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Duxman
August 16, 2005, 09:17 AM
Need some sage advice. I am a relatively new shooter to competition shooting: This is my second tournament (IPSC), and 1 3 gun under my belt. I am at a point where I would like to reach the upper 50% tier of shooters and improve my general shooting ability.

First things first: Equipment improvement guide part 1:

Guns: Which weapon would you consider to be the best production weapon for IPSC - or are all of them equal? (Since all production is scored the same - minor caliber 9mm seems to be best - accuracy and controllability wise, and 10 round mags are the cutoff)

Please choose a weapon and tell me why:

HSMITH
August 16, 2005, 05:19 PM
I think I would get a Glock. Magazines are cheap and of very good quality, the gun runs great right out of the box, they are accurate enough, and aftermarket sights and things like that are readily available and reasonably priced. I would set it up with Dawson fiber optic sight in the front and a quality steel adjustable rear, extended mag release, some grip tape, straight drop Kydex holster, and GO!!

I really like the CZ-75 too. A Para P18 LDA would also be a nice gun.

What are you shooting now?

ampleworks
August 16, 2005, 08:43 PM
Browning Hi-Power is single action, its limited or higher, not production.

Note, you mention "IPSC" and "Production", I assume you're actually talking about USPSA since IPSC doesn't have Production.

eerw
August 17, 2005, 12:26 AM
Actually IPSC does have a production division..the rules are little different and the difference between it and USPSA production would make a difference in some particular gun choices..

For USPSA production..since mag capacity is limited to 10...that eliminates one of the prime factors..capacity..

since it all is scored minor..that eliminates another factor..power..

one of the choice to make is caliber..some folks like shooting a downloaded .40..they say shooting the heavier 155-180 gr bullet at a 125-130 power factor is way soft..the price of brass is cheap too..but you gotta reload..
9mm..lots of cheap ammo sources..both over the counter..and brass is cheap if you reload..

ok assuming we pick 9mm:
now the guns...each has strong points and weak points..this will depend on you...

The Glock is popular and reliable..the G34 offers a long sight radius which is a good thing. it is easy to get a great trigger, either do it yourself or have someone do it..I had Charlie Vanek do a trigger on my G34 to 1.5#. Add a set of Dawson adjustable rear and F/O front..and it is a great package. downside..it has the narrowest mag to magwell opening..really have to look your reloads in. also fo some it has a funky grip angle, so pointability can be an issue.

SIG226ST..great sights, points well, easy to get a really trick trigger. Its a really heavy gun. I have friend that shoots for Team SIG and he is doing really well..having switched from his Para P18LDA.

Para P18LDA..its a 1911..so point well..good sights, trigger is pretty nice, but the reset is super long..you realy got to get your finger off. Also fat mags to narrow magwell.

CZ75/85..this can be set up to be pretty trick..the action needs some work out of the box, but can be made really nice..good sights are available, it points well. I have an CZ75 and a SP01 that have had really nice action jobs and had good sights put on them..so far really reliable and accurate with both handloads and factory ammo. the gun points really well, mags slip in on the reloads and the trigger reach is short enough that my little fingers fit just right.

Beretta 92..gun points well..pretty much the same as the others..can be set up to shoot well..really like the Elite2 version..the DA pull for me is really long and hard to get my short fingers on it.

Smith 5906 and the 5906PC..this is a cool looking gun..I have heard lots about it..but have yet to see or shoot one..Heard the action on these can be made really sweet.

Tanfoglio Sport Production..new kid on the block..only seen the photos..looks like good sights, big magwell, etc.

Springfield XD tactical..can be set up with really awesome triggers and sights. consistent trigger pull like the glock. easy to reload.

that would be my list of guns to look at for shooting USPSA production.
each is pretty well proven to be reliable, accurate and proven capable of winning.

ampleworks
August 17, 2005, 08:15 AM
I find it a bit funny to see the G34/G35 not on the IPSC Production list but the XD is just listed simply as "XD".

I found the XD easier to reload than Glocks, hence why I bought it. The 4" or 5" model is basically the same, a little more sight radius but I don't think it helps much. Both models have the same accuracy, the extra inch doesn't help anything, at least in the XD.

eerw
August 17, 2005, 08:40 AM
IPSC has some different rules..
they allow full cap mags..
they really restrict trigger pull weight and the mods to OEM parts..like sights, barrel replacement and mag springs..

Think the G34/35 is not allowed for its length.

hey nice videos on the Area 5 website..pretty cool to watch

The things I looked at when picking my gun was how I reached the trigger, ease of the reload and if I could see the sights..for the time being..I am trying the CZ SP01..really like it..trigger is nice. gun points really well. weight is well balanced. etc..

kend
August 17, 2005, 09:44 PM
I've been shooting a PC5906 in Production for the last couple of months and I can't think of any gun that would do a better job at it, it certainly will outshoot me. I thought the 4" barrel would be a disadvantage compared to the 34 I was shooting but it seems to handle better and the steel frame helps absorb the recoil. Accuracy is right up there, 30 yard shots in the A zone at the GA match this past weekend were no problem....for the gun :) You may have some difficulty finding one as they are supposed to be LE only, they also run $1000+ but I did see one on one of the gun boards for $850 recently. Two other local shooters bought them after trying mine and they're hooked.

eerw
August 17, 2005, 10:18 PM
Kend..
you have any photos of your gun..sounds pretty cool..what was the factors that led you to switch away from your G34..

Duxman
August 18, 2005, 02:32 PM
Shooting a Beretta 92 right now, and got my butt kicked last week. Ended up second to the last place. Thinking about the XD heavily. But open to other thoughts as well. :p

kend
August 18, 2005, 08:22 PM
I don't have any pics, I'll look into getting one tomorrow. I had a friend that was a sales rep for S&W and after winning a couple of big matches he talked me into trying a Smith which was a 952, I was hooked after that. After shooting the 952 for a while I went to a 945 for CDP & Limited 10, it's the best 45 ever built. My last match with the 945 was the '05 SC IDPA match and then I started with the 5906. I kept the 34 to use in 3 gun along with my Olympic 9mm AR because they use the same mags but I've enjoyed the 5906 so much I'm going to sell the 34 next week and just stick with the 5906.

kend
August 19, 2005, 09:34 PM
Anybody tell me how to post a picture?

eerw
August 20, 2005, 02:10 AM
two ways

host it on another site and then use the image tags..
or when you post here, click on the manage attachments and upload it.

kymasabe
August 21, 2005, 07:02 PM
Why isn't my Taurus 24/7 Long Slide listed in there? Just kidding. I'd pick a CZ or a Glock anyday. Both make great guns that work beautifully in IPSC

eerw
August 22, 2005, 12:46 AM
the Taurus 24/7 longslide looks pretty cool..how is the trigger?? how does it handle??

WESHOOT2
August 28, 2005, 08:31 AM
It's the trigger, man (still killin' meself).

Only Division I don't compete in.......did I mention I just won a M17?

HSMITH
August 28, 2005, 05:29 PM
Tim, if you want to hock that G17 cheap let me know. Production and Open guns are all I am lacking.......

WESHOOT2
August 31, 2005, 05:21 AM
First I'm gonna try the new-to-me latest gen M17 to see if I 'like' it (you know, plastic-feeling, weird-pointing, 2x4-gripping).
Then (when, er, if I don't 'like' it) I'll let my wife try it (trying to move her away from Revolver-only).
If she wants it it's hers.

Next down is my oldest girl; same thing.

Then I gotta friend who wants to trade me even for a barely-fired Kimber 1911 22LR.
And then I got five guys at work who wanna buy it.

I'm freaked; it's just a Glock......

Trini
September 3, 2005, 09:25 AM
Glock 34. Have been shooting Production of and off for a year and was using a 5926. Picked up a 34 a few months back. The trigger is great, just put on a fiber front sight.

T

Torontogunguy
August 26, 2008, 04:45 AM
I have them all. Glock 34, 35, XD, Para P1640, et.

My observations? The Glocks give me a great deal of trouble with the magazine release; the Para not so bad. I am wondering if the XD has an ambidextrous or switchable mag release? I gotta pull it out and take a closer look as I have not shot it much if at all.

My issue is that I have to change my grip when I go for the magazine release with my thumb. No problem with I go for it with my finger and that occupies my trigger finger as well so that I don't get nicked for trigger finger too close to the trigger guard. In production I believe that we can add anything we want to the gun as long as it is factory optional.... so an extended or ambi mag release is fine?

The Glocks shoot well. The Para shoots a lot better. No experience with the XD's yet. Just did our IPSC Black Badge course here in Ontario... started with a Glock 35 and switched to the Para on the way to the range TODAY. Real culture shock going from a gun with NO safety to a gun with a true thumb safety. Takes some getting used to especially when doing a magazine change hot. Forget that safety and you get nicked.

Glocks are good enough for close in work but for the longer stuff the Para beats the Glock hands down and I am sure it is because of the sights and the weight. I was all over the place with the Glocks. The Para's were mostly in the A's except for the odd 'flyer'. If I can get the mag release issue sorted out to my satisfaction I will go with the Para until ready to move up in a few months.

Now practicing the rack, tap and fire recovery as I have a habit of having the magazines only half lock into place, especially with the Glocks. I have taken to loading only 9 rounds as the tenth round in a ten round mag seems to keep the magazine from locking right.

Regards to all.

kraigwy
August 26, 2008, 09:36 AM
Anybody tell me how to post a picture?

This works for me in all forum sites

"www.whatever.com"

Leave out the quotation marks and put the link to your picture where I typed the www.whatever thingie


Now a question about pistols, I looked at their guns listed in Production Guns. I didnt see the Colt Seires 1911s, seems like a USGI 1911a1 or Colt seres 70 would be a production gun if they were unmodified.

Did I miss something?

OnTheFly
August 26, 2008, 10:11 AM
kend,

If you need a further explanation of posting pics, look at Sticky: Posting Pictures (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292842).

Fly

sargenv
August 26, 2008, 11:10 AM
I'm partial to a S&W 627 myself.. :D

But then I was always a little different... With the new USPSA production rules, you no longer need mount your moon clips behind and around the side.. You can now wear them the same way as you would in Revolver division. All you need is a "carry" type holster for it. Bladetech or something similar works. Though you do have to keep the hammer spur you can still do internal modifications.. I don't think I'll have any trouble keeping the trigger pull to about 6 pounds..

redhart
August 26, 2008, 02:37 PM
Cant help you, I shoot a stock Springfield Loaded, in the single stack div.. Mainly because it is close to my carry gun a V 10 ultra compact .

lmccrock
August 26, 2008, 05:24 PM
kraigwy,

USPSA Production is not a single action division. So, no 1911 is included. Some Para-Ordnance models are included, but those are double action models. A 1911 can shoot competitively in Limited 10 and Single Stack. It also fits into Limited or Open, just not competitively in the high cap divisions.

USPSA Production Gun List (http://www.uspsa.org/rules/production_list.php)

By the way, I voted "Glock 17". Mine could use some trigger work, but it is currently factory stock.

Lee

Torontogunguy
August 26, 2008, 05:44 PM
I love the Glocks; I have a 35 and my son uses a 34 9mm. and loves it. We also have two Para P1640 Limited SS pistols with ambi safeties and adj target sights. Wow. I shot all A's last night with the Para but lost all my points due to extreme difficulty with mag changes. My problem is technique and my technique is based on using my left thumb strong hand to release the mag while I am pulling the fresh mag with my weak hand and whacking it into place. On the Glocks this is a BIG BIG problem for me. On the Para's not so big a problem but still a problem. I just don't have the strength in that thumb due to arthritis. It is weak. My son has NO trouble at all. I need to either make the MAG release ambidextrous, switch it to my trigger finger side of the gun or reduce the pressure needed. Someone suggested bending the Glock mag retention spring to reduce the pressure needed while adding an extension (if I don't already have one on the G35). Ditto the Para P1640. It has to be OEM parts though to remain in my category. I have a Springfield XD and I have NO trouble releasing the magazines from it. I think my Sig is the same. I am tempted. Terribly tempted to head over to the local gun shop and try the latest XD-M's and also the latest Sig X5 (?) That sig is a competition gun and is big bucks but heck... it's only money and I will sell off the others to cover much of the cost. I just need to find the right guns to play IPSC with. Frustrated.

Bob Hostetter
September 2, 2008, 04:11 PM
My choice would, be, and is, the XD. Take you pick, either the standard model or the "M" modelhttp://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h198/BobHostetter/100_0755-1.jpghttp://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h198/BobHostetter/100_1222.jpg

OnTheFly
September 2, 2008, 08:36 PM
Bob Hostetter,

I see you put something over the grips of the XD(M). What is that and why? Were the grip serrations too exaggerated to be comfortable?

Fly

Bob Hostetter
September 3, 2008, 05:48 PM
Actually the stock grips weren't aggressive enough. The material I covered them with is commonly called 'Skate Board Tape" and is kind of like sandpaper, very coarse grit sand paper.

If you take a look at the tactical 9mm XD you will notice the grip has been sanded down and recontoured, stippled and then resealed with exopy.

Same basic thing, just a different way of getting to the same place. I like a very aggressive surface on the grips of my pistols.

vetts1911
September 8, 2008, 10:41 PM
I like the M&P 9 for SSP and Production. I was a Glock 34 shooter for a long time. I think the longslide model will be my next production gun for a few years.

rhgunguy
September 12, 2008, 12:50 AM
First off, the BHP is not legal in production since it is SA. Personaly I love my CZ-75 for production. Sometimes for fun i bring it out and shoot it just for giggles to compare scores with my G35.

Dux, honestly some of the best "advice" I ever got about this sport is, "It takes a long time to get bad". Don't feel bad about second to last. I zeroed my first classifier because my CZ held 15 rounds and I saw no reason to reload six shots through a stage :). Learn ALL the rules, talk to good shooters(you will know soon enough who they are) and HAVE FUN.

One final thing, if you want a certain gun-for whatever reason-buy it. If you do not, you will end up buying a bunch of cheaper guns that are just a little better than the last. My evolution was CZ-75, SA XD-40 Tac, Para 14.45 Limited, Glock 35, STI Open.

However, I do not always follow my own advice. Granted, I like to shoot Limited, and I realy wanted an STI Limited gun, I bought the open, because I knew eventualy I would want the open gun. For once I was right!

Torontogunguy
September 12, 2008, 10:39 AM
Well, flip. flip. flip. flop.

North of the 49th. IPSC shooters with Glock 34/s and 35's will find that they are not on the production list of approved guns; hence they become "standard' class guns. Phooooey. If I am shooting standard class, my Para P1640 is also standard class as it is a 1911 style. So, short answer to first part of my response is that I much much much prefer the Para P1640. I love it. Almost two thousand rounds through it. Dead accurate. Great to shoot. Not a single malfunction and the trigger is spot on for me right from the box. I just bought a second one for my 15 year old son who is also an IPSC shooter and we both shot our qualifier match last weekend without shooting ourselves in the foot. He used his 9mm Glock 34 Standard Division and I used my Para P1640 Standard Division. I want to get away from the Glock (for his sake) as I am leary of a gun without a 'real' safety or decocker (although with a decocker I've seen some with a 12 pound initial trigger pull). I am babbling.

For PRODUCTION division there are a ton to choose from and they are all on a nice neat list.... we have several and I am going to play with them all. Sig 226, Walther P99. Lots in 9mm and .40 for major class... And now I have seen a gun that I simply must have. Twice in fact. At the range I saw a fellow setting up the sights on his CZ SP01 SHADOW. Second target to verify the sights. He punched out the ten ring. One big hole. I have spoken to three fellow IPSC shooters who have been in the sport for some time, two are instructors. They both shoot the CZ Shadow for production in 9mm. And there go I and son Andrew.

So now we are set up for Standard Division, Production Division and then we have an eye on all of those lovely OPEN division guns, the STI's and SVI's and so on. With lovely red dot scope sights. Adjustable triggers. Or trigger jobs. (Had one guy nicknamed "Machine Gun Kelly" at our last match as his trigger job was a little TOO smooth. DQ of course. And then there is revolver division, for which we are already set up as well with S&W 686 from the custom shop with Witchita front sights and the whole nine yards.

Now... the question is... how the heck does one choose what category to shoot in? Truth is they are all attractive for various reasons. Not only that but we saw an IDPA match two weeks ago and I loved the looks of that too! Different holster is all we need as the Ghost holsters are not permitted. But I believe that any one of the firearms that we are using is okay for IDPA.

Our next investment is in the CZ SP01 Shadow. Two of them of course. And a kit of wee spare parts and springs and things. Will report back once we have played for a while but from what I see, even though they are made overseas, they are an outstanding PRODUCTION gun. 9mm is cheap ammo too.

The more experienced I get the more I realize I don't have a clue. We are going to start clearing out the gunsafe to make room. Lots of Kimbers and so on that we just don't use any more. Lots of guns that are as new. Now I understand why I am being told to take my time choosing what I want to use. Trouble is we are having too much fun.

P.S. Anyone living north of the 49th. should be getting out to vote.... we have candidates up here who have openly called for a total handgun ban in Canada and a ban on ALL semiautomatic rifles should they be given a majority government to do so. We need to give our present government a majority so they can do away with the gun registry, etc. Get out to vote and take a friend or two. It makes a difference in the land of "sheeple". We are seriously thinking in terms of moving back stateside (I am a dualie) if they make a grab for our handguns. And heaven help us if BO is elected stateside. Kiss the Bill of Rights goodbye.

.40S&W4me
September 22, 2008, 05:39 PM
I like the .40S&W coming out of a Springfield XDM. I like this platform for several reasons. It's easy to shoot, I can shoot several division in both USPSA and IDPA as wellas steel challenge. The aftermarkert parts haven't caught up up yet but thats ok. I am shooting an XD right now and love it. I have changed several things on it so that I can be competitive. I have a magwell from www.pistolgear.com and the other mods came from www.tacttec.com. The XD is in .40, I download for production and IDPA.

WESHOOT2
September 23, 2008, 10:58 AM
I shoot what I carry (except the 22s).
I don't care about maximizing the guns to the Division; I just shoot.
I win, regardless (okay, not in the Scoring portion, but definitely in the "I'm better than most bad guys" portion), especially in the "I'm having a riotous good time" section of competing.

A33102

Torontogunguy
September 23, 2008, 08:38 PM
We are presently using the Glock 34 and 35; not production guns though... they are 'standard' division... and that's okay cuz they work well, are very reliable and have no safety to fiddle with. Also have two Para P1640's that we like a lot. Mostly I use them although I expect my 15 year old son to start using the other one as soon as he sees it. We are going to load 'light' 40's for it.... heavy enough to cycle it well though. Now am looking at the XDm's for production. Torn between 9mm and 40S&W. Whichever way we go it is going to be two of those as well. One of each of us. Time to start clearing the safe out and am going to start that next month when I am finished the course I am on and have some more spare time. Am also going to thin out the rifle herd... we have too many and seem to be moving up gradually to what we really want. So we are going to thin out the bottom end (We have a ton of .22's) and figure out what to do with all of the coach guns, lever actions, etc that we had intended to use for cowboy shooting, etc. And the trap guns. And the mini 14. I'd like to be able to figure out exactly what it is that we want and are going to use.... and having said that, was at a friend's the other day and he actually turned his cold cellar into a gun vault with a steel door.

So, our next investment, for the record, is going to be a couple of Springfield XDM's, probably in 40. They may not be the best but they are reasonable and they're on the list. If I win the lottery I am going for Tanfoglios I think.

paradigm
May 11, 2013, 06:11 PM
Hi all. I just got done with about two hours of research on this topic. For what it's worth, here are my findings.

IPSC Production:

Glock long slide models (34, ect) are too long for production.
Big difference here is that they distinguish between major and minor. Therefore, you can shoot a 9mm in IPSC production, but you'll be handicapping yourself. .40s rule here. Popular handguns include CZ SP-01 and Tanfoglio production models, and Glock .40s.

IDPA Production:

No distinction between major and minor, so 9mm rules here. You can shoot a .40, but it will be a handicap to yourself.
Popular guns are Glock 34s and CZ SP-01s

Hunter Customs
May 12, 2013, 08:38 AM
I voted for the CZ, I like the feel of the steel guns.
I shot some USPSA production division using a Para LDA 18.9, did quite well with it.
The Para would be my first choice.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

RickB
May 14, 2013, 11:37 AM
Guys I know who are "1911 guys", among whom I count myself, like the feel of the M&P. A fellow traveler became heavily invested in the XD series, with a half-dozen of them among his family members, but they sold all of them and switched to the M&P, due to the trigger tuneability and the familiar feel.

Don P
May 14, 2013, 11:55 AM
You folks do realize that the OP is approaching 8 years old:eek:

RickB
May 14, 2013, 03:12 PM
It looks like the thread gets reopened every three years, so it's due. :D

WESHOOT2
May 15, 2013, 09:08 PM
Since Production Division is limited to specific listed guns, the answer changes.....

sDot
August 7, 2013, 02:41 PM
Just for the sake of it being a great day for zombies threads, I'm about to do my BB in a while and was looking for a gun I can dedicate to it.

Looking at some popular options I see the CZ SP-01 Shadow, or GLock 34/17 as options I would consider. I am not too familiar with the XD's and the fancier guns are out of my price range. I need to figure out quickly though. I guess on the CZ it's the safety and DA that might be something to get used to, otherwise I generally like steel guns.