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thebucket
April 20, 2005, 09:36 PM
I have another hobby besides guns and that's video games. I'm very interested in making my own and want to some good factual information on how accurate full auto fire is in a variety of guns from small smg's to big belt-fed light machine guns so I can model the guns realistically.
I guess to start with how's controllability of a Mac-10 in 9mm? (if that's the right model)
Full size Uzi with and without shoulder stock?
Tommy gun, you lucky people who own one?
M-16?
And at various ranges(10-15 yards, 25-30, 50 yards) how easy is it to hit the target (assuming the standard size paper target)?
I know this is a lot of information to ask for and I don't need detailed accounts just general opinions. Thanks for your help everyone!

Sarge
April 20, 2005, 10:11 PM
Back in the 80's I worked for a Dept. that had an old commercial Thompson with the Lyman ladder-type sights on it. The FTO was a 'gunny' and knew I was too, so I eventually started getting invited to take ol' Tom out for his yearly workout. We'd load a drum or two with ball and play on B27's at 25-50 yards, and as long as you kept the bursts at 3-6 rounds, it was practically all hits at those ranges.

The last time I got to shoot it, as we were finishing one of the other officers noticed a 4-foot 1x8 standing upright on the 200-yard berm. The range was empty except for us & Lt. says "Hey Sarge, see if you can walk a burst onto it." I set the sight on the 200 mark and rested the gun, and the first burst was all around it. I concentrated on the sights and hit it on the second burst of about 6 rounds. I don't know how many actually hit it, but I saw the board split on one side and slap over on the ground.

I had a healthy respect for the old Thompson before that, and was downright impressed with it from then on. I carried it on two warrant services after that & there was't a gun I'd rather have had along, after that range trip.

boofus
April 20, 2005, 10:27 PM
The M10/9 is fairly easy to control if you use the stock. Three round bursts are easy, because the little 9mm round is pushing the big .45acp sized bolt. That reduces the rate of fire to manageable levels, around 700rpm. It's easy to get the first 3-5 rounds on target, but if you dump the entire mag at once maybe 10 or 15 shots will be in the white space over the silhouette's head.

The first time I tried my M10/9 without the stock I shot up the ceiling and a light fixture. :p

The factory sights on the MAC guns are terrible. At 30 yards or so the front sight post will be thicker than the target appears

Stiletto
April 20, 2005, 11:18 PM
With a P90, it's possible to keep an entire mag on target at 25 (?) meters or thereabouts. Or so I've read.

Hkmp5sd
April 21, 2005, 11:35 AM
My M11/9 subgun is an excellent anti-aircraft gun on sustained full auto. In bursts, it is fairly easy to hold on target, but letting loose with a full magazine in one shot is not. Both my M16 and MP5 are very easy to hold on target and dump a full magazine in COM.

luchs
April 29, 2005, 03:19 PM
hit with smg depend by the shot you fire with a single burst,if yuo keep the shot under 6 and have a strong hold on the weapons you can hit well a human target until 25 meters..
for the MG is differet, also if you make good use of the bipod the MG are area weapons and burst have a radius of fires that the shooter can use with advantage against multiple target...

Zak Smith
April 29, 2005, 03:41 PM
hit with smg depend by the shot you fire with a single burst,if yuo keep the shot under 6 and have a strong hold on the weapons you can hit well a human target until 25 meters..
Dude, you should be able to do that with a Glock 18.

Hkmp5sd
April 29, 2005, 03:43 PM
I would, if the .gov would let me own one! :D

MeekAndMild
April 29, 2005, 06:51 PM
Considering that I'm a mediocre shot I can keep about 80% in a four inch circle at 25 yards and 65% in a pie plate at 75 yards, maybe 40-50% in the pie plate at 100 yards, with a full sized Uzi in full auto mode shooting 2-3 shot bursts with the metal shoulder stock extended.

I don't have any other full auto experiance except the military M-16. With the M-16 I really don't remember as most of my training was in semiauto mode and that was so long ago that it really doesn't count any more. In FA it was sort of like shooting firecrackers to tell the truth.

Making a video game I think I'd put in a subroutine so if the trigger was held down more than 2-3 shots you'd get wild shots and risk of complete loss of control.

thebucket
April 29, 2005, 09:26 PM
Cool, thanks for the info everyone. I was going to have a skill system where you start out not so great at controlling full auto but improve as you play.

luchs
April 30, 2005, 12:45 AM
the glock 18 is not a sub machin gun...is a selective fire hand gun...and with the exception of the very short range is a no nonsense gun...
if you want a good selective fire hand gun try a berertta 93R like this
http://img244.echo.cx/img244/3417/beretta93r17eq.jpg
with the is own folding stock is better..
http://img244.echo.cx/img244/559/beretta93r37yi.jpg

Reaper351
May 4, 2005, 10:10 PM
I am a certified machinegun instructor and the team leader of a SWAT team. We use the H&K MP5, H&K UMP40 and H&K G36. Before we purchased the H&K's we used Uzi 9mm's. The Uzi's were actually very reliable weapons. We never encountered a stoppage or malfunction, no matter what type of ammo we fed into them. In full auto at approx. 7 yrds. You would be able to hold approx. a 4 inch group with a 30 round burst. The UMP 40's will hold approx. the same size group. The UMP's are much lighter. They "rock & rattle" when in full auto mode. The G36's are almost the same as the UMP 40's. They "rock & rattle" also and are a little more "robust" in their firing. I can hold approx. a 4-5 inch group at 7 yards with a 30 round burst. The H&K MP5's are the most accurate of our lot. I can hold a sub 3 inch group at 7 yards with a 30 round burst on the move! There is a little white lie that has always followed machineguns that says: "All machineguns shoot high and to the right". This is only true if you have not been formally taught. Hope that helped ya "thebucket".
(http://www.geocities.com/reaper351/index.html)

Sarge
May 4, 2005, 10:43 PM
Hi Reaper,

12 years ago I was the FTO for a 50-man sheriff's department that had just started a swat team, and since they didn't have a SMG instructor I got 'em squared away until they could send somebody to school. Since I was developing the system, I got quite a bit of time on various SMG's, and of course got to try out all the demos that the LE suppliers salespeople would bring occasionally. It was hard work- but somebody had to do it! :D

I loved the UZI, and am still not convinced the MP5 is actually a better weapon- particularly for CQB. I have shot a couple of UZI semi's that would wreck a soft-drink cup at 100 yards. But the MP's are accurate enough for the intended application.

My favorite, however, was the Colt SMG9. The first time I fired one I threw a paint can behind me, and just truned and greased it with the stock tucked under my armpit. I never fired anything that pointed so well for me, and they were good in aimed fire out to 50-75 yards, too.

Just an old gunny's 2 cents worth.

Reaper351
May 6, 2005, 01:12 AM
I hear ya gunny. I actually didn't want them to trade the UZI's in. They took like 5 minutes to clean and shot everything we put through them including reloads-try that with a MP5!...LOL. The Colt 635 SMG 9mm is a good weapon and the guys that are already familiar with the Colt M16 systems have no problems adapting.

OBIWAN
May 6, 2005, 07:22 AM
Technique is important...

With the proper stance/grip/etc....good accuracy is possible

I have seen a couple people dump a magazine from an m-16 into a ragged hole

Hint...they were not holding it like a target rifle

axslingerW
May 12, 2005, 04:07 PM
Used to shoot m60 and .50cal machine guns in the army. Not really the most accurate/controlable weapons out there. Having said that, if mounted on a tripod/vehicle slip ring etc, a good marksman can reach you to about 1200 yards with the .50. an m16a2 fires a 3 round burst (not full auto) and is quite controlable to around 300yards, but in semi-automatic will be accurate to 800yards (actually a little farther as the sights are set in meters witch are about 3" longer than yards). the m60 is VERY hard to hold onto if fired from the hip or shoulder (hate to tell you this but NO WAY could rambo run through that jungle with two of them shooting all the bad guys!!). The best technique is to "pray and spray". Just send as much lead down range as possible in a short perion of time. m60 barrels get VERY hot and I have seen them start to droop if not allowed to cool. They will acctually glow in the dark after about 400 rounds. I carried the rifle, another guy carried the spare barrel, and two others toted the ammo cans.

AK103K
May 12, 2005, 04:58 PM
Technique is important...
OBIWAN has it 110% here. With proper technique, its very easy to do full mag dumps, especially with pistol caliber guns.(not that this is the proper way to shoot them) Its more like riding a fire hose than trying to shoot. The more you fight it and try to control it, the more trouble you will have trying to hit anything. The more you relax and go with the gun, you'd be amazed at what you can do. The "up and to the right" comment is pretty much correct (if your right handed, its up and left if your left handed) if you "try" to control the gun. If you hand the gun to someone without instruction, thats pretty much what you will see when they first try to shoot it. TV has done a lot to teach people the wrong way to shoot, especially when it comes to full autos. My kids learned to shoot my MP5 when they were 5. They had no trouble with trigger control or making 2-3 round bursts once I showed them how to properly shoot it. They started with a few rounds in the mag on semi until they were comfortable with the gun, and then on auto with three rounds, and then 5 rounds. Once they could give me two to three round bursts on demand, they got a full mag. They could easily put good bursts on a standard IPSC silhouette at 7-10 yards. It takes little time to learn to shoot them right, and once you get the technique down, and know when to use it, they are formidable weapons, and also very fun toys. :)

Ozzieman
May 12, 2005, 08:32 PM
Go to Knob creek show, there two times a year and if you can come up with the money you can shoot any thing you want.
Look them up on the net, Its the largest full auto show in the world.
I go about every other year for the past 10 years and have shot the following.
50 BMG 25 rounds for $75 it was locked on the stand and couldnt transvers.
30-06 Browning BAR Two full 20 round mags for $50, SWEET gun my favort of all full autos but wouldnt want to carry it far. At around 150 yards hit a refriderator with almost every round.
M16 30 roynds for $30, borring, 3 round burst cound hit any thing I wanted but hold the trigger and its a watering hose.
Mac-10 30 rounds for $20, fun to shoot and accurate to 7 feet as long as you dont hold the trigger to long, again watering hose.
MP-5 2-30 rounders $50, the best pistole cal auto ever built, its no wonder all poliece forces and most millitary use them, very very impressive. Short burst I think some one even with very little traning with the gun could hit any one within 50 yard full auto
I dont want you to think I am an expert with full auto's becouse I for sure am not. For me it was a fun experance over the years and Knob creek has allowed me to do some things I never though I could or would.
Untill you have put to your sholder somthing like a BAR or an MP-5 no matter what some one tells you here you will never get the felling of firing one.
To set behind a 50 BMG and let loose 50 rounds, the air pressure on your face from the gun firing, to seeing the heavy rounds hit the ground and bounce up into the air and hit the tall hill 500 yards farther out.
Ant no game every going to give me the feeling of the BAR, but good luck.
and go to Knob creek

Ozzieman
May 12, 2005, 08:39 PM
They also have two other guns I diddnt shoot
One was a quad 50 bmg a ww2 in think or Koriea 4 guns on a turret and if you had the money could get 50 rounds in each of the 4 and pull the trigger.
The other was one of the rotary guns in 223. I dont remember the price to shoot but you got 250 rounds and you set down behind it and they truned on the motor to spin up the barrels and you pulled the switch to activate the feed.
250 rounds in less than 5 seconds, the flame was over 20 feet long and during one night shoot they filled it with tracers. most impressive.

Zak Smith
May 15, 2005, 03:58 PM
the m60 is VERY hard to hold onto if fired from the hip or shoulder (hate to tell you this but NO WAY could rambo run through that jungle with two of them shooting all the bad guys!!)
Sorry, no.

http://www.alansamuel.com/movies/rm3g2004/stage6m60.mov

Ozzieman
May 15, 2005, 04:47 PM
I will say it again after seeing that great film (thanks for shairing) no matter what any one here says, unless you put one of them up to your sholder and feel the effect of 20 rounds of 30-06 full auto, or 25 50bmg, no one can tell you what your looking for, you have to experance it once in your life.

fed168
May 15, 2005, 09:07 PM
And an M-14 is too light for 7.62 with the trigger held back.

PzGren
May 16, 2005, 05:57 AM
In the German military we shot the MG3 at 25m at small landscape targets. The center was about as big as a quarter and the next score ring roughly two to three inches. A short burst of 3 to 5 rounds had to stay within the rings.
The Uzi, as mentioned before is very reliable but a little less accurate and controllable than the MP5. At 65 yards I could put a short burst onto a 10" steel plate.
By the way, the German military manual ZDv 3/15 stressed that the UZI was to be shot semi auto or in SHORT bursts. Same for the MG3 on a bipod, while from the Marder it was shot in longer bursts and then barely ever jammed.

Kamicosmos
May 16, 2005, 09:26 PM
I just got to shoot some full auto this past weekend for the first time.

So, here's a FA n00bs experience:

Glock 18: Fun, and suprisingly easy to control with short bursts. Would definitely take some practice to get good with though, I didn't hit much with it.
MP5: True Love. I was hitting a bowling pin around 30 yards with bursts fairly often.
Thompson: Even easier to hit that bowling pin! BudaBudaBudaBuda
Supressed UZI: Much harder to control. I was surprised how heavy the gun was, yet it still bounced around a whole lot compared to the MP5. I didn't hit much with it, so I dumped the rest of the mag. I shot it more so I could say I shot a Full Auto Supressed Uzi. :D

waltn
May 20, 2005, 01:01 AM
MP5 and/or MP5SD are extremely accurate when using controlled bursts, including out to 50 yd. SpecOps and SEALS use them depending upon mission. Steyr AUG .223 is similar in that "what you see is what you hit". MAC 10 .45 ACP has too high of cyclic rate and difficult to control but great for across room distances. I have no experience with 9mm versions or MAC 11.

axslingerW
May 20, 2005, 06:41 AM
however that guy is about twice my size! He has a little more padding too. After a day of roadmarching/range time I usually came home with a really sore shoulder. It was, however, my favorite weapon to shoot. The .50 was just TOO damn heavy.

Zak Smith
May 20, 2005, 11:39 AM
Here's another friend of mine more normally proportioned who runs a different stage at RM3G-2004 with the M60:

http://www.alansamuel.com/movies/rm3g2004/shawn.mov

guntotin_fool
May 20, 2005, 01:58 PM
I have shot a lot of FA stuff, my favorite was a commercial 1918 BAR Winchester, if you shorten the front hand and shoot with your left elbow sorta dug into your armpit, it is amaxing how controlable 20 round of FA 30-06 can be, same with the M-14, shorten up the left hand and it it rocks, too many people try to hold it with the left arm extended and then you take away the weight of the barrel helping you. I was able to just cover a Five gallon bucket with both guns at one hundred yards.

Ifi had the money, my choice would be a suppressed mini UZI not a micro the mini, cheaper to feed and easier on the shoulder after a day of blasting. A civilian legal M-14 or FAL would be fun too

Nanuk
July 14, 2005, 10:48 PM
Those are interesting vids, but that is NOT the 60 I carried. I had a longer barrel and no verticle foregrip. It was quit a cumbersome weapon, but I shot it well.

luchs
July 15, 2005, 08:16 AM
it si a M60A3... :barf:

Sarge
July 16, 2005, 07:38 PM
I took a small PD out for handgun/shotgun quals last Sunday, and the Major brought along one of their Thompson M1A1's. I hadn't shot one of these in over 20 years, but it was no problem to keep 3-5 shot bursts on the head/neck of a B21FS at 25 yards.

About the only negative to the Thompson is the weight of the things. For the same load you could tote an AKM.