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View Full Version : Hunting Pups and Copperheads Just Don't Mix


Rich Lucibella
July 5, 2005, 04:30 PM
One concern I've had with my Catahoula Leopard Dog is snakes. This pup is a born tracker; very "nosy"; by the time he was 3 months old, he'd already brought back rotting deer leg, dead frogs, unknown bones and one self-killed rat snake. Miko Wattah ("Chief Hunter") is somewhat appropriate

I was determined to break him of the snake interest and have used a training collar on two snakes so far; the one he killed and an eagle-killed rattler in Montana. Evidently, I should have offered a few more lessons.

On July 4th, he sniffed up something in a crevice under the garage at my NC hideout. He gave a short yelp and stuck his nose back in, presumably to scold the offending creature. The next yelp was louder and he retreated. Investigating the incident, we saw a few bees and assumed he'd been stung. 15 minutes later we were certain that was no bee sting. We pulled a shortish Copperhead out of the hole. He succumbed immediately to repeated blunt force head trauma and now sits in the freezer.

The rapidity and size of the reaction was truly frightening as we attempted to find an emergency vet in the boonies on 4th of July. Mik had been bit just under the nose and a second time, two inches lower, on his left lip. We were lucky to get an immediate return call from a local animal hospital. After 3 injections, he was released with further antibiotics. Today the swelling is much down and we hope he's out of danger, though he still looks miserable and is quite lethargic.

Lesson offered:
If you have a hunting dog in snake country, do yourself a favor and get a decent electronic training collar. Get that pup on a snake that is either non-poisonous or dead and make it crystal clear that these are not critters to mess with. A few moments of brief pain will inoculate your pup (and you) from the extended anguish we're currently going thru.
Rich

For comparison, here's the "normal" Mik, prepared for a training session.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13802

The rest were taken within 45 minutes of the snake encounter. Apologies for quality; they were taken in the truck, with a cell phone camera as a buddy rushed us to the vet.


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13798


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13799

Rich Lucibella
July 5, 2005, 04:31 PM
Note the swelling in the neck....that was the one that really had us concerned.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13803


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13804

Like I said: Pups and snakes do not mix!
Rich

Russ5924
July 5, 2005, 06:04 PM
I have two dogs that just won't leave a snake alone. So far they haven't run up against any of the poison ones.We lived in NY and now have moved to FL, I just hope they stay away.In NY I called the dogs in and the one was holding is mouth funny I told him to drop it he spit out about a 16 inch snake still alive how he got that whole thing in his mouth I will never know.Threw it outside and it took of. :p Just glad the wife wasn't around at the time :eek:

Capt Charlie
July 5, 2005, 06:26 PM
Your pup's lucky, Rich. Copperheads are the least venomous of N. American venomous snakes, but they're no slouch, either. At one time, I was an avid collector of snakes, including "hot" snakes. During a force-feeding in the lab, I got nailed in the hand by a Southern Broad-banded Copperhead. Picture someone driving a couple of 20 penny nails into your hand and then pouring battery acid into the holes. That's what it feels like. Copperhead venom contains proteins and enzymes that have hemotoxic, myelotoxic, and cytotoxic effects, but it isn't likely to kill a medium sized, healthy dog. The real danger comes into play in incidents exactly like yours. Dogs are most frequently struck in the face, and the danger is in the swelling obstructing the airway. Later on, the swelling shuts down circulation locally causing "compartment syndrome", that can result in gangrene. The older antivenins made by Wyeth Labs were risky. The risk of anaphylaxis from a reaction to horse serum made it almost as dangerous as the venom. The newer Crofab antivenin is safer, but still carries some risk. But sadly, you'd be surprised at the number of vets that don't keep it on hand. On the bright side, at least you weren't in Africa with puff adders, boomslangs, Russell's Vipers, saw-scaled vipers, mambas and so on and so on and so on. :D

BreacherUp!
July 5, 2005, 06:30 PM
Damn Capt, I'll be sure to PM you next time I have snake problems. Lots of knowledge banging around your brain housing group.
Oh, and glad your dog's OK Rich.

impact
July 5, 2005, 08:42 PM
I'm Glad your Catahoula is going to be ok. I have a Yellow Catahoula that is 7 months old and I just fell in love with the breed. I had two till someone stold the other :mad:

The rancher that has the dogs has a female that looks alot like your male. he told me today to come get the dog! :) . Rocky needs another dog to play with.

I know that a dog can survive a snake bit with no problem but the pics of your dog looked nasty. I'm glad you took him to a vet and he is going to be ok.

I don't know if you ever had catahoulas before? But wait till that dog gets older! he will be your shadow.

Rich Lucibella
July 5, 2005, 10:32 PM
Damn Capt, I'll be sure to PM you next time I have snake problems.
+1

Thanks, Capt, You forgot to mention the Black Mamba. On my second trip to Africa I had one strike into the bed of an open Land Cruiser, with me in back. I was talking to the trackers behind me when it occurred and they suddenly DUCKED!

Lord provides. Snakes have very poor vision and often miss.That one hit the side of the truck.

Impact-
My first. I'm sold!!!
At four months, he's already more concerend about threats to me than threats to him. Great Dog.....please don't tell the AKC!!!!


Rich

azrael
July 6, 2005, 05:28 AM
Capt Charlie,
You would be surprised at how many HOSPITOLS do not keep antivenom on hand for the common copperhead here in NC...

In one of the larger hospitols around here, a youing boy came into the emergency room with a snake bite to the ankle (lastweek)...Turned out a sub-adult copperhead got a chunk of him and he turned symptomatic almost immediately...Well no worries, they can just hit him with the antivenom right?...ahhh then they figured out that they didnt have any on hand...Luckily they found some at another hospitol...

Problem was time...They had to cut him to get the swelling down in several places on his leg before the antivenom got there...Kids gonna have scars from that one for the rest of his life :mad:

BTW...speaking of "hot" snakes (I like corns and kings) there is a dude in Burlington NC that owns a Monocled Cobra as well as a Gaboon Viper...Dude even handles the things alone!!! dude has some issues! :D

Rich,
I worry for your dog...once a dog thinks of something as a "toy" it is hard to break them of the habit...2 or 3 snakes and a shock collar arre really the only way to break him of the habit...


Sweety will be here in 6 weeks!
Sweety (http://www.cornsnakes.net/gallery.php3?id=10)

Rich Lucibella
July 6, 2005, 09:02 AM
Azrael-
The snake that got him is defrosting on the counter now. Shock collar is charging.

BTW, they did not administer antivenom:
- IV Fast Acting anti-inflammatory
- IV Long Term anti-inflammatory
- IV Antibiotics
- Long Term Antibiotics

For humans also, I'm told antivenin is quickly falling out of favor as it's said to cause more problems than it resolves. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020401/1367.html
Rich

xXStarScreamXx
July 6, 2005, 01:06 PM
Eat it, mmmmm i havent had snake in so long.

Makes me miss arizona and the mojave desert in So.Cal

Capt Charlie
July 6, 2005, 01:13 PM
Dave

Splitting of the skin (fasciotomy) sometimes becomes necessary when the swelling of the underlying tissues exceeds the skin's ability to stretch. This compresses the tissue and stops blood flow, causing it to "stagnate" (for lack of a better term) in localized areas, or "compartments", hence the term "compartment syndrome". It's then that it becomes necessary to debride the area. There is some controversy about when to do this. The most graphic pictures you see on the Internet of snakebite are more due to the fasciotomy than they are to the actual effects of the venom. They ain't pretty. The "proper" treatment for snakebite has been revised and revamped so many times, even by medical experts, that it makes me dizzy. Everything from whiskey to potassium permanganate to stun guns to... you name it. Most of 'em did more damage than good. A lot of the outdoor magazines right now are touting the use of a stun gun to neutralize the venom. This is bad news as it doesn't work. The proteins and enzymes that make up venom are super complex and little understood, but one thing is clear: Both proteins and enzymes and held together by strong, co-valent bonds that something like a stun gun simply can't break. The ONLY way to neutralize a venom is to alter its molecular structure, literally turning it into something else that's harmless. That's the tricky part, and one that nobody's figured out how to do yet (at least without killing the patient :D ) The people that swear by a stun gun are forgetting something: Pit vipers can deliver a dry bite (no venom), and in fact do, quite commonly. Venom is precious to a snake. It's his only way of putting dinner on the table, and he won't waste it in self defense unless he absolutely has to. Having said that, there are snakes that do not, ever, deliver a dry bite. Rich's black mamba is one of those. Untreated, they are one of the very few snakes on the planet that have a 100% mortality rate. Their venom isn't the most toxic (Inland Taipan of Australia holds that distinction), but that, coupled with an 11 foot snake that can reach speeds of 14 mph, and can and does actively go after people (only snake on earth that will actually pursue and attack), makes it in my book the most dangerous snake on earth. I would NEVER have one in my collection. Just too dangerous.

Rich,

I'm surprised that they didn't give Benedryl as well. I'm no vet, but please! be careful with long term anti-inflammatories. Especially Rimadyl and Deramaxx. I'm saying that because I lost a dog to them. They destroyed her liver and kidneys, and when I looked into it (too late), I found that these things have killed a LOT of dogs. Don't keep your pooch on it any longer than you absolutely have to. Seems every NSAID out there has some nasty side effects in both dogs and people :( .

Rich Lucibella
July 6, 2005, 04:02 PM
Capn-
Your posts got my curiosity up and so I rechecked my info, which was provided me by the Emergency Vet. Far as I can tell, the newer antivenins (sheep?) carry very little risk of reaction and are indicated in this type of case. I suspect he didn't stock antivenin and that's the reason he claimed it's no longer recommended. (My recollection is that the refrigerated shelf life is quite short.)

I specifically offered for him to keep this pup overnight in order to provide a diuretic and IV fluids. He claimed it wasn't necessary. Turns out, that is also highly recommended. They're now closed for the day, but I assure you I'll know exactly what he was injected come morning. Will post it here and would greatly appreciate your feedback.

Orals are Amoxitabs X 7 days. That, I'm certain, is antibiotic.
Rich

Capt Charlie
July 6, 2005, 04:29 PM
Damned hard to find a good vet these days :( . I am curious to know what he gave your dog in the way of NSAID's.

Actually, antivenin (both Wyeth and CroFab) come in a vial in the form of freeze-dried crystals, and if memory serves, the shelf life is several years. Once it's mixed though, it deteriorates rapidly. Then, I think it's only good for less than a day.

I note that you travel a lot to nifty neato far-off places :D . I think the antivenins for exotic snakes like puff adders (NASTY bite!) is still made from horse serum. You might want to ask your doc about a sensitivity test to horse serum. I used to do it every couple of years when I was messing around with hot stuff. All it involves is injecting a tiny amount of serum under the skin and looking for a localized reaction, and it could save your life if you get tagged miles from help and you need antivenin right away. Just a thought.

Rich Lucibella
July 6, 2005, 04:51 PM
Capt-
Is antivenin available without a script?
Aren't each pretty much snake specific?
Rich

Capt Charlie
July 6, 2005, 05:44 PM
I'm almost certain (been a long time, cobwebs :D ) it takes a 'scrip, but since it's not controlled, that shouldn't be a problem.

Good for more than one species? Good question with a confusing answer, meaning yes and no :rolleyes: . Wyeth Labs made "polyvalent" antivenin, which was supposed to cover all of the Crotalidae and Agkistrodons. Now they're not so sure. It seems that the type of venoms varies wildly even within the rattlesnakes. They now know that the Mojave Green rattler's venom is predominately neurotoxic, with hemotoxins thrown in for spice, where the Southern Pacific Rattler has a predominately cytotoxic venom that causes some really nasty necrosis (similar to the puff adder). I believe (not sure) that antivenin is polyvalent for certain groups of African snakes based on venom similarities, but if you were to cover all your bases, you'd still have to stock a number of different types of antivenin. CroFab is so new that I'm not sure what all species it covers. I note that you're in S. Florida. I'm told that the Miami-Metro-Dade fire department has a special response unit called "venom one". The paramedics that man that unit are experts in snake bite, and stock antivenins for darned near everything with fangs. I think they would be the best available to advise you on what to stock for a particular area, be it S. Florida or S. Africa. I've thought several times of going on a photo safari in Africa and I've always wondered what guide services keep on hand in the way of medical supplies. Academic now though, I fear. Not only would I need a bigger piggy bank, but 9/11 has made me much more reluctant to travel overseas :( .

azrael
July 6, 2005, 07:58 PM
AND if it makes the antivenom problem any better for ya...

Check this out..

In Sept. I can walk into the Herp show in SC and buy a BLACK MAMBA if I have the cheddar...Am I the only one that worries about such things?? THis is the one snake that I have seen make the Croc hunter nervous while handling it...That tells me something!

Although a Coral Cobra might temp me :eek:


ya know...If I were ever gpoing to get into "hots" it would prolly be a copperhead...

Capt Charlie
July 6, 2005, 08:28 PM
Dave

We have one gentlemen in town that has a whole room full of "10 step" snakes. He seems to have a fascination for them, but not a whole lot of sense. He has no antivenin for any of them. I know for a fact he has a Russell's Viper, a Fer-de-lance, and a Gaboon Viper, and the nearest source of antivenin for either is 150 miles away, at the Columbus Zoo. He also has a 23 foot Reticulated Python. I've already told my people that if he has a burglary or something where we'd have to search the house.... he's on his own, but then, I'd imagine a burglar would come running out, screaming.... if he can ;) .

azrael
July 6, 2005, 10:17 PM
He has a Russells AND a Gaboon?? Wow power and size...Dude must have some issues... :D

Rich Lucibella
July 7, 2005, 09:57 AM
Capt-
Here's what Mik was given and what my quick search reveals as the reaons:
IV Desxamethasone: Inflammation
IV Soludelta Cortef: Shock
IV Amoxicillin: Because the two above supress the immune system
Followup Amoxicillin orally for 7 days

Any input on this?
Rich

Capt Charlie
July 7, 2005, 12:36 PM
Sorry to tell you, Rich, but I'm not familiar with either dexamethasone or Soludelta Cortef. I did a little digging and there doesn't seem to be any information on the 'net linking either one directly to the treatment of snakebite. What little I could find seems to indicate that the two are used together frequently, and that both are true steroids and not NSAIDS. That would certainly justify the use of antibiotics since corticosteroids do suppress the immune system. Is there anything else that the vet gave you to give at home? If not, he should be out of the woods by now, although he might act a little goofy from the steroids for a few weeks. How's he doing, by the way?

Rich Lucibella
July 7, 2005, 04:43 PM
Cap-
The oral amoxicillin is the home therapy.

Looks like the vet may have been a moron. The dex and cortef were given for inflamation and shock. Antibiotics to control infection from necrosis or opportunitstic bugs.

Other than that, I suspect he left to pup to his own defenses against tissue damage from the venom. Currently all swelling and tenderness is gone and he's back to his usual terrorizing.

Rich

Capt Charlie
July 7, 2005, 09:51 PM
Glad he's doing OK. I suspect that if the vet had used the same therapy on another venomous species bite, the outcome would have been tragic. I got to thinking earlier today (dangerous! :D ) and remembered back to about a decade ago. I was hunting snakes north of Miami in the drier, palmetto thickets, and the place was crawling with pigmy rattlers. They're tiny, and the rattle's buzz sounds like a cricket. In spite of their size, the venom they produce packs a wallop. Just another one of Florida's goodies you need to watch out for.

Rich Lucibella
July 8, 2005, 08:22 AM
Capt-
Started checking on some of the antivenins yesterday. Crofab, for 4 rattler species, for example:
If you can get it, it's $1800 for a two vial dose (minimum required for 1 bite); needs to be refrigerated in crystal form; and expires in about 2 years.

Multiply that times six or eight potential hot snakes in any given area and you've built up quite an "antivenin budget".
Rich

Capt Charlie
July 8, 2005, 11:15 AM
$1800.?? OUCH! :eek: Looks like it's back to a fifth of Wild Turkey. I'll still die, but at least I'll die happy :D .

Long Path
July 8, 2005, 05:38 PM
I don't know how I missed this thread.

Rich, I'm so glad Doggy-Dog is okay-- that neck swelling is terrifying. Airway is the first danger.

You know, it's funny-- I don't really worry much about copperheads because I've known so many who have gotten bitten on the hands and ankles and not only survived, but didn't even seek treatment. But there's a huge difference between a full-grown man taking a dose of copperhead to a limb and a 20 lb pup taking a double shot to the snout! Miko's lucky to have received care so quick. I'm glad you discovered it so quickly.

buzz meeks
July 10, 2005, 10:17 AM
Thanks for posting this, Rich. I run a Brittany during Montana's four-month-long upland bird season and I always have a sense of dread during the month of September. Rattlers are still very much about. I have totally revised my summer training scheme to take us away from the plains and river breaks where snakes live to the mountains and -gasp- urban parks where serpents are unlikely. Still, some of the best money spent was on a snake break clinic when pup was a year old. Our local sporting dog/NASTRA club brings in a handler with snakes and sets the dog up for some serious electro-aversion therapy. I know of at least two times in the field when such training saved Dixie's life.

Anyhow, I'm glad to hear your own dog is on the road to wellness. That was a harrowing story and a heartbreaking image of you dog's face and throat. The information you posted here may well save some good dogs from an early death. Thank you.

yorec
July 10, 2005, 12:49 PM
Glad your dog's all right, Rich...

Did I mention that there are no venomous snakes where I live? Altitude has it's perks! ;)

Johnny Guest
July 13, 2005, 01:26 AM
I missed the thread, too, and it was started a couple of days before I went out of town for most of a week.

I'm sure glad the MikDawg is doing well. Not only an enthusiastic hunter, but a fine little companion as well. (With some SHARP little teeth!)

Best,
Johnny

Lawyer Daggit
July 13, 2005, 01:43 AM
Glad to hear your dog is alright.

October is Spring in Australia and in the Snowy Mountains it is still quite cold, too cold to be thinking of snakes, but apparently it was warm enough for the Snakes to come out and they were very slovenly.

One of my Shetland Sheepdogs decided to investigate a funny little stick- which reared.

I yelled at him and he backed off and sat down for further instructions.

Snake had got stripes on it that identified him as a Tiger Snake- a very aggressive breed, and a few days later when things were warmer the dog would have been history.

Rich Lucibella
July 13, 2005, 08:14 AM
Lawyer Daggitt-
Interesting that Down Under is where the largest number of dogs are lost to snakes....not surprising that you guys seem to be doing the most work on practical remedy.

In particular, I came across some interesting reading there that swears by the use of 10-15 grams of liquid Vitamin C, intramuscular, as an effective treatment. Given that Crofab Antivenin is just not practical in the field, and Vitamin C has no toxicity levels (excess excreted in the urine), I intend to include this in Miko's survival kit.

Any input from down your way would be greatly appreciated.
Rich

LAK
July 14, 2005, 03:47 AM
Rich,
Huge doses of vitamin C are used to treat some spider bites, and stings like those nasty "asp" catapillars etc IIRC.

beenthere
July 14, 2005, 09:33 AM
Interesting thread. My sons dog (90 lb mutt) was bit in the face when we lived in OK years ago. The vet just gave her an anti-biotic and sent us home. She survived okay but was lethargic for a while.

A gal in our party at Tenkiller Reservoir went in to use the facilities and was bit in the hind end by a copperhead. Don't know what she was treated with at the hospital, but bites were fairly common. I was always extra carefull around the woodpile. Had a rattler in the furnace closet there once. Apparently chased a mouse through the A/C drainage pipe to outside.

One of the kids got nailed by a scorpion when putting his jeans on after swimming at Fort Gibson Reservoir.

I guess we are all more likely to have run-ins with things that crawl and bite than warm blooded animals. My only nose to nose problem with a warm blood was a rabid coon 5-6 years ago, though we are getting a lot of dog packs and coyote the last few years. Seems I always think of them when woods walking and seldom consider joe no shoulders,

Rich Lucibella
July 14, 2005, 10:44 AM
bt-
It's been my experience that most Rattler strikes in the field actually miss. I used to think that this was just poor eyesight. I now think differently. Turns out that a high percentage of bites are "dry"- no venom; and many researchers now believe that snakes can and do calibrate the amount of venom injected.

The theory is that venom is a highly expensive commodity for them and they tend not to want to expend it on critters too large to eat, unless they are truly threatened. It would explain much about "dry" bites and strike misses.

Still, when I see a hot snake in the field, it dies. I DO NOT like snakes.
Rich

Capt Charlie
July 14, 2005, 03:50 PM
I tend to be really cautious about new or holistic remedies. Some work, some don't. I don't know about Vit. C, but my feeling from what I've read so far is that it probably wouldn't hurt, but I wouldn't rely on it solely, either. Every couple of years, someone comes up with a new treatment for snakebite. Usually, they make an erroneous connection between a lack of or minor symptoms from a dry bite with whatever home remedy they were trying at the time. I recommend caution on the Vit. C pending the results of clinical trials.

Capt Charlie
July 14, 2005, 03:57 PM
Down Under has always been an enigma to me when it comes to venomous animals. It seems that every critter there with venom, from box jellies to blue ringed octopus, to Sydney Funnelwebs, to an unbelievable assortment of snakes, is hyper-venomous. Why, I wonder, did Australia's critters evolve with a need for such incredibly potent venoms?

Rich Lucibella
July 14, 2005, 04:04 PM
Capt-
Agreed that there is no need to be reinventing the wheel here.
I'm just concerned about seeing a 70 lb dog hit when I'm 4 miles from a truck and 60 miles from a real vet. At that point, I'll take any edge I can get, so long as there's is no risk of serious side effect. With Vit C I know there isn't.
Rich

buzz_knox
July 15, 2005, 08:36 AM
Down Under has always been an enigma to me when it comes to venomous animals. It seems that every critter there with venom, from box jellies to blue ringed octopus, to Sydney Funnelwebs, to an unbelievable assortment of snakes, is hyper-venomous. Why, I wonder, did Australia's critters evolve with a need for such incredibly potent venoms?

Best guess? Australia was home to some of the last megafauna, so potent venom was a plus for making kills or preventing attacks. Alternatively, there may have been some environmental pressure that made elimination of the recipient vital.

tyme
July 15, 2005, 01:20 PM
Capt, there's growing suspicion that blue-ringed octopi, along with pufferfish and maybe even conefish, are not poisonous by themselves, that instead they're infected with some bacteria (like pseudomonas) that's gotten a gene to produce tetrodotoxin.

Potassium permanganate for treatment of poisoning? I've never heard that one... I suppose it's intended to destroy the venom (through oxidation)? Both that and the stun gun idea are simple in theory. Why don't they work?

Best guess? Australia was home to some of the last megafauna, so potent venom was a plus for making kills or preventing attacks.
There's no defensive advantage: venoms of most sorts don't work fast enough to keep the offending creature from stomping the snake to death.
There's no food-source advantage: megafauna are too big for the snakes to eat, and way too big for the funnel-web or those evil little box jellyfish. Non-poisonous snakes have no trouble finding food, so what selective advantage do Taipans have?

Australia may have poisonous marine life because it has some really cool reefs that offer much more aquatic variety than most costal areas. There are sea snakes, blue-ringed octopi, and box jellyfish in Hawaii, too.

Africa has a variety of unpleasant land animals, too. Australia doesn't have a monopoly there. Since it seems elapids evolved only in the Old World, that alone tilts the field in favor of Africa and southern Asia having lots of poisonous snakes. Europe doesn't have quite so many because it's mostly outside the tropics.

And what the Americas lack in poisonous snakes (and diamondbacks are no joke, not to mention Bushmasters if you're unlucky enough to run into one in SouthAm)... we make up for in hungry sharks, particularly in Florida! :eek: Rich, are you teaching Miko to stay away from salt water? :)

Capt Charlie
July 16, 2005, 01:03 PM
Both that and the stun gun idea are simple in theory. Why don't they work?
Potassium permanganate worked OK. Problem was, it destroyed as much or more tissue than the venom did. As to the stun gun, or ignition coil from a vehicle, the thinking is that it breaks the bonds within molecules that make up the venom. Doesn't work. Venoms are made up of complex proteins and enzymes, and the atoms that make up the molecules are held together via double covalent bonds. VERY hard to break. The voltage sufficient to do that would also break up proteins normally found in tissue as well. I never cease to be amazed at the number of myths and legends surrounding snakes. Volumes of books have been written on just that subject. It's not all bad, though; some are good for a really good laugh :D .

CarbineCaleb
July 16, 2005, 01:19 PM
+1 On Capt Charlie's post - you can't just use gross toxic effects to go after something in your system. The problem is just as he described - if it's not going to affect the venom, then it's no good, and if it will, then it will also affect all the useful components that make up your body. Try drinking a few gallons of bleach to kill your next bacterial infection. It'll work, but it'll take you out as well.

For topical use (on the skin), one can get away with more gross toxicity, because the amount entering the bloodstream is still small (hence the use of iodine to kill bacteria on a surface wound). However, for internal use, whether it's administered orally, inhaled or injected, you need a sophisticated, selective agent. For example, you don't drink a bottle of iodine to treat bronchitis. That's what medicines are all about - a combination of potency and selectivity.

Capt Charlie
July 16, 2005, 09:41 PM
Rich, Some friends over on Mastiffweb came through! I can't vouch for the veracity of all the contents as I haven't had time to go through all of it, but here's the link to a site dedicated to snakeproofing dogs. Hope it helps you and others.

http://www.snakeproofing.com/

Still waiting on a reply about the water snakes.

NorWestr
July 18, 2005, 06:18 AM
Down Under has always been an enigma to me when it comes to venomous animals. It seems that every critter there with venom, from box jellies to blue ringed octopus, to Sydney Funnelwebs, to an unbelievable assortment of snakes, is hyper-venomous. Why, I wonder, did Australia's critters evolve with a need for such incredibly potent venoms?
07-14-2005 01:50 PM
Speaking of venomous critters down under,this is one I'd never of guessed until I saw a Discovery channel special on the subject.
http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/old/mammals/platypus.html

Capt Charlie
July 18, 2005, 04:23 PM
Excellent, highly detailed article! Who would've thunk such a fuzzy, funny-looking critter could deliver such pain? I saw an interview with a fellow that got hit on the Natl. Geographic Channel awhile back, and he described the pain as "beyond exquisite" :eek: . I'll take his word for it. :D

wun_8_seven
July 24, 2005, 10:23 AM
haveing had the mispleasure of being bitten by a copper head myself, i feel for your dog. besides the swelling there is an intense burning pain also asscosiated with the bite. glad he's ok. 187

DucksOnThePond
July 29, 2005, 09:11 PM
I am glad you took the dog to the hospital and that he is doing better. a snakebite can kill a dog but usually the face (where dogs always seem to get bit) swells up and will then burst later on. dog usually survives and you can put ointment on his face. hope you can break him of going after snakes because some dogs seem to go after them after whenever they cross them.