PM
would it be out of line to suggest adding a cup holder onto the end of a HD shotgun? lol..that way you got a place for your coffee. I think optics are useless for this purpose. I got a large hiviz red beed on the end of mine. But might upgrade to some triljicon or similar glow in the dark large ghost rings. You want something simple and hassle free. Im all for home defense..but so many loaded weapons? What about kids? Dunno..I would think the majority of the time..stored firearms should be unloaded...and the ammo kept hidden or seperate...Ive noticed theres lots of seriously good advice on this forum..then on occasion theres some hollywood movie fans living in a world of fear? hmm.

smince
September 20, 2005, 06:04 PM
An unloaded gun is a stick. What good do they do if not loaded?

My son is six and I've already started him shooting. He doesn't bother a gun unless he asks to see it first.

With that said, my shotgun and a .45ACP do stay loaded, but in the gun safe. I have double deadbolt doors and an Australian Shepard. Both SHOULD make enough noise to awaken me or my wife if anyone should try to enter illegally. However, I DO NOT feel that the time to load my weapon is when someone might be trying to break down my door. :D

As for the optics, mine isn't strictly HD. It rides to work and back in my Jeep, and I use it occasionally in matches. Plus, it is a see-through mount and I have a hi-viz bead on the barrel.