Hes got a gun! ... A bb gun... [Archive]

Duxman

July 25, 2005, 04:12 PM

Lets consider the original scenario: You are trapped, no retreat venue, and the BG or "kid" is threatening you with a BB gun that can potentially blind you but most likely would just give you welts.

If I was within foot or hand range I would disarm the BG, and do a citizen's arrest. If not, then I would draw, and not yet point the CC weapon on BG and tell them to disarm - if they fired at me, I would not risk the possibility of potential blindness /disfigurement.

Of course if there is a possibility of retreat, thats not even a question. But certain high velocity .22's can match those of a .22 short / LR. Another post with a police officer who got shot in the neck with a pelletgun - they charged the BG with 2 counts of capital murder. If the state considers this a dangerous weapon - why are we giving the BG a pass?

Q - For Chris and the others that would cover their face....How would you disarm the BG while you cover your face / shield eyes? That would make you blind, and allow BG to fire on you at will.

Q - Would it make a difference to you if the BG was a 25 year old well built male instead of a adolenscent kid? Are you more likely to shoot the BG with the pellet gun if he is a mature druggy mugging you with a BB / pellet gun?

Capt Charlie

July 25, 2005, 04:39 PM

Q - Would it make a difference to you if the BG was a 25 year old well built male instead of a adolenscent kid? Are you more likely to shoot the BG with the pellet gun if he is a mature druggy mugging you with a BB / pellet gun?

Nope. I'm actually a peaceful guy. Don't like to fight. I'm not a martial artist or a boxer, but I had to learn the hard way to street fight. Frankly, if I ran away from this guy screaming like a little girl, I'd never be able to look in a mirror again without disgust. Alternative? Take him out with anything I can EXCEPT lethal force. A kick to the groin, 2x4 to the kneecap, heel of my hand to the nose, thumb in the eye... you get the idea. He may still kick my keister, but he's going to know he was in a fight :mad: .

JN01

July 25, 2005, 05:08 PM

It wouldn't take much "cover" to stop a BB. Duck behind something, then when he's trying to reload, you could take the gun away from him and tell him you'll return it to his daddy.

Since realistically the chances of a BB causing serious harm are pretty small,
if it were an adult attacker, I think I would "tactically retreat" and call a cop rather than to possibly escalate the situation to the point where I would have to use deadly force against him.

stephen426

July 25, 2005, 05:35 PM

I just noticed that the original post made no mention of the shooter's age. I'm sorry if I put a twist on this situation. What if the shooter wasn't a kid? Would you treat the attack as a potentially lethal situation? Unless it was a little kid (early teens or younger), they ought to know better. I don't think I should just tolerate a random act of violance and stupidity. I'm drawing don't on the slimeball! :mad:

yorec

July 25, 2005, 05:48 PM

Only a fool would sit back and try to determine if a weapon was a bb gun or "real" gun while it was being pointed his direction before taking any action. It must be treated as a fully capable firearm unless some other knowledge that it is not is possessed...

So assuming that I somehow know the weapon to be a bb gun - I would act differently in response to the weapon. I'd turn my back on it, hiding my eyes and softer anatomy from the muzzle by means of interjecting my fatty backside and hard skull to the weilder and seek cover at a safer distance...

Then I'd make darn sure that my call to 911 tells them that the weapon is in fact a bb gun, and that I was assaulted/threatened with it and fully expected a response that would take be appropriate for such assault/threats.

Draw on the moron? Maybe, but there is no fast and hard rule, depends on what I "know" about this bb gun...

Slateman

July 25, 2005, 06:12 PM

bb guns isn't worth a head shot. Probably just give them a round in the leg or something :D j/k

First I'd call the police. Then I would probably cover my face and go at him/her. I've played quite a but of paintball. The bb's wouldn't hurt that much. The only thing I'd be careful of, is to not hurt the kid unreasonably. I don't want the police to show up and have me wailing on him/her.

Rich636

July 25, 2005, 06:28 PM

No offense to the OP but sometimes I don't know whether some of these scenarios are meant to be jokes or serious.

Edit: Carry a concealed BB pistol as well :)

joab

July 25, 2005, 06:28 PM

Pick up some good sized rocks and throw them at him, and yell "nanny nanny boo-boo ,
stick your head in doo-doo".

Either that or explain to him that your gun shoots real bullets and when the cops get here all I gotta do is swear that I thought your's was real

My spell checker just told me that boo-boo was a real word but doo-doo wasn't.
Just saying

Dwight55

July 25, 2005, 07:14 PM

Well, now I ain't exactly nearsighted, . . . nor blind, . . . but unless the little brat already shot it at me, . . . I can't think of any way I would know for sure that it was a BB gun. Most probably about the time it started to level on me the first time (if I saw it before he shot me) there is a real chance he would have heard the safety go off on my .45, . . . and depending on what he did then, . . . that just may be the last sound his ears would ever register.

Most BB guns today, . . . do not look like BB guns, . . . they look like a 1911 or a Beretta 92 among others, . . . and I don't carry my calipers to do a muzzle diameter check before I start unshucking my 1911.

Now if it is a little kid, . . . he's going to get some slack, . . . because I can play the odds that he doesn't know how to use it if it is real, . . . but if the shooter is 5 feet tall or so, . . . got a dirtly little beard, . . . speaking dispickable words, . . . and pointing a piece at me: I ain't taking time to see the size of the hole, . . . and when he sees mine, . . . maybe it will all quit before he goes permanently horizontal.

May God bless,
Dwight

PythonGuy

July 25, 2005, 07:50 PM

I love Dwight55 posts,

"I'll shoot em, skin em, send the little bastards to hell, specially them dirty bearded ones dad gummit. Thanks and god bless you all."

hahahahaha, reverend punisher :D
kill em all and let god sort em out. May god bless

JohnKSa

July 25, 2005, 08:39 PM

What do you do if someone has a bb gun trained on you or already fired shots? You know its a bb gun because of the report, profile, and/or prior knowledge.Be careful about judging a firearm by its report. Auditory exclusion may fool you. And then, there are always silenced weapons...

Furthermore, there are "bb guns" out there that are virtually identical to well-known firearms. Some that take actual handling or very close examination to make sure.

Just saying that you could end up dead by second-guessing the situation when immediate action was called for.

jeff_troop

July 25, 2005, 09:34 PM

when i was 11 a bunch of us were in the woods having bb gun wars. hitting each other in the legs etc. from behind trees. when we had to go home for supper one of the kids put his rifle, one of the old red rider types, to his chest and fired it to prove it wasn't loaded. the bb went straight to his heart and he died before his mom even showed up. my stomach still knots up thinking about it.

this was just a plain old $10 lever action. but i guess beign young with soft hide and only wearing a t-shirt allowed the bb to penetrate deep enough.

Spoon2001

July 25, 2005, 10:27 PM

A) If it is an adult (or looks old enough to be an adult), I'd respond with deadly force. Anyone pointing a weapon of any type, be it an RPG or BB gun, is threatining me, and I will do what is necessary to protect myself.

B) If the shooter is a kid, I'd get to him as quickly as I could and.... make it so he couldn't shoot me anymore.

In either situation, the police would be called, but that's obviously a given...

twelve56

July 25, 2005, 11:00 PM

I like to think that if this was a just world, somebody that pulled stupid **** like shooting at people with a BB gun would be whipped or buttstroked with it a couple times and then everybody would go about their business.

KP345PR

July 25, 2005, 11:44 PM

Here in denver, there was a situation that i can relate to the subject.

A guy in his mid 20's had his car stolen. Drove around and tried to find the guys, and actually did. He jumped out of the car and pulled a BB gun to the driver's head at an intersection, and a nearby civilian called the police. The guy who had the BB gun was promptly arrested on 2 counts of felony menacing with a deadly weapon, and the car thieves got misdemeanors.

Now, honestly if i was in the civilian who called 911's shoes, and saw some random guy speed off into an intersection, jump out of the car, and wave what looked like a gun around and point it at somebody's head, my reaction may have been a bit more drastic than calling 911.

Twycross

July 26, 2005, 12:55 AM

If I know that it is a BB gun, then I would probably try to take him down with less-than-lethal force, in my case, martial arts. I don't think that a BB gun justifies lethal force. This is, however, highly dependant on circumstances. If you are 30 yards away, pointing a BB pistol at me, that is one thing. If you have a BB rifle at the base of the skull of someone I love, that is quite another.

jeff_troop

July 26, 2005, 01:44 AM

most bb rifles are easy to identify. pistols are a whole nuther story though. those rascals look real!

my question is......what about a pellet rifle? now you are talking something that will get 600-1000 fps and that is just what wal mart has!

Stiletto

July 26, 2005, 02:24 AM

Someone else clears a gun on you, in a dark space, the appropriate response is to draw and fire.

If it was a pellet gun, well, it's not your fault the other guy committed suicide-by-proxy.

Mad Cow

July 26, 2005, 02:27 AM

I would try to do the same as Spoon2001 BB guns can be vary dangerous.

Site slow to load
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/01/health/main652543.shtml

USSF

July 26, 2005, 02:45 AM

Extreme case, but there are 50 caliber air guns out there that shoot 275 gr. pellets around 700+ fps. Pretty powerful airgun. lol

GunnyBob

July 26, 2005, 03:12 AM

Tongue into cheek mode. Dangerous indeed. Aren't bb's used to calibrate ballistic gelatin, and don't they penetrate somewhere along the lines of 4"...

4" is nothing to sneeze at. Head on, hit upper COM, ballistic tests would appear to indicate a potential one shot stop.

Got Lead?

July 26, 2005, 09:04 AM

No offense to the OP but sometimes I don't know whether some of these scenarios are meant to be jokes or serious.

Neither of both :) It was just a random thought that slipped down to my fingers during some down time at work.

Got Lead?

July 26, 2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:
What do you do if someone has a bb gun trained on you or already fired shots? You know its a bb gun because of the report, profile, and/or prior knowledge.
Be careful about judging a firearm by its report. Auditory exclusion may fool you. And then, there are always silenced weapons...

Furthermore, there are "bb guns" out there that are virtually identical to well-known firearms. Some that take actual handling or very close examination to make sure.

Just saying that you could end up dead by second-guessing the situation when immediate action was called for.

Just using it to build the scene. You just know its a bb gun.

Clayfish

July 26, 2005, 09:32 AM

don't forget the .17 hmr. there are lot's of pistols chambered for it and they can be mistaken for a bb gun... untill they go off. And there is the super colobri .22 ammo that sounds just like a bb gun. It uses just the primer to shoot a 20 grain bullet at 800 fps. Hey, i'd protect my self whatever way I had too and if they were an adult they would be shot.

Superhornet

July 26, 2005, 10:05 AM

Bang, bang........sorry, I did not know it was just a BB gun.

Glenn E. Meyer

July 26, 2005, 10:43 AM

If you search a medical database you can come up with lots of bad things from airguns. Thus, if someone was shooting at you with truly malicious intent, and they weren't a young child, you could probably justify a lethal reply.

joab

July 26, 2005, 07:20 PM

you could probably justify a lethal reply. Could you justify it to yourself.

As GotLead stated you know that it's a BB gun, not some subcaliber firearm or super lethal air gun or airgun lookalike real gun
Just a simple ordinary run of the mill BB gun capable of inflicting serious irritation at best.

Could you shoot, even though with the proper lies in the proper tone you could get away with it

Rich636

July 26, 2005, 09:31 PM

Counter attack with Potato Gun. I would start with some new red potatos and switch to Russets or Idahos depending if the threat level escalated.

Glenn E. Meyer

July 28, 2005, 10:49 AM

Justify it to yourself? That's your problem. If someone over the age of a small child is repeated shooting a BB gun at you with malicious intent, of course you can flee and take rounds in the back, butt and back of the head, etc. You can duke it out.

You have the whole force continuum. If you think it will do grievous bodily harm as such guns have done - decide what to do.

Most people don't die of gunshots anyway if they get to a trauma center.

joab

July 28, 2005, 05:36 PM

Justify it to yourself? That's your problem. No, actually that's my question to you.
I already know that I could not justify shooting someone with a BB gun, so I wouldn't do it.

My question was to all the people here who seem to be trying to think of a good excuse to shoot someone with a BB gun.

Do you honestly think that you could justify using deadly force against someone with a BB gun.

Notice I said justify not rationalize

3 weelin geezer

July 28, 2005, 10:20 PM

Hey, joab. I have a better taunt. lets see if I can type it to sound right: Ok, here goes...Kzehna, kzehna..pauteetah paula gehnah. and dance around like a football player after a touch down slapping my butt and grabbing my junk like michael jackson on stage.

I say if you just know its a bb gun, what the hell are you just standing around for? Get some police backup to confront him and haul him to jail instead of you. I also have to disagree that bb guns dont hurt/injure. Just because they use air to send that pellet down the barrel is not important. Therefore, lethal force should be allowed in some situations. If you don't shoot, you can always say 'i'm sorry'. My .22 daisy air rifle can take out a bird's head at 60 yds or so with pinpoint accuracy in the hands of my brother just as easy as a .22lr. I have taken a couple of feral cats with it myself.

Glenn E. Meyer

July 29, 2005, 09:03 AM

Joab.

Justify - if one knows what they are talking about, the justification of the use of deadly force is the prevention of grievous bodily harm.

If one knows what they are talking about, one can find that BB guns, varying in type, are capable of producing serious injuries. Search the medical literature - it is easy to do at the library.

Thus, if someone is shooting at you maliciously with a BB gun, you have justification. If you choose another strategy, that is your decision.

In any situation, avoidance is better than gun fire - however, if it comes down to you being hit with the BBs, then you have justification.

That is simple enough to understand. The comment that folks want an excuse to shoot someone is rather stupid, BTW. That's your projection and attempt at cheap rhetoric.

XavierBreath

July 29, 2005, 09:31 AM

In the last BB gun thread... ;) I cited several cases where the use of a BB gun resulted in charges of assault with a deadly weapon.

Link #1 (http://www.modelminority.com/article1020.html) Link #2 (http://www.sfexaminer.com/articles/2005/05/20/peninsula/20050520_pe05_bb.txt)

Now....... if the BB gun is legally a "deadly weapon", then is not deadly force legally justified when faced with someone who is maliciously employing it?

joab

July 29, 2005, 02:34 PM

The comment that folks want an excuse to shoot someone is rather stupid, BTW. That's your projection and attempt at cheap rhetoric.however, if it comes down to you being hit with the BBs, then you have justification.
I'm stupid but your the one trying to rationalize shooting someone over a BB gun.

BTW if you are incapable of carrying on a conversation without resorting to THR name calling don't bother to respond.

spacemanspiff

July 29, 2005, 02:38 PM

pshawwww! two words: Slide Lock.

:rolleyes:

i think its my turn to come up with an absurd tactics thread.

Para Bellum

July 29, 2005, 02:59 PM

BB gun huh? Frankly, I'd be so damned mad that I'd cover my face, advance, engage physically, and put that gun where the sun don't shine!
exactly. Protect your eyes, close in and kick his shin (or whatever). That should do. I can't imagine drawing a firearm against anything that can't be lethal. Don't even think about it.

I would try to do the same as Spoon2001 BB guns can be vary dangerous.
An empty hand is way more dangerous than a hand with a BB gun.

Whitefalls

July 29, 2005, 03:32 PM

I dont know that I'd immediately gun the sucker down... kinda depends on the situation, but I'd hardly say a BB gun can't be lethal... not to mention advancing on the person only makes the BB gun even more dangerous to you.

I'd prefer to just get away from them and have him arrested for assault with a deadly weapon... or wait until he is reloading his bb gun and beat the tar out of him.

k_dawg

July 29, 2005, 03:42 PM

I am not an expert on "bb guns". If it looks remotely like an actual gun, I would treat it like one. That is what LEO's do as well.

Glenn E. Meyer

July 29, 2005, 04:31 PM

I wouldn't suggest going hand to hand as then the dude can just take the Daisy rifle and club you right in your head.

If I were shooting BBs at you (for whatever reason) and then you wanted to duke it out - you are going to get quite the beating.

Flee in terror if you must but you are actually moving up the force continuum if you make it a physical fight.

As far as you Joab, report this thread to the list gods. You said we wanted to have an excuse to shoot people. I still regard that as you trolling and responded appropriately.

It's clear that you don't understand the word 'rationalize' or the efficacy of some airguns. It has been pointed out that airguns or BB guns can be dangerous and if used maliciously they can produce grievous bodily harm.

So respond to that beyond saying "BB gun" again.

I'll do a scenario:

You and your wife are walking down a hiking trail. Two 17 year oldish boys start following and harassing you. They both have Daisy air guns. They started repeatedly shooting at you despite your pleas to stop. You have already taken a BB in the throat and in the cheek near your eye. Your wife has been shot twice in her butt. They have guns that hold tens of BBs. You are rather old to just run or duke it out. The guns outrange your OC spray. The police are 10 minutes away for your cell phone call.

Your move, tiger.

joab

July 29, 2005, 11:05 PM

As far as you Joab, report this thread to the list gods. You said we wanted to have an excuse to shoot people. I still regard that as you trolling and responded appropriately. I see Glen, I ask a uncomfortable question that you can't answer so you call me a stupid troll and make up some asinine scenario to justify your blood lust.

Here's one for you to rationalize away Deadly egg thrower meets street justice (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177106) You don't own a red Ford PU do you?.

You said we wanted to have an excuse to shoot people My question was directed to those that seem to be looking for an excuse, I guess you feel you fit into that category, or you just don't read as well as you catcall. Or possibly you just like inane confrontationsMy question was to all the people here who seem to be trying to think of a good excuse to shoot someone with a BB gun.

Since I don't come here to get into inane little name calling and it is obvious that you are indeed incapable of doing otherwise I'll just put you on the ignore list

3 weelin geezer

July 29, 2005, 11:17 PM

Don't shotguns use 'bb' size pellets too? Or is it just the launcher that everyone is concerned with (shotgun vs bb gun )
?

Whitefalls

July 30, 2005, 02:40 PM

Your comparing a BB gun to eggs is what I find odd... since a BB gun is considered a deadly weapon and an egg is not. If the kid was throwing BBs at me I wouldn't have a problem... and if the eggs were being shot out of a gun it would be a bit different than throwing them. I'm just amazed that you compare kids throwing eggs to kids shooting weapons.

I guess you don't care about all the links that have been posted where BB guns killed people.

joab

July 30, 2005, 03:14 PM

I guess you don't care about all the links that have been posted where BB guns killed people. Between 1990 and 2000, air guns caused an average of four deaths annually, mostly to children younger than 15. (http://halife.com/news/quickies/beware_new_bb_guns.html) Hardly an epidemic

Your comparing a BB gun to eggs is what I find odd I did not compare BBs to eggs, I compared eggs thrown at moving vehicles to BBs being shot at you.

I was hit in the face once by a wadded up piece of paper thrown from a school bus and almost took out the next lane of traffic, the kid was charged with throwing a missile at occupied vehicle, a felony.

Since they are both considered felonious assaults why is there a problem with the analogy

Whitefalls

July 30, 2005, 03:57 PM

Did you even read the article you linked to that says todays BB guns shoot around the same velocity as a .22 rifle? I guess all the people who would respond to an attacker armed with a .22 rifle are also just looking for an excuse to shoot someone. Those sick bastards. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying to gun down everyone with a BB gun... I'm merely point out that saying people in this thread are just looking for an excuse to kill someone is a bit extreme, and uncalled for.

joab

July 30, 2005, 04:10 PM

I'm merely point out that saying people in this thread are just looking for an excuse to kill someone is a bit extreme, and uncalled for. Read my posts again I did not say that all the people here were looking for an excuse. If you are not one of them, then you should have no gripe.

My question was simply if you could justify to yourself, as opposed to getting away with it in court, shooting someone with a BB gun.
If not for the somewhat condescending nonresponse I got from the original question, I probably would not have made the second comment

If you are one of those that feel that they could justify shooting a real gun against a BB gun fine. I don't think I could.
If that somehow makes me your enemy, so be it.
I'll be happy to discuss it with you but I refuse to get in a ******* match over it.

BTW those .22 velocity BB guns are usually rifles and not (fast) repeaters. They have to be pumped several times or loaded one BB at a time after being broken in the middle or a lever activated.
At least the ones I've seen.

Whitefalls

July 30, 2005, 04:33 PM

Never said you were my enemy. Perhaps I misinterpreted the intentions behind your post, and if that's the case, then my apologies.

BLiTTz

August 5, 2006, 06:25 PM

I'm glad that I stumbled onto this site and this old thread. I got somethin to say.

I'm a 28 year old Black man who use to get into trouble cause accordin to the city's shrinks, I'm "Borderline" psychotic and bipolar. I have been under treatment for years now, and I'm glad. I'm also glad I sold my illegal real steel .38 Army Issue Revolver and my chrome .32 when I needed money, before I got on a mental health program.

I live in Chicago around the Humboldt Park neighborhood. on the West side of my block is a crackhouse with 9 or 10 gangstas standing sellin rocks. On the opposite end is gangstas who are under them (smaller crew).

A few blocks away theres a crew of kids maybe 10-19 who use BB guns and realsteel firearms interchangeably, and so do 2 other gangs that are allied w/ them.

In movies like DOOM, Resident Evil2 and Terminator 3, you probably didnt notice that Arnold was wearin platform boots, let alone did you notice when an Airsoft gun was on screen.

If some kid pulls somethin that looks like real steel on you, assume it is. For the "older" (no offense) cats on here, they even still use zip guns where I live...so nobody's goin overboard. The gang membership is goin up, and broke kids are buyin .22s and Airguns.

I only registered to say that. stay safe.

BLiTTz

August 5, 2006, 06:30 PM

one more thing:

http://www.chicagogangs.org/

Enter the site. Then go to "OldSchool" gangs (that just means they been around for a while.
if you click on any gang link, you will see where it says "Pictures" in the upper left hand.

Try and guess which guns are real and which ones are Airguns. The only BB gun I would bet money on is the pics for "Renegade Outlawz"

once again. if you got a family, dont hesitate because you THINK it's fake. peace.

Dreadnought

August 5, 2006, 06:58 PM

Doesn't matter if it is a weak gun or a high-power air rifle, you don't know what it could be. In a badly lit area, which of these would you think is real?
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g129/Silver_Bullet_photos/P1010052.jpg

My daisy powerline is advertised at 1000fps. It looks like a real rifle and some of my friends got scared when they came to my apt. and saw it trigger-locked in my closet. I don't have any doubt that a shot through the eye just might kill a person.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g129/Silver_Bullet_photos/Range%20Trip%2007252006/P1010032.jpg
I'm drawing, regardless. Don't be a pr1ck and point a gun at someone and not expect to possibly get dead whether you're a "kid" or not.

OneInTheChamber

August 5, 2006, 08:28 PM

I don't know many perp's who will stare down the barrel of real gun and still point a bb gun at you.

But otherwise:

Unless it was obviously, and I mean bet my life on it obvious (literally) a bb gun, he's getting shot immediately.

I don't want to get shot with a CO2 pellet gun anymore than I don't want to get shot with a .22 anymore than I don't want to get shot with a .45......

I have the right to defend myself when a weapon is being pointed at me.

I shouldn't have to risk my life because some punk wants to inflict a felony on me.

I shouldn't have to bet my life on whether its a toy or not.

He got himself into this mess, not me.

Capt Charlie

August 5, 2006, 08:29 PM

Welcome to The Firing Line, BLiTTz! Thanks for the input.

I only registered to say that. stay safe.
Stick around! I suspect that you have a wealth of unique information that would be valuable to the Members here. :)

atlctyslkr

August 6, 2006, 10:15 AM

Someone threatening you with a BB gun is threatening you with bodily harm. Handle accordingly.

Erick Gelhaus

August 6, 2006, 11:26 AM

It's going to come down to YOUR ability to articulate to law enforcement and very likely the Court that you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury.

I think we keep coming back to this, articulation - your ability to explain why - will be quite significant.

azurefly

August 6, 2006, 05:29 PM

I'm not going to let someone blind me with a bb to the eye and just sit back.

This is a hard call though as the most likely incident will occur with some stupid kids playing around. I would call the cops for sure though and have the kid charged.

Roger, a-firm. That's exactly what I was thinking.

It also occurs to me that if you were to shoot a kid, quite righteously, who had fired a bb gun at you (it certainly qualifies as threat of grievous bodily harm, unless some idiot thinks losing an EYE would be no big thing), whether you are in an anti-gun area or not, the press is gonna skewer you, and the headlines will read, "Man responds with real gun, kills kid with fake gun" and worse. :(

-azurefly

joab

August 6, 2006, 11:46 PM

It also occurs to me that if you were to shoot a kid, quite righteously, who had fired a bb gun at you"I had to shoot, he could'a put an eye out with that thing"
It's only going to work if Ralphie's mother is the jury foreman and can sway the others

azurefly

August 6, 2006, 11:58 PM

That's just an absurd statement.

If the law says that you are justified in shooting (using deadly physical force, that is) when confronted with actions that a reasonable person believes may cause grievous physical injury (having an eye destroyed with a bb would count) or death (which could happen, too), then a jury would be instructed to make a finding of not-guilty if that area of the law had been met.

It's that simple.

You can make all the juvenile allusions to "an official Red Ryder carbine-action 200 shot range model air rifle with a compass in the stock and this thing that tells time" all you want, but you are just robbing yourself of more and more credibility here, Joab.

This is about the potential for modern air rifles and air pistols to cause grievous bodily harm; and the fact that in most jurisdictions, it is legal to meet such threat of harm with deadly force in order to stop it.

-azurefly

razorburn

August 7, 2006, 12:40 AM

I would not draw on a bb-gun wielding person, if I knew for a fact that it was a bb gun. The power level of any gun that shoots bbs is ridiculously low and would be unlikely to penetrate your clothes, much less do serious damage to you. Even the pellet rifles which advertise shooting 1000fps, only do so with a tiny superlight pellet with less than a tiny fraction of what a .22lr bullet weighs, weighing about 4-5 grains. A rock thrown by hand is much more dangerous and powerful. A 1000fps .177 air rifle's power compares to even a lowly .22lr like a 9mm pistol compares to a .300winchester magnum rifle.

When I was a teen, I had air rifles which are considered "magnum" class by the airgun community. A .22 cal MAC-1 Steroid 392 launching 14 gr pellets at 900+ fps and a rws 94 advertised at 1000fps in .177 and 850 in .22. Both failed to penetrate 1" of cheap composite wood plank. I measured it out at just over 1/2" of penetration in wood.

I do not care that authorities will charge someone with "deadly weapon" when threatening others with a bb gun. They may also consider fingernail clippers on a plane to be a "deadly weapon", but for me, that does not justify me drawing on Granny Maple for waving one around and threatening to pinch me with one.

As for dreadnought's pics, the one on the right is easily ID'd as a bb gun because of that silly little rod thing on the bottom, and the rifle is obviously a pellet gun because of the huge break barrel/spring compressing mechanism at the end of the stock. Non-gun people get scared when they see a black squirt gun. However, if I could not easily id something as an air gun, I would definately draw. Otherwise, it's cover my face-break toy gun-kick butt time.

azurefly

August 7, 2006, 01:12 AM

I would not draw on a bb-gun wielding person, if I knew for a fact that it was a bb gun.

It has been made clear that this very thing may be impossible to determine. Do you have Superman vision? :rolleyes:

The power level of any gun that shoots bbs is ridiculously low and would be unlikely to penetrate your clothes, much less do serious damage to you.

Honestly, what planet are people from who argue that "any gun that shoots BBs" can't do any damage to you?! :rolleyes: Do you realize how absurd that hyper-generalization is??

I'd like you to maybe indicate your willingness to stand five feet away while I aim even one of those crappy spring-loaded Marksman "1911s" at your eye. You don't think that even a BB at, say, 200 fps could damage your eye?! Now take a Daisy 881 pumped 10 or so times, alleged to make over 800 fps. Do you honestly think that this is all about whether it can go through your shirt, sweatshirt, and leather winter jacket?! How in the world do you know that the shot won't be at your throat, mouth, eye? And you believe that there is NO gun that fires BBs that could do more than make an annoying little welt? :rolleyes:

When I was a teen, I had air rifles which are considered "magnum" class by the airgun community. A .22 cal MAC-1 Steroid 392 launching 14 gr pellets at 900+ fps and a rws 94 advertised at 1000fps in .177 and 850 in .22. Both failed to penetrate 1" of cheap composite wood plank. I measured it out at just over 1/2" of penetration in wood.

So, it failed to penetrate 1" of wood, so that means it's just totally incapable of rupturing an eyeball, yeah? :rolleyes:

I do not care that authorities will charge someone with "deadly weapon" when threatening others with a bb gun. They may also consider fingernail clippers on a plane to be a "deadly weapon."

The fact that they have slapped "prohibited" onto nail clippers does not mean that your hyperbole is a valid argument. The one has nothing to do with the other, unless you want to conveniently ignore that people HAVE lost eyes to BB guns, and they HAVE even caused death!

As for dreadnought's pics, the one on the right is easily ID'd as a bb gun because of that silly little rod thing on the bottom.

Is this more of the Superman vision?

What about if the gun is held in a hand with a really big sleeve, like on a winter jacket (similar to the BB-proof one you'll be wearing), or if it's a low-light situation?

Really, I just don't understand why so many people are just disavowing the notion that a BB gun can cause substantial enough injury to warrant deadly force. C'mon, people, the law puts you in the clear with the wording "grievous physical harm." Other laws talk about "lasting injury or loss of function of a body part or organ."

How many of you would want to be blinded because you did not want to meet force with force, because you thought it was unseemly to shoot someone who had "only" a BB gun? I am not saying you have to necessarily shoot, even -- but some are saying they would not even draw! I'm sorry, but I am a pilot and a skydiver and I am NOT going to leave myself open to losing the ability to do those things just because "it's only a BB gun." I may not know that it's "only" a BB gun, first of all; and even if I did know, I'd give the attacker (he IS an attacker, after all) ONE SHORT CHANCE to give it up (and I'm going home with the BB gun, or to the police, btw) with my weapon drawn. And the funny thing is, no one would ever have to know if I really did know it was a BB gun or not. A fool would admit, "Yeah, I drew knowing it was a BB gun." A wise person would say, "How would you like to be in that situation and not be sure, and then have someone second-guess you, officer? I couldn't be sure, and I thought it sure looked like a real gun, so I protected myself."

-azurefly
-azurefly

joab

August 7, 2006, 09:59 AM

Tell you what azurefly
You try to convince a jury that you had to shoot a kid with what you knew was a BB gun (check the original post, if you can see to read it from your high horse) because you thought he could put an eye out and see who comes up sounding juvenile.
Right now you sound like a hundred other pseudo he-men desperately seeking a reason to shoot someone.

buzz_knox

August 7, 2006, 10:24 AM

"I had to shoot, he could'a put an eye out with that thing"
It's only going to work if Ralphie's mother is the jury foreman and can sway the others

Deadly force is authorized when there is an immediate and unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent. Loss of an eye constitutes grave bodily harm in pretty much every jurisdiction, so you should be able to get a jury instruction on the point and in your favor.

Or maybe you can tell the jury that the impact of a high velocity projectile (to wit, a BB) onto one of the few unarmored portions of a human skull can actually cause death. But let's not let facts get in the way of a tirade, right?

joab

August 7, 2006, 10:32 AM

And lets not let common sense get in the way of a good excuse for your blood lust.

Either this thread is full of youngsters that can't remember pre- paintbal BB gun wars, old pansies who were always on the losing side of those wars or macho men looking for a reason to shoot someone.

Doug.38PR

August 7, 2006, 10:46 AM

shielding my eyes. Run up to that fellow, beat him into submission, take his "toy" and smash it on the sidewalk. Call the police.

buzz_knox

August 7, 2006, 11:01 AM

On second thought, it's not worth it.

Epyon

August 7, 2006, 11:07 AM

If I somehow KNEW the person had a BB gun? Depends, if it's a kid I'll shield myself and try to take it away from the little punk and call the cops. If I'm walking at night and the "kid" is just some idiot high schooler or 20 something year old drawing on me, I'd be more inclined to shoot first and ask questions later if I didn't know it was a BB gun. I have played with airsofts and such before, fun when you're with friends and everyone KNOWS they are not real however many of them do LOOK, FEEL, AND MOVE JUST LIKE THEIR REAL COUNTERPARTS!! This thread reminds me of a shooting that happened in the middle school I went to years ago, for those who don't know there was a kid recently who took an airsoft gun to Millwee Middle and the airsoft looked like a real gun. The kid was holed up in a restroom, and officers shot the boy. There was huge public outcry, some defending the officer's decision, and others condemning the shooting.

Epyon

P.S: I've got a thread posted in reaction to this thread.