Whats the proper thing to do?

[Soybomb]

I was in downtown St. Louis one afternoon, parked my car, got out, and a man approached me shortly after I fed the parking meter and began to walk away asking for money. I said I just put it all in the meter and he persisted talking relatively incoherently asking if I liked pancakes or something. I started walking away and he kept following me, our paces quickening, even following me across the street. He wasn't within arms reach and was keeping a little distance maybe 10-15 feet but clearly following. A few seconds later a group of people came around the corner and he veered off in a different direction.

I don't know what his intentions were now of course, but it put me on edge since he was clearly following me. How would you deal with this where you get the feeling something's up, but haven't been threatened directly yet?

[butch50]

Just exactly like you did, walk away.

[Soybomb]

If the people didn't round the corner and the guy veer off and he starts closing the distance then what?

[oystermick]

Just keep walking. If he actually made physical contact, you'd be justified to respond in kind, but certainly not a unholstering situation. It's situations such as this where pepper spray may well be an important tool.

[joab]

You don't say where you live. In some states physical contact is not necessary to establish imminent danger.

You did right in walking away, if you were not walking to a secluded spot out of view of the public ,not that the public will always help you.
Never ever let them decide where you will walk and always be aware of what and who is ahead of you.

If he closed the distance or caused you to actually fear immediate attack you may have to take an aggressive defensive posture. Pepper spray would work well in that case, I don't think that there is a brandishing law on that

[Soybomb]

Well the only bad thing about waiting for physical contact would be this was a guy that could have wrung me like a wet towel :D

This was in missouri a couple years ago before they allowed concealed carry anyway, but its just something I was thinking about now as a what-if.

[oystermick]

Soybomb, I don't understand your point. Would your preference have been to shoot the guy because you had the feeling something was up? One must learn to accept that it's a big world and everybody in it is not your friend.
My question to you is what would you have done had not the group of people walked around the corner? I'm not flaming you, but you come across as a scared man. Myself, I'm not a particularly large man, but I'd never be wrung like a wet towel. The best advice I can offer you is to keep your world as small as possible.

[joab]

Soybomb
There is no shame in recognizing and admitting your limitations, or in running like hell if the situation calls for it.

[Night Watch]

:rolleyes: I don't know; my first thought would have been to use OC spray on him; but, from what you've said, he WAS minding his manners. Because he was careful to act non-threatening I would have, probably, tossed a couple of bucks at him - if for no other reason than I had errands to run and he knew what I was driving! ;)

[Bravo25]

Just what you did. Walk away until you can't walk away any longer. Then turn face them, and get loud. I mean top of your voice, bulhorn screaming loud. "Stop following me, and leave me alone". You want to draw attention of as many people as you can. If this doesn't work, yell FIRE!. If you are 5' 2", and the BG is 6' 4", and 400 lbs, once he closes to within 7 yards things change. Always try to find the peaceful non violent resolution.
We live in a day and age when unfortunately far to many people ignore cries of help, but nobody ignores a fire!

[Soybomb]

Soybomb, I don't understand your point. Would your preference have been to shoot the guy because you had the feeling something was up? One must learn to accept that it's a big world and everybody in it is not your friend. My question to you is what would you have done had not the group of people walked around the corner? I'm not flaming you, but you come across as a scared man. Myself, I'm not a particularly large man, but I'd never be wrung like a wet towel. The best advice I can offer you is to keep your world as small as possible.
No, I don't even carry actually, I'm just new to the site and trying to see how people react with carrying. Call it scared if you like, personally I think its a decent idea to have some idea of what you want to do if a scenario were to repeat itself somewhat differently. I think its also good to know your limits physically, a physical confrontation with him wouldn't have ended well for me, although that sort of thing seems unlikely anyway in this situation.

Had the group not come around I would have continued as I was, increasing speed to keep him from closing the gap. If he produced a gun I would have probably tossed my wallet and took off hoping he'd go for it. He may have just been a random nut case too and thats all there was to it. Its more of a what-if thing.

I was actually more curious how those that do carry would respond to something like this. At what point do you feel threatened enough to get a grip or draw without seeing that the other person is armed? Ever? Wait until they're on top of you? Never unless you see they're armed? Call it the new guy's curiosity to see how others would have responded I guess. Alot of people talk about how fast someone close distance, so how much do you worry about that?

[butch50]

It is a gray area, and has been discussed before on other threads.

Let me say a few things on it though - First is that fear is the number one survival trait that has kept the human species from becoming extinct. Fear is not something to be ashamed of, it is something to be alert to - if you feel fear then pay attention because your strongest survival instinct is talking to you.

When to pull a gun on an apparently unarmed person is going to boil down to three things - circumstances, circumstances and circumstances. You can't pin down a scenario that someone else can't pull apart, from the safety of their chairs.

But when you get to a point where you are in a situation that causes you to be in fear of grievous bodily harm and/or for your life, then pull.

[Soybomb]

Seems like sound logic butch. I probably shouldn't have even asked until I'd taken a carry course or two next month, but nothing betterto do on a slow afternoon. :D

[butch50]

Ask away, then when you take the carry course you can ask even better questions, and more of them. :D

[mete]

He may have been a bum [nonPC for 'homeless'],criminal, on alcohol, drugs or mentally ill. Any of those can be a danger ! Get away from him quickly .Go toward people in a well lit area.Or at least put a car between you and him.

[Redworm]

I'd like to take the opportunity to suggest martial arts. I haven't spent much time on this forum so I'm not sure what kind of reaction this will get. See, most forums I've been on have a smattering of gun owners. Many of them are great guys and girls, just like anyone else. But occassionally I've come across the gun owners that balk and laugh at any mention of martial arts, using the argument that with their ability to carry firearms it's pointless and useless as a form of self defense.

From what I've seen on this forum, the people here seem to have quite a bit more common sense.

You said the guy could've easily taken you; change that. If you're physically unfit then do something about it and next time you won't be as worried. And unless you've lost the use of three or more limbs, physical disability is rarely an excuse. I've met a 70+ year old great grandmother fully capable of taking down full grown men...my last kung fu sigung was a small man in his late 40s, had suffered two strokes, was bound to a wheelchair the majority of the time, yet still managed to inflict some serious pain on any student of his choosing.

Pepper spray is a great idea and in an absolute worst case scenario you've got your sidearm but that's no reason not to start hitting a gym and getting yourself physically capable of taking down an aggressor. Tack on some useful hand to hand combat training (in other words, avoid pointless money making schemes such as self-teaching videos and books or any type of school teaching so-called "American Karate") and you'll be more confident in situations like these.


The best solution is still, like everyone said, to simply keep walking away. But the confidence you'll get from being in better shape and knowing that you can defend yourself unarmed will keep you calm and allow you to analyze the situation and choose a proper course of action.

[Dwight55]

Meaning no disrespect to redworm and others of the same opinion, but not everyone has the funds, the physical health, the time, and the inclination to involve oneself in martial arts.

I am one of those. I have a bum ticker, a few bad joints, am 60 years old, and have mostly survived this long by the Lord's protection and choosing which fights I would persue, . . . and which ones I would not. I have more than once walked away or run away today, . . . so that I would be here tomorrow.

My usual carry piece is a 1911 that I have never had to pull, and certainly hope that I never will have to. But I absolutely refuse to allow myself to come into close enough proximity to someone 1/2 or 1/3 my age who is hell bent on doing me less than well.

For me, . . . pepper spray is not an option, . . . as well as martial arts. If I can't out hobble the bg, . . . out think him (go into a public building, . . . pull out my cell phone and start dialing 911, . . . get back into my car, . . . etc.) then when he closes the distance that I feel my well being is threatened, . . . he is going to get an up close and personal look at the front end of my 1911 barrel, barrel bushing, front sight, . . . and if his eyesight is good and the light is right, . . . he may even be able to see the 230 grain FMJ sitting in there with his initials on it if he pushes the issue any more.

I have all the intentions of being the most peaceable person on the street, . . . but one of the most important battle rules is if you want to win, . . . you have to get bad enough, quick enough. Bg's win if you don't.

May God bless,
Dwight

[azspyder]

I'd keep walking, but alertly and ready to draw.

[Redworm]

Funds and time are understandable. A less than ideal physical condition is, in my opinion, even more of a reason to consider it. A bad heart, a few bad joints, and six decades won't allow you to take up Wing Tsung or Hung Gar but chen style Taijiquan is not only still an option but specifically suited to those kinds of variables. Many people think of Tai Chi as just wavy movements that people do as low impact excercise but most don't realize that the majority of techniques you learn from it are in fact very useful and very deadly.

The system is partially based on the principle of muscle training. If you learn how to move a certain way very slowly and practice it for years on end, the time can come when that particular motion can move an attackers arm out of the way while at the same time brining the back of your hand into his nose, shattering cartilage and forcing into his sinuses. There are other systems similar (though of course not as popular) that are also specifically tailored for either children, seniors, women, the disabled....hell, there's a system of kung fu, a very effective one by the way, that's designed to give the blind a fighting chance.


Sorry, I'm digressing. My point is that even without the martial arts, if he feels he's physically unable to defend himself then at the very least hitting a local gym or just buying a cheap weight set would do wonders. When you're in shape and know you can at the very least land a hard punch if you need to, it increases confidence which is absolutely essential in the decision making process when in any kind of threatening situation.

But that's just my two cents, I could be wrong. :p

[MeekAndMild]

soybomb you might check your PMs. I sent you a little bit more info than I deem wise to put on a public forum. Good luck.

[XavierBreath]

Doggone it M&M, send us all a PM then! ;)

Seriously, my first consideration is to not turn my back on someone I am unsure is a threat or not. To walk away, you must turn your back or walk backwards, both bad options.

This is really going to depend on where you are at. If you are outside a restaurant, just go inside and tell the proprietor there is a bum panhandling outside. If you are outside any business, do the same. Let them take care of the bum for us all. Business owners don't like bums outside harrassing potential customers, not even in New Orleans. The bum is counting on us to be in to big a hurry to deal with him effectively. He expects us to buy him off with a dollar or ten. Give him the time he deserves, and help the businesses improve their location.

On a side note, the wife and I went to a restaurant in separate cars. When I pulled in the lot and went to her car, a female crackhead had asked her for money. My wife, sweet and caring woman that she is, turned her back on the crackhead, leaned over into her car with her back to the crackhead and went digging in the console for spare change! Needless to say I was furious. I got between her and the crackhead and told her to back off. She started on her "What's it to you" routine, so I took my bumfuzzled wife by the arm, remotely locked her car doors, and backed inside the restaurant, all the time with my hand on the J frame in my pocket and a crackhead screaming. My mother in law was waiting for us there, and both she and my wife thought I was a little nuts, afterall, it was a good neighborhood right? Wrong. It was a business district. I alerted the maitre 'd of what was occuring in his parking lot. He collected a busboy and went outside to take care of his business. I ate on the house that night.

Another option in your situation is to simply return to your car, get inside, start the engine, turn on the AC, and get out your cell phone. Call the police and have the bum picked up. That may take a little while and be an inconvience though.

The most effective way of dealing with this kind of person is to not attract them. Do not make initial eye contact. Look through them. Look at their hands. Train yourself to look at hands. It will help you avoid an armed attack, but more importantly, it gives bums the distinct impression you are a cop. When you leave your car, do a 360 scan as you get out. It gives the same impression. If the bum bothers you anyway, draw him to the nearest business that cares about what happens outside their doors, and let the man in charge know what is going on outside. Be it a hotel, a restaurant, or an automotive parts house, none of them want bums driving off customers.

Karate? I never want an attorney to be able to ask "Why did you not disable my client's son with your karate skills rather than shooting him until he stopped advancing on you?" If I know no karate, then I am not ever going to be asked that question in front of a jury of Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee fans.

[Redworm]

LOL, you're as likely to be asked that in court as you are to be asked why you didn't just give him all your money instead of shooting him

It just makes sense to be able to defend yourself without a weapon if you have to. Not all states and cities allow people to carry. :P Funny line, though.

[XavierBreath]

I, personally, do not see martial arts as a solution, but in fact a problem, both during the incident, and potentially in the aftermath. Martial arts teach you how to joust with others who will do what you expect. It is great discipline, and a healthy activity. My argument against it is that it indoctrinates you on tournament fighting. I see this as dangerous. Tournaments have rules. Street fights do not. It goes back to the fact that in a crisis you fight the way you train. Do you want to fight with rules against an opponent who follows no rules? Just because you have training in martial arts does not mean you are prepared for a streetfight. Likewise, just because you have been in hundreds of streetfights does not mean you are ready for a martial arts tournament. They look similar, but don't fool yourself. As soon as a competitor picks up a brick and beans his opponent in the head with it in a tournament, he is disqualified. Do that in a streetfight, and you just may emerge the winner. In a tournament if two of your opponent's friends jump on the mat and wrestle you down while your opponent kicks you, you emerge the winner by disqualification. On the street you are lucky if you stay concious and alive, not if it happens, but when. Knowing how to prevent it, or when to cut and run is what will save you. Opponents fight one on one. Criminals travel in packs, and operate together.

Rather than begining an argument I will just post a link to this page about the differences between martial arts and street fighting. Peruse the many links to your heart's content. Enjoy. No Nonsense Self Defense (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html).

Redworm, I respect your dedication to martial arts, but don't let your devotion blind you.

[Redworm]

"Martial arts teach you how to joust with others who will do what you expect."

And that's where you make your first mistake. You seem to believe that martial arts originated for the purpose of tournaments. Do the Army and Marine Corps teach tournament fighting skills to recruits during basic training? No, CQC training is based directly on a variety of proven martial arts systems. No true form of martial arts will ever, ever teach you to fight with people who will do what you expect. The whole point of it is to prepare you for as many different situations as possible and let you make the decision as to what technique will serve better.

Your reasoning against tournament style martial arts is exactly why I disagree with a variety of other martial artists that argue the applicability of many of the traditional styles. Most of them will claim that those styles which fail in MMA (mixed martial arts) tournaments will thusly fail in real life and they're painfully wrong. Most of the popular systems have been around for centuries and they have been for a reason; styles and techniques that fail do not get passed along to future generations.

As far as that site goes, I've read it before and it still doesn't fly. He makes some good points but most of them are just assumptions.

First is I (Marc MacYoung) am not a martial artist.

Right then and there should tell you that you should take it with a grain of salt. It's like a guy who's never shot a gun telling you what kind of bullets are best to use in your particular weapon. I don't care how much research goes into it, without practical experience the argument doesn't hold water.

Your mistake is in believing that "martial arts" automatically refers to tournament style "karate". Like I said, the military doesn't prepare its' combatants for tournaments and CQC is a fine example of martial arts. Silat is still one of the most deadly arts in the world and it's almost never practiced in tournaments because nearly every technique is designed to kill or otherwise incapacitate. Sure, Tae Kwon Do (heh Take Yo Dough) is more a sport than anything else but that doesn't mean combat proven systems are ineffective.

Lastly, you're right that there's a difference between combat martial arts and street fighting. Street fighting is untrained, it's largely ineffective, and it relies more on luck and brute strength than anything else. Virtually all forms of martial arts originated from those who'd been through enough street fights that they learned what works and what doesn't. It greatly depends on the person putting it to use but it's hard to claim that it's more of a problem than a solution when many people have been successfully defending themselves against more powerful aggressors for centuries.



I'm sorry for starting such a huge argument on this subject and I certainly understand if people don't agree. I'm merely trying to inform people to the best of my ability. Remember, what you see on Ultimate Fighting Championship is NOT an example of martial arts. ;)


edit: by the way, I don't mean to offend anyone or tread on any opinions, I'm just sharing my own. I've seen macyoung's work and he certainly knows how to fight; despite his own hypocrisy he is in fact a martial artist and on that same token he often does the exact same thing he condems others trying to make a buck off the general public

I'm not into the spiritual aspect of martial arts, never have been. But the same way that shooting benefits from training and technique, so does fighting. Going back to the original point of this thread, I'm not saying the guy should sign up for the first kung fu class he can find to beat the crap out of the next bum that crosses his path.

Just that if he's afraid of being "wrung like a wet towel" a little more confidence and physical fitness certainly wouldn't hurt.

[XavierBreath]

Join Marc's list and discuss the merits of martial arts with people who have studied martial arts for 40 and 50 years. Don't be so quick to discount an opinion. Marc forms his opinion from discussion with these folks and personal experience. Join the list (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/animallist.html)! You will enjoy the discourse!
No need in arguing with a know nothing like me when you can argue with people who have practiced martial arts for half a century!

[Redworm]

I'm not discounting his opinion, just saying that his shouldn't be taken as gospel simply because he's the dissenting voice. Many of the negative aspects he claims other systems have apply to his own as well. He also sells books and videos that people buy thinking they'll learn how to fight.

I appreciate the recommendation and I'll certainly join the list to see what people have to say. I've only been studying martial arts for about a dozen years so I'm sure to learn quite a bit. I'm not discounting his opinions nor the opinions of people who agree with him; I just don't agree with his tendancy to bash a system simply because it has a spiritual aspect to it. Rarely does he challenge the techniques, only the culture.

Martial arts doesn't require a culture to learn the combat, it never has. That's why systems like his as well as silat, krav maga, and military CQC work so well.


sorry for derailing the thread guys :p I really will shut up about it if y'all want me to

[XavierBreath]

by the way, I don't mean to offend anyone or tread on any opinions, I'm just sharing my own. I've seen macyoung's work and he certainly knows how to fight; despite his own hypocrisy he is in fact a martial artist and on that same token he often does the exact same thing he condems others trying to make a buck off the general public Thanks for your quick edit, and you are correct about Marc making a buck in his own way. We will save our debate for another time. ;) This thread has a lot of potential and I don't want to sidetrack it either. I admit I was the one to start the tangent. I apologize. You, Redworm, have not offended anyone. I, XB, potentially did. If I offended you, I am sorry. Welcome to the forum!

I guess what I'm trying to say is a bum following you is not a reason to draw a weapon or make a fist. It is a reason to be wary and seek a way to stop the encounter. It's a case of street smarts, not fighting or shooting ability.

[Soybomb]

I don't think anyone has really suggested drawing or anything like that because you're being followed. The question is really more like how would you react if the situation escalated. Anyway theres been some good advice, thanks everything.

I am somewhat surprised at the number of relatively negative reactions to my "wring like a wet towel" comment. I would think everyone would be capable of making a realistic assesment of any situation like that be it one guy larger and more built than you, or a bunch of guys with guns. Sometimes you're just beat before it begins and I think its advantageous to be able to realistically recognize that.

Karate is a good suggestion of course for anyone, but too many other irons in the fire for a new hobby, I'll take my chances.

Once again, thanks all!

[joab]

Ask the same question of them when they're 40.
That's the age you realize that you aren't as tough as you used to be and probably never were as tough as you thought you were.

Let's say you engage the thug in a fist fight.
And lets say you win.
You get to keep your wallet.
You also get busted knuckles and maybe some other bruises and injuries
You get to fill out a police report.
You get a story to tell your buds

Let's say you beat a cowardly retreat of some sort either running away or ducking into a nearby business and asking for help.
You get to keep your wallet.
You get a less interesting story that you probably won't tell your buds

[butch50]

Let's say you engage the thug in a fist fight.
And lets say you win.
You get to keep your wallet.
You also get busted knuckles and maybe some other bruises and injuries
You get to fill out a police report.
You get a story to tell your buds

You may also get to keep a disease like aids. Don't forget that in serious hand to hand fighting that you are very very likely to swap blood. If you bust him in the mouth and break his lip open at the same time as you cut your knuckle on his teeth and he has aids, you may have a serious problem that far outweighs the consequences of a street scuffle.

There are 101 other likely scenarios for picking up all kinds of transmittable diseases. Martial arts could well lead you into something you wish you didn't have.

[joab]

You may also get to keep a disease like aids. Didn't even think that far into it.

The last serious fight I got into, which incidently was with a martial artist of some sort although not a very good one, I bit his thumb about half off.

I sweated that for awhile

[Edward429451]

Sometimes I toss those homeless guys a few bucks and sometimes not. Depends on the vibes I get from them. I wont support drug habits, nor alchoholism, but if I don't pick up those vibes and he looks hungry, I have no problem helping out a fellow man.

The crackhead types I've yelled at. Both to unnerve them, and draw witness heads around in case they want it to go downhill, their choice.

I'm sure the occassional alchoholic has taken me in for a free bottle...Eh, So what. I think I'd rather buy a few bottles of maddog for those guys than let one deserving hungryman go unfed. Just my opinion.

Some of you guys do sound a little overreactive / scared. Not everyone who's hungry enough to ask for a handout is a life n death situation for you. Watch your back for sure, but don't lose your compassion for your fellow man. What goes around comes around.

[Soybomb]

One of my favorite homeless stories btw (not from me):

Here's the story. There's this homeless guy that frequents the Cherry Hill, NJ metro area that is constantly holding up signs that say "Need change for dinner tonight". My friend usually gives him a dollar or 2 whenhes sees him. He lives in his car - an old Mercedes something.

Well I was ok with the fact that he lives in a Mercedes that happens to run perfectly, but on my work today when I drove past where he usually sits, I damn near crashed my car...

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/19350DSCN0100-med.jpg

[Edward429451]

See what I mean? :D

Thats no druggie/alchoholic. Just a guy down on his luck, takin care of business the best way he can.

We all were helped out at sometime. It's good to pass the favor along.

[Redworm]

Thanks for your quick edit, and you are correct about Marc making a buck in his own way. We will save our debate for another time. This thread has a lot of potential and I don't want to sidetrack it either. I admit I was the one to start the tangent. I apologize. You, Redworm, have not offended anyone. I, XB, potentially did. If I offended you, I am sorry. Welcome to the forum!

I guess what I'm trying to say is a bum following you is not a reason to draw a weapon or make a fist. It is a reason to be wary and seek a way to stop the encounter. It's a case of street smarts, not fighting or shooting ability.

Nah, I can't take offense when someone offers an honest opinion. :cool: I would like to note that I am indeed just still a kid so my opinions are solely based on these short 22 years of experience.

And you're right, the absolute best way to survive a conflict is to avoid it completely.


You may also get to keep a disease like aids. Don't forget that in serious hand to hand fighting that you are very very likely to swap blood. If you bust him in the mouth and break his lip open at the same time as you cut your knuckle on his teeth and he has aids, you may have a serious problem that far outweighs the consequences of a street scuffle.

There are 101 other likely scenarios for picking up all kinds of transmittable diseases. Martial arts could well lead you into something you wish you didn't have.

Don't take this as another defense of martial arts, just sheer logic. While you do have a point that drawing blood does increase the risk of transmitting a blood-bourne disease, the chances of ever getting one from a fight is about as likely as getting hit by lightning or winning the lottery. Believe it or not it takes quite a bit of blood to transmit HIV.

But yes, fighting can get you into a lot of trouble in a variety of ways. It's just my opinion that if you get pulled into a fight and have no choice but to defend yourself, a little knowledge and confidence can go a very long way. :)

[butch50]

HIV is spread by needle-sharing among injecting drug users. Health care workers have been infected with HIV after being stuck with needles containing HIV-infected blood or, less frequently, after infected blood gets into the worker's bloodstream through an open cut or splashes into a mucous membrane (e.g., eyes or inside of the nose). http://www.thebody.com/cdc/factv.html

Not to contradict you on that, but in a fight you can easily get blood into your eyes, mouth, nose - and the amount of blood you can transfer in a fight would be far more than is left on a needle between uses. Aids is more readily transmittable than you might want to believe, if you are dedicated to close combat martial arts. I could understand why the concept would be disquieting to you.

The likelihood that a street person has aids, or tuberculosis, or hepatitis or lord knows what would seem to be substanitally higher than that of the ordinary run of the mill person. Even if I was inclined to use hand to hand combat techniques, I sure wouldn't want to do it with someone living on the streets and begging money.

[Redworm]

The reason needles transmit so easily is because they penetrate the skin and provide a direct medium for the infected blood to mix. I realize how easily blood can splash but remember than open wounds are technically not really open. From the instant the skin is broken your blood begins to clot (unless you have a blood disorder that hinders that), platelets and white blood cells converge specifically to protect the bloodstream from outside infection.

My fondness for martial arts has nothing to do with this. I've been in fights where not a drop of blood was spilled and they're far more prevalent when you know what you're doing. The bottom line is that HIV transmission is a lot harder than the media makes it out to be. Otherwise there'd be a lot more cops, firefighters, and paramedics getting infected every single day.

You're right in saying the chances are much higher with a bum, I certainly wouldn't want to fight one. But again, if you get forced into one, it's not a bad thing to know, imho.



hehe I should really shut up about this, shouldn't I? :p y'all have a nice evening :)

[XavierBreath]

OK, off towards the tangent again!..........
While you do have a point that drawing blood does increase the risk of transmitting a blood-bourne disease, the chances of ever getting one from a fight is about as likely as getting hit by lightning or winning the lottery. Believe it or not it takes quite a bit of blood to transmit HIV.
I was going to dispute you on this, but a bit of research showed that the facts are still against me.
The CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/faqs.htm#prevention) says this specifically about contact sports:
"There are no documented cases of HIV being transmitted during participation in sports. The very low risk of transmission during sports participation would involve sports with direct body contact in which bleeding might be expected to occur. If someone is bleeding, their participation in the sport should be interrupted until the wound stops bleeding and is both antiseptically cleaned and securely bandaged. There is no risk of HIV transmission through sports activities where bleeding does not occur."

Keep in mind that for cases to be documented, testing must be done both before and after the event. This is done in surgery and other jobs in healthcare (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/hip/BLOOD/hivpersonnel.htm). It is not usually done at sporting events, thus few documented occurances. Thus, healthcare workers wear goggles when they might be exposed to spurting blood, and boxers do not.

I would like to point out that people who teach or in some way profit from contact sports such as boxing and martial arts have a vested interest in keeping this risk quiet. Here (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=2122512) is an interesting CYA article on just this matter. Think about it. There is a reason that surgeons and nurses now wear disposable eye protection while they work. It is not to help them see better.

Because of the stigma long associated with HIV and other blood borne diseases, the statistics are still skewed. These include HIV, HBV (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/b/faqb.htm) and HCV (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/c/faq.htm). Other pathogens, such as MRSA (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/hip/ARESIST/mrsa_comm_faq_print.htm), are still emerging and not getting the same attention from the media. Health care workers represent the largest pool of people from whom data is gathered, because their histories are documented before and after contraction of the disease. Healthcare workers also typically participate voluntarily in the studies.

Looking at this data it would seem transmission risk in a fight is low. Consider though.......
When a policeman is bitten and his skin is broken, he is taken to the ER for testing, and educated on the need for follow-up tests. Why does his department do this?
When a nurse recieves a black eye from a violent patient, she is taken to the ER for testing, and educated on the need for follow-up tests. Why does the hospital do this?
When a high school student recieves a cut above his eye in a fist fight, the school board presents CDC statistics to show that the risk of transmission is low, and thus testing is unnecessary. Why?

The answer is simple. Money. Who is going to pay. As long as statistics show that the disease is contracted easier by other means, payor sources have a vested interest in establishing that a person who may become a potential drain on their bottom line was HIV positive prior to the incident. Thus they willingly pay for the testing, and in fact refuse to pay for the care if the person is not tested. In instances where there is no insurance companies involved, the CDC data is handed out as evidence that testing is not needed.

There is a reason for everything, including why sporting event promoters and school boards consider contestants to be at less risk for disease transmission than a policeman or a nurse who experiences essentially the same trauma. Think about this and consider where the truth may lie. Follow the money.

edited to add:
The reason needles transmit so easily is because they penetrate the skin and provide a direct medium for the infected blood to mix. No. Needles "core" the skin, and essentially transfer tissue as well as blood. The virus remains alive in both as long as the tissue stays alive. The vast majority of (documented) needlestick transmissions are in healthcare, accidents after injections. Some are small scratches, not pokes. 100% of hospitals in the US require testing following any needlestick, scratch or poke. Roughly half require testing after other blood contact, and even that is not compulsory. Thus, a high incidence of transmission via needles, low via splashes.

[Redworm]

ah, very good points

I learn something new every day :cool:

[butch50]

I suspect that atheletes would also be in the low Aids carrying percentage of the population as well - atheletes tend to take better care of themselves on average.

First thing you notice about EMTs and cops working an accident now is rubber gloves.

[spacemanspiff]

we wouldnt be having this conversation if you simply open carried like its your god given right to do.

:eek: :D


sorry guys, being away from civilization for an entire week looking at nothing but otters feeding on crabs in green glacial waters and eagles swooping down on unsuspecting salmon and not having to hear cars honking, phones ringing, or random driveby shootings can make a guy a little wacky.

in my case, wackier than usual. :D

[butch50]

Spaceman you have my deepest sympathies for your recent hardship. :D

And I agree.

[Nio]

I respect your dedication to martial arts, but don't let your devotion blind you.

Gunfighting isn't a martial art?

Nio

[Redworm]

I believe most wouldn't define it as such, though there's really no hard and fast definition of martial arts. Some consider it any form of self defense that is practiced to gain proficiency in. In which case styles such as Tae Kwon Do and Wushu don't really count because they're primarily for sport and show, respectively, as opposed to self defense. Others would only refer to martial arts as being the study of unarmed combat but that doesn't jive either because virtually every system teaches weapon use at some point (though those weapons are often common items that normally wouldn't be used as such, sticks and ropes for example).


I dunno....I've never thought of gun fighting as a martial art but since Yabusame and Kyudo (two styles of Japanese archery) are considered martial arts by many I guess it's not out of the question.


That's quite a conundrum... :confused:


edit: unless of course we're talking about Gun Kata :D

http://www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/JPGunkataCrop.JPG

[blackmind]

I'd like to take the opportunity to suggest martial arts. I haven't spent much time on this forum so I'm not sure what kind of reaction this will get. See, most forums I've been on have a smattering of gun owners. Many of them are great guys and girls, just like anyone else. But occassionally I've come across the gun owners that balk and laugh at any mention of martial arts, using the argument that with their ability to carry firearms it's pointless and useless as a form of self defense.


It's not pointless and it's not useless to know martial arts and be in good practice. The more options you have available to you, the better.

The only problem is that unless you're talking about blowguns and throwing stars, you're talking about hand-to-hand combat. My understanding is that once you are within arms reach of an assailant, you are in the gravest danger. How on earth can you know what level of physical strength and fighting prowess you are facing until he is within distance of hitting or grasping you? And then it's quite late to be reaching for your defensive pistol.

The idea is to never be close enough to be grabbed, if you can help it. Or so I am given to understand.

-blackmind

[joab]

Gunfighting isn't a martial art?Yes it is.
I was thinking the same thing earlier, but I'm old so I lost the thought until now

From Webster
mar·tial
Pronunciation: 'mär-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin martialis of Mars, from Mart-, Mars
1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
2 : relating to an army or to military life
3 : experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE

martial art
Function: noun
: any of several arts of combat and self-defense (as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport
- martial artist noun

[pt111gr]

Shooting a gun isn't an art, because millions of people all over the world can shoot just as good as anybody on this site. A art is something that few can do well. Unless you're shooting advils in mid air with a arrow or something to the extreme martial arts strictly refer to hand to hand combat.

[Redworm]

Nothing says that an art is something few people can do. Millions of people can throw a good punch but that doesn't negate the training that goes into any martial arts, the same way that while millions of people can shoot a gun it doesn't mean that it doesn't take skill and training to do it with a level of proficiency.

Besides, as I mentioned before, there are two forms of archery that are considered martial arts.

[pt111gr]

By that logic then stabbing someone with a knife is a martial art.

[chorlton]

Martial arts are effective, period (several years and scars from TKD). However everything has its limitations.
On the subject of being followed, I have stopped several times, at what i deem to be an advantageous location, and waited for the guy to pass, making sure he know that I know what he's doing with a glance in his direction. I feel I am at least in control of the situation that way. Don't be aggressive but be ready and clear headed.

[joab]

Shooting a gun isn't an art, because millions of people all over the world can shoot just as good as anybody on this site. You are aware that there are championship shooters here aren't you.
I'll agree that millions can shoot as well as many if not most here while standing on the firing line.
But the numbers drop significantly when you take them off the ACed range and compare their defensive skills to those here who have actually studied combat tactics at schools such as ThunderRanch, where they teach martial arts gunfighting skills to cops and such

By that logic then stabbing someone with a knife is a martial art.No, Hank, but training to be proficient enough to be able to competently use that knife in a combat type situation would be
Google Tulisan
A art is something that few can do well. Could you source that definition please

Unless you're shooting advils in mid air with a arrow or something to the extreme martial arts strictly refer to hand to hand combat.Then please explain nunchuks, kama, nunte, bo, sai, nagina ta,tonfa, yari, jo katana, and tanto ( and that's just in empty handed karate)

[Redworm]

By that logic then stabbing someone with a knife is a martial art.

No, by that logic a fighting system that teaches knife fighting techniques to increase the proficiency and safety of someone in a knife fight is a martial art. There are a variety of martial arts that include knife fighting as well as sword fighting, stick fighting, fighting with farm tools, even using a simple length of rope or a belt as a weapon.

[XavierBreath]

How about retreat as a martial art?
As in combat with troops, what our military calls a "tactical withdrawal".

Because it takes a great deal of skill among the leadership to prevent reversing troop movements from being over run by the enemy (there is a system), would not retreat be considered a martial art?

:)

[308Enfield]

I guess I'll join in on the discussion here. As more than one of my martial arts instructors have said, "the best martial art is track." Basically, you can't lose a fight if the BG doesn't catch you. As far as the practicality of martial arts, I'll be the first to admit that there's a lot of useless stuff being taught by belt factories out there. At the same time, GOOD martial arts are a good thing. Even if you don't subscribe to their use as fighting techniques, they at least condition your body to functioning with adrenaline, taking blows, and reacting to an opponent's movements.

I think going to a gun is just the maximum elevation of force in a fight. Escalation of force is a funny thing under the law, if somebody shoved me, I think I would have trouble defending myself in a court of law for breaking some of their ribs or dislocating a joint. At the same time, once they bring a weapon into play, its a deadly force situation.

This post has gotten longer than I intended. I guess my point is that if you can, run first, then fight at the level you have to to protect yourself and/or the people with you.

[joab]

Save the face for stomping on (with boots) after you get him down. That would be a felonious assault with a deadly weapon.
You can beat them into submission not into a coma

[chorlton]

On the other hand, a broken nose is very effective at giving you time to get away. When you're out of options, strike hard, strike fast and get out. You may not get a second shot.