"No Second Place Winners", by Bill Jordan

[monco]

Has anyone read this book? I got it on amazon.com and started reading the first chapter. I was put off by his stories of the "fun" of extended shootouts with illegals at border crossings, and outright disgusted when he began extolling the virtues of the "alibi gun" to place in the hand of someone you accidentally or mistakenly shot. This from a career LEO.

***? I bought this book I heard he taught very valuable defensive shooting skills, but what I've read so far makes him out to be some kind of gunslinging whacko who's not truly happy unless lead is flying. I'm considering round-filing it and getting an Ayoob book.

[Mr.629]

Don't read any Charles Askins books if Bill Jordan offends you.

[Superhornet]

Let us not get into ethics when it comes to someone shooting back at you...Accidents still happen today in shootouts and an alibi gun saves a lot of paperwork. Jordan is just telling you the way it was...

[tjhands]

I've been wanting to read that book. If you want to sell it, email me at iascorpio@hotmail.com

[katzbalger]

then it is true ACAB

[sean85746]

The book is a good read. Jordan HAS a lot of sage advice.

Remember, he was speaking of a different time in America, when the border WAS a very different place.

I don't advocate a toss down peice nowdays...you can bet forensic science will get you for it, but back then when an officer was in a shoot where he "knew" he was in mortal danger, and the gun was lost...as in the story Jordan tells...I'd have no moral problem dropping a peice..."way back then".

It is something to think about before we rush to judgment. He said he KNEW the officer involved, and that means he TRUSTED him with his life, and the reverse was probably true. He was sure the officer was telling the truth, and was moved to try to save his career, and maybe his life. I have to say...though I wouldn't do it now...I can understand WHY he did it way back then.

[monco]

and the gun was lost...as in the story Jordan tells...

That was one of the stories, and he wasn't the officer involved. The officer involved said the gun was lost, and Jordan dropped one in the river under the bridge to cover for him.

He also related an anecdote of a cop looking for a suspected killer in a trainyard. Guy fitting description appears, cop yells "Freeze" just as the guy's reaching into his pocket, cop drops him. Turns out it was an innocent bystander reaching for a hanky at the same time the cop spotted him. So the trigger-happy cop ends one man's life and ruins his family's, who don't have a Dad anymore and furthermore think he was a criminal.

I have serious issues with anyone condoning behavior like that. I'll read the rest for the tactical information, but for the record this guy seems like an a-hole that I wouldn't want armed on my streets.

[cuate]

Face it, younger LEOs sometimes don't use good judgement and the offense really doesn't deserve firing or the Grand Jury,

I think it was Jordan who was quick drawing and fired a round that hit the wall locker of his boss and bored a hole through the boss's dress uniform. The story goes that he was looking for the culpret "with a fine toothed comb".

Jordan went to San Antonio and had the barrel replaced on his issued pistol. That is a story I heard a long time ago.

I personally never did anything like that! Yeah, Uh Huh.

[Lion In Winter]

Sometimes the real world has a bad habit of intruding on what we think it should be.

Longevity has a way of putting matters in a different light. Bill Jordan does not need any excuses made for him. He was one of the "hard men" who stood ready in the night so that others could sleep safely in their beds.(Paraphrasing George Orwell.)

[monco]

Face it, younger LEOs sometimes don't use good judgement and the offense really doesn't deserve firing or the Grand Jury,

We're talking about killing an innocent man, tampering with evidence, obstructing justice, etc., not exactly what I would call minor infractions. The Good Guys (tm) aren't always right nor are they above the law. This kind of stuff gives all cops a bad name.

[tjhands]

Then sell me the book. Don't bother reading the rest.....I have a feeling it'll just enrage you. :p iascorpio@hotmail.com

[tjhands]

Or, better yet, how about a straight-up trade for Ayoob's book, In the Gravest Extreme? It'd just cost us about a buck fifty for the postage. What do ya say?

[monco]

tj - let me read the point shooting stuff tonight and then I'll trade you for Ayoob's book.

[tjhands]

Ayoob's book is very good - most here have probably read it before. Email me when you're done with the one you're reading. Sounds like a good deal for both of us. :p

[Edward429451]

I got that book, my dads old copy.

The (chaff) from a long time ago in a different galaxy could be seperated mentally from the good stuff that's pertinant to the here & now.

[30Cal]

Has anyone read this book? I got it on amazon.com and started reading the first chapter. I was put off by his stories of the "fun" of extended shootouts with illegals at border crossings, and outright disgusted when he began extolling the virtues of the "alibi gun" to place in the hand of someone you accidentally or mistakenly shot. This from a career LEO.

I think the story involved a well-known pistolero taking a shot at an agent on a train bridge and his gun landed in the river below when the agent returned fire, killing him. The new county coroner decided to drag the river with a magnet to decide whether or not the agent's story of a justified shooting was true. Apparently, several folks in the office were concerned that the eager coroner's magnet might come up empty and that the respected young agent would loose his career.

At the end of the day, the magnet had recovered something like 5 revolvers, all of which had one fired case in the otherwise full cylinder.

Ty

[444]

I have a copy.
It was autographed by Mr. Jordan himself at Camp Perry in the early 80s.
I know a lot of people don't agree with me, but in MY opinion, the streets were safer and America was a better place to live back then. It has been many years since I read the book, but I don't remember having any issues with the stuff he did. Askins is another story. He goes beyond things that I consider to be moral and just: however I wasn't there and might have had a different outlook if I knew everything that was involved.

[LAK]

I think Jordan's No Second Place Winner is well worth studying - and I will not be parting with my copy anytime soon.

[20cows]

Unrepentant Sinner

The title of C. Askins' book says it all.

[Grayfox]

A common mistake in revisionist history. Judging the past by the standards of today. :mad:

[haskell]

In a few short days that you have been with this forum, you have started two threads that SCREAM "I hate cops". Tell us what problems you have had with LEO in the past and get it over with.

[IronGeek]

What has Monco said that indicates he "hates cops"? All he's said is that he finds some of Jordan's anecdotes deplorable. I have to agree with him. As for some of the responses, ("Accidents still happen today in shootouts and an alibi gun saves a lot of paperwork", for example) It sounds like many people here feel that anyone who's not a cop is automatically a BG, and there's nothing wrong with knocking them off.

Superhornet, how would you respond to the attitutde of, "Well, it was just a big mistake, & the officer was going to get me into a lot of trouble, so I shot him. It saved me *so* much hassle."

Would it be better to pretend that cops are always right? That they are above the law? How many LEOs are ethically & legally beyond reproach?

One of the men I respect most in the world, my judo instructor, is a policeman. He's noble, righteous, & an all-around great guy. Yet even he will, on occasion, use his badge to bend the rules a little bit.

Some of the other cops I've known, well, I won't even go into it as I know it wouldn't go over well with this crowd.

[monco]

Has nothing to do with cops. One of my college roomies is a local cop now. I hate a-holes like Jordan. And haskell.

That clear it up for you, pal?

[haskell]

WOW :eek: Things always look better in the daylight, the day after. PAL

[Sammy]

I'm sure those here justifying LE planting a gun on an innocent person to cover up what may be, given the benefit of a doubt, a tragic mistake, or at worst a crime, are joking. at least I hope you are.

[Nnobby45]

If it offends you, throw it away and don't read the parts that might save your life. Sell it to TJ, since I've had one for years.

Border was a tough place back then. At night a gun could be in your face in an instant and there wasn't always a lot of time to "evaluate things". Agents worked alone or in pairs and handled things on their own--but they did their job. Bill Jordan was "good enough to ride the River with".

[Model520Fan]

Let him who is without stones cast the first guilt.

[monco]

Sorry I started this thread. I made what I thought were valid criticisms of Jordan's book and got called a cop hater and now get inflammatory PMs. I take it all back. All cops are right all the time. Let the lead fly...God will sort 'em out. Or something.

Get over yourself haskell. Some people don't like being called cop haters in public forums, esp. when it's unwarranted. I think it's wrong to shoot innocent people and casually toss an alibi piece, and I hate seeing anyone put a .45 through their head, criminal or not. I guess that makes me a "cop hater" :rolleyes:

[Nnobby45]

Monco--In the dark, the language barrier, the fact that Border Patrol officers had been killed-- never knowing who had a gun or knife-- or would take yours and kill you with it--were things the Border Patrol had to live with. After it was over, the suspect may have been unarmed, but that doesn't mean they just went around "shooting innocent men and throwing down a gun." Doesn't mean the deceased was "innocent", either.

[Sarge]

I'm sure those here justifying LE planting a gun on an innocent person to cover up what may be, given the benefit of a doubt, a tragic mistake, or at worst a crime, are joking. at least I hope you are.

Sammy nailed it for me. I'll make it a little clearer.

I've been a cop a long time. This "throw down gun" crap was wrong when Jordan was advocating it, and it's wrong today. This is called "tampering with evidence" or "hindering prosecution" in most jurisdictions, and it's usually a felony. When cops commit offenses against the administration of justice, the whole system turns upside down. These things need to be identified for what they are- FLAT wrong.

If you're gonna carry a gun, you better have the training and judgement to to use it well- and the guts to face the music afterward.

The book is well worth reading- but Jordan, despite his many contributions to law enforcement weapons and equipment, did NOT walk on water.

[monco]

Bravo, invssgt!!

[haskell]

OK Monco,This will be my swan song. You have called me an a---hole and you hate me,and "get over myself" in a public forum. You have alluded that I sent you an inflammatory PM. That PM stated that I thought we were having a spirited debate. Yes I told you that you have not been alive long enough to say that in a public forum. Yes I said ---- you in that private message.

You seem to have a problem keeping your temper. If an exchange of banter sends you over the edge, I hope you never become a POLICE OFFICER. What if some dark rainy night you saw what you thought was a weapon and with your quick to jump attitude. Well. Should you have firearms now with your quick temper.

You got angry over a book written 35 yrs ago by a man who has been dead almost 8 yrs. You felt bad for a man who shot a cop outside a full school yard. Don't bother to respond you little jerk, I'm off this forum. Thanks much to those who helped me out in the past. "Where did the Hood Go"

[Denny Hansen]

PMs are exactly what the name implies--personal--the contents of which should not be brought public. This one's closed to prevent any piling on--on either side.

Denny