Did I do something wrong? Range question

[RCPractitioner]

I have been to the rifle range much to many times in my life to count, however, my most recent trip has me perplexed and I am looking for opinions. I arrived at the range (a range that I frequent) during a cease fire and went downrange to hang a couple targets. Afterwards I took my rifle out of the truck (magazine out, chamber open) and placed it in the rifle racks along with everyone else's rifle. I then took my ammunition out of my shooting bag and placed it on the bench to secure the bench I wanted. As I placed my ammo on the bench the rangemaster some distance away hollers: "everyone behind the line"! I obey, go behind the line and wait until he says the range is hot you may commence firing. So I pick up my rifle lock and load and begin firing. As I'm shooting someone taps me on the shoulder, it's the rangemaster. He leans down and says "do you understand that there is no handling of weapons with people downrange?". I reply yes and he says "good if I see it again you're out of here". I reply back I was never handling a weapon with people downrange, and he insist that he "saw" me do it. I tried to explain that the only handling I did was to remove my rifle from the truck and place it in the rack. The rangemaster (an elderly gentleman with thick glasses whom must be new because I have never seen him before) gets in my face and proceeds to scream like a drill sergeant "HEY, I saw you do it! You should have left the rifle in the truck until the range was hot. Do you have any questions!". I am at this point feeling both humiliated and more than a little ticked off. I figure out that this guy is pointless to argue with or try to convince otherwise so I sternly reply "no". To this he continues his YELLING "Good, if you do have any other questions refer to rule #2!" he points to a sign with rule #2 stating: "The rangemaster is in charge". I for one have never had anyone question my gun safety and it quite frankly bothers me that he did as I have always considered myself very safe and responsible with firearms. If I had done something wrong I am the type of person who is quick to apologize and recognize mistakes. I have never been to a range where you cannot remove your weapon from your vehicle until the range is hot. It would have been one thing if I had gone to bench and fiddled with the rifle but I simply moved it from the truck to the racks which are far behind the firing line. From anyone else's perspective was what I did wrong and how should I have handled the situation any differently? I really did not appreciate this old geezer getting in my face and yelling at me like a child. Any comments/suggestions?

[Puppy]

RO nazi's are great arnt they?

We have one at our range too, while I agree it may have seemed a bit harsh, they (the RO's) are there to prevent potentially deadly accidents from happening - which means strict enforcement of the rules with no exceptions.

This doesnt mean I agree with him, I am mearly pointing out that he thinks its his job to keep the range safe - even if he is a bit too aggressive, he is still doing what he believes is the correct thing to do.

[treeprof]

Hmm. It seems to me that, whether they're hanging targets or at the benches on a hot line, those other shooters are always gonna be "downrange" from the new guy walking up to the line w/his rifle.

[novus collectus]

The guy was wrong and IMHO, so were you. The rule was not meant for people like you, it was meant for those people that are new or dangerous. If they kept the rule strict when it came to handling guns while cold, then they would prevent a new guy from taking out his already loaded rifle and, without anyone having a chance to stop him, slam his rifle on a shooting table pointing down range while people were setting up targets. This is just one scenario of many and if you can imagine an idiot doing this, then you can understand that the rule was not really for you but should be followed for sake of continuity IMHO.

The way the range safety officer treated you was wrong too. Just what people need when handling dangerous equipment is to feel nervous and rattled :rolleyes: (just in case you don't know, the " :rolleyes: " means "sarcasm". I didn't know that is what it meant for the first 3 weeks posting on TFL and that is why I am pointing this out)

[redhawk41]

RCPractitioner, i understand how you feel. i remember the first time i was chewed out by the RO. just remember he is there for the sake of you and everyone elses safety.

one outdoor range i go to has a very thick and obvious white line painted on the ground that one is not to cross when the range is cold.

if you can't follow this simple rule then find somewhere else to shoot. the rule and the line is there for a reason.

[Rigmarol]

The RM is there to protect the lives of the shooters and spectators. (you know that)

No matter how many times you go to this or any range it is unsafe to handle a weapon with people down range. (you SHOULD know that too)

Gun owners can be a rough testosterone soaked group of people who get their egos out of kilter over the smallest things when it comes to their guns.

It sounds like you were throwing out some sort of "vibe" that made the RM zero in on you. He did right to firmly instruct you. If you would have said "sorry, it will not happen again." in your best "I screwed up" attitude. I'd bet a dollar you wouldn't have gotten the drill sgt. treatment.

If I had been downrange I would NOT have felt good watching you approach with a firarm in your hands.

You can save a bench just as easily by pointing to it and saying "I've got that one" if someone makes a move on it.

I don't like being yelled at either and have gotten the "drill sgt." treatment myself over something as stupid as fishing brass out of the brass bucket. But I disarmed the situation by swallowing my ego and appologizing. He yelled a little more to get the point hammered home and I humbly went back to my shooting. (I still don't know what the deal was but he was in charge)

Bottom line, The RM is in charge. Otherwise someone will get hurt.

[Corolla]

I belonged to about 5 ranges right now and all enforce the rules no handling of firearms at all when cease fire or crossing the line. He was just trying to enforce the rules maybe a little harse but im sure he meant well. I've dealt with people breaking safety guidelines and its quite scary, had a leo (please no offense guys) that when he did his hip withdraw he would point the gun to the right side well i was standing there one day last time that was allowed on range no more hip draws, im consontrating on what im doing i don't want to have to worry about the guy next too me.Thats where the RO's come in as our eyes while we enjoy our sport safely.
Please LEO's don't take offense i just used this cenario since this is a person who should be proficant with firearms just like the one in the video in kids classroom( loaded gun in a classroom).

[BillCA]

I had one of the range nazis hassle me for moving my guns inside their aluminum transport cases off the line during a cease fire. I asked why they permitted people to carry said cases ONTO the range during a cease fire, but not OFF the range. "We don't permit ANY guns moving around on or BEHIND the lines during a cease fire --PERIOD!"

Really? You'd best start leaving that holstered range gun in the office during cease fire then. That bothered him!

[RCPractitioner]

Perhaps y'all are right and I shouldn't have gone on the defensive and just sucked it up. It was natural reaction though to something I didn't percieve as wrong and/or dangerous, and it would have felt like I was admitting guilt to something I didn't do. However, if he thought I was handling a weapon in an unsafe manner with people downrange I wish he would have addressed me at the moment he thought he saw it instead of after the fact so that I could have addressed the problem then. IMO it's not wrong to unload your weapon from your vehicle during a cease fire. Even when the range is hot I would have been unloading a weapon with people in front of the truck. What about all the guys unloading their shotguns from their vehicles behind us for the skeet stands? Maybe they should also have to wait until the line is hot, maybe noone entering the range should be allowed to exit their vehicle during a cease fire because they may be carrying concealed. Last but not least if the rule is not to unload weapons from your vehicle during a cease fire then why isn't it on the board with the same rule about the rangemaster?

[EricO]

RCP, the rule at one local range where I live is not just no handling firearms, but no handling firearms OR ANY benched equipment during a target change. In fact, no one is allowed to stop at a bench, but merely to pass through to go travel out to the target array. It makes people much more comfortable when they turn around and heading back towards the benches, see no one stopped there fiddling around with anything, firearm or not. At the moment he insisted that you were handling a firearm and you say you weren't, you were at the bench ahead of the line. That alone makes people tense.

EricO

[RCPractitioner]

The rifle never crossed the line or went to the bench during the target change, the rifle went from the truck to the rack and never left until range hot was called. The rifle went into the rack (not the bench, the bench is the actual shooting station from which you fire) the rack is a simple device made to hold the weapon during target changes and it places the muzzle pointing straight up into the air, this rack is far behind the line.

[DennisD]

RCPractitioner, first let me start by saying I’m trying to give an objective view. Yes you did some things differently than they should have been done. Did you have the rifle in a case when you placed it in the rack? If not then you were handling the weapon during a cease fire (I know you are safe and have been doing this for a long time but think about the guys next to you and the “new” range officer who don’t know you). Next you walked up to the bench to place your ammo there during the cease fire. At the range I go to you do not approach the bench during cease fire. You are behind the line until it is hot (only crossing to place targets but never handling anything on the bench, again think about the next guy who doesn’t know you or your safety practices). You argued with the range officer. Would you argue with a cop at a crime scene? The range officer is there to make sure everyone has a good and safe shooting experience. And lastly, the RO talked (hollered) with you during the hot line because at that time he was not as preoccupied with watching the range for violations of safe procedure. If I’m looking at this wrong, someone correct me. I’ve been at the range a few times when I wished the RO would have hollered at some of the shooters for unsafe practices.

[Trip20]

At my local range, there is no cease fire unless your on the pistol range. All the other range stations have trenches with fortified walls on either side which are 15 feet high.

To change our target you walk down the trench to the 50, 100, 300 yrd marker (where ever your target is placed), and spin this thing around (picture a windmill) and pull your target off. You then put a new one in it's place, and spin the "windmill" back up until it locks in the shooting position.

You do all this while people are pounding 338's down range. This place is run by the DNR!

I'm glad I do not have to deal with cease fires and the like. I have been to ranges that have them and I enjoy this one much more.

Personally I think you didn't do anything wrong with handling your weapon from the truck to the rack (providing there is no sign that dictates doing the same is a violation). I'm sure you maintained muzzle control and carried the firearm safely.

The only thing you did wrong was cross the line to lay your ammo (not weapon) on the bench. While this definitely deserved mention from the range officer, in my opinion his delivery needs work.

[CarlosDJackal]

I tried to explain that the only handling I did was to remove my rifle from the truck and place it in the rack.

There you have it. I personally don't like it when I'm downrange and someone is along the firing line handling their firearm. I could care less if you had the bolt out and a safety flag in it. I get nervous anyway.

Yes, maybe he could have handled it better. But you could have too. By your own words, you were handling a firearm while people were downrange but still you insisted that you did not.

I would rather **** someone off, than have to call 911 because someone negligently discharged an "empty rifle" and hurt someone down range. As one of my club's RSO, whenever I see this type of action I address it right there and then. I don't care if you're one of the Board of Director members, the Club President, or what-have-you.

In the future you might want to secure your bench by placing everything but your rifle on it. Then once the line is called hot, retrieve it or take it out of it's case accordingly. IMHO.

[panzer426]

in my opinion you didnt do anything wrong, and yet you did. if the rules state that you dont handle your firearm while the range isnt hot, then dont handle it. of course you were being safe. but his job is not to decide if you were being safe or not, it is to enforce the rules and ensure the safety of anyone and everyone there.
personally I am nervous if I am not the ONLY person there. hot range or not any person there could turn around and shoot by accident. I agree, from now on secure your bench by placing everything but your firearm at it. if he didnt give you heck, then when the next person who he thinks is doing exactly what you did, safely, might not be so safe and could put a stray bullet into someones head. so if he sees anyone doing anything that "MIGHT" be dangerous, of course he should get in there face. if it were me I would be humiliated and possibly defensive. but if I were one of the others on the range I would be glad the range master had the balls to step up.

[Trip20]

In the future you might want to secure your bench by placing everything but your rifle on it.
I agree, from now on secure your bench by placing everything but your firearm at it.
Fellas, he made it perfectly clear that he only placed ammunition on the bench... firearm was in the rack away from the firing line/bench:

The rifle never crossed the line or went to the bench during the target change, the rifle went from the truck to the rack and never left until range hot was called. The rifle went into the rack (not the bench, the bench is the actual shooting station from which you fire) the rack is a simple device made to hold the weapon during target changes and it places the muzzle pointing straight up into the air, this rack is far behind the line.

By the statements bolded in the original posters comment above... it seems he did nothing wrong. Especially if "the rack" is "made to hold the weapon during target change"................................ which is what was happening when he placed the firearm in it's proper holding location.

What else is he supposed to do? Sit in his car in the parking lot 'til the range officer commences firing?

However if putting ammunition on the bench made you cross the white line, (and there's a rule about crossing this line during a cease fire for any reason), then you did do something wrong in that respect.

Maybe I'm missing something here (and I probably am because I do not know how your local range, is arranged - no one here but you knows this).

[spacemanspiff]

while your RO was on an obvious power trip, he was right. you should not have brought an uncased firearm to the line while the range was cold.

the RO's at the range i go to would do the same thing. they might not have gotten in your face about it and yelled at you like a DS, but you woulda been told to re-read the range rules.

before any shooter can proceed to the line at my range, they must read the posted rules. doesnt matter if you've been there 100 times, they wont let you sign in until you've at least looked at the sign for a minute.

there is also a new rule they've been enforcing: do NOT touch ANYTHING on your bench during a ceasefire. and that means ANYTHING. you are instructed to get your staplers, targets, etc off the bench before the line is cleared to go downrange.

theres good reasons behind strict RO's. just a month ago a shooter 'forgot' the rules and started fiddling with his rifles that were behind his bench. next thing you hear is a charging handle being operated. gave the two RO's a good adrenalin rush (as well as myself).

[Dwight55]

I guess I would question only whether or not what you did this time is the same as what you have done before, . . . and what others do.

Then if I had been you, . . . and what was done by me was accepted and otherwise common practice, . . . when the RO started chewing me, . . . I would probably have chewed right back.

Then, . . . I would have gone to his boss, superior, supervisor: and very seriously leveled the charges against him for his attitude. There is no excuse for that attitude, behavior, at all: at any time: anywhere: period.

People who have to raise their voice, . . . attempt to sound like DI Jones, . . . and assume some sort of Johnny Bad Boy attitude: need to be very quickly and irresolutely put in their place then, there, and with no delay.

I do not shout, scream, and otherwise threaten people, . . . and will not stand for it myself. If I have made a mistake, . . . you can tell me without shouting or screaming, . . . and I will probably do all I can to help it get undone, . . . and to not do it again.

Pardon me: rant off !

May God bless,
Dwight

[publius]

I don't see where you did anything wrong. maybe it was a borderline infraction but he shouldn't have been in your face yelling at you. I'm glad i don't have to go to a range to shoot Somebody gets in my face yelling like that for any reason is going to find themselves flat on their back with a hell of a broken nose.

[spacemanspiff]

[sigggghhhhhhh]

alright, i'll play.

publius, i can't tell if you say that because you are clinging on to some principle of demanding to be respected, or if you're ego simply can't handle being deflated?

i'm not trying to flame you, or insult you, i want to know why you would feel justified in assaulting someone who yells at you.

[RCPractitioner]

I took a picture of the stand and the benches today (sorry for the poor quality this was with my cell phone). As you can see the racks which are fashioned to hold the rifles pointing upward are well behind the red line. Also if he was upset that I had placed my ammo on the bench during the cease fire then fine tell me not to do that again and I would have apologized. I just don't feel that placing the rifle in the rack was wrong during a cease fire.



http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y83/RCPractitioner/RangePhoto.jpg

[Brit]

RCP The poor picture is good enough for this reply, I think?

It all depends on the posted rules, any range I have belonged to, UK, Australia, Canada, the US of A, state "You may not approach the bench till the RO says you can do so" more or less, and Rifle Ranges allow no handling!! Of firearms, whilst people are down range, and to add insult to injury, why the RO was himself down range beats me! He is supposed to enforce rules pertaining to bench and rack safety, by being there.

But the main point would be the written rules.

BIG Sign

You may not cross the red line while people are ahead of the benches.

No handling of firearms during a cease fire, except to deliver them cased to the rack area.

Now I am old, 69! But do not wear glasses, except safety glasses, you too will become old, we hope, and people who enforce safety rules will help you to achieve that exalted position, old that is.

Safe Shooting, it is a great sport.

[OBIWAN]

I am not going to comment on theincident in particular...there always seems to be more to the story...not a slam...but we only have your perceptions here.

But......this goes a LONG way toward reminding me why I shy away from formal ranges.

Are you allowed to park your vehicle with an actual weapon in it? :D

Because I would not feel any more "safe" with you behind me with your weapon just because the range was "hot"

[eka]

If a rule infraction occured, so be it and address it. I see no problem with enforcing the rules. Most rule infractions are due to simple mistakes by those who are not very experienced in the use of a range such as this. Most are not just jerks who refuse to play by the rules. That said, deadly accidents can be caused by unintentional mistakes. That is why there is a need for range officers and rules. However, there is no excuse for the way this range officer acted. You can be tough as nails, but be a gentleman about it. The officer should have come to the offender and explained the situation to him. 99% of the time, that would take care of the problem. Obviously, there was not a meeting of the minds in this situation, because the offender still is not clear what he did wrong or what is expected of him in the future. If after an adult conversation about the matter, the offender blows him off or shows his rear end about it, show him the highway. And another thing that came to mind. It seems pretty stupid to me to go up to a complete stranger who has with him a deadly weapon; jump on him, get up in his face, and try to embarass and publicly humiliate him. The odds are if this guy makes this type of behavior a common practice, he will eventually create another type of unsafe situation at the range.

[xmastree]

the only handling I did was to remove my rifle from the truck and place it in the rack.
I simply moved it from the truck to the racks which are far behind the firing line.Doesn't look that far from the photo. Looks like about 10 feet.
The RM was wrong to yell at you, but at any range, he's there for safety and must be obeyed, even if he's over the top.
You handled your weapon when you shouldn't have.
Humbly accept it, apologise, and don't do it again...

[novus collectus]

i'm not trying to flame you, or insult you, i want to know why you would feel justified in assaulting someone who yells at you.

spacemanspiff,
In your question to Publius's post, it depends on case law of the state. Although I would think it improper or imoral to do this, you have a right to protect your space with force if necessary. When I was a constuction worker, we were instructed by someone who was instructed by a lawyer (second hand info IOW) that if you got in someones face and yelled at them, then you had a legal right to protect yourself. So, they told us that if we had to yell at someone, step back 3 ft and do it. :eek: Some states may (or may not?) say that you may not defend yourself by punching them until they touch you. And when I say touch, it could be a simple tap of the finger on your chest. But, having said that, I would not do what Publius said and I would take the abuse or yell back in kind, instead of punching him. Especially if it was possible I was wrong and may have violated the range rules, I woud have not answered back and played by his rules just to avoid further conflict. But that is just me and RCPractitioner may have had another reason to answer back to this rude dude.

[Trip20]

Ya just can't go around punching people when they **** you off.

I don't care what you say. :cool:

And... what if they carry?

[Edward429451]

Remember back in the olden days when you could reasonably expect people to be competant with guns & safety? I don't, but hear it used to be like that. :D

I'da given the guy a yes sir sorry sir to convey that you understood and alleviate his potential fear of your safety practices and maybe even feed his ego a bit at the same time. The last thing you want is to be on the wrong side of the RO.

I'm sooo glad I don't have to use supervised ranges.

[jonathon]

There is a simple reason I have never shot at a range, and that is why.

Where I live, I can do .22's in my pit, but thats it anymore(to many people up here). So, we just drive out about HALF the distance to teh nearest range to a spot where the DNR says we can shoot and we do it.

[Model520Fan]

You handled a weapon while people were downrange. Not good - they should be able to look back and see no one handling weapons. Had the rifle been in a case, it might have been a different story.

You crossed a line you weren't supposed to cross. Not good - people downrange should be able to see that everyone is back from the benches where the weapons are.

Discussions about tone of voice don't really alter the above.

[wayneinFL]

If that's the rules of the range, then that's the rules of the range. The R.O. yelled at someone for breaking a safety rule. So be it.

But I still have to wonder: Why is it safe for someone to handle a gun behind you and put it in the rack when the range is hot? Seriously, if someone can explain this to me, please do.

[RCPractitioner]

But I still have to wonder: Why is it safe for someone to handle a gun behind you and put it in the rack when the range is hot? Seriously, if someone can explain this to me, please do.

Thank you, this is part of the reason I posted the pic

[Striker1]

I worked as a Range Official for 12 years and here is the deal.

No handling means NONE...zero, when the line is safe. In your situation I think the RO's should have had you wait until all other folks were back from down range, the range was cleared and then let you move up to the firing point and ground your weapon. Then you wouldn't have been humiliated and the whole mess could have been avoided.

[IZHUMINTER]

Seems to my way of thinking that if you aren't in front of the line, you aren't on the range. I also can't think of any range I've ever been on where it was okay to move weapons around behind the line when the range was hot. In my mind, when a range is hot, all weapons are treated as loaded...it's only when a range is cold that they can be moved. Maybe he was just antsy because folks were down range servicing targets at the time?

[Striker1]

IZHUMINTER,

On the range includes the firing line and the ready line which is usually 6-8' behind the firing line. This is the way military firing lines are run, but of course we don't have the issue of folks bringing weapons onto the range after we have started firing. They are all placed on the firing points at the same time and removed at the same time after being cleared by the RO's.

Additionally, shooters should only be allowed forward of the firing line after all weapons have been verified clear by the RO's and the line declared safe.

I don't want anyone behind me at the firing line handling a weapon while I'm down range in front of the firing line.

[IZHUMINTER]

Sorry...my post should have read "the red line." I for damn sure wouldn't want anyone wandering up to the firing line while I was downrange, but coming up 10 feet behind the ready line and placing a weapon in a rack pointed skyward is a different story to me. Of course, like you pointed out, I'm around guns all the time, surrounded by people trained in their use and safety, used to having a dedicated range safety rodding people on and off (which is hard to find on civilian ranges) and used to ranges where you approach from the side, not the back. That makes me a bit more comfortable over how RCPractitioner entered the range, but I understand where other people wouldn't be.

I guess at the end of the day it all boils down to the rules of the range you're on, and how the rangemaster on duty runs it. If he says I need a chamber plug and a blaze orange hat to put my weapon in the rack, I'm off to the range shack to look for said hat...and if he says no weapons change location until the entire firing line is back from downrange and in the front leaning rest, then I drop and start pushing.

[Yooper]

It seems to me there are two issues here. A clear infraction of the range rules warrants a correction by the range officer, there's no doubt of that. The manner in which the correction is delivered is another matter. There are an infinite number of methods for getting a message across without being demeaning. The infraction was a simple misunderstanding of the rules and hysteria on the part of the range officer was inappropriate.

[Ben Shepherd]

Here's my take(and I am an NRA cerified RSO):

Yes, you screwed up 2 ways:

1. Handling the gun(for any reason) during a cease fire.
2. Going over the line to the bench.

HOWEVER: IMNSHO the range officer in question handled it very badly if it started out like that and got as ugly as you said. I don't really know all the details, so I won't armchair QB it.

It is sad we have to be so strict, but you have to remember:
Someone at the range could possibly have 0 experience so we have to run it safely for the lowest common denominator.

[butch50]

This isn't so much a range question as it is a question of how to communicate effectively.

The RO acted like an idiot, unfortunately. If he had a problem with you he should have told you specifically and precisely what the problem was. ROs should not be the least bit vague, they have a duty to the other shooters to be specific and accurate, and above all non emotional. Given the fact that you were/are not aware of what his specific problem with you was, then he did not communicate effectively and left you not knowing what exactly not to do in the future - hence he is an idiot and did not perform his duty. Did you do something wrong? Who knows? If he caouldn't or wouldn't explain it clearly then how could anyone know? On the other hand, you could and should have communicated better by calmly getting him to be specific.

Two rules for arguing with idiots: :)

1. Never argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

2. Never argue with an idiot because bystanders won't be able to tell who is the idiot and who is not.

In the future, remain calm, do not become argumentative, defuse the others persons emtional/agression by your utter calmness and sincerety. Ask specific questions, and keep asking them until you get specific answers that you understand and that make sense to you. When you think you know what it is he is trying to say, repeat it back to him as in "Oh, so you mean that in the future I should leave my rifle in my vehicle until...." and he will either confirm that you do now understand, or clarify in more depth.

Confrontations with idiots occur everywhere, not just on the range. It is unfortunate though that the range let anyone act in a responsible position like that without some form of training.

[orionengnr]

which range? I have only been to two around here so far
Now as far as your experience, I will not judge you. But in the RSO's defense, he does not know if you have been there 100 times or if it's your first time. He does not know if you are an experienced, safe shooter or a moron. It sounds as if his approach to the matter could use work, but I for one am tired of having to worry about everyone's "feelings" every time I open my mouth.
FWIW, I've been barked at by an RSO once or twice before, and it is embarassing in the extreme (esp if you are on a first date at the time :)
Also FWIW, I was at a range about two weeks ago, when a pair of guys violated the "no crossing the line during a cease fire" and the RSO looked at them then looked away. Given the choice, I'd prefer a DI who consistently enforces the rules to an RSO who may or may not...

[RCPractitioner]

The range was Backwoods Trap and Skeet off of Hwy 380 in Little Elm. I agree with the arguing with idiots advice. That is why as I stated I recognized that attempting to challenge him would be a waste of time. However, as myself and others have pointed out, the fact is: Whether or not it is a cease fire or a hot range you would still be handling a firearm with other shooters directly in front of you in order to move your rifle from a vehicle to the stand. During a cease fire the other shooters will be 100yds away but during a hot range you would be handling a rifle 3-5 yards behind them. As far as crossing the line, it was completely legitimate to do so because you would not be able to hang a target downrange without crossing the line. The only infraction that I can see question with was that I placed a box of ammunition on the shooting bench that I wanted (this can be done simply by dropping the box on the bench as you walk past it to proceed downrange and hang a target). There was no weapon on the bench and all I did was move my rifle approx. 5-10ft. from the cab of my truck to a stand designed to securely hold rifles with muzzle pointing up well behind the line. This action is no less dangerous or questionable during a hot range than a cease fire for the reasons stated above. And unless I can throw a bullet by hand at 2000+fps I don't see the danger in placing a box of ammunition separate from a rifle on a bench.

[RsqVet]

Guys 2 things

1. The rules are the rules, logical or not, geared to the lowest common denominator or not, someone has to make them and so it goes, when you have to sit at the top and run heard on a group of people doing something where there is major potental for very bad goof ups you get to decide such things and the rest of us have to play along or take our toys elsewhere, there is no debate, especally not on the range, if some rule seems particuarly dumb to you I would suggest sending a calm and well written letter to the manager, club executive board or whoever makes the rules, that's the proper arena for such debate.

2. That having been said, anyone who treats people in the manner described is a jerk and moreover is exactly what the shooting sports DO NOT need. I have friends ask me on an almost weekly basis if they can tag along to shoot because they are afraid to go to a range on their own for the very reason of either embarassing themselves or running afoul of someone such as you describe. The local public range here has the most friendly and helpfull RO's (all volunteer I might add) I have ever met and I hope that their professonalism goes a long way towards supporting and encouriging many shooters.

[eka]

RSQVET,

I couldn't agree more. If the RO had spent more time explaining the situation and less time yelling and brow beating, safety would have been enhanced because there would have been a meeting of the minds as to what was expected in the future.

[XavierBreath]

I think the RO was out of line in the way he treated you, but not out of line in making sure you understand the rules. Yes, he was assinine about it, but he did his job. I have been downrange and have looked back to see people monkeying with guns. I have a friend who was downrange when a rifle was fired. Events like that can make you appreciate the RO who is focusing on his job instead of jaw jacking with his buddies.

FWIW, are cars always parked that close to the line? Every range I have ever been to has had a buffer zone of at least 30 yards between the line and parked cars. That in itself can create this problem.

[techbrute]

just remember he is there for the sake of you and everyone elses safety. and to satisfy personal power trips, in some cases. ;)

[Edward429451]

Maybe the RO was/is a DI. I've never been in the military, but suspect that DI's yell like they do for a few reasons.

If they yell, others hear also and the don't haver to repeat themselves 30 times a day.

Its easier to make a point to a lot of people at once even if only speaking to one individual by yelling.

People pay closer attention to someone who is yelling, vs someone who is not.

It makes it clear that he's doing his job and is serious.

?? Maybe. People don't seem to get mad at the DI for yelling, they realize he's just doing his job, and is sort of responsible for quite a few people at once.

[OBIWAN]

Yet another reminder of why I avoid public ranges and clubs

[steelersfan0000]

I have only heard of the RO nazis. I go to a range were they are laid back about that kind of stuff. My advice is find a range were you like the level of the RO's concern about this stuff and stick with that one.

[InToItTRX]

It was always my understanding that you never touch your weapon during a cease fire. Loading a magazine is ok, as long as your not touching your weapon.

[artsmom]

Of course it is safe to carry an unloaded gun with the action obviously open and pointed in a safe direction. If he can't discern that, then he should be replaced by an expert.

I wonder if this range nazi is against concealed carry.

If it is too unsafe to carry an unloaded weapon out from the car to the range, then it is WAY too unsafe to carry a concealed weapon loaded in public where people are in front of you, in back of you, walking towards you, behind places you can't see, etc.

[Ramcharger]

I would have said yes sir, sorry sir and thats it.
Sorry but he has to deal with a whole lot of imcompotent aholes every day.
I shoot every other weekend at my local range and I'm apalled by how careless and stupid people get. And then they get offened and angry when the RO catches them and tells em. Theres always some knuckle head that leaves a loaded gun on the table. The ROs pull the slide or bolt back and oops! Out pops a live round.

You stand here saying he was too tough you. Yet if the guy next to you dropped his "unloaded" rifle while trying to set it on the rack and it fired sending a 30-06 in your leg you you be the hopping mad on you good leg and suing him and the shooting range because the RO was negligent and incompetent and didnt do his job! Remember these are firearms not toys. They will kill. People seem to forget them sometime.

[6shooter]

The Range man was out of line. I'm a member of a range and have never heard of such behavior. We police ourselves when on the range as to when to cease fire and hang targets. The only time there is a range officer is when we have touraments. I understand not messing with the guns at the bench, but just putting the gun on the rack behind the line? The range man was out of line.

[moredes]

I've been an RO at 3 different ranges over the 30 years. Yes, you did something wrong, you crossed the line when the range was cold. No excuses are acceptable, especially from someone claiming to understand and practice proper "house rules".

The RO you dealt with was an ass from your point of view, (and all the sheep who've never heard a gun go off amongst a crowd on a cold line unintentionally will back you), but that doesn't excuse your behaviour either. My bet is the RO missed seeing you rack your rifle behind the line and only saw you place the ammo on the table. That set of circumstances, coupled with the fact that you didn't cop to handling *something* on the table, escalated the entire incident into an 'argument'. Your description says the RO was "some distance away" when he hollered at you while you were at the table. (How 'action-opened' guns are handled from vehicle-to-rack during a cease-fire is a variable according to "house rules". At two of the ranges I RO'd, handling *any* iron was taboo during the cold period; at the 3rd range, the only entrance to the line funneled past the RO's best vantage point, and he could stop all incoming folks with a quick, "please wait here until" the line turned hot.)

If the shooting line is long, there's no way to see everything on the tables down the line; it's like standing obliquely next to a cyclone fence and trying to look through it; thick glasses or not (and you can belittle his eyesight as much as you please) he saw you cross the line, and made the worst assumption possible, which as an RO is the best assumption to make, at any distance. I thought he handled it well, waiting until the line was hot, to speak to you "privately", until you 'mutually' got out of hand. If my description of his impressions are correct, I lay no fault *whatsoever* on the RO. You better believe, I'd raise my voice and threaten to drop kick *anyone* out the door immediately if they stand and argue their safety conduct was proper, if their reason doesn't jibe with what I think I saw ("I was never handling a weapon with people downrange") --all you had to do was state that you'd racked your rifle and brainfarted your way to the table with ammo only, and I'm sure the whole situation would have diffused itself.

I'm glad not to have to screw around anymore with the obstinant idiots and self-righteous experts handling guns among strangers and neophytes. There's enough of them out there that a whole weekend didn't go by when we'd have to listen to "attitude" while performing this volunteer duty of keeping an assemblage of randomly gathered experts and neophytes safe during every minute of their (sub)conscious range use.

I'm sooo glad I don't have to use supervised ranges.

I shoot on my own property now, and the unknown quantity of a stranger with a gun on the firing line doesn't even enter into my shooting scenarios anymore. God is good.

[M1911]

RCP:

Here's the deal: guns can only go off when there are three things: 1) guns, 2) ammo, and 3) someone messing with them. That particular rule is stop people from messing with guns while people are downrange. People were downrange and you were moving a gun around. You broke their rule, end of story. So fess up and take it like a man.

I certainly understand why the range officer lost his patience with you when you started to argue with him. The rule says no handling of guns while people were downrange -- 1) there were people downrange and 2) you were handling a gun. He told you what you did wrong, but you didn't accept it. It's no surprise to me that he raised his voice.

Different clubs have different rules. You may or may not agree with the rule at that club about not handling guns when people are downrange. But the fact is, that is their rule. It doesn't matter that your gun was unloaded when you took it from the truck. The guns benched on the tables or in the rack were unloaded as well, weren't they? Accidental discharges almost always happen with guns that people thought were unloaded. Which is exactly why many clubs have this rule.

As long as no one handles a gun while people are downrange, then there is very little chance of a gun going off. In fact, at many clubs not only can you not handle a gun while people are downrange, but you also must step back behind a yellow line, 5+ feet from the benches. This type of rule makes it much, much easier for a single range officer to supervise a large range.

Next time have your rifle in a case. Don't uncase it until you've asked the range officer if you can bring a rifle onto the line.

You may not like it and you may not agree with it. However, that is their rule and you broke it -- obey it or find a different club.

M1911