What to carry when you can't Carry?

[mgdavis]

What do you carry for self defense when you are not able to carry your pistol? I won't be 21 for another 13 months, so I am somewhat limited in what I can have on my person while not in my home. I always carry my SOG Pentagon Elite 4" folder clipped to my right front pocket, and occasionally I keep a 26" Asp in my back pocket or in a shouler rig under my jacket.

[Trip20]

Maybe some pepper spray too? Check out the laws on that for your state.

Here's a thread with some useful info. Read it carefully if your interested, as there is a revelation in the middle somewhere that they discuss and identify how to know the potency of your spray.

[dolanp]

Pepper spray is good, and an asp, if legal, doesn't sound like a bad plan either.

[GrandmasterB]

Fox OC pepper spray: http://www.foxlabs.com/FoxLabs.html

[jehu]

MG, Be carefull, as young as you are, about carrying anything that is a weapon. I say this because if you get in a scrape, as young people can tend to do sometimes, the police will look dimly on a 19yr. old carrying any weapon & if you get a weapons charge it could make it real hard to get a carry permit when you become an adult. Stay away from trouble and if it comes at you run the other way or learn Karate. :rolleyes:

[Trip20]

jehu has a great point. You sure don't need 4 pocket knives, 2 cans of spray, and a tire iron.

But no matter what age you are (over 18 of course) it's not a bad idea to have at least something on your person.

Keep it in moderation because as jehu says you do not want to jeopardize your right to carry if your state allows.

[FallenPhoenix]

I'd get pepper spray and stick to that. I would never consider using a knife for self defense if there is any other option.

[mgdavis]

I double-checked with the RCW's, and I think I'm pretty safe in carrying my Asp. The only aplicable part I could find was Title 9, Section 41. It says that as long as I don't brandish it at random people on the street I should be ok :D . RCW 9.41.270 (http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?section=9.41.270&fuseaction=section)

I am also smart enough not to go looking for trouble. I generally only carry the Asp if I know I'm going to be out late in Seattle or something similar.

[jonathon]

Carve yourself a mini baseball bat, put a leather thong on the handle and your set ;)

[Handy]

A role of quarters.


Great if you hit a toll bridge, too.

[MillCreek]

Mr. Davis, I am familiar with the RCW's, and FYI, just about any LE agency I am aware of up here considers the ASP or other collapsible batons to be a deadly weapon. Using it will get you a second or third degree assault charge. If you are caught carrying it, expect to be charged with a gross misdemeanor and the baton confiscated.

Of course, if you are merely carrying it concealed and would only use it in response to a deadly force attack on yourself or a companion, you should not run into trouble. If you carry it into a courthouse or Federal building, expect lots of attention from the security people as they hold you pending the arrival of the police.

[utaherrn]

I find that offensive body odor serves rather well :D

Seriously though, good advice above.

[mgdavis]

MillCreek, I may have misunderstood the RCW in question (9.41.270). If so, I would appreciate your pointing out the specific points. The way I read it, it said that it was unlawful to carry a club in a situation that would cause another individual to feel threatened, and of course carrying it in places such as court houses, bars, etc. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. The way I understood it, it is legal to carry when the intent is self defence. (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:...(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

[Bulldozer]

sock with rolls of spare change makes an excellent bludgeon.

sock with a pool cue ball is also rather effective.

[USP45usp]

The first thing that you should carry is the Vote. The second thing that you should carry is the Voice to get out the Vote, and the third thing that you should carry is the Thought of Why, you can't carry a Gun (or any other weapon).

As in, you should get with people your age, 18 to 20, to demand that they have the same Rights as everyone else. Why is it that when you turn 21 you become more responsible? Nothing, it's just a line drawn in the sand to make you do as others say. You can join the Military at 18, shoot, train on, and have fun with fully auto's, M9's, and even M-60's, tanks, etc.. but when you're not on duty, you can't own nothing without permission. Really should make one think huh... you can have a job with the most powerful weapons on the face of the planet but you can't own a simple handgun or carry for protection.

Honestly, at your point in time, I cannot really say what you should carry or what you should do for your own protection. In the eyes of society you can have a job that can be very dangerous and have the weapons to protect yourself but when you're off duty, you're a kid. This is something that your generation has to fight for, and for your generation to teach to those coming up behind you. We've tried, it seems that your generation doesn't want to actually vote and make your voices heard and then most ask what they can do until (they reach 21).

Good luck on your endeaver. I, for one, wouldn't trust a stick of wood, a seasoning, or some sort of "alternate" fighting tool for my protection. And just because I'm "allowed" to be able to buy and own the best tools for protection isn't a factor, because you should be able to do the same. But, you've allowed yourself to be disarmed because "daddy government" told you so.

Again, good luck.

Wayne

*sorry for the rant, but if 18 to 20 year olds keep on asking what they should do, yet do nothing to get "adult" Rights, then I really can't help them out.

[MillCreek]

Mr. Davis, looking at RCW 9A.036.021 and .031 may prove instructive. These statutes are from the criminal code and show the elements of second and third degree assault.

The problem with relying upon RCW 9.41.270 is that enforcement is discretionary. All you need is any person to say that you were menacing, threatening or intimidating, and they thought they saw a lead pipe on your belt or a suspicious bulge in your pocket. A quick pat down, discovery of the collapsible baton and voila! A quick arrest. This is the same law that is used to charge people if they shake a tire iron at someone else during a road rage incident or the like. Back when I did an internship with the prosecuting attorney's office, this was an easy catch-all charge.

It is often also used by law enforcement as an 'attitude' charge. If you have a poor attitude during your interaction with law enforcement, and they find a baton or the like, well, this is another charge they can hang on you.

I am neither recommending for or against carrying an ASP baton. I note parenthetically that I have several ASP batons stemming from my law enforcement days. You might find it interesting to contact your local police/sheriff agency or your county prosecutor and ask them what they think about a private citizen carrying a collapsible baton, and if they think that RCW 9.41.270 makes it legal to so carry. They will probably point you to the numerous case law decisions over the years (you can search them out on the state court website) which suggest that it does not, based on the number of people who have been prosecuted.

Confusion over this very issue is the major reason why several years ago, Washington state changed the 'CCW' or carry concealed weapons permit to the 'CPL' or concealed pistol license. They wanted to make it crystal clear that a carry permit pertains only to handguns and not other weapons, such as batons, balisong knives and the like.

All of this is perhaps a moot point if no one ever knows you are carrying an ASP baton or you never have to use it. I myself would plan on arguing that the application of a collapsible baton with strikes to the joints was part of a graduated continuum of force to contain the situation short of being compelled to use deadly force to safeguard myself or others.

[jonathon]

USP45usp -

Is Oregon a state where you can get the CCW if you are 18 and over?

[Jehzsa]

What to carry when you can't Carry?

A song and a prayer? :D

[USP45usp]

jonathon,

No, you have to be 21 http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/oregon .

For all those under 21, you folks really need to rally and get the age brought down to at least 18. You notice that the pols want your votes but treat you like children (as does the brandy bunch, vpc, etc..).

Wayne

[S.E.R.T.SGT]

Just a thought...ASP also makes a small OC spray that can fit on your key chain, but also looks like a small "kubaton". This is good for things like joint manipulation, pressure points, etc. (Only if you have training in this.), but can also be used for the obvious: Pepper Spray. I live in a completely different state, so I have no idea what your specific laws are in regards to this. However, I think in most states pepper spray is legal for things like protection against dogs, while walking, etc.etc. The best advice I can give however, whatever you decide to do, is obviously check the laws in your state, for confirmation. Good advice in this post.

[stephen426]

Carry the best brand of pepper spray you can, a knife like the one you are carrying, plus a Mini Mag Light.

With the pepper spray, you are not likely to do any permenant damage with it and it just may end an altercation. If you looked at the previous thread, it is not suggested you use that against a lethal weapon.

I ALWAYS have a knife on me even though I don't ever expect to use it for self defense. You'd be surprised how handy having one can be. If you are going to carry a knife, learn how to use it. Escrima is Philipino knife fighting and VERY effective. Make sure you check out the maximum length blade you are allowed to carry legally.

The Mini Mag Light can be carried just about anywhere. I prefer to carry it in my back pocket on the strong side with the light portion facing upwards. It is handy in the dark and makes an excellent kubaton. Again, you should consider getting training with it.

I would also consider enrolling in a self defense school of some sort. It is a great way to stay in shape, builds confidence (making you less of a target my the way you carry yourself) and you can defend yourself with it in unarmed combat.

I'm not sure if this applies but in Florida, you are allowed to legally carry in your car's glovebox if it is in a snap holster or zippered pouch even WITHOUT a carry permit. I was carrying before I was 21 and was stopped by the police for a speeding ticket. He merely ran the serial number to check if it was a stolen gun and returned it to me with my ticket.

Just make sure you check the laws and avoid trouble like the plague. That goes for everyone on this forum... especially the crazy yahoos that are dying to shoot someone.

[riverkeeper]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159366&highlight=koppo

And pepper spray.

[univtxattorney]

*sorry for the rant, but if 18 to 20 year olds keep on asking what they should do, yet do nothing to get "adult" Rights, then I really can't help them out.

I agree 100%. Young adults will never be taken seriously until they vote. Quit getting your news from Mtv and start taking things seriously. As was pointed out, you can fight and die for your country--you need to start wielding the power you have to make yourselves heard. This is not directed at you specifically, because you seem to be a bright kid. Just remind your friends how important it is.

[Model520Fan]

Six-cell Maglite. But please remember that it is far more lethal than an Asp. You should probably get formal Asp training, if you haven't already.

[mgdavis]

I am a shift supervisor of security at the local hospital. My employer is supposed to offer periodical ASP classes. However there has not been one held in the ten months I have been with the company. Is there anybody that offers ASP training to the public?

Also, rather than carrying a mini-mag I carry my polystinger or a compact streamlight.

[Whiskey Tango]

I'm not sure if this applies but in Florida, you are allowed to legally carry in your car's glovebox if it is in a snap holster or zippered pouch even WITHOUT a carry permit. I was carrying before I was 21 and was stopped by the police for a speeding ticket. He merely ran the serial number to check if it was a stolen gun and returned it to me with my ticket.

Florida Statutes say it must be securely encased, not in a snap holster. The good thing is that securely encased is very loosely defined, therefore it can simply be in a glove compartment, period. It can be on the dash, on the seat, between the seat, under the seat, under the dash, wherever, as long as it is securely encased and not on your person (if you don't have a ccw). When I drive, my Glock is between my seat and center console in an Uncle Mike's snap holster that is stictched into my seat (custom :D ). Since I'm not able to have a CCW yet, being 19 sucks doesn't it. I have repeatedly sent letters to my representatives (not the premade ones that you just send you address and go), and never received one response. But since Senator Martinez sponsored the new law that goes into effect October 1 (removing the duty to retreat, and protecting you from criminal prosecution and private suit), I think he may be interested in working the age minimum to 18, at least 19.

Even at my young age, I beleive in activism within the government, I see too many people complaining, yet not enough action. So when I gripe about my state, I've at least sent a letter to my Congressman/Senator/Representative.

As far as what to carry... I'd say anything you are comfortably and legally able to carry, I think having confidence in yourself and defensive measures is one concealed weapon that the government can't take away.

(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.

[Moe Mentum]

Get a can of dog spray, like the letter carriers carry. Its good for dogs, and bad guys.

[stephen426]

I thought this was a "what to carry when you can't carry" thread. How the heck are you going to conceal a 6D cell Maglight? Lets get back on topic.

As for Whisky Tango, You had better find out the specific law before you get yourself in a whole heap of trouble. I feel for you as I also wanted to carry before the age of 21. From the many law enforcement officers I have spoken with (not always the best source of information I know), it has to be in a seperate compartment in a zippered pouch or snap holster. I think a holster under the seat would not qualify. Please find out for sure as I would hate to see you lose your right to EVER carry for something stupid such as a firearms violation. The most important thing is to watch your attitude with the cops as this will determine how loosely or strictly they interpret the laws. I suggest you err on the side of caution. Good luck!

[vitesse9]

I am not commenting on the issue of carrying while under 21 and I am certainly not advocating it.

But, I just wanted to point out one problem with the above-mentioned interpretation of Florida law. While it's true that you can carry in your car without a permit as long as the firearm is "securely encased" and not on your person, it still has to be concealed to be legal. A firearm that is "securely encased" but still in plain view would trigger an open carry violation.

Here in Florida, I stay away from the outer limits of the law, and I stick with keeping my gun inside either a glove box or a center console. While I may win in court, I'd rather not test a police officer's interpretation of the law.

[smokinron]

I find it strange , as some one already posted, that an 18 yo can fight in the military, and carry a full auto weapon, but can't carry a handgun on the street for his own protection.
On the other hand, most 18 yo's I know dont have any business with a handgun, concealed or not.
I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this but thats how I feel....

[TallPine]

On the other hand, most 18 yo's I know dont have any business with a handgun, concealed or not.
And that is sad. People are remaining children longer and longer anymore.

[Shorthair]

Dosen't anyone know how to defend themselves with their bare hands anymore?
I've seen everyone comment on a lot of stuff that most of us won't carry every day, like a roll of quarters in a sock, or half a baseball bat and what-not. But I'm thinking that quite simply one should be at least capable of a modicum of unarmed self defense, given that life puts us in so many situations where we don't or can't have anything other than our wits and our unarmed skills. Not to mention that basic proficiency in unarmed combat makes one more proficent and confident when armed as well.
I have a CCW, with it I carry a .45 in 1911, and am never without my folding knife, but I think the first tool of any well-armed or un-armed citizen is his head and a basic set of unarmed skills to give him confidence, rather than resort to some kind of technological doo-dad to enable one to go walking unmolestable through the Valley of the Shadow of Death.
Not talking about walking on rice paper and getting those nasty dragon burns on your forearms, just about knowing how to defend yourself without having to whip out that asp and worry about defending yourself from the bad guy, the prosecutor and your assailant's family's lawyer.

[Brit]

When living in Sydney Australia in the 60s, 65 to be exact, I had the steward in an RSL club ask the question, can these young officers dance with your Wives?
My mate and I looked at him in amazement "Ask my Wife" I said "not me"

Both of them could not have been much more than 19, on coming back to our table, we had them join us for a beer, and was amazed to find they could not buy a beer in America? Not old enough?

Something is wrong with the rational that we can teach an 18 year old to kill a man with all manner of weapons, firearm, claymore, any and all manner of explosives, but a gang of youths in a city can deride the uniform, and if the mood suits them, kick a young man to death! And no CCW till 21?
And the thought that an 18 year old with a 9mm is more likely to go nuts and shoot up the street than a twenty one year old is a joke, it is not normally you’re 18 year old in road rage incidents either!
But they have tire irons as well!

Back to the thread! Forget weapons, till legal, keep fit, be aware all the time you are awake, take a defensive driving course, wear non slip soled shoes, always! Learn to box!! And you will get to be 21!!

[echaraska]

Use your head, then get some good martial arts or self-defense training. Remember too that, 90% of incidents involve persons under the influence of alcohol. Make sure you control your alcohol intake, without wits and coordination you will lose any battle. You can usually talk most conflicts down, if not, you have a basic understand of fighting and how to defend yourself.