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TMC
September 5, 1999, 04:27 PM
Anybody have any good soft shooting 45LC handloads? My dad and I have been experimenting with 250 RNFP bullets and Bullseye 2400 and Unique Most of these shoot pretty sharp (read recoil). The 2400 is soft shooting but pretty erattic as far a velocities go (510 to 635 fps with the same charge size) guess thats what you get with slow magnum powder in a large case. I heard one guy talking about 150grain bullets Unique but 45 bullets that light are hard to find. Any sugestions?

Long Path
September 5, 1999, 08:48 PM
Try 6.0 g. of Unique with a 230gr LRN for about 700 fps. This is a real load, not some "poofter" load, but it's extremely comfortable. To give you an idea, we use 6.5g of Unique with a 230gr LRN for .45 acp, which has a much smaller case capacity, for duplicate factory ballistics (~840 fps).

It also has that lovely smoky look to it that is very appropriate to Cowboy shooting; there's something about Unique and lubed lead bullets that makes a pretty smoky combo.

Universal Clays, 231, and H110 also are okay. (U. Clays smokes less...)

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited September 05, 1999).]

TMC
September 5, 1999, 10:25 PM
Thanks I'll try it. How do you think it'll work with 250 grain bullets? I bought 2000 at the last gun show so I want to find some good combo.

sjones
September 9, 1999, 04:58 PM
Try 6.5 grains of unique and the 250 rnfp. I shoot those for plinking and target practice. That combination is very accurate in my black hawk and has no recoil at all.Any loading between 6 and 8 grains works real well.

Bill Mitchell
September 9, 1999, 07:57 PM
Howdy TMC,

While there is no defined minimum required velocity,the preferred minimum is 650 fps. I shoot a 200 gr. RNFP bullet with 6.0 gr. of Titegroup. Titegroup is designed to be insensitive to position in the case,and thus is an ideal powder to use in large cases,as velocities are very consistent. I would hesitate to use a bullet lighter than 200 gr.,but I know some folks who use 185 gr. bullets. IMHO,anyone wanting to use a 150 gr.
bullet needs to be shooting .38's.

Bellicose Bill

TMC
September 9, 1999, 11:33 PM
Thanks much all, we'll load some up the try'em!

rw2astan
September 12, 1999, 09:29 AM
I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with W296 powder in reduced loads.
Winchester warns not to reduce there listed maximum loads as excessive pressures may develop. Is this true of ball powders in general? Does H110(suposedly the "same powder") have the same warning?
I load .44Mag. & .45 Colt with the 296 and want to reduce the listed loads somewhat, but the warning must be there for a reason. By the way, I'm using the Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt with some strong hunting loads, that's why I use 296(lower pressures/higher velocities) at pressures I found listed at about 25,000 psi, very safe for the Ruger only & certainly not safe in the Colt Clones.
I'm using Unique & Universal for my cowboy loads but want somthing in between the cowboy & the max. for just some fun shooting.
2400 is not good for cowboy loads and I find that reducing this powder from its listed max leaves even more unburned powder behind.
Love the 240SWC & up to 300RNPP bullets in both calibers. Again my main concern is reducing the 296 loads.
Any input or discussion is greatly appriciated!
Thanx in advance.

P.S. Just thought I'd let you Know I'm on my way up to the farm to do some shooting with my Rossi 92 stainless steel .45 I picked up yesterday. Sure is a good looking gun, can't wait to shoot it.

swifter...
September 13, 1999, 10:02 PM
rw2astan,
Don't reduce the 296 loads. Change propellants. 296 needs a certain pressure level to burn properly, and it will do weird things outside it.
A friend of mine found he had not only a lead SWC stuck in his barrel, he also had a bunch od (reduced) 296 packed against it.
OTOH, a pressure excursion is very likely, so he was lucky that he only had to figure out how to get the unburned powder and the stuck bullet out of the barrel. He might have been trying to get gun parts out of his face...


------------------
The Bill of Rights, and the Golden Rule are enough for civilized behavior. The rest is window dressing. Shoot carefully, swifter...

Paul B.
September 18, 1999, 09:53 PM
RW2ASTAN. Do not under any circumstances reduce your W-296 loads. On H-110, I believe Hodgden states not to reduce the load more than three percent. These guys are experts and the are not kidding. You could blow up your gun.
I normally do not give loads on the forum, but in your case I will break my rule.
In .44 Spl. cases, 240 gr. cast lead bullet with gas check, or plain base, 7.5 gr. Unique. Using .44 Magnum brass, 8.5 gr. Unique, same bullets.
In .45 LC, try 8.5 gr. Unique with a 250 gr. bullet. These are all good accurate loads that work in five .44's, and in four .45 LC's. Winchester large pistol primer in all load. Magnum primers are not necessary.

TMC. If you have read this far, try 7.0 gr. W-231 with a 230 gr. bullet in .45 LC. Accurate, and very pleasant to shoot.
Hope this helps out.
Paul B.

joet47
December 12, 2005, 06:44 PM
My experience with titegroup powder has been very good in the .45 colt. I use 6.3 grains of titegroup with the 200 gr RNFP bullet for decent velocity, good accuracy and low pressure.

Smokin_Gun
December 12, 2005, 08:48 PM
I got a real good load, W-W cases W-W primers, 30gr of Goex FFFg, 255gr FP soft lead. Colt 3rd generation 1st Model Dragoon...
Target 25 yards.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/DragTar.jpg

MPP1423
December 12, 2005, 09:59 PM
I Use 7-7.5 Grn Of Hp38 By Hogdon With A 200 Rnfp And It Has Good Accuracy And Light Recoil.

Old Dragoon
December 12, 2005, 10:06 PM
I am getting ready to handload the 44 Remington loading of the 44 Colt. This is a 248 Grn Outside lubed heeled bullet, 30 grns. BP in 44 Colt(Starline)Win. Large Pistol Primers..
This will be loaded also with 4.5 to 5 grns. Unique for a smokeless Cowboy load of 650 FPS.

I would load this with 38 Grn in a cut down rim 44 Mag case...but the darn things poke their little noses out the mouth of the chamber. (Kirst 44 Rem Konverter)

I can load 35 grn in a 44 Special case with the rim turned down and that will approximate the original 45 LC of 35 Grn. BP and a 250 Grn Bullet and these keep their noses just inside the chamber mouth. . I intend to persue this loading.

All of the gear for the original 44 Rem loading of the 44 colt(for 1875 Remington or Remington conversion...And the Kirst 44 Remington Konverrter(crimper die, Sizer Lubricator dieand the bullets) are available at Old West Moulds,1175 17 1/4 Rd. Fruita, CO 81521.

MPP1423
December 13, 2005, 12:54 AM
Dragoon,
Since You Brought It Up,i'd Like To Say Again That Your Conversion Is Just Awesome!!!!! It Looks 100 Yrs Old And I Wish I Had The Know How To Make Mine Look As Well As Yours But I Doubt It!! I Will Have One Of The Frist Coverter Though In .45 But I Want To Shoot .45 Scholfield In Mine.i Have Never Fired This Round But I Think Thats My Choice.what Do You Think About This Round Dragoon?

Old Dragoon
December 13, 2005, 01:30 AM
The 45 schofield is a shorter case than 45LC, one reason that the 45 Schofield was not used by the Army very long. You could not interchange the rounds. The 45 Schofields were on the loosing end of that deal. The Colts and Remingtons could use the 45 Schofield and the 45LC, but not the other way around. Fell from favor very quickly. That is the extent of my knowledge of the 45 Schofield.

Either will round work in the 45LC Kirst Konverter.

Perhaps Mec Or Smokin Gun can supply more info. My preference of the two would be 45 LC since you can buy that load in Cowboy FPS (less then 1000FPS) but if you're going to reload then it doesn't make any difference except the number of grns you can cram into the case(BP that is).

I just found a 44 S&W spl. case, turned down the rim and can load 35 Grn.3FG BP with the 248 Grn Old West 44 Rem bullet. and it, for sure, just clears the chamber mouth. This load approximates the original 45 LC, but in 44 Rem.

MPP1423
December 13, 2005, 08:06 AM
Thanks Dragoon!i Did Plan On Reloading Them Cause I Already Reload The 45 Colt.i Just Thought I'd Try Something Different For A Change.i Would Most Likely Reload With The 777.i Load My 45 Colt's W/25-30 Grs Of 777 And A 200 Gr Rnfp Bullet .i Also Take Up The Space With Wads.this Load Shoots Great.

Musketeer
December 13, 2005, 11:22 AM
I use 6.3 gr of Unique, CCI 300 LP Primers and a 250 gr RNFP for 45 Colt loads in my Uberti Cattleman (SAA clone). I have had good accuracy with it and it has been consistent. Alliant Powder lists the load as 6.0 - 7.5 max (I believe, confirm it on their website) for the 250gr 45 Colt. I settled on 6.3 as I am using a LeePro 1000 and the powder disc is a little limited in fine tuning. Using the .76 size disc gives me 6.3 grains. The next size, .82, is right up around the max. That beats up a SAA clone a little too much for my comfort.

One word of advice, WATCH FOR DOUBLE CHARGES. That is a big case you are loading and the smokeless powders are much more efficient. If you double charge you may not overflow the case, so you really need to keep both eyes on the job.

Smokin_Gun
December 14, 2005, 02:42 AM
Old Dragoon, the Kirsts will take Schofield .44's the old version R&D drop-ins will not unless modified to accept the Schofield rim, but it has been done. I believe I was told the New R&D drop-in 6 shot will accept the Schofield. The new ones have a nurled ring around the cylinder. my Dragoon is the old style and is smooth and has the slots where you can see if there is a case in a chamber or not. I perfer the .45LC as I can load it any way I want. The Schofield has a limited max and that's one reason the Military rejected them...the other reason was that Colt beat them to it.
Do you use healed or hollow base bullets in the .44-40? I'm sure you do, but more wondering where you get them or the mold from, just curious.

Old Dragoon
December 14, 2005, 09:17 AM
SG,
Nope they are .451 Dia Drive band, X ,429 dia heel X .248 grn. heeled bullets with crimp groove and 3 driving bands, two lube grooves RFN.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c83/1Old6Dragoon1/AmmoComparison-1.jpg

44 Colt Bear Creek, .451 ball/44 Rem Mag case, 44 Rem./Colt

They are the 44 Rem/Colt 30 Grn.s BP This is the authentic load for original Remington and Colt Conversions discontinued in 1895. Old West re-introduced thois load for new Rem. conversions. I see no reason,that they would not work in new colt conversions as well..,except that no one makes a 44 Colt conversion Cylinder for the large colts. The new 44 Colt open tops take a .439 (the bear Creek shown) as they are not the original open top/conversion .451 groove cal.

Smokin_Gun
December 14, 2005, 09:28 AM
I can't remember if you mentioned what barrel you have for your Rem. Is it a
.429" type .44 barrel or do you use the standard barrel that came with it .452 x .440?

Old Dragoon
December 14, 2005, 09:35 AM
It's the bbl that came with the gun flat off the net. I'm not about to change bbls...yet. I slugged the bbl and it is closer to .451. X .439 Nom BP cylinder chambers shave just a bit off .451 balls.

Smokin_Gun
December 14, 2005, 09:43 AM
I'm cornfusin myself here. Bare with me please? Is it a .44 special conversion you have? I wa sthinkin it was .44-40, you know the bottle necks. I should a known better...they offer .44spl/.44 russian correct? The pics helped my mind get straight.

Old Dragoon
December 14, 2005, 09:52 AM
I think they do, but mine is marked 44 colt (on the box) Konversion (called 44 Rem in Kirst Litature. You load the original 44 Rem bullet to shoot in the '58 from Uberti and Pietta.
Nope not 44-40.
The 44 colt bullet from Bearcreek almost falls thru the bbl with minor, if any land marks, but for some reason they did shoot pretty well. at 15 yds. must have expanded just enough. anyway i have abour 450 of those loaded up and I either shoot them up or pull them and save the BP and cases and can the bullets. They are for the 1872 new Open tops. I owned one but could not keep it tight and sold it to a guy that said he'd work with the looseness....I wouldn't.

Smokin_Gun
December 14, 2005, 10:01 AM
Is it the Drop -in cyl. from Kirst like this one, 6 shot .44Rem 248gr heeled bullets? http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/konverterdropin.html

I really like the 6 shot idea, that's why I didn't get Kirst in .45LC only 5 shot. I'd rather have 6 shots R&D and it be the Civil War style Drop in.

Old Dragoon
December 14, 2005, 10:02 AM
That's the one!

Smokin_Gun
December 14, 2005, 10:09 AM
Good same page now...I like that one. The heeled bullets must obstate(I think that's how you spell it) enough to grip the rifling just fine. Expand the bullet is what I'm tryin ta say. So I take it you're happy with it....

Old Dragoon
December 14, 2005, 11:15 AM
Yep , so much so I'm buying another one soon for the other gun. I wanted something other than 45LC and Six Holes, I'll choose which to leave empty, thank you. Actually The bullets leave the chamber at .451 Dia. ogive/band and 2 driving bands (before expansion). This Is the original cal and bullet for the original Rem. conversions and Colt Conversions as well.
Forcing cone opens to the lands and grooves, The heel may expand also as all bullets l expand to some degree so it is the best match.I hadn't slugged the bore with the new bullets. I just did and sure enough the band on the ogive drives also so there are 3 driving bands.

Smokin_Gun
December 14, 2005, 03:06 PM
Ok I think I got it now. The .44 Colt cases O.D. chamber at .451 and the bullet rings are .451 not .429 like a .44spl is. So if a barrels bore is .452 there is merely a .001 diferance. Have I got that right? And the brass is just Called .44Colt or .44Rem or .44Rem/Colt... This is something that has been a question in my mind for a spell. I couldn't corrolate the .44 with the .450 barrel, cause I was thinkin .44spl. I knew I wasn't too old to learn sumfin.HeHe!

Old Dragoon
December 14, 2005, 03:47 PM
SG,
The cases for 44 Rem are 44 Colt by Starline. .451-.452 outside dia Nom. the bullet is what makes it 44 Rem. The inside dia.of the cases are .429 (same Dia as heel Dia. of the .248 grn bullet so you bell the case just a might, seat the bullet and crimp or not. the bullet is tightenough inside the case so as not to need crimping. The Cartridges do not come apart in the chambers during firing. I have fired them both ways..
This the original loading for 44 Remington conversions and Colt Conversions.
This was made and sold by Remington(UMC?) Remington conversions and Colt conversions until 1895. This , I believe is the same as the original 44 CF, so they interchange between Colt and Rem. Since 1940 or so the 44 Colts made after this(None made between 1900-1940 as I recall) the new 44 Colt is .439 grooves. As I understand it.The 1872 Colt Open top clones shoot this bullet, but the original Colt Open Tops shoot the 44 Rem. Because they were .451 Nom Grooves. As I understasnd it, all 44 CF conversions of original 44 C&B revolvers had .451 grooves.

You are right. the 44 Colt bullet shouldn't shoot in the Rem.451-452 bbl, but for some reason the ones I have here did shoot pretty well. now whether it was tip up (expansion) of the bullet or the fouling in bbl...I haven't a clue.
Clear as mud , now. Right?

Smokin_Gun
December 15, 2005, 03:48 AM
No not mud at all I got it...I like th 1895 original part too. Thanks for takin the time to explain all that jargon to an old soldier...:cool: