Killer Croc - Scenario

[Duxman]

Recently in Africa over 200 people near Lake Tanganyika have disappeared. Initially thought to be the result of tribal warfare, or the work of a serial killer, the disappearances are now being attributed to a giant crocodile estimated to be 9 meters long and nearly a century old.

The above is a true story where a French (yeah good move) Hunter is asked to take out a crocodile over 30 feet long that has eaten over 200 people in this village. The army tried to unsuccessfully kill it with 7.62mm rounds. (Did not penetrate the croc's armor).

Here is the scenario: You and three of your friends are hired by the government to go out there and take out this crocodile doing minimum damage to the ecosystem (No bombs or rockets allowed.) What firearm do you take: (I will post later on what the Frenchie did and how well he succeeded. :D

[Marko Kloos]

Nine meters is right around thirty feet, not eighteen.

What would I take to kill a thirty-foot man-eating croc?

A tactical nuke.

[jeff_troop]

a hardened lead +p in 45-70 will be devastating. it will likely run entire length of the croc and expand like a mf'er. a 50 would punch through and do little damage, .375--to small but with the proper bullet would expand nicely.

[Nio]

Having shot alligators, .30-06 is plenty.

Nio

[Double Naught Spy]

duxman, I think you have applied folklore to reality. 7.62 rounds not penetrating the croc's armor is just plain wrong. First, the armor is NOT uniform over its body. They may have quite a bit, most in the back, but there are still huge gaps in it. There are significant gaps in the sides and little or none on the belly (not a likely shot). The head is nothing special. There is a good amount of bone, but nothing 7.62 proof. Armor is also missing from all areas where there is significant movement required such as at the jaw and articulations of the limbs.

I see you obtained your intro from PBS - http://teacher.shop.pbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=1796976&cp=1397886&parentPage=family

So why would you need guns for this croc? Why not just set a baited trap, thereby doing almost no eco damage?

[Trip20]

The channel "Animal Planet" had a show on this past weekend, one story they went through was of a 20' gator who snacked on a woman.

The DNR guy or other type of enforcement officer emptied his pistol and killed the gator. His pistol was loaded with 9x19 IIRC.

That's pretty big for a gator - so I suppose all you "need" is 9x19. :D

[SamD]

I don't know what armor you are referring to.
Heavy skin/scales yes, armor no. A 3 quick loads of 1 3/8oz #4's to the base of the skull will do a 16 foot crock at 10 feet albiet with quite a bit of fuss and thrashing.

Sam

[USP45usp]

I chose "other" because your poll only asked about an 18 foot gator :p .

Now a 30 footer, .308 and up most likey but just for the splatter aspect a explosive tipped 50cal :D.

Wayne

[bclark1]

re: mythbusters thread on rifle bullets in water
the 7.62s may have become ineffectual in the water. they'd certainly kill a croc though if you hit it in the vitals.
the rumor is that the croc has killed up to 200, but it's been over a couple decades, not recently as if it's a daily occurrence.

honestly bigger's always better but if i had my CCW .40 i'd trust it against the croc. if you're already in the jaws it doesn't really matter, reptile that big you can't really get "saved" from unless he's only got an extremity, and you can just lose it and bolt.

[riverkeeper]

Side Arm is 44mag S-W ported with approx 300 gr hard bear loads
Primary is either--
12 guage magnum buckshot/slugs
minimum 30/30 to 30/06 with decent penetrating rounds

[Capt Charlie]

Somebody's telling fish stories here. The world record for a croc is 17 feet, 4 inches, taken by Pat Harkins in 1997. But then, we all know about the French and "tall tales" :D . Crocs and gators aren't that hard to kill. Almost any centerfire rifle caliber, along with handguns .357 and up will do the deed. So... I chose other for a .30/06, just to keep from being punished by the big magnums :eek: :D .

[Wraith]

The only caliber that I love nearly as much as the 7mm-08 is the .45-70. For all the reasons stated above. I would put a .45-70 up against anything.

As for croc deflecting ANY 7.62 round... phooey. Sounds like the locals are either poor shots or they are poor shots. ;)

[cuate]

Head shot any rifle I have except .22 or .22 Mag. I am just completely wacky about good .30 calibers, I wouldn't shoot a Water Buffalo, Rhino, Elephant, or Hippo with a .30 unless it was all I had and I was very, very fleet on foot!

No worry, none of the above in Comanche County, Texas and I am too old, broke, and lack the desire to travel to the dark continent for hunting safari.

[Trip20]

Capt Charlie - check out Animal Planets website and look for the show I'm speaking of which was on this past weekend. Unless my mind is playing tricks on me, or unless my memory is just that horrible (totally possible) the show spoke of an alligator that was 20' long.

Actually I think it was almost 21' long (i.e. 20' 11.5").

I'm not lying on behalf of Animal Planet, and I'm not French :barf: :p

PS/Edit: Unless it was a croc in Florida they were talking about!

[Trapp]

True story, went gator hunting with some friends and my dad (grew up in Louisiana). First gator, 10ft, 3 shots point blank to the head (brain area) 2nd gator 12ft 5 shots to the head, 3rd gator 9ft 1 shot to the head. .357 ruger gp100 (unknown loads, but they were magnums) 4" bbl. Went fishing for four hours later. Caught 7 reds, and a few flounder. Got back in I started cleaning the fish. They took the first gator off (10ft), started skinning it. Second gator, they grabbed its tail to yank it off and it jumped up about a foot and took off running. This 5ft nuthin Coonass takes a 5lb maul and starts bashing it in the head. Another coonass runs up with with a cane knife and hacks it at the base of the tail. He then shoves a stiff piano wire up its spine and it meets its demise...


Summary: Send a couple'a coonasses and be done with it................

[Capt Charlie]

Hi Trip! Not doubting you, just couldn't find it on the Animal Planet web site. I think I read somewhere that gators and crocs never stop growing, and that they die from natural factors before becoming true giants. The record 17 footer was considered only from wild takes, but I believe there are bigger in captivity. What surprised me was that this record was a Nile croc, and I always thought the Aussie Salties were the biggest. The "giant animal" thing always fascinates me, especially when it comes to snakes. A little less than a year ago, there were claims of a 40 foot reticulated python being caught in Indonesia. The guy making the claim of discovering it was supposedly a reputable herpetologist, and reporters and scientists from all over the world flocked there in droves, only to find out it measured somewhere around 25 feet (if memory serves). Still, that's not one I'd care to wrestle with :D . Cryptozoology is a thriving science with hundreds of new species being discovered each year, so I wouldn't be too surprised at anything that turns up.

[pax]

Jeff Cooper reported that one African tribe traditionally dealt with bothersome crocs by using a buffalo hide (first catch your buffalo) and some offal.

The buffalo hide would be cut into a single, continuous 60-foot strip of leather about two inches wide. One end would be tied to a sturdy tree on the river bank, while the other would be tied around a couple pounds of rotting meat and tossed into the river.

Croc would come along and swallow the bait plus about 10 feet of line, but would not be able to bite through the line (croc's teeth are made to hold, not to tear or bite). Because the line was there, croc would also be unable to close off his gullet, and would subsequently drown.

Seems to me that would be more satisfactory than shooting a croc, and probably easier too.

Cooper further reported that you don't need heavy calibers to get a croc, just surgical accuracy and a shot that takes out either the walnut-sized brain, or the spinal column. If your shot does neither of those two things, croc will dive into the water and you'll never know if you got him. Croc certainly wouldn't be recoverable after diving, in most instances.

pax

[Marko Kloos]

Well, the last gator kill with which I'm acquainted involved a .22 Super Colibri to the skull for a one-shot stop, so their hides aren't that tough.

Also, the thirty-foot estimate is probably overestimating the size of the croc by ten feet or so. The largest recorded croc measured just a skosh under 21', and there have never been verified measurements of larger ones anywhere in the world. 20 feet is at the top end for all crocodilian species, and crocs over twenty feet in length are pretty rare (and never very much over 20'.)

Leave it to lady pax to approach the problem with a brain solution rather than a caliber solution.

[stephen426]

I'm not talking about using nukes here so I don't think my suggestion would be too harmful to the environment. Take a dead goat and throw a few land mines or a few chunks of C-4 rigged to go off remotely. Better yet, put a time delay on the C-4 and have it set to go off after the croc pulls it off the trip wire. Kaboom! No more croc. I don't care how tough the animal on the outside. Any animal is vulnerable from the inside!

Now if explosives really are banned for some reason or other, I say put a biodegradable toxin (anything highly caustic or acidic ought to do the trick) in a few thin glass vials and shove them in the goat carcass. When the croc chomps down, it break the vials and says good night for good! Again, any animal is vulnerable from the inside.

Finally, if poisons are out then you can use a .50 BMG. If it will level small trees, I am sure you can find a few weak spots on mr. croc. You can even bait it and nail it when it comes to feed.

The sad thing is that the croc has every right to live. We always put ourselves at the top of the food chain and as dominanat species of the world. We are among the most feeble animal based on size. I'd still kill it if it were after me but its sad to see an animal live so long just to get nailed like that. I'm sure the victems moved into the croc's territory and not the other way around.

[grimjaw]

I've heard that alligators/crocodiles have very strong muscles to grip, but not to open their jaws. If you can manage to get something around it's jaw and shut it (a *reeeeeally* long noose on a pole), at least it won't bite your leg off. It might still do a flying croc body block on you, though.

I chose lever action .45-70. pax had the best idea, though

[stephen426]

grimjaw, do you really think you can control a 20 foot+ croc? Maybe if you had a thick stainless steel cable attacked to a crane you could noose it but that is too much trouble. Anything less and you are looking to get yourself in a world of hurt. One whip of a croc's tail is enough to break your leg. These are VERY powerful creatures we are talking about.

[Eghad]

that tail can put you in a world of hurt.........

[cosmolinelover]

I'd shoot bottle rockets and throw firecrackers at the croc ... they should get through that thick "armor"

[USP45usp]

After watching the Croc. Hunter, and then my Mom actually meeting them (Terri is from Oregon) for reasons that I can't disclose, if you got the noose on it and let it thrash around then it's own body toxins will kill it (due to stress). You don't have to get anywhere near it.

But honesly, in this case they should just call the Zoo in Australia and get Steve to go and capture it if it is a world record. And if a croc has already gotten him (I haven't seen any episodes in awhile that were new) then you always have Jeff Corwin and others out there.

But to **** off the peta types, I like gator tail, you can get that in Florida :D.

Wayne

[MassHunter2190]

I got shot in the head with a bottle rocket this past 4th of July. It hurt, but there's no way it would ever penetrate a crocs skull.

I'd bring a 12 gauge with at least a 5 round capacity loaded with 3.5" slugs. I know, I'm so original.

But if I wanted to make it a real challenge, I'd take a truck down there, tie the winch cable so it will work as a noose, get a pole, get the noose around the croc using the pole, and drag him out.

[Trip20]

Hi Trip! Not doubting you, just couldn't find it on the Animal Planet web site. I think I read somewhere that gators and crocs never stop growing, and that they die from natural factors before becoming true giants. The record 17 footer was considered only from wild takes, but I believe there are bigger in captivity.

The above reminded me of something regarding the show I watched. First of all, I couldn't find a thing about it on Animal Planets website either. After a bit of "hard thinking" I think it was one of those "Extreme _____" show's, whereas the gator was only one portion of the show. If you could locate the scheduling for this past weekend I might be able to remember the name of the show.

Lastly, your comment "only from wild takes" (assuming you meant lakes) reminded me that this particular story (whether my memory is correct and it was a 20-footer or not) took place in a private community with about a 30-40 acre lake. Homes all around the perimeter. The "tone" of the residents of this particular lake was one of "they don't bother us, we don't bother them". And if I remember correctly, the DNR fella from Florida which was interviewed stated something along the lines of "when gators get 7' or longer they are captured and....."

Can't remember the rest of his comment word for word but the ones over 7' were either "dealt with" or moved to another location especially when they're captured in a populated area (such as this private community). I think this gator was moved at some point (around the 12' length) and then made it's way back (not sure how they knew it was the same one) only to be ignored and left alone. Pets went missing...etc, all the cliche's.

That's all I got, hopefully I'm not full of crap, but it's what I remember from the show.

Edit: I think my 20-footer memory is off base. What I've found is the world record American alligator being 19' 2" long. So my story while honest from me, is untrue as my memory is doo-doo. God I hate being liar. :cool:

[kymasabe]

I wouldn't want to go with anything less than .50 cal.

[Half-Price Assassin]

.44 magnum in the Croc's face, i bet that will do it! it will blow his head clean off

[Capt Charlie]

Sorry 'bout that Trip. I meant taken from the wild as opposed to captive critters that get lots of food, TLC, and lady gators (no wonder they always look like they're smiling :D) . Last week, on either Animal Planet or Natl. Geographic channel, they did a thing on Sanibelle Island in Fla., where folks don't "take care" of big gators. Seems those gators have put humans on the menu, and folks are rethinking their peace treaty with the critters. A couple of years ago, I went to S. Florida for some scuba diving at John Pennicamp, and managed to get in a few days of bass fishing in the canals south of Miami. I like to fish topwater, and every other cast had a 4-6 foot gator following the lure. Glad I didn't catch one :eek: :D . Obviously, I didn't catch any bass :( :D . But I was ready for them big gators with my trusty Walther PPK :D .

[LAK]

Whereas the current officially sanctioned record might be somewhat less than 18 feet, many hunter/writers from the 19th century into the 20th century have noted credible stories of some approaching 30 feet in length. However even a 15 footer is an enormous and very powerful reptile. Peter Capstick Hathaway relates a story of one allegedly taking a rhino into the water after an hourlong struggle in one of his books.

But since stopping a croc is a brain shot; I'd take any big game cartridge .25 or over with a heavily constructed bullet. And I think I'd wallop the spine at a few points just to make sure.

[Trip20]

But I was ready for them big gators with my trusty Walther PPK

You mean you didn't have your Barrett M82A1 strapped to your side?!!! :eek:

[Trip20]

LOL! :D

Capt Charlie, your gonna laugh at me.

I finally found the story (or mention of it) at this site (http://www.sanibel-captiva.org/biz/news/alligators.html).

"The vote came 13 days after Sanibel landscaper Janie Melsek, 54, was attacked by an 11-foot, 9-inch alligator as she worked beside a pond. Melsek died two days later. "

/\ That's the story told on Animal Planet or National Geographic. Pretty far from a 20 footer eh?! :o

[Twycross]

I would try to trap it in the manner that pax quoted. That failing, I voted for the .460 Weatherby.

[Superhornet]

.308/7.62 Nato will demise any gator or croc that was ever put on this planet in the last 50,000 years. TAIL is good. So is gator tail.

[Capt Charlie]

You mean you didn't have your Barrett M82A1 strapped to your side?!!!
Well, I s'pose I could've brought it along, tied some fishin' line to the muzzle, and used it for a flippin' rod :D .

And yup, that was the show I was talking about. The landscaper lady didn't actually die from the gator bite though; she died from the resulting infection.

A while back, Natl. Geographic did a thing on an extinct, super croc from Australia that reached lengths of 40 feet! :eek: They said it fed on dinosaurs! Guess I'd have to rip the fishin' line off of that Barrett and hope like hell it was enough gun! :D

I seem to recall a post awhile back by Rich Lucibella with a photo of a huge Nile croc he shot. What's the story behind that, Rich?

[ATW525]

Crocodiles used to be a tad bit bigger back in the day...

SuperCroc (http://www.supercroc.com/)

[Duxman]

Thanks for input gentlemen. In the real story, the government gave Frenchie 3 months to get the Gator. The Army had previously hunted the gator but failed to kill it for one reason or another.

His plan was to use steel tubing and build an impregnable cage, and capture the specimen. (Bad plan to begin with) They started with a goat's head as bait, then a live chicken, and then in the true Jurassic park tradition, used a live goat.

The result: A destroyed cage, dead goat, loss of $12,000 in underwater / nightvision camera(s) and one TV show on PBS last week. (Nice catch DNS)

Rethinking my original vote now (.50 BMG), I would go with a 45-70 and be confident that would be enough. Happy hunting. Im sure the job is still available to those who want it..... :eek:

[SGHOTH]

I think I would try about 100 lbs of Alka Seltzer. :D

[wayneinFL]

There are reputable stories of people poaching gators with .22's. I've known people who've taken them with 357's. Known one or two crazy rednecks who will jump on a gator and wrestle it. Even though we are talking about much larger crocodiles, I think any decent 30 caliber would do quite well.

My dad's friend lost a son when I was a kid. I don't know if this made it into the "official" count of alligator attacks- I remember there was speculation as to whether he drowned before the alligator got him or in an attack. I don't think he just drowned as he was known as a good swimmer, and was just swimming across a canal while his friends watched.

Gators don't scare me next to a boat or canoe or (with some distance) on foot, but I still can't bring myself to swim in a freshwater canal or river. I don't care how many other people do it and say it's o.k. Anytime I get close to freshwater, be it a canal drainage ditch or marsh, I'm on the lookout. They don't keep me away, but I'm ever vigilant.

[Limeyfellow]

I saw the programme about the hunting for that crocodile on PBS one week and the hard bit is finding it and getting a clear shot since those buggers are really quick and can easily move their body distance in a strike. They never could get it in the end. It damaged the cage and got free and was believed to have moved on elsewhere as the deaths seemed to have stopped.

Crocodiles can also survive various shots. I seen footage, photos of some having half their jaws shot off, shot in the eye, legs blown off, tails half gone and such and they have a really potent immune system. I can quite see how one could take a few shots especially if they made quick withdrawals, though at the size it is reputed its likely near the end of its lifespan and this story is closer to like 4 years old.

Of course other times crocodiles get killed by one bullet and poachers are very successful at hunting them. If I was going after them I would tend to avoid alot of full metal jackets, armour piercing and so on as you will just shoot through the croc and they have a good chance of surviving. You want something to stay in the body carrying on doing damage or bounce around in the body, or go for a good shot aiming for the brain or the internal organs. Of course in most countries they are protected by law.

[Capt Charlie]

Gators don't scare me next to a boat or canoe or (with some distance) on foot, but I still can't bring myself to swim in a freshwater canal or river. I don't care how many other people do it and say it's o.k. Anytime I get close to freshwater, be it a canal drainage ditch or marsh, I'm on the lookout. They don't keep me away, but I'm ever vigilant.
The most dangerous place to be is in their ambush zone, which is right on the water's edge. In Australia and Africa, I understand that's where most people are grabbed.

[CarbineCaleb]

The most dangerous place to be is in their ambush zone, which is right on the water's edge. In Australia and Africa, I understand that's where most people are grabbed.

That makes sense, because that's where they often take other land dwelling prey... when they come to the edge. There was a rather unsettling sequence of photos in National Geographic of a wildebeest (if I recall) getting taken by a big croc as he came to the edge to drink - croc caught him on the end of the muzzle and just dragged him into the water where he could get a better purchase on him. The look on the face of the wildebeest was, even to this homo sapiens, sheer terror as he was caught and dragged to his death.

I don't think I'd feel real comfortable bathing in croc-containing waters, tho they say hippos actually kill more people in Africa than anything else.

[SamD]

Wayne,
If you ever come across a 16" Porosus next to your 18' boat while hunting ducks, you'll change your mind.

Sam :D

[CarbineCaleb]

Here are some Gnus getting a wakeup call at water's edge by a hungry croc with bad aim:
http://www.interet-general.info/IMG/crocodile-attack-1.jpg

[Blue Heeler]

.303 Lee Enfield is plenty good enough for crocs. Head shot of course.
Works on Australian crocs anyway.

[big daddy 9mm]

have you guys seen the movie 'lake placid' I would not be surprised to see a huge croc beyond our records that we have now. records show not what exists but what we have seen. the ocean is huuuge. who knows what is out there. :confused: :confused: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Randy in Arizona]

I voted for 300 Winchester Magnum because I have one.

Probably a 7.62 X 39 would do the job too.

[wayneinFL]

What's a Porosus? Are they in NM? All we have around here are alligators and I don't think I've ever seen one over 13' or so. I try to think of them as big green dogs,and don't really mind them as they don't seem to mind me. Again, I get the creeps swimming in freshwater.

Last time I swam in freshwater, it was because I lost the canoe launching it at a boat ramp. Danged thing shot clear over to the other side. I swam across the river, got the canoe, and took the kids canoeing. About a 1/4 mile up the river about an 8 footer came crashing out of the palmettos and dived off the riverbank, FWOOSH maybe 10-15 feet away. I guess we spooked it.

Kids thought it was neat, and I did too, but I might not have thought so had that gator splashed into the river a quarter mile downstream. When I was swimming.

I hear we have some kind of salt water crocodile here, but I have no idea if that's true or not. Maybe those are bigger?

[Capt Charlie]

What's a Porosus?
It's the scientific name for the species Crocodylus porosus, the Salt Water Crocodile.

[Slateman]

Seriously, if liveing carnivore is trying to eat me, I want a freaking rocket launcher.

[shaggypiper]

Best way I think, feed him to death- start off with an attorney appetizer followed by a good helping of Fonda Fondue and then a Hillary Hogie. Works out for everybody the way I see it-except for the crock.

[Hello123]

One way to hunt them is to take a 6 inch treble hook and bait it. With the hook attached to link chain, put the chain around a large limb. Hang the hook about 4 feet over the edge of the bank above the water. When you come upon your gator, shoot it. The height you hang the hook above the wator will determine how big a gator you can get.

[stephen426]

I've been canoeing and tubing around the Gainesville, FL area. We saw a few gators in the 6 foot range while canoeing and that was still pretty scary. Canoes are not the most stable things in the world and a gator could probably tip it pretty easily (especially with the occupants of the canoe all leaning to the other side of the canoe trying to get away!). The funny thing is the tubing area (basically sitting in an inner tube with your keister hanging down as gator bait) was simply fenced off with some kind of plastic mesh to "keep the gators out"! I don't know how much I trust that mesh! I think I'm done with tubing from now on!

[625]

I would use those exploding arrows Rambo used. Either that or I would slingshot a half stick of dynamite near it's head. ;) Blowing stuff up is fun indeed. :D

[CarbineCaleb]

http://www.fotosearch.com/thumb/DVA/DVA003/018-0003.gif

[CarbineCaleb]

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DVA/DVA003/018-0040.mov