What to do if you catch car crook?

[cosmolinelover]

For the past 4 years I have watched while my town has become a haven for criminals and criminal activity. For 4 years I have watched while the police do less and less to protect the innocent, and do more and more to encourage us not to protect ourselves at the same time. I had to move to a different neighborhood because I could no longer afford to replace my car windows or stereos when broken or stolen.

Yet, the situation hasn't changed now that I've moved. I was ignorant to think it would. The police have no interest in property crime of any sort, even if its armed robbery. It just isn't they're deal anymore I'm sad to say.

But you know what? Strike all that.... Lets not get political here (although we should)... I need some advice from you guys...... ahem...

What should I do to prevent/stop/deter people from breaking car windows all over the place whenever they like? My roommate left town recently and his buddy also had to leave his car in front of my place. I only have a 2 car garage so I was unable to completely secure his buddies car, but I did leave it in the driveway. Yet some as*hole broke the back windshield out of it 5 days ago, and apparently only for sh*ts and grins. Because they didn't even attempt to steal anything. I left my house today to go to work, and some one had come back and smashed another window out of the car last night. On my way to work I noticed a series of smashed windows in the neighborhood... and frankly its nothing new here in Albuquerque. Sure, "call the cops"... sorry... that answer is old and doens't solve anything.

And here's my dilemma, if I were to actually hear this occuring and go outfront to check it out, I'm left with very limited options as to deal with to situation. Unless the person is actually advancing towards me and threatening me to some extent, I am legally not allowed to kill the son of a b*tch, even though I am watching him commit a felony.

So my question is this, what would you guys do? You hear a bump in the night, go outside, and there's some piece of scum going through your belongings in your car. If he has a crowbar in his hand, then, feel free to blast the bastard. However, if he decides to just run off into the distance with your belongings, you are NOT allowed to use force to stop him.

My marine buddy always wants to have "stakeouts" catch these guys... but the reality is we'd probably become "criminals" for doing so. I've been looking into the taser system, becuase at least then I can stop someone without gettin in trouble for shootin them. Any thoughts.?

[azspyder]

I suppose you could make a citizen's arrest using a firearm if they are committing a felony. But that's very problematic and could lead to big legal troubles. I'd seriously consider "getting out of Dodge"

[JohnKSa]

Video camera.

[clt46910]

I would use a pepper spray with a UV in it in my left hand and a gun in my right hand. The spray to stop him, the UV to mark him and the gun to protect yourself if he is dumb enough to not understand he has already lost the fight.

[big daddy 9mm]

I would want to steakout but you are probably right as far as getting into trouble that way. the spray sounds like a good idea. maybe once you spray him he will not come back. I would probably go with the video camera, that way you would have proof that the police could persue. ??? :) :)

[FrankDrebin]

You sure it's a felony? They recently raised the threshold for felony Malicious Destruction of Property where I live....I think it's $1000.00 now. Better get an estimate before you put your hands on anyone. I'd move if it's that bad.

[RWK]

I would first check with a good attorney – and with a local or state prosecutor, if they will take the time to talk with you – to ascertain what is legal. Based on that information, I would frame options.

You may want to consider a large, loud dog. Even if he would never harm anyone, it is my observation he would likely cause the criminals to go elsewhere.

[clt46910]

I like the large loud dog option...

[Trapp]

I like the Steakout, Though I prefer Steak in........I give a vote for a Pepper Stakeout.....That would be an absolute riot!.....Just don't have too many beers.......

[clt46910]

You are talking a loud dog with guns and steak? Does it get any better?....LOL

[clt46910]

Ok, I am at my beer limit...LOL

[cosmolinelover]

Well the problem with moving is I've already moved. I got a place with a 2 car garage to protect against this form of crime, but its disgusting that even those visiting me are subjected to this sort of immoral crime just because their cars are not locked up 100% of the time. And the sad fact is that on a bi-weekly basis at least one of my buddies experiences a similar occurence. And its not just limited to my neighborhood, I have personal accounts from numerous friends and aquaintances of similar situations occuring regularly in this town. These people seem to roam freely throughout Albuquerque, and there is nothing done to stop them. I learned real quickly not to "bother" the police when an officer filing a report for me (about a year ago) laughed out loud when I asked if they do anything about this sort of crime.

Video camera? Well, I've thought of that, It'd have to be pretty visible in order to catch any worthwhile shots of the scum, and I'd probably have to get a nightvision model if I wanted to catch the car they were (probably) in on the street.... however the thought has crossed my mind... I could conceal it perhaps, but I just don't have the monetary endowment to afford such equipment.

The larger problem is clearly the lack of punishment and enforcement for this type of crime, and the sad truth is that as long as we allow these "common" property theives to continue to "work", they WILL become more and more brazen, eventually moving onto homes, and sooner or later someone will be home and then we have a potential life and death situation on our hands.

But I suppose I need to start small... perhaps I can get some type of camera. If and when I catch these people in the act though, (which at the rate it occurs here is bound to happen) I really am worried how to deal with the situation.

Pepper spray is a great idea CLT, however if it merely serves to **** him off and make him run away, I would fear reprisals unless I could get him controlled and off to jail (although the reality is he wouldn't serve much time anyway). But I think I"m gonna buy a bottle just to be sure.

I'm trying to understand Less than Lethal options and their legalities... and am currently pondering a Taser (the real kind that shoot out those darts), or perhaps maybe beanbag rounds for my shotgun. Any suggestions?

[claude783]

Was having the same problem. So, purchased a cctv from Fry's electronics, hooked it up to a vhs.

Now, with the camera watching the driveway, the problems seem to have ceased. They don't want their pictures taken for some reason.

I can imagine the neighborhood if someone were to video tape the "gremlins", then made a photo of them breaking into a car...now let all the neighbors know who the "gremlin" is. Having 100 irate homeowners out with baseball bats makes for a secure neighborhood!

[FrankDrebin]

I'm trying to understand Less than Lethal options and their legalities... and am currently pondering a Taser (the real kind that shoot out those darts), or perhaps maybe beanbag rounds for my shotgun. Any suggestions?

Yeah....don't.......unless you have the financial resources of a decent sized municipal government to back you up when you get sued. They don't really call them "less than lethal" much anymore. Most places say "less lethal" and that's for a good reason.

[cosmolinelover]

well they've gotta be "less lethal" than just shootin them with a regular FMJ. right? maybe? There has to be some option out there for us to thwart this kind of crime without the legal repercussions of actually killing someone.

[FrankDrebin]

Yeah, "less" lethal, not "non" lethal. Shoot a guy for maliciously damaging your property with a weapon that even the police acknowledge CAN be lethal and see what happens to you and/or your bank account. I'd move again if it's that big of a problem and you can afford it.

[BillCA]

I'm sorry to hear that Albquerque is like that. I'll be passing thru next weekend on the way to Santa Fe on business.

You can also get motion detector lights installed over your garage or near the front of your house that will come one when people come past the house. Most of these have some kind of sensitivity adustment and some can be used in place of the standard single/dual floodlight units. Setting it so that anyone on the sidewalk activates the light may deter the thugs for a while, after which you can reset the unit to activate only on the walk/driveway.

If possible, have visitors park in your driveway, protected by the lights and also requiring a criminal tresspass to B&E the car.

Getting sort of "neighborhood watch" together with people who have cameras or video gear might help. Turned over to the cops, especially with plate numbers and/or facial photos should give them something to follow up.

[cosmolinelover]

Thanks for the tip BillCA, interestingly enough, I already do have motion detector flood lights in the front of the house. They don't seem to deter much, even the wind when it sets them off.

Well don't let albuquerque ruin your New Mexico experience BillCA, Santa Fe is a great place (grew up there) and you'll enjoy seeing all the sights. We've got great forests, deserts, mountains, and you name it terrain to explore and enjoy. And I love new mexico, its my home. I just don't like those who've taken up residence here too.

And FrankDrebin, I appreciate your candor and I do understand what you're talking about. But there has just got to be a way to defend what is ours without going to jail. There's a company called pepperball technologies that has 12 gauge rounds that claim (all of the reviews I've read so far imply the same--- but that could always change) true less-than-lethal cabalility. Its basically a ball of synthetic pepperspray that incapacitates the suspect, and allows you to be a reasonable distance away while doing it. (the problem with pepper spray is of course the wind blowing it back in your face) But in true form, its not available to "civilians" yet.

[cosmolinelover]

Oh, and Frank, unfortunately being a 23 year old college kid I can't afford to move (again)... although when I finish school I'm thinkin it may be time to get the hell outta dodge. I never had this problem in Santa Fe. But until then, its a moot point, cuz I'm stuck where I am for awhile.

[FrankDrebin]

Too bad...I didn't think Albquerque was like that. As far as the pepper ball thing, 12 gauge seems awefully big.....We use a paintball type gun with pepperballs of the same size as paintballs, and that's plenty effective, although I wouldn't suggest that either. You start shooting things at some wacko bent on destruction and he might just pull a real gun and start blasting back. Then, depending on certain variables, it looks like you escalated the whole situation by the time the special interest groups get involved. Think; "The Bonfire of the Vanities".

[cosmolinelover]

any LEO's have an opinion? your insight would be greatly appreciated.

[cosmolinelover]

I hear you there Frank, I assume everyone I encounter is armed no matter what. Especially those whom are hell bent on doing wrong to those around them. If things were different, and the political environment allowed it, I'd be the first the say "just shoot the bastard" and end it there, whether he's armed, or not, doens't really matter, he's still commiting a bad crime and wronging me to the point that I can't afford to undo it. However... we know this is no longer the case in this country.

So I guess we're back to square one, don't shoot him with real bullets, don't shoot him with less lethal stuff, and just let him get away with it. We've gotta be able to do better than that folks.

[Whitefalls]

It really does suck... and it's just wrong. I had my vehicle broken into and some things stolen a few months ago... the police don't seem to be that concerned. You file a complain over the phone, but other than that there isn't much they can/will do. The area I live in used to be very nice, but over the last year or two vandalism/theft has increased... although it's not near as bad as the situation you are describing.

[mvpel]

As long as you use a level of force in defense of property that is reasonable and necessary and does not ordinarily create a substantial risk of death or great bodily harm, then you have justification under New Mexico law.

Regardless, though, if you give the police something to work with, something more than a smudged or nonexistent fingerprint and a pile of window crumbs, they might be inclined to do more than take the report for your insurance claim.

[Blue Heeler]

Every incident should be reported. That will give the Police information about the frequency of occurrence and the location. I would expect that to lead to more patrolling of the affected areas.
Police catching the offender(s) is the best way to stop them. Video is good and helpful. also rego numbers, if there are cars involved.
Sometimes it is an individual or small group that is very active and can cause a fair bit of damage. I had one bloke whose specialty vandalism was car aerials. He did 120 in a week. He used to walk past the cars on his way home from drinking at a local hotel and always took the same route. As you can imagine, it didn't take long to work out roughly where he lived and when he operated. He was caught in a week and the epidemic stopped.

Other than that I can only echo what has aready been advised. Myself, I'd move to a better area. I know you've said you can't but you know there's no such word as can't, don't you?

I have no idea what your local policing scene is like and can only guess. Maybe the PD is short of staff or underfunded. Citizen complaint is called for if that's the case. You could grow old waiting for improvement.

I wouldn't advise trying to make a citizens arrest

[tel0004]

Move to texas, then you can shoot them, I believe. I think a motion detector would scare off a punk kid, but they may not be afraid of it if they are experienced. Get a video camera, or if its too expensive, get a fake one in plain sight, that should keep them away.

[FrankDrebin]

You can shoot them for a misdemeanor in TX??? Dang......

[Eghad]

Form a Nieghborhood Watch Group......and do some form of patrols in cooperation with the Police Dept.

[cosmolinelover]

Bluehealer, I understand your belief that every incident should be reported, but I have a few reasons why I've found it no longer reasonable to do so (as well as have many of my friends and acquaintances):

1.) Albuquerque police have a notorious tendency to automatically assume that if a crime has been committed against you, it is because of some un-lawful behavior of your own.

2.) APD can and will SEIZE your HOME for being a "nuisance"... this is defined very vaguely and was originally designed to seize bad motels and businesses that allow drugs and prostitution to occur on their grounds (doesn't sound unreasonable). But recently it has been used to scare victims (by the police department) into not calling the cops because they'll seize YOUR HOME just for reporting the crime around you. Its sure an easy way to make sure the crime reported is far far lower than the actual numbers.

3.) (and this one buggs me the most) Whenever you file a police report, whether you're the victim or the suspect involved, your name is thrown into the NICS background check system, without regard to whether you were the victim or the perpetrator of the crime. This results in your name being FLAGGED when you go to buy a gun, and means you get to wait an extra 72 hours to take ownership of whatever new toy you've decided to buy. For some reason, at least here in NM, its too difficult to distinguish between a perp and a victim, and when one's FFL dealer is 35 miles outside of town, it means multiple trips back and forth every time you buy a new gun. (thats me)

(by the way, any fellow new mexicans if you're lookin for an FFL dealer, I got a great guy out in Edgewood... $10 a transfer)

[tollfree969]

Cosmoline,

I live in Albuquerque as well. I am sick of it as well (had my stereo stolen out of my truck at the movies!).

I would highly suggest the stakeout (and I will help you if you want). If it were me I would chase the guy, tackle him, throw a few punches (with a gun in my waist, just in case), tie his hands together, put him on the curb and call the police.

A few years ago a few punk kids ripped down our mailbox and threw it against our door. My dad and brother proceded to get in the truck fully armed and caught up with them (pulled the slide to scare them), told them to stop or they would put a bullet in there head. They proceded to stop and were forced to pay for all the damage (they were minors, cops wouldn't take them to jail).

I am sick of it, and again, I am willing to help you out.

[cosmolinelover]

alright toll free! I'm glad there's still a few of us left in this cesspool of waste... I'd love to get together... if anything else we can go shootin together. I'm gonna PM ya...

[payne]

Your situation reminds me of something that happened a few years ago with my grandmother. These punks kept bashin in her mailbox. To a little old woman livinging off a fixed income mailboxes start to become expensive.

Anyway, she sat out one night in the bushes and poped the people with a bb rifle a couple times. They jumped in the car and took off with my granny shootin' the back of the car. I live in a rual area in north Alabama so this is how that stuff is taken care of here. I have heard of some people take a 22 and shoot the tires out of the mailbox bashers cars. Would definatly advise against that.

I'd be tempted to pop them in the butt with a bb gun if they were bashing my windows outta my car to steal stuff or even just for fun.

[almark]

Payne, your post made me think of another "war story"...

A few years back a friend of mine's grandfather had a problem with kids running over his mailbox (jacked up 4x4, brushguard, etc... it was like running over toothpicks for these jackasses). The grandfather got sick of it one day and decided to do something about it. He used a posthole digger to dig four corner holes about three feet down into the ground. He then placed four steel I-beams into the ground and sank them in concrete. Around this structure he built a nice brick mailbox. To those of you who don't know, those brick mailboxes are usually hollow inside. My friend's grandfather decided to solve this problem... once the bricks had set he completely filled the brick structure with concrete and rebar, then set the actual mailbox in and bricked around it so it looked like any other normal brick mailbox.
A few days after building the mailbox the punk kids decided that a brick mailbox would be a fun thing to smash with their truck. The punk kids learned their lesson this time.

**************** END OF WAR STORY ******************

It makes me sad to hear that there are areas of the country where ordinary civilians and police are powerless to stop what I would call "generally bad people." And it pisses me off that the law creates loopholes for these jerks to get through. All that to say I feel your pain. Here are my thoughts on how to fix it though.

A camera could be a great idea if you can afford one. You said this has happened to a lot of other people in your neighborhood? Get some pictures from the camera of the guy responsible, then give the pictures to the cops. Then give the pictures to everyone in the neighborhood. This is the basis for neighborhood watch, and if it proves successful, people will begin to think starting an official neighborhood watch is a good idea. You mentioned a stakeout... while I'm sure you'd love to catch the guy and beat the tar out of him (I would too)... you may be better served camping out in the garage and taking high-quality pictures with a 35mm camera or camcorder through a window. Just a thought.

Also, what is the problem with the police? Are you sure they're just not doing anything, or is it that they CAN'T do anything? If you are absolutely sure it's the first condition, then could you petition the police to be more proactive? Get every angry homeowner in your neighborhood to sign a petition and present it to the cops. If they know how angry people are, they may respond more strongly to avoid bigger problems (aka: vigilante justice). Can you petition a mayor or something to let them know your plight? Politicians are prostitutes by nature... they may be willing to do more to close loopholes that bind the police if they know its angering a large section of the electorate. All thoughts... whatever you do, please become painfully aware of the NM laws regarding force, lethal or otherwise. Breaking the law is not an option.

Good luck!! :)


EDIT: How about an internet petition? I'd happily sign a petition to the mayor of Albuquerque stating that I will NEVER spend money there because of the threat of vandalism.

[Blue Heeler]

'1.) Albuquerque police have a notorious tendency to automatically assume that if a crime has been committed against you, it is because of some un-lawful behavior of your own.'

If that is true, it's even more reason to leave. I just can't believe it.
Secondly, as far a seizing your home is concerned, how could that possibly happen? You are a tenant aren't you?

Something here isn't right.

[GUNSMOKE45441]

Unfortunately, this is getting to be the case in a lot of larger cities around the country, Spokane Wa. is one of them. Don't have the time or manpower to take care of these crimes, so they say.?????
Letters to the Editor do no good either.
Maybe the answer would be to have the coroners number on speed dial instead of 911, cut out the middleman. :D

[USP45usp]

Here in Eugene Oregon, they actually PUBLISHED the over 150 crimes that they WOULD NOT prosecute.

So now, the bad guys know that they can get away with theft, breaking windows (cars/house), giving liquer(booze) to a minor, and a multitude of other crimes. No money for courts you know.

But you'd be right on target if you think that the cops are still hot and heavy on the roads writing tickets, that's one duty that they have allot of money to do :barf: (as in, a thief can rip off your home and they won't even come out to do a report (done over the phone) and won't investigate the breakin (no money they say for more LEO's) and even if they did then the DA won't press charges anyway. But, you go 1mph over the speed limit BOOMYA, $125 (I think that this is how much it is now, I haven't personally gotten a ticket for awhile)).

And to top it all off, since "weapons offenses" are still being prosecuted, if I were to protect my property, I'M the one going to jail :barf: :barf:

Wayne

*edited to clarify: These are the decisions of the county, not of the mainstream LEO's. The Sheriffs office has cut out some pork so they could hire an investigator and actually come to the crime scene, the Troopers and the City Police are the one's that are refusing to do anything but they are just doing what the Police Chief and the county counsel is telling them to do, they don't like it either and some of the better street LEO's will only pull you over for real vehicle crimes like speeding way over the limit, reckless, DUII, etc..

[JohnKSa]

You can shoot them for a misdemeanor in TX??? Dang......Criminal mischief during the nighttime is considered grounds for use of deadly force if one reasonably believes there is no other way to prevent property damage without exposing one's self to substantial risk of injury or death.§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.002.00.000009.00.htm

[WOD]

Cosmoline,

I as a responsible Christian and business owner do not condone or support vigilantism at all but I have come to a similiar conclusion as yourself that enough is enough. I have two small children and a lovely wife, and my wife and I have worked hard to establish our business and create a living for us. Everyday is a struggle for us to keep the bills paid and stay off the government support system as we are proud people and refuse to take charity, although for my children I have often thought of getting food stamps, but somehow we manage to do without. I tell you this because I want you all to know I find it offensive that some people chose to steal and torment those of us who work hard for a living.

For those of you who tell Cosmoline to move, I find something fundamentally wrong with that. When my business was broken into the policeman spoke with much consternation and advised me to bar up my windows and to make my business less attractive so that the crook will move onto another business. What is wrong with us, when we care about nothing but our own welfare. I was shocked at this statement as I did not want my neighbor to suffer instead of me. Whatever happened to looking out for each other and the sense of common goodness coming together to rid the town of the rats of society. Instead of all working to get rid of the rat, we hope that our neighbor and his family becomes the cheese. In a free God fearing country, we should not be forced to move by the actions of those who care little about others and have no morals. I was watching the "White Pride" speech on tv yesterday and I heard the Grand Dragon say, "I love it when people tell me they dont condone violence because if I see that person sitting on a pot of gold I am going into his lair and I'm taking it." This is what all the criminals are seeing, they see pots of gold all over the place being watched by video cameras and guys with hands in their pockets yelling, " Go away and rob my neighbor instead, but if you do decide to rob me, oh well". You all should read this article from this very website: http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/library/cowards.html

One night as I was about to leave my business, I decided to get out of my car and double check the deadbolts on the doors. When I came back 5 minutes later, someone had taken my backback full of company info, $100 I saved for my families movie night, and my company checks. The officer that responded to this was a nice guy and was disgusted at this incident and he told me that the worst thing about this whole thing is that the chances of catching this guy are 1 in a 1,000 and if they do catch him, he will receive a $50 fine and will receive no jail time. There is nothing to deter this kind of crime as a criminal will scoff at a fine and never pay it because he is not going to worry about his credit history. At my business I have had a rash of stuff stolen, such as powertools, my front door mat, a water basin, rocks, my flag, airless painter, all kinds of stuff and half of the time I was there during business hours. For those of you who tout the whole video camera thing, get real. Havent you seen all the crime videos where the criminals walk in with no regard for the camera. I have caught 4 different people on camera, and tried to prosecute one. All that happened was I wasted 2 days of my life getting this guy a court order for him to pay me back, which he never did. No jail time for this in Oregon. Move my business you say. Well believe it or not I set up my business in one of the ritziest places in Oregon just to get away from this. Eastmoreland is where I am at and the houses average 5,000 square feet and $750,000.

Neighborhood watch? Not with people who have pacifist views like alot of you guys. The only person interested in a neighborhood watch out of the 10 homes I approached was my next door neighbor on the south side of my home. My other next door neighbors hymmed and hawed and were lukewarm with it, but never helped in any crisis. Only my next door neighbor has been vigilant and supportive. Even with my one neighbor and I watching we have had a string of car vandalisms and car theft. My car was entirely gutted of all audio equipment and it had an alarm system in it. If I could afford it I would move, but it is just not feasible at this time.

Get a dog? Well alot of us cant afford a dog, nor have the expertise to care for a dog and that is utterly irresponsible. I have two dogs, a staffordshire and a golden. My neighbor had a wolf dog mix and a collie mix. His wolfdog was poisoned in his front yard. My dogs are part of my family and I dont want them hurt any more than myself. Its not that hard for a crook to walk by and give my dogs a sausage full of rat poison.

What has worked well. Me I am a pacifist so I have done nothing, but a friend whom I have borrowed his acronym for my screen name has done some effective things. He is an avid hunter and archer and thus we call him WOD(W=Whisper O=Of D=Death). He received that name because he shoots traditional and thus he can instinctively hit a milk jug 12 times with 12 arrows in less than 1 minute. To solve my car burglary problems he left my car unlucked with a few tools in view. Low and behold a dark shape appears and begins rummaging through my stuff. WOD sends a Judo Point into his rear end. The guy shreiks in pain and begins to book out of there and gets a rubber blunt to the small of the back for his quick reactions. WOD recovers his bloody Judo point and his blunt tipped arrow. No witnesses, bad guy gone, whooping given.

At the business WOD puts my shop vac next to the front door. WOD waits on the flat roof top. As darkness comes he sees a beat up pickup pull to the curb. A man gets out from the drivers side and grabs the shop vac. As the man turns towards the pickup, he gets a .177 pellet through the hand and drops the vacuum. He yells and gets into the pickup and WOD sends another pellet through the passenger window. The car screeches off but is stopped at the stoplight about 50 yards down the road. WOD sends another pellet through the rear window and another through the passenger side tail light for identification purposes. I have seen that car in town on occasion and have on occassion done my part to put nasty notes on the car.

WODs recommended non-lethal discreet weapons
Roof top stake out: http://www.pyramidair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=135

Judo Points to make a Point: http://www.hoddywell.com.au/BROADHEADS.html#ZWICKEY%20CONDOR%20UNLOSABLE%20MIRACLE%20POINT

Blunt Points to put it bluntly: http://www.yeoldearcheryshoppe.com/bludgeon-small-game-screwin-heads-p-851.html?osCsid=e32f061d14b07e8cfb2407fd864145fe


How long should we all watch, do nothing, and move again? This is how terrorist got a hold of 4 Boeing aircraft with boxcutters. Only one group in one of those planes chose to fight instead of waiting for somebody to do something. We should all be ashamed of this wanton pacifism thats going around.

[Whitefalls]

Wow... I sure do love the Texas law... it's amazing to see a law that was actually made by politicians that give citizens a right to protect their property.

Hunting the guy down the day after he stole your stuff and gunning him down would be vigilantism. Protecting your property from criminals isn't, in my opinion. If it is... well then I guess I'm in favor of vigilantism.

But that's in Texas... I'm pretty sure the law doesn't read that way here. :rolleyes:

[JohnKSa]

Worth noting that the TX law provides no immunity from civil suits.

In other words, you may not go to jail, but you could lose everything in civil court. I posted the law in answer to a specific question, not as a recommendation.

My recommendation was earlier in the thread when I suggested a video camera.

[mvpel]

WOD - you say you're a "pacifist" - you might find this article enlightening:

A Christian Perspective of Self Defense
by Larry Fox - http://www.foxven.com/s-self.html

[eka]

"any LEO's have an opinion? your insight would be greatly appreciated."

Yeah, I would imagine a city the size of Albuquerque is recruiting police officers and being twenty three you are the perfect age, so apply. You want to do stakeouts and catch crooks, then go for it. You seem dissatisfied with the response of the police department, so put on the badge and change things. I think it would be an eye opening experience to say the least.

[mvpel]

Open his eyes to the depth of laziness, apathy, and corruption riddled through all levels of the department causing him to quit the force in disgust after one year, perhaps?

[cosmolinelover]

thanks Eka.. maybe I'll just quit going to college and become a cop. That'll make my life better. No need for a degree anymore, I can become part of a system run under a mayor with no regard towards public safety. Great idea. Thanks.

[mvpel]

Wasn't the ABQ mayor the guy who was trying to circumvent the state's concealed-carry laws a few years back?

[PythonGuy]

From:WOD

I was watching the "White Pride" speech on tv yesterday and I heard the Grand Dragon say, "I love it when people tell me they dont condone violence because if I see that person sitting on a pot of gold I am going into his lair and I'm taking it." This is what all the criminals are seeing, they see pots of gold all over the place being watched by video cameras and guys with hands in their pockets yelling, " Go away and rob my neighbor instead, but if you do decide to rob me, oh well".
What's next, quoting Hitler? Your "friend shooting from the roof? I understand your frustration but what you are doing is illegal and it'll ironic you'll be going to jail with the guys doing all the petty crimes and doing MORE time. Oh, by the way, very religious of you watching a KKK speech and agreeing with it. :barf:

[michael t]

Make it a Public Issue. Go talk to the TV news people and get them involved Like why aren't are Your Police doing their job. Want to put spotlight on Your Chief and Mayor They don't like answering questions on TV. But will take more than you .Need to get several people. Did this few years back to a Mayor and Chief in a city here in KY. Once we talked to TV and they went looking for answers, got results
Also set up a watch and try to tape.

[Whitefalls]

Python, he wasn't agreeing with the KKK guy... he was saying that all the crooks are just like that KKK guy... I think you misread his post. He said the Grand Dragon was saying he loved when people didn't care to defend their stuff, so he could feel free to take it, which is exactly what the criminals are doing.

[tINY]

I'd put up an 8 foot chain link fence with razor wire on the top, a 20 foot slider with a lock at the entrance to the driveway, and a security camera. A dog is optional.

If the neigbors don't like it, tough. When you live in a bad 'hood, you decorate accordingly.



-tINY

[Cyanide_357]

Stakeout with a video camera, a remote controled light if possible... and some paintball guns with their pressure slightly increased.

But the paintball thing might cause some problems with the law... but since the guy was commiting property damage before you pelted him with paint it might fly.... then again.. it might just cause more problems... like the guy confronting you instead of running away.

I don't know. You have a bad situation. Best of luck.

Cyanide

[Slateman]

Actually, you may be on to something with the paintball.

They make pepper spray paintballs. You wouldn't have to even hit the guy, just near him and it goes into the air. Fire off twenty of the things.

Why not just confront the guy in the act? Go out there, armed, and tell him to leave. He points a weapon at you, its self defense, right?

[JohnKSa]

You know, the good guy doesn't always win, even when he has a gun.

I'd advise not getting into a situation that could lead to someone's death if at all possible. Especially if the death could be your own.

[Tylden]

I believe I'd consider a pepper spray bomb inside the car. Check out www.stopthecrime.com or the pepper spray booby trap at www.defensedevices.com. It wouldn't be that difficult to set it up to go off via a sensor when the glass was broken. Just a thought.

[OBIWAN]

Step 1...find a good criminal attorney...you will likely need one

If you do confront them you may get shot or killed...hope the car is worth it

If you try the pepper balls , remember that it is real cool until someone loses an eye...there you are ...abck in court

If you do "stop them"...what do you do if they just walk away...not threatening you...just walks away??

What happens if you tackle them and then hold them for the police

And then they claim they did not break into the car....that they were looking for the owners name in the glove box to let them know their car had been broken into....

Your word against theirs....and you are on trial for unlawful detainment/kidnapping

I was just walking by and this guy tackled me and tied me up

I understand the frustration......

Just don't do anything dumb

[WOD]

What's next, quoting Hitler? Your "friend shooting from the roof? I understand your frustration but what you are doing is illegal and it'll ironic you'll be going to jail with the guys doing all the petty crimes and doing MORE time. Oh, by the way, very religious of you watching a KKK speech and agreeing with it.

I totally despise KKK and other hate groups. I was just giving you an example of the immoral criminal mind frame. You guys wanting Cosmoline to do nothing because any kind of justice he would administer is a crime is disheartening. Basically what you all are saying is that in fear of our local law enforcement turning on us for doing the right and just thing, we must do nothing. Why do we teach our children not to steal when they see someone steal from us and we do nothing.

All I am saying is that there are times that we must fight a good fight and stand up for our rights. If we must resort to covert tactics to protect our life and our property from criminals and from prosecution from those who should be protecting us then we should adopt them. What WOD did was a service to me and to my community. Who will punish the criminals if not we who have the capability. If the law wants to prosecute us for dishing out justice, then we must make sure we leave no evidence.

[tollfree969]

I agree with WOD 100%

Well said again, Abaddon (VVV)

[Abaddon]

New Hampshire's state motto is "live free or die". I think that this expresses a value all true Americans have - that it's better to die a free man than live under tyranny. Constant threat to your property is a form of tyranny, even if it comes from the guy next door.

Our forefathers rebelled against England at least partly in order to protect their property (no taxation without representation). They realized that if their property was not safe then they were not free and they valued freedom over life. The only difference in this situation is that instead of the government stealing property it is private citizens. I say that if it was morally justified to break the law at Lexington and Concord then it is morally justified for Cosmolinelover to break the law in his own driveway by opposing these criminals. The only issue is whether or not Cosmo feels that the risk is worth it, given the legal and physical consequences.

Everyone has to make this decision for him/herself. I wouldn't look down on Cosmo if he just put up with it until he could move away. But at the same time no one else should dissuade him if he decides that his freedom is more important than the laws that say he can't protect that freedom.

[wayneinFL]

Recently we had a kid who slashed tires through my mom and dad's neighborhood. Slashing old retired people's tires and stranding them at home. Funny prank, huh?

If you do confront them you may get shot or killed...hope the car is worth it

I think the issue goes much further than just the car. If we all knuckle under to the thugs, what will our cities turn into? Do you want your kids living in a city where it's considered acceptable to break the windows out of people's cars every couple of weeks? What about shoplifters, pickpockets, vandals, burglars, drug dealers? Do you want your children raising your grandchildren in that kind of environment?

Tolerance breeds acceptance, acceptance encourages more of the same behavior.

I'd rather take my chances running off or catching some juvenile delinquent busting windows out of cars, slashing tires, or stealing crap, than to force my kids to deal with their kids in later life.

FWIW, I think it's a moot point for me. I can't see someone being arrested for tackling a vandal or burglar in my town. Most crooks have already had run-ins with the police at some point in time, so usually cops know who the bad guy really is. But I'd try the camera first.

mvpel: good link! this guy did his homework.

eka: If you don't like it, do it yourself, huh? If your phone goes out for 2 weeks are you going to quit your job and go to work for the phone company? Or are you going to tell them to get out to your house and do their job?

[JohnKSa]

I agree that we shouldn't knuckle under to thugs. I've posted before that when people simply turn the other way or move out of a bad neighborhood that the people who CAN'T move suffer. Often that's the very disadvantaged or the elderly--the very people that responsible people should try to protect.

However, I still question the wisdom of instigating potentially deadly confrontation over a minor crime. If it's a one time thing there's not much you can do. If it's a repeat offense then the camera or video camera is a great tool.

[tollfree969]

Small crimes turn into big crimes. One day it's stealing, the next it's armed robbery. It has to stop somewhere in my opinion.

[eka]

mvpel: "Open his eyes to the depth of laziness, apathy, and corruption riddled through all levels of the department causing him to quit the force in disgust after one year, perhaps?"

cosmolinelover: "thanks Eka.. maybe I'll just quit going to college and become a cop. That'll make my life better. No need for a degree anymore, I can become part of a system run under a mayor with no regard towards public safety. Great idea. Thanks."

wayneinFL: "eka: If you don't like it, do it yourself, huh? If your phone goes out for 2 weeks are you going to quit your job and go to work for the phone company? Or are you going to tell them to get out to your house and do their job?"

You know, I didn't know I wasn't supposed to earn college degrees while working as an apathetic, lazy, and corrupt cop. I wish you had told me this before I went to all the trouble.

And Wayne, I'm not the one proposing that Cosmolinelover go out and do anything. It is he who is wanting to conduct stakeouts and catch criminals. Using your analogy, if you are going to go out and climb the telephone pole and attempt to repair the phone, then you should work for the phone company or stay the heck off the pole and let them do their job.

Cosmolinelover: The next time you start a thread, why don't you address the situation you really want to talk about? I don't think you are looking for a whole lot of information about how to protect yourself against criminals. You had your mind made up on that before you ever started this thread. What you really wanted to talk about is cops and your dislike for them. What I think you really need to do is grow up! You write: "If things were different, and the political environment allowed it, I'd be the first the say "just shoot the bastard" and end it there, whether he's armed, or not, doens't really matter, he's still commiting a bad crime and wronging me to the point that I can't afford to undo it." How ridiculous is that statement, when you are talking about individuals (probably kids) breaking car windows and stealing stereos? Personally, I would not need or want you and your loose cannon buddies out staking out my neighborhood with your John Wayne attitudes and I'm not so sure your neighbors would either.

[SamD]

cosmolinelover,
Park a fresh car in the driveway and sleep in it. ;)
Confront them and attempt to ID. Take your video camera with you
If they run, then at least you have put the fear into them and maybe you get enough film for an ID. :cool:
If they offer violence, ????. :D

So long as you do not initiate violence, no troubles, so don't.

Call the bigmouths at KOB, they always claim to be looking for a story. Maybe that scrawny fellow with the caterpiller moustache will come out for another police idiocy session on the tube.
Tell 'em how Marty's minions aren't willing to help. He is really sensitive to bad press.

eka: remember the part of your training that said, "do not allow your personal feeling toward the principles influence your judgement in the matter at hand"

Sam

[claude783]

OK, I suggested the non-lethal solution to the problem. Using a video and letting the neighbors see who is "ripping" them off.

I suppose, if I were a sick B******d, I might order up a book from Loompanics called The Poor Man's Ray Gun, by David Gunn:

He goes into details of "how to" take a microwave oven and turn it into a ray gun...quote "I have ignited a 4X8 sheet of plywood, from 500 feet away using a 5000 watt maser for only 30 seconds".

No balistics, no noise, just a well done piece of meat laying in the street!

Book can be ordered through Loompanics..

[wayneinFL]

And Wayne, I'm not the one proposing that Cosmolinelover go out and do anything. It is he who is wanting to conduct stakeouts and catch criminals. Using your analogy, if you are going to go out and climb the telephone pole and attempt to repair the phone, then you should work for the phone company or stay the heck off the pole and let them do their job.


"wanting to catch criminals"? I really don't think he wants to catch criminals. I think the police won't/can't do it, and if they do, the courts let the criminals back out on the streets. I could be wrong, but I think if someone was busting windows out of cars in front of my house every couple of weeks, it would be time to do something. If the government won't fix it, the citizens have no choice but to fix it.

[delta58]

Vote for Hillary so they would all have jobs and would be to busy to steal(Just kidding). Unfortunately your options are limited, you can't kill someone for stealing a stereo ( nor would you want to hopefully), if i were doing it when I was a kid all you would have to do is call my Dad and the problem would be solved.:0 That can be a tough problem, I think someone mentioned a video which I have used in the past, especially if you can get a positive ID.

[Dog Confetti]

eka: Try not to get all butt-hurt...

The situation is real and the question was a legitimate open-ended one, even if it doesn't have a good answer. I've had my truck broken into in his driveway too...It's not a bad neighborhood, and the city is no worse than any other, but there is a problem and we all know it...and the cops simply cannot (I did not say "don't want to") do anything about it...

[WOD]

The situation is real and the question was a legitimate open-ended one, even if it doesn't have a good answer. I've had my truck broken into in his driveway too...It's not a bad neighborhood, and the city is no worse than any other, but there is a problem and we all know it...and the cops simply cannot (I did not say "don't want to") do anything about it...

I have talked to many officers and they are just as frustrated as we are. If you read my earlier post you would understand why. Police officers are not the bad guys here, the problem lies in too much bureaucracy and shortage of funds due to improper allocations of state funds. The officer that responded to my back pack burglary was greatly sympathetic and said the laws in place were a joke as the guy probably will never be caught and even if he was caught, it was a $50 ticket. The officer was just as disgusted at the lawmakers. Here is another example of police frustration, when the crackhead’s house down the street caught fire, and my neighbor being a good Samaritan called the fire dept. the local cops whom we have come to know well, jokingly reprimanded my neighbor telling him that he could have done the neighborhood a great service and saved us(cops) a lot of time and trouble if he would have just let the house burn. A few months later the crackhead led the cops on a highspeed chase to his house where he shot one cop and was shot 12 times and killed by 3 other cops. This all happened 2 houses away from my house. The neighborhood has been greatly improved ever since the crackhead was gunned down.

No one is under more scrutiny than the police and they often feel even more powerless because they are supposed to be the ones with the authority to make a difference. When they come out and respond to a burglary, not only can they not only do anything proactive, they must waste their time recording the incident. The cops hands are slapped and tied until they become nothing more than uniformed records keepers and ticket masters. I do not envy the role of the modern day police officer.

Last night my 10 year old sons bike was stolen out of our fenced yard. My wife took offense when I told my son that if I see the guy that stole his bike I was going to beat the hell out of him. She asked the same rhetorical question many of you pacifist ask, “Is that bike really worth it?” I held my tongue for a second and then I told her to look at our son who was in tears in the corner of the room, I said “look at our son, we teach him not to steal but when someone steals from him we rationalize that we should do nothing. I say the only guy who deserves any kind of judgment is the crook who stole my sons bike. When I am ready to break all the fingers in the crooks right hand, I will ask him, “was this bike really worth it?” We must force the criminals to ask themselves is this really worth it? The way our system works here, why would one not want to be a criminal. The present message is that you can steal everyones gold and if you get caught by the cops you will get a ticket, oh and don’t worry about the property owners they are too afraid of the laws to do anything to stop you. Seriously guys, my point is inarguable. Right now WOD seems to have the best way to dissuade these criminals.

[3 weelin geezer]

Ok, then. For anyone who knows...what DO we do if someone is breaking into their car? How can they be brought to justice and made to pay with money (THIER money) for their crime? I am very interested in this because like many that is my question: What can I legally do? If I pull a gun just in case its brandishing or using unnecessary deadly force even if not shot. If I somehow just hit them to knock them out and tie them up its assault and kidnapping or unlawful detention. Or I can just watch them waltz away laughing and doing it again and I can just stand there with my thumbs up my ... and thats it. I just have to bend over and pay pay pay the insurance because of all my claims and since no one gets caught to sue (if they have money) then I am out of luck. Where can I feel safe? Why bother locking my door at night? Why bother using keys to lock my car if someone can just break the glass and take whatever they want? I do not have the clout of some 'important' figure in the comunity so I do not deserve to be left in peace? C'mon! Lets hear it from all the law experts. What are the options? What can we do besides take pictures that are too fuzzy to take to court with a positive ID? Can these people be captured and held for police while under the watchful eye of that camera to prove that this person was not 'just walking by and this biker dude kicked my ... and knocked me down because I got near his house. Its a free country I can walk wherever..'

[WOD]

Ok, then. For anyone who knows...what DO we do if someone is breaking into their car? How can they be brought to justice and made to pay with money (THIER money) for their crime? I am very interested in this because like many that is my question: What can I legally do? If I pull a gun just in case its brandishing or using unnecessary deadly force even if not shot. If I somehow just hit them to knock them out and tie them up its assault and kidnapping or unlawful detention. Or I can just watch them waltz away laughing and doing it again and I can just stand there with my thumbs up my ... and thats it. I just have to bend over and pay pay pay the insurance because of all my claims and since no one gets caught to sue (if they have money) then I am out of luck. Where can I feel safe? Why bother locking my door at night? Why bother using keys to lock my car if someone can just break the glass and take whatever they want? I

I would really like to get a response from either a lawyer or a LEO on this. Realistically do you think there is any real deterrence to these kinds of crimes?

3 wheel geezer,
I will answer your questions from my own personal experiences.
Legally what can you do if you see someone breaking into your car? You can catch them on film and yell at them to stop. Call 911 and wait for cops so you can waste their time and your time telling them what you caught on tape and what insults you yelled at them. Then you get the cops name and number so you can get his report for you to turn into your insurance agency for your claim. You will then have to pay a $250 insurance deductible for replacement equipment that is half as nice as your custom equipment that was stolen because you failed to keep receipts for stuff you bought 2 years ago. Three months later your insurance goes up because you are now an insurance liability so in three years you end up actually paying for the mediocre equipment anyway due to your higher premiums.

From your video, if the overworked cops even have time to view it, they will recognize the guy as they have booked him many times for burglary and assault. They give him a $50 ticket and show him the tape and tell him he better pay or they will give him jail time. Since this is Oregon and there is not enough funds, the thief already knows he will never receive jail time as Oregon no longer locks up criminals who steal or beat up other people. He is a free loader so he cares little about credit history and thus uses the ticket for toilet paper. He goes home to Billy Bobs or Grandma Janes basement and plans his next heist.

Why bother locking your car doors? Well so that the crook will steal from your buddy Steve next door of course. Its all about putting it to the next guy.

Can you bonk them on the head and tie them up? Maybe, but its your word against theirs. Also if this guy is a violent guy, are you going to feel safe that while you are away on your 9 to 5 job making an honest living for your family? This guy having nothing better to do, might seek retribution and mess with your property even more. I have had mysterious shapes vandalize my shop in the twilight hours shortly after face to face confrontations. We cant wait around all day personally protecting our property.

WOD believes that for the present political situation, the only thing we can do is strike back in stealth. Let them know their are people watching and that at any time from any place these watchers will strike out from the shadows from any direction. "Who shot me in the *ss, was it the owner of the car I was trying to steal, the neighbor, the guy down the street, who?" This is how deterrence will happen.

[wayneinFL]

Using your analogy, if you are going to go out and climb the telephone pole and attempt to repair the phone, then you should work for the phone company or stay the heck off the pole and let them do their job.


I just remembered- my dad actually did this when I was a kid. Dad called the phone company numerous times then after a couple of weeks (mom said it was really only 10 days) called to tell them he would break in and fix it himself. He rammed the doors to the local switching office, and couldn't get in. When security and sheriff's dept. showed up, they opened the building and had someone fix it. Dad paid for the door and wasn't arrested. Town was back in service.

[mvpel]

Since this is Oregon and there is not enough funds, the thief already knows he will never receive jail time as Oregon no longer locks up criminals who steal or beat up other people.
Too many pot smokers locked up instead?

[mantis7]

maybe we should start thinking of our police in terms of resources. Do we really want them busting pot smoking hippies, and 5-dollar whores when they could be stopping people from taking your property? Its your choice people.

[WOD]

maybe we should start thinking of our police in terms of resources. Do we really want them busting pot smoking hippies, and 5-dollar whores when they could be stopping people from taking your property? Its your choice people.

Do you really think its the peoples choice? It is not even the LEO's choice. Like I have pointed out numerous times in this post. LEOs are just as frustrated as we are. I challenge any LEO to tell me otherwise. The lawmakers make the decision on the priority and the punishment, not us or the LEOs.

Theft seems to be a problem derived from a society full of pacifist. Just the other day I told a customer to bring his bike in the shop as I did not have bike racks. The guy just said, "oh I'm not worried about it, if someone steals my bike they must need it more than I did." I dont know about you guys, but if someone even thinks of stealing my bike, he will not have me wishing him a happy and prosperous life.

[WOD]

Just yesterday on the 10'Oclock News, a fellow Oregonian catches a crook red handed stealing his stereo and belongings out of his brand new Dodge pickup. The owner was big enough to beat the tar out of most average sized guys, but instead of beating the tar out of this guy and breaking the thieves fingers he nicely said, "Hey, that is my stuff you are taking, put them back" The thief seeing that this big guy is a pacifist, tells the owner of the truck that he is disoriented and does not know what he is doing. On top of this disoriented bull, the thief tells the big guy he needs some coffee to clear his head, so what does the big guy do. He actually goes in and makes the thief a cup of coffee before calling 911. After they chit chat and have coffee or whatever the cops finally take the thief in and just as I have stated on this thread the thief is taken to the county courthouse and then set free within hours. Minutes later he was arrested again for trying to break into a car at the courthouse.

This whole situation just thumbs its nose at us law abiding citizens and wastes the time of money of the LEO's who must respond to it.

I think a few hard kicks to the ribs and a few broken fingers in his right hand might have kept him off the crime a little longer. W.O.D. suggests a good dose of arsenic in the coffee.

[Randy in Arizona]

As an EX-resident of Lovely Albuquerque, I know what you are unhappy about!

Take a good long look at the judges and the revolving door 'catch and release' program that currently slightly hampers the crooks activities. Do a lot of research and document the worst offenders among the judges. Publicize the lousy job they are doing and un-elect them.

Kick them out of office and elect harsher judges. If there is not enough room for the hoods, borrow a few pages from the much hated sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona. Put the little darlings in tents wearing pink underwear and feasting on baloney sandwiches.

As long as it is easier for the worthless ba$tard$ to steal for a living, and crime has no real consequences for them, they will not change. They have to be taught that bad behavior on their part causes bad things to happen to them!

The only things I miss, no longer living in Albert's Turkey, are the Balloon Fiesta and New Mexican style cooking. The cooks in Tucson think Serrano chilies are 'Green Chili' :barf:

Vaya Con Dios, my internet friends - I wish you the best!