Stupid kids

[rugerdude]

A friend of mine recently had his car flipped over......yes, he had his car flipped over in the middle of the night. This got me thinking (because my family has had to replace a windshield and a back window because of stupid kids) What amount of force (if any) could you meet someone with if you caught them in the act of vandalizing your car.

I know that deadly force is out, and I wouldn't want to shoot anybody over a broken windshield (well, I did when I realized that someone had beat it in with a bat) Basically, my question is:

Can you respond to an act like this with the threat of deadly force?

As it is now, If I were to catch someone doing this, I would grab my mossy 500 and get them to stop, I guess and call the police. I don't even have any ammunition for the thing.

Thanks,
rugerdude

[Bravo25]

Depends on where you are at, and if you are in the car at the same time. Some states your vehicle is an extension of your home, and if you happen to be in it...well then. But in the situation you describe about all you can do is get a description, and call the police. If you stand on your porch, and rack the slide loud enough for it to be heard ( nothing gets attention like the sound of a rack of a 12 gauge) You would be well within your rights. If you leave the porch you would probably be looking at brandishing a firearm charge.

I am not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV so this is not legal advice, only a suggestion from real life experience.

[XavierBreath]

Here's my take on it, remember I am not a lawyer.

If you grab that shotgun and rack the slide, you have responded with deadly force whether you have ammo or not. The gun itself constitutes deadly force, not it's loaded condition.

Here in Louisiana, the car is considered an extension of one's home. That means nothing in your scenerio. You cannot protect the structure of your home with deadly force. Someone can be lighting fire on your thatch roof and you cannot shoot them. You can protect your life within your home, or the lives of other people within your home. Any invader is considered hostile. The extension to the vehicle basically covers the carrying of a gun. You can carry a gun in any manner you please, loaded, unloaded, in the glove box, under a newspaper, or on the dashboard. To carry it concealed on your person in a car you need a CCW permit.

Now, what can you do? If you have a video camera, tape the incident. Get good footage. Get license numbers of any cars in the area. Get witnesses. Call the police. Let them do their job. Do not interfere. Take the vandals to court. Collect your damages, as well as your punitive damages, and buy a better car.

I'd like to just be able to resort to lethal force too. Stack'em up like cordwood and charge for storage. The law frowns on that though.

[rugerdude]

This makes me sad....What about using a paintball gun or a BB gun?

Or running outside with a bat?

[Bravo25]

Someone can be lighting fire on your thatch roof and you cannot shoot them.
If I or my family is inside at the time it is deadly force.
But typically no the use of deadly force to protect property went out when we stopped hanging horse thiefs, and cattle rustlers.

[Bo Hunter]

I'm sure these are the same types of kids you are talking about, so if they do things like this, you think an empty mossburg will scare them?

Stupid Kids Continued....CLICK! (http://media3.big-boys.com/content/kickyourass.wmv)

[Wraith]

If these kids could be legally shot, they should be. I think knowing that they are risking their lives just to get a few cheap thrills would be enough of a deterrent.

As for me, If I hear someone bashing in my windshield, I will be responding with shotgun in hand. The fact that they have a baseball bat and are threatening my life should hopefully be enough.

[Eghad]

Need to check the state law... In Texas the threat of deadly force is considered deadly force.

The best revenge would be to catch the idiots on camera doing it...In some states the parents could be held finicially libale for Jr.'s actions. get em on fil call 911 and have them arrested. Take em to small claims court if the loss meets the min/max amounts. The parents are not going to like getting hit in the pocketbook :D

I had a friend who lost some luggage due to airline negligence..they wouldnt give him any satisfaction. I told him to take em to small claims court. They had an office here in Texas. he paid his fees the court sent a summons...lol
The airline called and asked if he was serious..he said yup. So they either had to show up or face a default judjement..lol. he got everything he asked for plus more.

[rugerdude]

I do have a videocamera, but it's old and crappy. it may be enough for a liscense plate, but probably not a face in the dark (it is older than I am!)

Is a bat/paintballgun/pelletgun deadly force? I know that they each have the capability to kill, but so does a spoon.

[CabinJohn]

As usual, XB nails it. Pretty much the same here in Massachusetts, regarding use of deadly force to protect property - can't do it.

[mete]

In NY to physically or verbally threaten with a gun is called reckless endangerment.

[Trip20]

People who light your home on fire, while your inside, get charged with attempted murder, OR - murder if, God forbid, they succeed. My best friends parents just dealt with their neighbor's delinquent son who attempted to set their home on fire. He was charged with 5 counts of attempted murder among other things.

You can shoot them. But chasing them off is probably going to make your life a lot less complicated.

I'm not getting in a gun fight over my car - again I'd attempt to chase them off, and THEN if they threaten me with deadly force - I'll consider protecting myself on that level.

Property is replacable. Freedom is not. You don't like idiots like this touching your car... now imagine being penned up in a prison with them for a few years... not my idea of a good time.

[Skeetin'870]

Yeah this is pretty sad but we could tie them up after we tackle them all. Granted the car in question was old and ghetto, IT was still somebodies PERSONAL property. Now if you wanted to go to a junk yard where they crush cars and flip one over fine. But dont do it in somebodies front yard. I would tackle them tie them up and call the police but i wold make sure that you had video evidence or a witness, Parent neighbor passer by. Whoever but get them. We will get them if they come back.

[Sturmgewehr-58]

As it is now, If I were to catch someone doing this, I would grab my mossy 500 and get them to stop, I guess and call the police. I don't even have any ammunition for the thing.

Bad idea. Don't present a gun unless you plan on using it. You will feel foolish when these "stupid kids" crush your skull with your unloaded shotgun.

[Bo Hunter]

Someone can be lighting fire on your thatch roof and you cannot shoot them.

Actually - in NY state you can use deadly force against someone commiting arson, among several other violations....

From NYS Penal Law:

S 35.20 Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises and
in defense of a person in the course of burglary.
1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises. He may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and he may use deadly physical force if he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson.

A couple of notes on videoing. Don't end up with a sasquatch video. Don't worry about WATCHING what is happening. Worry about VIDEOING what is happening. Take care using zoom and focus and HOLD THE CAMERA STILL! You can watch the events later when you review the tape. Your job is to film, not to observe...

[Bravo25]

I still don't think that the standing on the front porch, and racking the slide, in itself is deadly force. I would not point the weapon at anyone, I would only be making my presence known, and insuring that the violent activity doesn't come to my door. I would conceed that stepping of from the porch, or pointing the weapon at one of the kids would constitute a DF threat.

We had a recent case here where a guy shot at someone breaking into his truck, and he was found innocent because inside the truck was a garage door opener that allowed access to his house.

[XavierBreath]

:o Yes, I should have known better, I was looking for the inflammatory statement, not the facts (pun intended, ;) )....... Arson is different from turning over a car because the fire can spread rapidly and endanger the lives of people who are not even in the same building, as well as the firefighters who respond. Arson is often classed as attempted murder if the building is inhabited.

I am not sure what the law is on shooting arsonists in Louisiana. For me, if I arrived home with my family, and a kid was setting fire to my home (which I knew to be empty because my family was with me) I would not use lethal force. If he got away as a result, I still have my family, and they still have me. If a member of my family were in the house, that's another story. If I have to use lethal force to stop the spread of the fire, then so be it. My first actions will be to save people from the flames, not kill the flame starter though. Next, extinquish the fire if possible. That would be my take on it, regardless of what the law allowed. On a side note, I wonder if this allowance in the law is there to provide protection from crosses being burned in yards...... Something to ponder, I'd like to know the history on this one!

I still don't think that the standing on the front porch, and racking the slide, in itself is deadly force. I think this will have a lot to do with the political climate in your area. Remember people are convicted of armed robbery and assault with deadly weapons when they have BB guns and toy guns.

[Bo Hunter]

XB - Wasn't being smart or sarcastic. Only offering the information as I read it.

I personally think the video is the way to go. I saw some infra-red surveyllance cameras on the web recently that were relatively affordable too... They activate the VCR and everything based on motion...

[jcoiii]

What about running out there and removing them via physical force, e.g. pulling them off your car? Yes, I realize this is not tactical, but I'm looking for comments on the "legal" aspect.

[Hans]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not sure about that. Do you really think it's worth it to attempt to fight a bunch of crazy kids probably hopped up on drugs? Most likely, it would lead to someone (probably you) getting hurt.

[rugerdude]

i have a feeling that there was alchahol involved and i wouldn't run out there unarmed.....thus the bat/paintballgun/BB gun legality question

[artsmom]

How do you know that whatever they are holding (or might imagine them holding) is not a deadly weapon that they are about to use on you? I would definitely put the proof of burden on them to give me clear reasons NOT to shoot. You have to be ALIVE to show up in court as either the plaintiff or defendant.

That being said, no property is really worth the price of a human life, but I would certainly use a firearm on their vehicle to prevent them from leaving the scene.

[XDoctor]

I was under the impression that you should not shoot unless you are afraid for your life and cannot escape. So protecting your car is out of the question. Unless its full of some type of touch explosive that may be set off by moving the car. Then you may be justified in shooting the kids to keep them from blowing up your house, the people inside and the surrounding 20 blocks. Just don't miss. ;)

[jcoiii]

As I stated in my post, I know it's not a good idea to go confront these hooligans.

However, in TN you, Joe Citizen, can also arrest them if you so desire. And according to TCA (39-14-408) vandalism is punished under theft definitions (39-14-105). So if your car is worth over $500, it is at least a Class E Felony. So, I guess you'd be okay legally to "arrest" said hooligans. (and for those who still insist on the "I wouldn't do that if I were you"..... yes, I think we all know that.)

[Garand Illusion]

We discussed this at some length in the CCW classes I took, including one with a lawyer ...

He was talking about Colorado, and I thought some of the information was contradictory.

1. You cannot use deadly force to defend property (draw a gun, brandish a gun, threaten with a gun, etc.)
2. You CAN use physical force to defend property (get in some one's way, tackle them, etc.)

Where it gets hard, though ... the lawyer felt that if you were facing a number of people who conceivably could be a threat, it would not be brandishing to draw a weapon and hold it at your side when confronting them; this would simply be taking a reasonable caution when confronting multiple criminals with unknown intent, and under the circumstances not brandishing to the reasonable citizen.

However ... technically if those people laught at you and continue to steal your car (or whatever) at this point there's nothing you can really do besides allow it to happen.

If they all come at you after you confront them, or one displays a weapon (even if he just pretends to have a weapon by reaching under his coat or whatever) ... well, now they've threatened you with deadly force and the situation just changed. Take action to defend yourself as you see fit.

On the other hand ... realistically, if you hold an unarmed BG at gunpoint until the police arrive and he really is a provable criminal, it's highly unlikely (at least in this state) that you'll be criminally prosecuted. The DA's know a jury is unlikely to convict someone who didn't actually shoot anybody, but used a legally owned/possess firearm to confront felons. It's technically illegal, but it's not something you'll generally be prosecuted for.

You takes your chances ...

For me, I probably wouldn't be too confrontational defending my property. But would be HIGHLY aggressive at defending my life.

[Hawes45]

of the legal system where you live, you may want to contact
the police and ask them what the limitations are as to you
defending your property, of course they will say to contact them
immediatly as they don't want violence or to have to come
back and arrest you at a later date because "it's the law".

As far as paintball/BB/pellet most states and municipalities
frown their use in anger as much as firearms I know here
in Michigan even the implication fo a weapon is an automatic
2yrs if convicted.

I am no lawyer but have read up a lot on law as it is interesting. :D

[SMMAssociates]

Had a case here in OH (where deadly force seems to be illegal unless the BG already shot you) that's interesting.

A woman was receiving threats from a man - ex-husband, I think - stalker issues, late night hangup phone calls, doorbell rings with nobody there, etc.

She was holding her daughter (toddler, I think) when the doorbell rang, and grabbed up a gun as she went to the door.

Turned out to be a Girl Scout (or something like that) selling cookies.

Children's Services took the child ("child endangerment"), and the PD took the gun. Took her too for a while if I remember correctly. "Brandishing"....

I don't recall the outcome, but I think it ended happily eventually.

Anybody else see what's wrong with this picture?

Regards,

[butch50]

As it is now, If I were to catch someone doing this, I would grab my mossy 500 and get them to stop, I guess and call the police. I don't even have any ammunition for the thing.

Bad idea. If you show a gun it better be loaded, because one of the "kids" might be armed with a loaded gun, and not knowing yours isn't, start shooting at you. Then what do you do? Yell out "Just Kidding!"

If you are going to show a weapon, it should be loaded and you should be ready able and willing to use it, otherwise don't show it or you may escalate into something you can not respond to.

You should check out your State laws, you have been given a lot of conflicting and contradictory advice and each State has different laws arrived at in a different manner. You could start at www.packing.org. That website has a laymans rundown on firearms laws for each State and if it doesn't answer your question will probably point you in the right direction to look further.

[rugerdude]

Well, thanks for the info and advice. Thankfully I doubt anything more will become of this, and the damage to my friend's car was almost nothing (he lost a mirror, not a big deal, but I thought it was much worse.) We may know who did it, but we don't have proof and once again, they really didn't hurt much so I guess we will just have our laughs about it unless this continues (which I doubt it will).

Thanks,
rugerdude

[Trip20]

A friend of mine recently had his car flipped over......yes, he had his car flipped over in the middle of the night.
and the damage to my friend's car was almost nothing (he lost a mirror, not a big deal, but I thought it was much worse.)
Please let us know where your friend had his aftermarket armored auto body and armored paint installed. :rolleyes:

[rugerdude]

Well, the thing does not wigh that much. He had 2 baseball sized dents in the right door and he lost a mirror. They flipped it into his yard so the grass didn't exactly grind the paint off.

[xnavy]

If memory serves me correct, in texas this type of behavior at night is considered criminal mischief. I would have to check to see what the law allows when dealing with criminal mischief, but I think texas allows some sort of response when dealing with thugs at night on your property. I know there is a section dealing with criminal mischief but I just can't remember what it says.

[JohnKSa]

TX offers more latitude than most states in dealing with criminal mischief during the nighttime.

In TX, a property owner could shoot someone who was preparing to flip his car over if he:

"reasonably believes that force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's ... unlawful interference with the property AND reasonably believes ... deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's imminent commission of ... criminal mischief during the nighttime AND he reasonably believes that ... the ... property cannot be protected ... by any other means OR the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the (property owner) or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury."

Carefully note the use of "force" and "deadly force" in the paragraph. They are NOT the same thing.

Basically, you must be convinced that force is necessary to stop the crime. You could probably convince yourself of this by shouting at them to stop and telling them that the police are coming. THEN you must be convinced that any force other than deadly force would be useless, OR that any force other than deadly force would expose you to substantial risk of serious bodily injury or death. That gets trickier.

[mrcalm7]

I still can't get over the fact that you were going to rack a gun for which you have no ammo? :eek: That's wild. You'd be better off pulling out an axe and screaming like a Banchee, sprinting towards them. That would probably disperse them. Sure, you wouldn't get but five or six, but who the hell is going to stick around with an axe murderer running at them?

[rugerdude]

"I still can't get over the fact that you were going to rack a gun for which you have no ammo? That's wild."

The idea was that these are just some stupid vandals and not hardened criminals, the shotguns presence and sound would be to ensure that they don't return, not to cause harm. This thread was started because i did not know if that was legal or not, I know (or at least have reason to believe) that it is not legal, and therfore I don't intend to do it, but thankfully I don't think I will have to.

I don't know about you, but (if i were said vandals) i'm not going to escalate a minor vandalism charge (from which i could easily escape) to murder.

[pt111gr]

You have to be very careful when dealing with something like this. It doesn't really matter what is "technically" legal to do. How many times do police officers illegally search a car? Thousands of times everyday across the country. How many times do people get convicted of crimes even though they are legal by a technicality. The main point is, if you rely on a technicality to save your butt in court you're taking a big gamble. The only time it's smart to use deadly force is if you're about to be attacked by someone who you can prove was going to cause you serious harm or death, or better yet shooting someone that is invading your house.

[3 weelin geezer]

I still believe that jails are nothing more than a sanctuary that house people away from angry law abiders who know the law is meant to protect the unlawful (you cant shoot them because......) until we 'forget' what they did and they can walk the streets again in safety so that they don't end up being famous on the 6 oclock news mysteriously ending up sleeping with the fish or becoming someones hood ornament or suffering an unexplicable gunshot from some neiborhood a mile away or.....

[mrcalm7]

The idea was that these are just some stupid vandals and not hardened criminals, the shotguns presence and sound would be to ensure that they don't return, not to cause harm.

Did dialing 911 ever enter into your thinking? You weren't in danger, so then you need to call LE to take charge. That's what they get paid to do.

[rugerdude]

Because by the time they get there, all they can do is take a report, the vandals won't even hear the sirens 'cause they will be gone. At that point I am wasting the officer's time. They aren't going to hunt for clues and find out who did it.

[CarbineCaleb]

I think a lot of this depends on the police, judge, jury... I knew a guy in Jersey who heard some noise out front - two guys were trying to steal his Harley, and were pushing it up a ramp into their pickup truck. Being a biker, he didn't take that lightly, and ran out front with a baseball bat and put them both in the hospital. He was the nicest guy, but you shouldn't be on the wrong side of him. I didn't ask him for all details, but I know he didn't go to jail and am not even sure if he was charged with a crime.

[X-RAY]

It's amazing how much variance there is re: use of deadly physical force from state to state. Article 35 N.Y. State Penal Code "Defense of Justification" states that you can legally use deadly physical force IN YOUR HOME when you REASONABLY believe it is necessary to prevent or stop a burglary,arson,or other violent crime.
Turning over a car with no occupants is vandalism at best.

[JohnKSa]

Just posting the info for reference. It's not likely you'd find anyone with legal experience recommending that you pop someone to prevent vandalism--not even in TX.

There's even one school of thought that says if an item is insured, that it is already "protected by other means" which would remove the legal justification for use of deadly force.

What it really comes down to in TX is that you have the right to go out, armed, and tell them to stop, knowing full well that if they attack, you have every right to shoot. In essence the law gives you the right to initiate a confrontation to protect your property while still preserving the right to self-defense should the need arise.

In many areas, if you initiate the confrontation, your right to self-defense may be compromised.

[butch50]

don't know about you, but (if i were said vandals) i'm not going to escalate a minor vandalism charge (from which i could easily escape) to murder.

That is an assumption that could turn out fatal, for you.

[Bravo25]

Did dialing 911 ever enter into your thinking? You weren't in danger, so then you need to call LE to take charge. That's what they get paid to do.

Which planet was that again? The SCOTUS has already ruled the LEO community is not responsible, or liable for the protection of you, your family, or your property. What part of that isn't getting through?

[JuniorCommando]

Break out a can of the hottest mace on the market for those little punks. No need to get yourself into all the legal tangles if you can avoid it. Plus its easier to sue someone if they are still alive :P

and/or

1) One hand on the cell one hand on your holstered gun. Don't brandish it.
2) If your cellphone has a picture option use it. Then dial 911 right in front of his face and report that mofo if he tries to rush you light him up. Make sure you sound scared for your life, tell the operator something along the lines that this guy is going berserk. If the guy suddenly takes his attention away from your property onto you, yell "get away from me or I'll shoot" on the phone. I think at this point you got all the legal evidence you need to cap this fool.

Happy hunting.

[ATW525]

I'm no lawyer, but the way I understand NH law is that physical force, but not deadly force may be used to protect property. However, if your car was parked in your driveway, you reasonably believed they were trying to commit felony criminal mischief and you reasonably believed they were likely to use unlawful force against you in the commission of that felony, then deadly force may be used.

[3 weelin geezer]

artsmom
Senior Member



That being said, no property is really worth the price of a human life

_________________________________

Then why do they have armed guards at the us mint?

[Bravo25]

That being said, no property is really worth the price of a human life

Well there it is... That is exactly the concept the criminals need to grasp, not the position that should be forced upon the people. The fact that we have adopted this type of philosophy, and given over to the criminals in the first place is the very reason the problem continues to worsen.

Ever hear of what used to happen to cattle rustlers, and horse thiefs? Those crimes were far from rampant because of the consequences.

[longbaugh]

A running chainsaw does wonders for getting people to leave. What? I just wanted to trim this tree real quick before I forgot about it. And I was in such a hurry that I was running and I kinda stumbled and "lundged" at them. Sorry about that arm.