How would you bag the big guy?

[clintpup]

The following is a portion of an article by Paul Williams that can be found at http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45634

Where is Osama bin Laden?

His whereabouts cannot be pinpointed by official military and intelligence sources, despite the drones that fly day and night over the Afghan-Pakistani border. Nor can his hiding place be determined by members of the media, who continue to provide c-notes to Pashtuns and Tajiks for useless information.

To discover the whereabouts of the world's most wanted man, it is best to turn to unofficial yet reliable sources, such as the professional soldiers for paramilitary corporations that attend the annual Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas. The mercenaries – "mercs" for short – know where he is since they are anxious albeit not willing to collect the $25 million bounty.

Osama bin Laden is alive and well and living in the valley of Dir within the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan. He has been there since he escaped from Tora Bora in December 2001.

To substantiate this claim, the mercs produce shabnamas or "night letters" that are circulated among the various tribes within the frontier. The night letters contain updates of Osama at work and play and photos of the al-Qaida leader with Maulvi Sufi Mohamed, an old and revered Muslim scholar, who maintains a Taliban-style rule over the valley of Dir with public executions of adulterers, homosexuals, apostates and Christian infidels.

Mercs point out that news of Osama's whereabouts was even published on the front page of the Daily Ummat, the leading Urdu language paper of Karachi, on Aug. 10, 2003. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. defense department – let alone the U. S. intelligence community – took heed of the article with the smiling face of the great emir before the invasions of Waziristan.

Dir remains within the Malakand Pass, the site of some of the fiercest skirmishes under the British Raj. A Pakistani army fort still stands where the young Winston Churchill shot down rebels and received a citation for heroism. Ironically, it now serves as the headquarters of the leader of the Mujahadeen who has unleashed a wave of terrorist attacks against Great Britain.

Despite the bounty, bin Laden remains not only safe and secure in Dir but also free to travel to other parts of the country, including regular trips to Peshawar and the smuggler-infested bazaar town of Rebat at the center of "the Devil's Triangle," the conjunction of the borders of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran.

No Muslim will dare to capture or kill him – not even a squadron of elite military personnel from the Musharraf government, let alone a group of professional bounty hunters. It is the duty of all Muslims to honor the revered leader of the Mujahadeen, who has been ordained to bring forth the Day of Islam.

What's more, bin Laden is protected by milmastia – the Islamic code of hospitality that demands protection for fellow Muslims who seek shelter in their country – even if such protection means risking their lives. Believing Muslims know that the $25 million reward comes with the price tag of apostasy and eternal damnation. Mercs point out that Pakistani soldiers and ISI officials are even unwilling to collar Osama and his cohorts when they appear in Peshawar. They don't want to go to hell for money or Musharraf.

Bin Laden remains protected by yet another factor. Any concerted attempt by the United States to invade any part of the North West Frontier Province by crossing the 680-mile border between Afghanistan and Pakistan in an effort to capture the world's most wanted man will be met by the resistance of the vast majority of 20 million Muslims who inhabit the formidable area.

Such resistance could lead to the toppling of the Musharraf regime with the result that Pakistan, with its arsenal of strategic nuclear weapons, would fall under the control of the radical mullahs, who wait in the wings.

At present, the way to Dir, according to the mercs, remains strewn with the bodies of would-be bounty hunters. They have been cast in the pines beside the dirt road. All have been tortured, stripped naked and castrated. Their eyeballs have been plucked from their sockets; their ears have been hacked off; and their tongues have been ripped from their mouths. Notes have been strapped to the groin of every victim. "Do not be angry or shocked," the notes say in Pashtu. "These are the bodies of agents of the USA."

OK, time to indulge your Rambo fantasies! How would you bag the big guy? What weapons would you take, and what tactics would you use?

[marshall2]

Military options are going down the wrong path. The way to defeat/capture etc OBL is for the USA to genuinely do what we said we were going to do: bring justice, freedom, liberty for ALL and prosperity to Afghanistan and Iraq. If we bring such blessings wherever we go, OBL's own people will abandon him. We need to start pouring many billions of dollars into building schools, hospitals, grocery stores, banks, bridges, highways, railroads, TV and radio stations, K-Marts, Wal-Marts, electric power grid, water, oil refineries, auto manu plants, etc. The only way we can win is if we truly become a Savior to those nations.

[swmike]

If I were to enter into a real world game, I would not reveal my plans but since this is "fantasy" here goes. First I would round up some of Osama's followers family members (the closer the better) and start sending parts or just posting pictures on the 'net. Small ones first. All would stop when Osama's head was delivered. Will this happen? No, because the will to do so doesn't exist at the levels necessary.

Remember when the Soviet Union was still intact and they were considered a power not to be messed with. Hostages were taken in the US Embassy in Iran but nobody messed with the Soviet Embassy. Wonder why?

[Rangefinder]

Since we're in fantasy-land and I have whatever I want at my disposal.... I'd keep it simple. Drop Blister-Agent on the entire area. If he's gonna die, it had better be agonizing!

[progunner1957]

I would do what Bush gave his word that he would do in the days following the 9-11 atrocities. Bush rattled his sabre and blew alot of sunshine up We The People's @sses, but ask yourself this question: Has he or has he not lived up to his tough talk 100%?

The only answer can be "no."

While our gutless politicians sit in D.C. and wring their hands, Bin Laden lives a carefree life - and laughs at their impotence and cowardice.

I wouldn't even bother trying to beg and bribe Pakistan into turning him over; the "government" of Pakistan has proven itself to be a two-faced backstabber to the United States; they have provided aid and comfort to the creature responsible for the slaughter of 3000+ innocent Americans. In doing so, the "government" of Pakistan HAS FOREFITED ANY AND ALL CLAIMS TO BEING A LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT.

If I were king, I would pinpoint Bin Laden's location using Predator drones, which has already been done. I would put AC-130 Specter gunships on orbit overhead along with F-18 Super Hornets loaded to the gills with ordinance; I would have B-52's loaded with cruise missles on station, just in case.

I would send in four armed to the teeth Ranger battallions to get Bin Laden and would employ the AC-130s, F-18s and cruise missles to make a red mist out of ANYONE fired on the Rangers, Pakistani military forces included. Under that scenario, bringing Bin Laden - or parts of him - to justice would be inevitable.

We have the Rangers, who would jump at the chance to do this; we have the gunships, the fighters and the cruise missles. What we don't have are elected "leaders" with the b@lls to do it. How disgustingly pathetic.

And they wonder why America is the punching bag of the world; for the answer to that, all our "leaders" need to do is look in the mirror - if they can stand the sight.

[oystermick]

Well, this silly little game of second guessing by mall nijas has no credibility. You all sit around in your camouflage underwear and play the game on a computer while real men who are doing the work are dying. You sicken me.

[Rangefinder]

Well, this silly little game of second guessing by mall nijas has no credibility. You all sit around in your camouflage underwear and play the game on a computer while real men who are doing the work are dying. You sicken me.

Easy there Turbo, don't just make assumptions that we're all a bunch of wanna-be's with too much time on the X-Box. I've had my time in the hot spots and had more live fire sent with intent to kill me than I care to think about. If you can't handle a little light-hearted stupidity once in a while, just reserve comment for something more worth-while.

[defjon]

^ +1

and while I'm at it...+1 to the guy that said **** the Paki's and just get it done

[RWK]

oystermick,

I appreciate why you ridicule the “mall ninjas” and there certainly may be some on TFL. However, like others here, I served on active duty for two decades, including combat, sea duty, oversea assignments, and so forth. I would respectfully request that frame your comments in a way that recognize that not all who participate are armatures or want-to-bes.

[rugerdude]

I like to have a little fun on these forums, so here goes:

(this scenario assumes that I am a highly trained member of Marine Force Recon....Which I most definitely am NOT)

I would go in with a 6 man team (including myself). I would be armed with either an FAL or the good ole' AK-47 (probably the AK because it is light and short). My team would have an M-240B, some M-4s and M-16s and a sniper with an M-21. For sidearms, I would carry a S&W 4in. barrel stainless steel .357 and my team would have mk23 socoms and USPs.

Interrogate family members as to osama's wherabouts and move in. We would have the support of UH-60 blackhawks armed with mini-guns and Cobra gunships.

ofcourse, this would never work....but hey, he said rambo fantasy, so there.

[Morgan]

I'll take two to one bets that Bin Laden is dead. We'll never find his body - it's buried in a cave in Afghanistan somewhere.

Think about it - he was known for his video releases. He was known for taunting the West. Ever since Tora Bora all we have are audio releases that sound like him.

If he were alive he'd send out video, probably with a copy of yesterday's paper involved to show he's still alive, as a big F you to his enemies.

[Limeyfellow]

Interrigate his family members? They are all in Saudi Arabia being flown out by special order of the President before any of them can be questioned. No way would then then risk ******* of the Saudis who could well cut off the oil and it will really hurt the Carlisle Group and so on and by that account cost the Bush family and friends millions of dollars. Its never going to happen.

They were hot on his trail in Afghanistan and about to apprehend him when both US special forces and British special forces were close to capturing the group. They then put them on hold and sent most of them off to Iraq. Sad thing is we now have the SAS on guard duty in Iraq rather wasting the talent and money. They never going to approve a capture like that.

So they leaves us with doing a rain dance and hoping it brings down lightning and fries them all. They still shouldn't have trained all these nutjobs in the cold war to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Don't they realise that most the time this comes to biting them in the arse and have done so for millenia?

[bclark1]

high yield nukes hitting one for every 10 square miles in afghanistan, pakistan, iraq, syria, lybia, sudan, saudi arabia, egypt, algeria, lebanon, yemen... maybe the fallout will take care of the ones i forgot. all of qatar will be converted to a fallout shelter. that'd sort all this mess out.

[Duxman]

Hostile territory + I would use a US / SAS spec forces sniper team - armed with .300 win mag rifles as primary for the sniper, M14s as backup, and laser designators for taking out big targets. Scatter them along the path pick up and rotate every 3 months, one team would bag UMB - within 6 months if he is not dead yet.

[swmike]

high yield nukes hitting one for every 10 square miles in afghanistan, pakistan, iraq, syria, lybia, sudan, saudi arabia, egypt, algeria, lebanon, yemen... maybe the fallout will take care of the ones i forgot. all of qatar will be converted to a fallout shelter. that'd sort all this mess out.
Not to mention how the extra explosive activity might enhance oil production from the older fields. Get two for the price of one. :D

[joab]

I'll take two to one bets that Bin Laden is dead. We'll never find his body - it's buried in a cave in Afghanistan somewhere. My sources say that it was cut up and dumped in a deep lake somewhere in A-stan

[claude783]

OK, let's play this game. Since for all practical purposes we are not going to be able to field agents into this part of the world, we are going to have to attack something that is dear to the ol' b***t**d.

I understand that he has kidney problems, also diabetes. Somewhere he is receiving medication to treat/control his problem. Also since this medication is "shipped" in from the outside (civilized) world, I would begin by adding something in small quanities.

The purpose of this "addition" would be to cause a problem which could only be treated by the west...say something which would slowly destroy the liver, perhaps cause cancer, but something added to the medication going into that part of the world that "only" someone of his staute would be able to afford/receive!

If Mohammad can't go to the mountain, make the mountain come to Mohammand!

[Wraith]

Simple, two teams. The first team would create a diversion to draw resistance. The assault team would then move in while employing tear gas, gas masks, and armored vehicles. Emphasis would be placed on suppressive fire with a few members being designated killers. After the assault team is in, the diversionary team would either stay put, or move back, depending on the battle and how the enemy is responding. At this point they too would employ chemical agents.

To further aid the assault, a small mortar team would bombard enemy routes of escape so as to keep BL trapped. Obviously any attack plan would rely heavily on terrain. If possible, employ snipers to hit targets after the attack begins. The option of snipers would have to be explored, as any plan would require their fast extraction from the battlefield. No one wants to fight for a 25 million reward if they can’t live to spend it.

Pay would be divided according to the risk of each relative position with the assault team receiving the most, diversionary team, snipers, mortar team, in that order. I imagine those injured would receive a bonus.

As I said, emphasis on suppressive fire, fast attack, massive firepower. If possible, the assault should be conducted at night. You don't need to kill the entirety of the enemy, just keep them pinned down so as to capture the main objective.



One last thing... How do I sign up? :confused:

[Tim Burke]

Think about it - he was known for his video releases. He was known for taunting the West. Ever since Tora Bora all we have are audio releases that sound like him.
That was my argument... right up until he released a video tape just before the 2004 election. I don't think it holds water anymore.

[Morgan]

Tim - maybe... There is no way to determine the age of the tape, and my gut tells me he'd be rubbing in surviving the West's failure to catch or kill him if he were around to do so.

[SamD]

Don't place a lot of faith in the tales of so called mercenaries. Where have they been working lately? Think he is really quite dead or so close to it as to not matter. Think if he is dead we need to keep it a secret, otherwise the sheep will go to sleep again (like they are doing now). Osama nees to be what we use to scare little children into good behavior, sor of a modern boogerman.

If he is alive and kicking, removeing him from the equation is easy.

Just like shooting bears, Stake out 72 virgins on a deserted chunk of southwest Afghan real estate and wait. When he shows drop an 8 megaton H bomb on his sorry @$$ :D

Sam

[Major Allthumbs]

The nutron bomb should penatrate caves !
My plan B is to send in elite ninja clones dressed like Austin Powers armed with Hi-point 380's & pork rinds. Every towel head they encouter would be interogated and quickly dispatched with a Judo chop followed by a "YEAH BABY !" Does that make you horny baby? :D ;)

[Tim Burke]

There is no way to determine the age of the tape
Maybe not the exact age, but...In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida.Sounds to me like this tape was made after the Presidential campaign became Bush vs. Kerry, so summer of 2004 or later. This was well after Tora Bora. He also mentions the Patriot act... I'm not sure when it became a topic of discussion. If that was before Tora Bora, then if you want to speculate that he made a bunch of tapes prior to his demise, identical except for the names of the democratic contender, so that they would likely have one that mentions the correct candidates even if he bit the dust, you may. I won't dispute that as a possibility, although I may laugh at the argument.

[foghornl]

...but nobody messed with the Soviet Embassy. Wonder why?

Something to do with Soviet Policy of the time...

"You take over our Embassy ? ? No problem. We take over your COUNTRY."

[bdc]

1970s - Afghanistan. I was there. This may qualify me a bit more than the computer jockies whose knee jerk response might be "send in the Marines".

First some background. The only paved road is a road constructed in the 1950s as a reinforced airplane runway runing almost the length of the country. Constructed by the Russians. Used by the Russians to invade the country. There isn't and hasn't been FedX truck home deliveries, the UPS truck or much built up. The only effective way in is through Red China. We were denied access to the road on the silk route that was reconstructed by the Red Chinese to support troop transports and tanks.

In the 1970s and 1980s the Russians constructed a last ditch command and control center high in the mountains that would be used in the event of nuclear war. It was impregnable. It was abandoned only three years after the purported end of the Russian-Afghani War.

Forget your bunker busters, Rambos, helicopters that can't go much higher than 10,000 feet.

Guess who tunk over the complex when the Russians left and made further improvements? Ok, you get a cigar.

It is an open question as to how to approach the redoubt.

If you had immagination in the US military, some one would be thinking about how the Belgian fort was taken out in 1940 by the German Army at the beginning of the war on the western front (hint, it wasn't paratroopers, it was engineers blasting shell craters used by creeping and approaching troops).

If you think that he will be taken in a frontal assault, guess again.

There seems to be no end to people who fantasize.

How did the Afghanis fight the Russians. Well, Afghanistan is criss crossed by hundreds of miles of subterranean water tunnels used for irrigation. The Russians couldn't root them out.

If the guy is not poisoned on a bribe, I will make a predicition of the approach. It was taken against Mosby in the Civil War. It was taken against Geronimo in the Indian Wars. You train your people to fight and think like the enemy. Sherridan hired local sympathizers finally to fight Mosby. At first they were ineffective, then they became increasingly effective. US military hired local Indians to fight Geronimo, track him, and to deny him places or rest and recoupment.

On a personal level, nothing pisses me more than an unthinking approach. In 2002, the cost for fielding 500 Seals in the world was $1 million per Seal per year. The average age of an SF type guy is about 30 - 32 years. It takes that long to develop the skills. The total no. of SF types in the alphabet soup units is a grand amount of about 35,000. In the last election, some candidate said the solution was to double SF. Yeah. Sure. Spend another 350,000,000,000 US a year? Dream on. And how do you get them and their supplies there?

When 9/11 ocurred, I was asked what I would do. Well, kids, here it is. Charter a jet and send 76 FBI agents to Yemen with $1,000,000 each and hire local interpreters. Each agent would approach a family of one of the 76 Yemni citizens killed in the 9/11 event in NY. Each agent would have a budget. Each family would make proposals for revenge. Simple. And so how did you "win" in Afghanistan a couple of years ago? By sending in 100,000 US troops or by sending in bundles of $100 bills?

[Don Gwinn]

We don't call people "towel heads" here and we also don't engage in personal attacks against other members. If you can't resist that sort of thing, you have email and PM to vent.

[75thRangerRegiment]

"I would send in four armed to the teeth Ranger battallions to get Bin Laden and would employ the AC-130s, F-18s and cruise missles to make "

unfortunately we only have 3 active duty Ranger Battalions at the present. There is also the Ranger Training Brigade Battalions but they would be better kept stateside so they could train new Rangers how to kill.We should have as many Ranger Battalions as we did in WWII.

now for a tangent rant:
And transforming the Glorious 101st Airborne Division into air assault like we did in the late 80's was a total mis- judgement by powers that be(were). We should have built an Air Assault division from scratch - not pillage a tightly cohesive Airborne Division!!! The dumb bastards.....
HOOOOAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Oyster - very "nice" comments bud. Getting older here but 1st Rgr Battalion served with pride until years of 48-50 week training cycles took their toll on these elbows and shoulders.And chronic tendonitis that the Ortho's say will never be the same. Alot of us here have paid a price in one way or another - PS- ninjas are gay wannabes from the 80's dude!

[PSE]

If you walked into your kitchen late one night and there were roaches all over your birthday cake that scattered when you turned on the light. well, you just happen to notice this one big red roach.
so you set it in your mind "im gonna get that &%$* RED roach".
are you gonna just disregard the rest of the roaches to get that one big red roach?
NO!
YOU KILL THEM ALL!
sooner or later youll get the red one.

[mrcalm7]

This thread is a mockery to all the men and women presently pursuing this maniac.

Shut it down.

[CarbineCaleb]

While the military and other government agencies certainly do make mistakes, I don't think that catching or killing Bin Laden is at all an easy task.


Bin Laden is an experienced guerilla leader, and with a long record of success, clearly he is quite competent as well.
He is hiding in a rugged area that is difficult to travel in and offers many hiding places from technological surveillance
The size of the potential area he is hiding in also confounds technological surveillance - it's not possible to see everything over tens of thousands of square miles with high resolution - can't be done.
He knows both the geography and the tactics of guerilla warfare in this area very well, having over 20 years experience in the region, and having helped lead the fight against another superpower there.
With his long history there, he is something of a hero to most in the area, and feared by most of the rest. So most people will help him, or at least not risk hurting him.
In small rural towns that exist out there, just like here, everyone knows everyone, and outsiders, even from the same country stick out like a sore thumb. Not so easy to just travel around and gather intelligence.
The residents in these particular regions are fiercely independent, and well armed - they have never really been successfully governed by any central authority.
Pakistan is a sovereign country with an unstable government, and large, powerful radical groups who oppose it. The president has already survived two assassination attempts. Civil war and/or a coup are ever present possibilities. He cannot allow the Americans to operate freely - that would immediately be known, and almost certainly cause one of the preceding consequences. Those consequences by the way, would not only be bad for Musharraf and Pakistan, they'd be bad for the world, including the US of A.
Bin Laden is well financed - he has a significant amount of personal wealth, and his organization is engaged in raising capital by all methods possible, both legal and illegal. He has considerable means at his disposal.


I do think that it's possible to get Bin Laden, but I sure don't think that is an easy task.