This happened on Wednesday

[azspyder]

This is a true scenario that happened to me Wed. afternoon. Before I go into the details, let me tell you a little about me so that you can put it in perspective. I am a 73 year old male, 6' and 165 lbs. I am in decent health except for arthritis (shoulders & knees) and early emphysema. I have a CCW and regularly carry a Kimber Ultra Carry in an IWB holster with a Hawaiian shirt untucked. I am an investigator and my work puts me in unsavory neighborhoods from time to time. I practice at the range weekly (50 to 100 rounds) using Weaver stance, offhand with both left and right hands and one-handed both sides. I'm relatively proficient and usually hit what I aim at.
Wed. afternoon found me in one of those neighborhoods where I stopped a Circle K for a bottle of water (112 degrees). I had to park at the end of the building and as I walked by, I noticed what appeared to be a typical wino (40 to 50, small build, dirty, unshaven and smelly) leaning against the building. I ignored him, went in and got my water and started back to my car. As I walked past this guy, I heard him mumble something about "5 bucks". Thinking he was a panhandler, I said "No thanks" and kept walking. About 10 feet later, I heard him say loudly, "I said I need 5 bucks". I turned around to see him in a fighting crouch with a knife in his right hand (looked like a 4 to 5" blade folder). My first thought was run, but in my physical condition, that's a non-starter. I started back-pedaling, lifted my shirt with my left hand, exposing my weapon while grabbing the grip with my right. I did not draw my weapon. At that point, the guy turned around and ran. Someone in store had called 911 and the police came. I showed them my CCW and all was well.
I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't run? Given that there were people behind him, I couldn't take an aimed shot at that distance. My plan was to draw and one hand him in the pelvis as fast as I could pull the trigger.

What do you guys think?

[big daddy 9mm]

I think you acted wisely. it makes me think about the times that I do not look back at them the second time they ask for cash. who knows? maybe he would have fforced the issue but that would not have been your fault. good reaction. :) :) ;) ;)

[XavierBreath]

First off, you did great and I'm glad you are OK.
What could you have done better? IMHO in the situation given, not a thing. The conclusion of the encounter is evidence of your success.

The only thing I would advise is shooting COM. You have a much better chance at stopping the threat, and less chance of a miss and hitting a bystander. Yes, he may have continued his charge. That is why you carry multiple rounds. Chances are, he would not have continued. There are only a couple of types who will continue to charge while soaking up .45ACP in the chest, and a wino with a knife wanting $5 from a stranger doesn't fit the profile. Here's the last hip shot thread. (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166302&highlight=hip+acetabulum)

One other thing........ the backpedaling........... Yes, increasing distance is advised in lethal encounters, but falling on your butt is not. In a parking lot or in front of a convienence store is a bad place to back pedal. There are just to many different levels of surface and to many things to run into behind you. Take a look at this thread (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176267) to see what I mean.

All in all, you did fine though. I'm sure you will get accused of brandishing in this thread. I, myself, think you showed a lot of restraint. Your actions are a credit to CCW holders everywhere.

[Para Bellum]

I think you did perfectly well.

[bclark1]

applaud your response. you showed a good deal of restraint in not drawing and conducting yourself in a way that positively reflects on the CCW community. high fives! ;)

[azspyder]

Xavier
Your points are well taken. My reasoning was that he was well within knife danger range and that I would need to stop him, not just kill him. I was taught that the pelvis is a good target in that it screws up his movements. Also I practice that particular move.

You're right about backpedaling...I think I panicked and wanted to get more distance.

Brandishing. The police who responded said I did it right and it was not brandishing because I was in fear for my life...and I sure was! They were very nice and complimentary.

[Duxman]

Spyder - Great awareness and good instincts. You did nothing wrong, and I am glad you did not have to draw. Another crime averted. :D

IF the encounter was forced (wino did not run but continued to charge:)
I would have fired 2 COM shots, but then I carry .40 HP loads in my summer gun. Overpenetration is always an issue but if his chest cavity absorbs or deflects most of the round's power, the chances of it hitting and severely injuring someone in the backdrop would be much less. :eek:

I do not know if you carry FMJ in your .45.

[azspyder]

Duxman,
I carry Hornady 200 XTP for social loads...I practice with hardball. The Hornady is more accurate...I figure, if I can hit with hard ball, I can hit with the carry load.

I should have also have mentioned that, because of my shoulder, I carry in the appendix style. When I lifted my shirt, he could see the gun.

[XavierBreath]

Azspyder,
No sense in rehashing all the valid points regarding hip shots here, that's why I edited my post and included a link to the last thread. There are very valid points made in it. Check it out, it's an excellent read. If you have faith in your ability to stop a man with a hip shot, and are ready to stake your life on that faith, who am I to question you?

Brandishing is brandishing, ie, showing a weapon in any form to deter a threat. Personally, I think the legal term should be changed to unjustified brandishing to describe the illegal brandishing of a firearm. That would clear out a lot of misconceptions. I guess people would have to think then, and it's just easier to say don't do it.

Please don't think I am judging you. I'm not. I would like to think I had handled the same situation as well as you. I'm very glad that you are OK and still contributing here.

[azspyder]

I just got a call from Phx PD saying they had caught the guy and he is locked up.

Here's what AZ says about the subject:
"13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force

A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force. "

The LEOs said that covered me nicely. The County Att'y office tells me the case will probably be pled out; if not, I'll be called to testify. My guess is he'll plead...there must have been 15 witnesses.

[nug_38]

You used your tool defensively, and you can talk about it. No blood was spilled.

Be carefull and stay safe. Oh, and keep practicing too.

nug

[RWK]

azspyder,

I believe you did a GREAT job: no shots fired, no blood spilled, AND YOU ARE UNHARMED. Personally, I cannot think of anything I would have altered regarding the way you handled the situation.

Now I am not an attorney, however I believe you would have justified -- reasonable fear of immediate and grave bodily harm or even death -- to have fired on the felon. I am glad you were not compelled to do so, for many reasons.

My hat is off to you and to the way in which you dealt with this situation.

[azspyder]

Thanks for the kind comments, guys.
Xavier, I read your links...your advice is sound...Thanks.
Ace in the hole...I have a brother in law who is a Deputy County Attorney. He tells me that there's no way I will be charged. Now, if I had shot him while he was running...different story.

[Mannlicher]

The only thing I feel you did 'wrong', was to not be more aware of this guy going in, and coming out. He got the drop on ya, and if his intent was to harm you first, take your money later, you would have been his oyster.
Glad your response handled the matter. Walking away with no one being hurt is never a bad thing.

[JohnKSa]

Glad you made it through ok. Glad you didn't have to shoot.

[chris in va]

Just curious, how do you feel about the incident now that things have settled a bit? Is hindsight 20/20, are you relieved...questioning your handling of the situation?

I think you did a stellar job, and only hope I have enough nerve like you did to keep cool if someone whips out a knife like that.

[Dwight55]

Azspyder, . . .

I would first say you did a great job, . . . came home safe and no blood shed.

If I was forced to find something negative to say, . . . it would only be that I have always been under the impression that if the situation is bad enough that I need to show the guy my iron, . . . he will probably well remember seeing the front end of the barrel.

And I have to say that partially because I carry either in a shoulder holster, or a side holster generally at about 4:30, . . . I would have to pull it out to get him to understand the gravity of his stupidity.

All in all, though, . . . again, . . . great job.

May God bless,
Dwight

[HighValleyRanch]

Thanks for sharing the real life experience!
i believe that in most states, showing that you have a weapon is different from drawing and threatening with the weapon. Drawing the gun would be in the realm of brandishing if the situation wasn't deemed a real threat. I do not believe that just showing the weapon could have resulted in that charge, but I'm not a lawyer, just what I though they taught us in the CCW class.
This situation leaves one cause to rethink the size of the weapon as well. Lately I was moving towards a small mouse gun for summer carry, but then would a small gun deep in the waist band have had the same effect without having to draw it out?
Seeing a larger grip would have slightly more sobering effect on some.
Not sure if that makes a difference or not, but a mini gun that is almost totally hidden in your hand just isn't going to look the same as say a Glock 19!
Once my brother was accosted in a bad part of Oakland by a BG. He was LEO, so he did carry off duty. The big thug said, "What if I just beat you up and took your money?"
Like true Dirty Harry style, (and my bro is thin guy) my brother said,
" and what if I just blow you away" with a jesture towards his waist (never had to actually show his piece).
The thug turned and walked quickly away.
He also once stopped a guy running away by holding his hands in a weaver style stance and yelled, Stop or I will shoot!
Just hootspa in preventing situations I believe as well.

[azspyder]

A couple of comments. Mannlicher suggested that I probably should have been more aware of the guy going in...and he's right. As an old fighter pilot and race car driver, I have had "situational awareness" pounded into to me most of my life. I certainly wasn't as watchful as I should have been. In addition, I have difficulty remembering that, at my age, I look more like a victim than I am prepared to be.
Chris wanted to know how I feel about it now that it's over. Well, the word that comes to mind is shook . In hindsight, I probably wouldn't have backpedaled (luckily, I didn't trip), but other than that, I think I did rather well. I'm grateful for the time I spent training and practicing, because it gave me the confidence to stay cool. I was asked by the LEO investigating if I would have shot if the perp had kept coming. My answer was "In a heartbeat". He smiled.

[mvpel]

I was asked by the LEO investigating if I would have shot if the perp had kept coming. My answer was "In a heartbeat". He smiled.

Hopefully it was a good, "'atta boy" smile, instead of a sinister, "gotcha" smile. Sounds like it was, thankfully.

[blackmind]

Yeah, about that question, "Would you have shot if the perp had kept coming?"... That sounds like a setup. Were you obligated to answer the cop's questions? It doesn't sound like there was ever a time, during the police response after the incident, that you were in danger of being taken away for doing something illegal. So if you had "lawyered up" and said that you would be happy to discuss your legal use of defensive action once you had consulted a lawyer, could they have given you a hard time?

I ask this because I really wonder why that cop asked you that question. Was it for personal curiousity? Was it relevant to the decision of whether to charge you? Since you didn't shoot, or even draw, how is what you "would have considered doing" even relevant?? The cop might as well have asked you if you would have schtupped the queen of England if the perp had kept coming. It's rather moot, right?

Anyway, glad to hear it turned out well for you, and that you had the presence of mind, and the equipment, to defend your own life.

Cool on you that you're a former fighter pilot, too! Me, I just putter around in C-152s, but it's still fun. Every once in a while, I make a "fssshhhhh!" sound like I'm firing missiles at someone, a la Walter Mitty. (j/k) :p

-blackmind

[azspyder]

Hey, blackmind, you ask some interesting questions:
"Yeah, about that question, "Would you have shot if the perp had kept coming?"... That sounds like a setup. Were you obligated to answer the cop's questions? It doesn't sound like there was ever a time, during the police response after the incident, that you were in danger of being taken away for doing something illegal. So if you had "lawyered up" and said that you would be happy to discuss your legal use of defensive action once you had consulted a lawyer, could they have given you a hard time?"
My impression is that it was a casual question. He had filled out his report and we were just chatting. He and I both knew that I was clean on the deal. He was a friendly guy, asked me how I liked the Kimber, where I practiced etc. I didn't feel that he was trying to entrap me in any way.


"Cool on you that you're a former fighter pilot, too! Me, I just putter around in C-152s, but it's still fun. Every once in a while, I make a "fssshhhhh!" sound like I'm firing missiles at someone, a la Walter Mitty." (j/k)
I know the feeling...my son owns a 172 that I drive every once in a while. Frankly, I get more fun out of Microsoft's Combat Simulator!
"Throw a nickle on the grass, my friend"

[USP45usp]

I think that you did well. You were in fear (and who wouldn't be! A knife being pointed at you at 10ft is like a gun being pointed at you at 15ft IMHO).

The only thing that I would have done differently was to take the "long way" around the wino (as in, go out of my way to have distance between he and I).

I understand the "backpedling" because it was actually shock that caused you to panic for that instant and it's normal to get the "flight or fight" response in a deadly situation. But I think that you regained your composure (most likely due to your past) quickly and handled the situation well.

As for the people behind him, that is why you practice, practice, practice so that you hit your target, even under pressure.

The only thing that I will commit on is to practice with your carry rounds also and not just hardball. I know that it can be/get expensive but each different type of ammo fires differently (recoil, point of aim, etc..) and could "throw" off your shots under pressure since you're mostly used to using hardball.

And my last word is, you went home unharmed that day, so therefore, you did well!

Wayne

[TheeBadOne]

You did well (especially by reporting it afterwords, hopefully they can find him and give him "3 hots & a cot" for a while).http://www.kirupa.com/forum/images/smilies/jail.gif

[k9lwt]

Well done, glad you're OK.

[Trockstroh]

I think you did the right thing, you did not rush into drawing your gun and you really had no other option.

[mvpel]

You did well (especially by reporting it afterwords, hopefully they can find him and give him "3 hots & a cot" for a while).

Sounds like he's already been found and may wind up pleading out.

So, instead of stealing only five of his victim's dollars with which to feed and shelter himself, he'll steal thousands of his victims' tax dollars by proxy through the government to be fed and sheltered. :rolleyes:

The concept of restitution by criminals makes so much more sense.

[Meiji_man]

I live in Phoenix, where did this happen?

Glad your Okay.

[Randy in Arizona]

TheeBadOneYou did well (especially by reporting it afterwards, hopefully they can find him and give him "3 hots & a cot" for a while). Well if it was in Maricopa County, the cot is correct, but the chow is likely to be cold baloney sandwiches! :D :D :D

[John Ringo]

Glad you are okay.

[westphoenix]

Well done, I think you did perfectly; I am glad he chose to flee.
For us Phoenix members let us know where this took place.
I obviously live in west Phoenix where hese wino's are everywhere and unpredictable.
There are also people trying to sell you stuff in dark parking lots.
They way they approach makes me prepare to reach for my pistol.

[azspyder]

First of all, thanks for the comments, compliments and critiques. They are all taken to heart and I will benefit from them.

Several of you have asked where in Phoenix this took place. My legal eagle advised me to give no details, so I won't. Suffice it to say, it was South Phoenix below the I 10 and east of Central Ave. Sorry, best I can do. :)

I understand the perp is enjoying Sheriff Joe's tent city...green balogna and all.

[308Enfield]

I'm curious how LE views situations like this where a knife is involved. I practice martial arts and we luckily have an attorney as our head instructor. He often reminds us, among other handy things for staying out of fights to begin with, that in any confrontation the larger person has a more difficult time proving that they needed to use a certain level of force. I pay close attention to this (6'3", athletic 195 lbs.). In the same situation would I be more likely to have trouble in the investigation because the size advantage made the guy with the knife "less threatening"? As far as I'm concerned a weapon immediately takes size out of the equation, but I'm curious if anybody has knowledge/experience about this.

[Jehzsa]

Come October with the new law in Florida, azspyder could have killed that individual without worrying about criminal or civil liability.

[butch50]

azspyder

Well done! You were cool under pressure and did exactly what you have the legal right to do - stopped the bad guy with the minimum amount of force required. You were prepared to escalate the force if necessary, but had the presence of mind, and steady nerves, to go no further than you needed to for the situation at hand. I admire you for that and thank you for sharing with all of us.

It is perfectly normal to re-think every move later, and to see things that you could have done better - we are our own worst critics after all.....But I can not imagine how the outcome could have been better. The back-pedalling was an intelligent move, you needed to gain distance but you could not turn your back on him to do it - Only a second before you had been facing that direction and knew what lay (now) behind you, so you moved backwards over known ground without stumbling - what could be wrong with that? Perfect move in my estimation.

Everyone who reads this thread will have learned valuable lessons from you.

THANKS!

[Ichiro]

Bad guy pulls a knife and accosts you in a crouched "fighting" stance. You clear your clothing and put your hand on your gun. Bad guy runs away. Excellent and fortunate example of the defensive use of a handgun.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think putting your hand on a holstered gun constitutes a threat of deadly force. The bad guy, on the other hand, had already threatened deadly force. What you describe tells me that this guy was not innocently walking his knife to the local hardware store to get it sharpened.

In my opinion, you would have been justified to pull the gun out of the holster and aim it at the guys guts, had you felt the need to do so.

~Ichiro

[djw6611]

sounds good, you did a great job.

Only thing I would suggest is to get some fox labs pepper spray and carry that as well, I would recommend a 2oz can. My reasoning for this - what if he didn't have a knife, and he was just going to strong arm the money from you. You generally cannot draw your firearm in that situation, but pepper spray would be legal and likey persuade the perp to get lost.

Obviously the use of lethal force (firearm) was justified in this situation, and as such it was handled correctly.