How long do polymer framed pistols last?

[jonathon]

How long do polymer framed pistols last? My dad asked me this, and I have no real answer for it...

Reason he asked(and now I'm curious) is 'cause I'm getting a Glock 17(in about 5 hours!). Still plan to get it and such.. but whats the life expectancy on these things? Is this a gun that I will be passing onto my future kids?

[dickfunk]

I think your question is asked, assuming that one will take care of the firearm properly and keep up on maintenance. If this is the case, they should reach your kids' hands.

[DPris]

This question has come up before. It's not one Glock (or any other maker of polymer guns, to be fair) is interested in pursuing.
Maintenance has little to do with it, the crux of the Glock's overall longevity lies in the degradation over time of the polymer material the frame's constructed of.
Polymer is a form of "plastic", used in a very broad generic terminology. There are many formulations and grades of plastic, including the nylons and other compositions. All begin to degrade in terms of elasticity and brittleness immediately out of the mould. Heat and sunlight can affect the process, and different compositions degrade at different rates, but all are affected. It's roughly similar to metal fatigue in certain alloys and applications.
How long it'll take a polymer frame to degrade to the point where it's no longer safe, or able to resist the various forces involved in cycling the action, is subject to conjecture. 25 years? 50 years? It's been discussed by people who work in the polymer/plastic industry, but I'm not aware of any definitive answer yet. Glocks haven't been around long enough to be seeing a number of frame failures directly attributable to the aging process. I got my first one in 1988 & it's still good, there must be several floating around from about 1985, so it's fair to assume they can hold up for at least 20 years. I'm not sure I'd figure on handing down a 40 year old Glock to the grandkids & expect it to be still viable, but we'll probably have to wait another 20 years to get a better idea.
The polymer Glock uses is strong and pretty stable, but ALL polymers will degrade over time.
Denis

[jonathon]

yeah, thats kind of the impression I get to. Something about how the resins break down over and time and such.. to bad Glock won't come out and garuntee a certain lifetime ;)

If it last 20 years, I'm happy ;)

[Ares45]

Quote from "The World of HK":
Die hard Glock fans might wish that they could claim the original polymer frame pistol. Unfortunately they cannot. The VP70 is the original polymer frame handgun, with a design genesis of 1968.
There are still plenty of the "original" polymer handgun floating around. This is saying somthing considering only 400 were manufactured.

Definition: Polymer
(Greek) "polumers", consisting of many parts
Any of numerous natural and synthetic compounds of usually high molecular weight consisting of up to millions of repeated linked units, each a relatively light and simple molecule.

Polymer frames will last as long as any metal framed guns when properly cared for. Just like steel they have their particular needs. They don't like extended exposure to sun (UV) light. Most manufacturers include a UV inhibitor in the manufacturing process...You'd have to leave your gun outside for months to see a noticable deterioration (think Vinyl siding). Other than that they are extremly strong and chemical/corrosion resisitant. Unlike steel frames they are flexable, self lubricating, and insensitive to moisture and salt. Bullet resistant vests are made from a polymer. The Space Shuttle uses a combination ceramic/polymer in the leading edge heat shields.

[jonathon]

Is there any special care I can give to the frame that is different that a metal framed gun?

[Handy]

If you take a block of plastic and lock it in a dry safe, it might maintain its properties for over a century.

If you expose it to light, less.

Heat does some damage (like being in hot car).

Water vapor, oxygen, pollution will take a seperate toll.

And if you flex it, like Glock frames do, that will cut some more life.


The oldest polymer framed handguns were made 35 years ago, but haven't been shot as much as many of the earliest Glock 17s have been. I think that the answer requires too many variables to nail down. Some may start failing tomorrow, or maybe we have another 20 years before the frames get rubbery, or fracture. Hard to predict.


I don't like paying market price for frame that is cheaper to make than a GIJoe figure, so I don't have to think worry about it - but some people might run into some concerns, eventually.

At least Glock won't have to spend much to replace them.

[CarbineCaleb]

So, I am not a polymer chemist, but a few observations:

- As noted, both oxygen and high energy radiation - say, visible and higher frequencies, damage plastic

- The polymer frame is pretty thick

- Visible and UV radiation (the highest flux) will be absorbed in a fairly short pathlength

- Gas diffusion through the bulk plastic will be very slow

I can't predict the lifetime, but high quality plastics are just incredibly tough, and I sure wouldn't worry about it, unless you are the sort of person who wants to ensure the gun can be passed down through generations. Then, maybe it's worth worrying about. Who knows - it also may turn out that plastics will outlive steel for this purpose. I wonder if there are any polymer engineers on this forum?

[CarbineCaleb]

From the Glock FAQ, I did find this information, reproduced below, as a start:

What is the Glock frame made of?
The Glock frame is made out of a high-tech plastic polymer called nylon 6. Exactly what that means, I don't know. But our resident engineer [MarkCO] was kind enough to provide some explanation:

Commerical price for hi-grade Nylon 6 is about $3.50/lb. Commerical price for hi-carbon steel is about $1.50/lb. Sounds to me like the Glock is actually a better buy. Anyway, I did a little research and got a smattering of information on the Glock plastic "formula". One source says "more highly guarded than the Coke formula". From 3 human and 5 technical sources, Glock uses an out-sourced proprietary hybrid polymer mix with a base of Nylon 6. The frames are cast and offer high strength, wear resistance, abrasion resistance, and good resiliency, good ductility and toughness. Fracture mechanics are excellent with defect ratios below 1. Do not compare to extruded Nylons because it is different. Casting prices range from $3-$50/pound depending on process and intricacy. The Glock is considered highly-intricate due to imbedded metallic components. Offers long term performance at elevated and depressed temperatures. Chemically stable in a majority of environments, attacked directly by strong acids and bases (better than steel actually). UV exposure results in degradation over an extended period of time. 2-3% carbon black virtually eliminates UV degradation and Carbon-Black does not become readily absorbed in Nylons offering higly increased useful life spans. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years. Hyrdolytically attacked by water in excess of 120 degrees. Basically, no hot-tubbing with your Glock and you will be fine. Tupperware is not made from Nylon BTW. Hope this answered some questions.
Good Shooting, MarkCO

[HSMITH]

I had a VERY early G17. It was originally a police academy training gun for a couple years, then was bought by one of the academy instructors that sold it to the cop I bought it from. The cop bought it to shoot and basically beat the snot out of it so his duty weapon stayed fresh (I think he just didn't want to clean the duty gun....). It is unknown how many were put through it at the academy and in private ownership by the instructor, but probably in the tens of thousands. The cop claimed 6000, don't know if it is true or not. I put about 35K through it. With the dubious information prior to my owning it I can't say how many are through it, but would be confident saying well over 40K and possibly up to 80K. It was 100% reliable, even the magazines were still working great. It never was much for accuracy, about 4.5-5" at 25 yards with most any ammo but that is all it would do. As long as it did it every time I really didn't care.

If a gun will last 40K rounds I am happy, PERIOD. I will take much less usefull life for some guns, but a 'duty' type gun should last and hold up well. If it is worn out and beat at 40K I really don't care, I got my money out of it and I will buy another or repair it if possible. I would bet the cost of a new Glock that a G17 will last 40K rounds with minimal repair. For 99% of shooters 40K is enough for several generations.

I have a G22 now that has over 9000 rounds through it, about 150 factory 180's and the rest factory + power handloads. Problems so far don't exist as far as reliability, it hasn't missed a beat. I did have an upper locking block pin broken that did not affect function, that cost me a whopping $2 to buy and press into place. I bought 7 magazines within a couple weeks of getting the gun, all are 100% at this point and working well.

The way I see it and read it nasty chemicals and UV light are the things to really avoid with a Glock to keep it in great shape, not too hard to manage.

With a Glock you can buy ALL of the small parts and still be well under $100 and probably under $50 if you put a little effort into it, that is a pretty reasonable budget to keep the gun running for a lifetime.

I don't really like the Glock per se, but I darn sure respect them, enough to have one for a house gun or grab if there is a problem.

[packa45]

I'm not to worried. If the time comes when my polymer pistol is wore down it has a lifetime replacement guarantee. :D

[jonathon]

Good point. Glock should be in business for a while ;)

[bergie]

jonathon,
Armorall? :D

bergie

[Stupid]

Being a chemical engineer for 10 years and studied polymers for 16, not to say my answer is authoritative, just an opinion.

Nylon-6 is very sensitive to moisture, heat and sunlight (UV) (actually most polymers are). If you shoot your gun too much at one time, it will melt at about a little above 200C. You can easily find the Nylon-6's melting point on Google - just basic physics.

A well protected polymer can easily last 20 years or more. 'Protected' meaning: minimal exposure to sunlight, completely opaque and heavily colored with black (the best UV inhibitor), stored in a dry and cool place.

But, no matter what you do, plastic guns are just not as durable as steel guns.

[Mike40-11]

A chemical engineer I am not, but I am an automotive plastics engineer.

Nylon 6 is commonly used in the automotive industry. It is considered an "engineering polymer". (Funny how, when it's in something expensive, it's a "polymer" instead of a "plastic". Plastic sounds cheap I guess. Same thing though. :D ) This generally means it is stronger, more stable and consistent than what are called "commodity" plastics - like tupperware( :rolleyes: ) or pop bottles.

It is obviously not as strong or tough as steel, but is more than adequate for a handgun frame. You just have to use more of it - that's why plastic frames are chunky. There are tons of different varieties and Glock's is, I'm sure, proprietary. It is almost certainly glass filled, probably in the 40% range and probably mineral filled as well. The glass, in the form of very small short fibers (millimeters) dramatically increases the strength and the mineral (mica is common, but many others are used) increases the wear resistance and hardness. (Yes, plastic does have a hardness, although you sure can't measure it on the Rockwell C scale. :) )

Durability is a different issue. It's easier to damage - you can tear it up pretty good with a knife although in something as thick as a handgun frame, you sure can't bend or break it with much less force than it would take to damage a steel frame.

Wear resistance - nylon will wear faster than steel, although not as much as you might think, maybe not even enough to make much difference in usable life. It has good lubricity (that's why the grip surfaces are textured) and the fact that the steel of the slide is much harder than the plastic actually helps. The worst wear comes from two parts of very similar hardnesses rubbing. That's why the early stainless autos had galling problems, the slide and frame weren't dissimilar enough.

As far as melting goes, nylon-6 has a melt range from about 420 F to as high as 550 F, depending on the type. Would take a lot of shooting to get that hot :rolleyes:

All that being said, plastic WILL degrade over time as the volatiles leach out of the material. This takes a long time (decades), but that is a major difference over steel.

So will they last 50 years? Probably. 100 years? maybe, but I wouldn't expect it. Steel framed guns CAN last that long and many have, but really, how many are well maintained enough to do so? Metal wears too... (and rusts :eek: )

[Stupid]

I would like to see a torture test just like what they did to M9 - 5000 rounds a group, 15000 total. Personally, I don't think Glock will last.

Of course, if you keep it in a safe, out of sun, with AC on and minimal humidity, it will out last you.

[Mike40-11]

I would like to see a torture test just like what they did to M9 - 5000 rounds a group, 15000 total. Personally, I don't think Glock will last.

Oh, I think it would, but I'm sure some Glock folks will get on a talk about how many they've put through theirs.

A Glock-o-phile I am not. I'm a 1911 guy. But it's not because I think the plastic frame is weak. I do have a tactical tupperware (I just like the sound of that for some reason :D ) Ruger that does me alright.

Mostly I just don't like the way they fit and shoot for me. That and the rabid hype from some folks.... Gaston Glock is NOT the second coming of anything....

[Seven High]

I believe that firearms writer Chuck Taylor conducted a durability test on a Glock 17. It was still running after in excess of 100,000 rounds. :)

[CarbineCaleb]

Mike40: Thanks for all the helpful information - great post! :D

[Mike40-11]

Carbine:

No problem, give any engineer an excuse to blather on about what they do and you'll probably hear more than you ever wanted to...

[JohnKSa]

Stupid,

From what I've read, the addition of carbon black to the Glock frame material provides enough UV resistance a Glock frame will be virtually unaffected after 100 years of sunlight exposure.

As far as moisture, isn't it a bit twisted to tout steel over plastic due to plastic's "sensitivity to moisture." ;)

Internet search confirms that Nylon 6 won't melt until it gets up around 430F (around 220C). I don't think I can hold onto a gun frame that is 200 degrees F, let alone 430 degrees, but I'll keep it in mind! :D

[packa45]

In about 30 years we will see many 50 year old polymer pistols still shooting strong. A thread like this will no longer be relevant.

[jonathon]

Someone send me 5000 rounds of 9mm, and I'll shoot it all in one session without cleaning :D

[SR420]

Hey Stupid, check this (http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=13658) out :cool:

[gudel]

I would like to see a torture test just like what they did to M9 - 5000 rounds a group, 15000 total.

According to these people here (http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html), USP passed that silly test without a problem. Let lodge a bullet and fire it up like they did to the USP here (http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html) and I'd be interested to find out what happens to the beretta.

[hknut]

Jonathan to anwsear your question about plastic pistols, Glock :barf: has one out there that has well over 500,000 rounds thru it. HK started the trend back in the late 1960's, so I would say at least 30+ years and still counting!

HK original combat plastic!

[sm]

Though I prefer the steel or steel / aluminum guns, I do have a Keltec P-11.
I kept this one after being asked to "tear it up" . I kept this one for a 'niche' gun after the T&E. I really did try to tear this one up. Best I figure ~ 20k rds thru this one. I recently put 2k rds in two days time thru it.

It is simply a tool that fills a niche. I inspect and maintain. At some point - same as I would with a steel, or steel/ aluminum firearm, either get it fixed or render it unable to be used so as to not cause injury , harm or worse to myself or another.

I don't worry about it. I just take the responsiblity to inspect and maintain.

[akadave]

I dont think durability is ever going to be an issue. I think its longevity that is at question. I have several firearms that are over 100 years old and near mint or at least in lightly used condition. I have platic and polymer objects that I have had for several decades that have all but crumbled in my hands when I used them (none firearms). That being said I dont think you will see many original polymer framed guns in antique collections being fired unless they replicate the frame as a replacement part way into the future.

[jmr40]

Plastics 1st came into wide use around WW-2. There are still plastic items from that era that are usable. Put a plastic pistol on the roof of your house where it is exposed to direct sunlight all day, every day and it may fall apart before a steel gun rusts. But my guns aren't stored in direct sunlight.

[Chubbo]

I am not a Plastic authority, but I have a deep seated hatred of anything made of it. In answer to your question, how long should your, soon to arrive, plastic Glock last? my guesstimate, based on the badly disintegrating plastic siding on my house, The completely disintegrated plastic horse fence around the horse farm next door, the clouded over headlight lenses on my camper, I wouldn't suggest using your glock in daylight, but since you state that you will be satisfied with a twenty year life span for it, I think that if you keep it in a temperature, controlled, moisture, controlled environment, away from your pets, and the critters outdoors, Solvents, certain kinds of oils, and grease, and excessive firing, and pray for it, you just might get the twenty years use that you claim that you will be satisfied with.
Chubbo

[DPris]

11-year-old thread?
Denis

[Wadcutter45]

Eleven year old thread brought back to life.

But the thread is about longevity, and they were talking about 20 year old Glocks back then. Now those pistols are 30 years old.

So, anyone have a progress report? How are those old Glocks doing?

[DPris]

My 1988 17's still holding up. :)
Denis

[osbornk]

I think if the guns are kept in the conditions that thoughtful owners keep their guns, the "plastic" will last several lifetimes. They would go to pot pretty quickly if left out in the humidity and sunlight but they will still last longer than the rusting metal ones.

[DPris]

Might last several, but won't be functional once the polymer degrades to a certain point.
Denis

[damienph]

Interesting thread, even if it was revived from 2005. My issue isn't if my XD9 and XD40 will still be around and/or too degraded to be functional in another 20 years, but currently at age 62, will I be?

[reddog81]

Another 10 years has passed since the plastic pistols hit the market and failures appear to be just as common now as they were 10 years ago (not many). I would think well used police trade-ins would start to see degradation much quicker than average given they are exposed to the elements on a daily basis but I haven't ever heard of any problems.

[DPris]

Degradation will occur over time.
The only question is how soon.
It can be accelerated by exposure to sunlight & chemicals, but it'll happen just sitting, eventually.
Denis

[PSP]

Degradation will occur over time.

That is true of every thing on earth and certainly both metal and plastic guns. A few famous long term, high round count tests of many different polymer framed pistols has put to bed the question "will they last?" There is no doubt.

Do most metal pistols last 100,000 rounds? I don't recall reading about tests of that many rounds in metal.

[DPris]

Old argument & I'll get out of this one by saying yes- they'll "last", but they won't retain structural integrity over several lifetimes & those polyframes won't remain functional as long as steel frames.

They have not been around long enough to answer the question.
Check back in another 50 years & the answer will be more valid. :)

Round count is not the issue.
Denis

[Spats McGee]

Begone, necrothread! Go back to the grave from whence you came!