Fighting a maniac with a samurai sword

[Para Bellum]

Hi everybody,

today a guy entered a church in Germany with a samurai sword. He killed one hurt three more seriously, one is struggling to survive. You will find the original German news-report below. Maybe some of you understand it.

What strikes me is that the police used pepper spray to stop him. They seem to trust it with their lifes. I would never rely on pepper spray if I'd face a samurai sword. I would draw my G19 immediately and fire until he falls. Having 20 years of martial arts behind me (and a samurai sword in my closet) I know what a devastating and fast weapon this is. Just think that you must get close to about 5m (15-18ft) to use pepper spray. With a samurai sword you can cross this distance in one second and split your opponent's head.

Could I be I wrong? Would you also dare to rely on pepper spray? Or is it even faster stopping a guy with pepper spray than with a handgun?

PS: Even in my hometown (Vienna/Austria) a guy ran amok with a samurai sword last fall. He hurt several people badly. The news then did not give information on how the Austrian Police stopped and arrested this guy, but they did so without killing him. Pepper spray again?
Source: http://wien.orf.at/oesterreich.orf?read=detail&channel=1&id=347514

Source: http://www.orf.at/ticker/177819.html?tmp=8170
Ein Toter nach Amoklauf in Stuttgarter Kirche

Übersicht

Bei einem Amoklauf in einer evangelisch- methodistischen Kirche in Stuttgart ist heute ein Mensch getötet worden. Mehrere Menschen wurden verletzt, drei davon schwer. Eine Frau soll in Lebensgefahr schweben. Der Täter wurde festgenommen.

Nach Polizeiangaben feierten in der Kirche zum Tatzeitpunkt Dutzende Gläubige - vor allem Tamilen und Inder - einen Gottesdienst. Der 25-jährige Täter, angeblich ebenfalls Tamile, stürmte in das Gotteshaus und schlug mit einem Samuraischwert um sich.

"Bild des Grauens"

"Abgeschlagene Gliedmaßen liegen in der Kirche herum", sagte eine Sprecherin der Polizei. Die Beamten hätten "ein Bild des Grauens vorgefunden". Die Polizei überwältigte den Täter mit Pfefferspray. Das Tatmotiv liege vermutlich in seiner familiären Situation, sagte ein Polizeisprecher.

Die Polizei war von Anrainern der Kirche alarmiert worden, die am Nachmittag kurz vor 16.00 Uhr sehr lautes Geschrei aus der Kirche gehört hatten. 65 geschockte Gottesdienstbesucher wurden von den Einsatzkräften betreut. Angeblich soll der Mann schon früher Kirchenbesucher bedroht haben.

[22-rimfire]

Sorry Para Bellum... my German is a little fuzzy. But, I get the gist of what you are saying. I would not intentionally trust my life to pepper spray unless that is all that I had. I would rather RUN! :)

From a US perspective, I believe this points out that there are other weapons that have very devistating consequences associated with them other than a hand gun or "assult rifle" when in the hands of a lunatic or person set on killing. We actually have a law which limits blade length to 6" (I believe) for carrying a knife. I believe the sword probably exceeds that a tad. Switch blade knives are also illegal to carry here, but not own.

[KC135]

If the guy was an EDP, the police were lucky. Water has about the same effect as OC has on many EDPs.

EDPs are not normally effected by pain either.

[LAK]

One dead after rampage in Stuttgart church.

People died today during a rampage in an Evangelist-methodist church in Stuttgart. Several people were hurt, three seriously. One woman is in critical condition. The attacker was arrested.

According to police information dozens of Glaeubige [What the heck is a Glaeubige?] - all Tamilen and Indian - were celebrating a service in the church at the time of the incident. The 25-year old suspect, allegedly also Tamile, stormed into the place of worship and struck with a Samurai sword.

"Picture of horror"

"Victims lay around the church", said a police spokeswoman. The officials found "a picture of horror". The police overwhelmed the attacker with pepper spray. The motive for the act is probably of a family nature, said a police spokesperson. The police had been alerted by neighbors of the church, that had briefly heard very loud shouting from the church in the afternoon before 4 p.m. 65 shocked service visitors were cared for by the task forces. Allegedly the man has already threatened church visitors in the past.

[Double Naught Spy]

This is what happened in Florida with a samuri sword several yaers ago...
http://www.sptimes.com/News/092700/Citrus/Gun_purchase_turns_in.shtml

[Fred Hansen]

Could I be I wrong? Would you also dare to rely on pepper spray? Or is it even faster stopping a guy with pepper spray than with a handgun?In at least one case (http://www.metrokc.gov/proatty/news/2003/herzpr.htm) pepper spray had no effect whatsoever on the killer. The police officer relying on the spray paid with his life.

So I would answer your questions as follows: Yes, never, and not even close.

I place pepper spray in the condiment category somewhere below "Warning Shot".

[yorec]

I'm reminded of the scene from the ol' "Surviving Edged Weapons" vid where the cops apporach the house and one of them is gutted by a guy on the other side of the door by means of a BIG, two-handed, medieval knight n' chopper poked through the mail slot in the door. :eek: Bladed weapons are deadly. Period.

As for the question of OC spray? Sure - I'd use it if I could be assured a buddy with unquestionable abilities and equipment were backing me with a 12 ga and I had reasonable obstacles between me and the swordsman that'd allow my use of OC but not his use of the sword... Can't think of any such circumstances off hand, but anything's possible.

[USP45usp]

It's all part of the "small arms control" that Europe has embraced due to the UN's treaty (of which I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they signed) regulating small arms.

Small arms are "eeeevvvvviiiiiiillllll" and should be banned :barf: .

This just goes to prove that it's not the tool used but the person that creates the murder and the mayhem.

My thoughts go out to those that were attacked, but you'd think that the People would wake up and find that they are just sheep for the slaughter when it comes to arms laws.

Wayne

[yorec]

And just what good do such laws do that ban blades with greater than 6" lengths? Boxcutters were the instument of choice in the worse terrorist action I know of... Besides, anyone seen the movie "Sling Blade?" Bladed weapons can be had anywhere and cannot be legislated effectively.

<Best throaty crasy guy impression on>"MmHmmm. Some folks calls it a Kaiser Blade. I calls it a Sling Blade..."<Best throaty crazy guy impression off>

[stephen426]

There are quite a few crazies out there for sure. I've heard that at least 1 in 4 people have some psycholgical problems. Check out 3 of your friends. If they are all normal, the nut case must be you. I try to surround myself with wackos so I lower my chances of me being the crack pot. (I'm just kidding about everything I wrote so don't go CRAZY one me) :p :eek: :D

I hate to sound like an anti gunner but the St. Pete atricle make me think the pawn shop employee was lucky the other guy was carrying a sword rather than the .357 he had bought. I'd rather be stabbed than shot with a .357.

As for the rampage with the sword, I also feel it is fortunate that it was a contact weapon rather than a high capacity firearm. At least you have a chance to run. There is no out running bullets and stray bullets still kill.

I guess this reaffirms that thread about carrying in church. What is this world coming to???

One other thing, what the heck were the cops thinking when the pepper sprayed him? Germany produces some of the finest weapons in the world and they hit him pepper spray. I would spray him too... with hot lead that is! I know contact weapons are deadly and I have no sympathy for someone who has just gone on a killing spree. If that person is criminally insane, I'm sorry. the world is a safer place without him.

[Para Bellum]

Sure - I'd use it if I could be assured a buddy with unquestionable abilities and equipment were backing me with a 12 ga and I had reasonable obstacles between me and the swordsman that'd allow my use of OC but not his use of the sword... Can't think of any such circumstances off hand, but anything's possible.

maybe they were several cops holding him at gunpoint with rifles and one peppered him down. Our (Austrian, neighouring country to Germany) SWAT-Teams (COBRA and WEGA) would use the Steyr AUG .223 for this. If any other scenario actually was the case, the cop was either nuts or bruce lee.

"Gläubige"
is German for "Believers" = people who attend service at a church or similar places...

This is what happened in Florida with a samuri sword several yaers ago...
http://www.sptimes.com/News/092700/..._turns_in.shtml
Thank you for the info. Just for the sake of accuracy. That blade was a Ninja-sword. Ninja-swords are a bit shorter than samurai-swords and have a straight and not curved blade. You couldn't care less? Me neither. Some of the extremely useless info that sometimes gets memorized by my brain while the important stuff doesn't :o

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, I probably could care less, but not much. Even so, it is an interesting point of fact. I, myself, would not have had any idea of the difference. My terminology came from the story. That was the best I had to use. Either way, they are fairly long instruments. Sadly, folks like me who are out of the Samuri-Ninja loop will default to seemingly generic but technically incorrect terminology. Just as soon as I get my ninja crosstraining, then samuri, I will be a dangerous ronin.

Here is the link to the story on TFL. I retried the link above to check the facts and it would not go through for me for some reason. Just in case others have issues with it, here is the TFL version... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39634&highlight=pawn+sword

[oneeyeross]

Having lived in Germany for over five years while a member of Uncle Sugar's Great Shebang, the US Army, I gotta tell you, Polizei usually gets it right. They don't make too many mistakes. Additionally, there is no such thing as police brutality. The concept is foreign to them. If a policeman needs to smack you, he will, and the Rathaus backs him up.

So, if they used pepper spray, I'm sure they knew what they were doing, and how to apply it. (Also, do we know if it's the same strength we have here?)

[JMoore1977]

Well I personally would much rather take my chances in the gun vs. sword scenario instead of the pepper spray vs. sword. I have heard before that pepper spray does not sting some people as much as others. I have no idea if thats true.

While we're on the subject of swords, I'd also like to point out that guns get alot of bad publicity in the media yet I would pose this simple question: Would you rather be hacked to death than shot? Guns are much more humane than how they used to do it. Never mind the spiked clubs et al.

[JohnKSa]

I guess I'd use pepper spray if he kept coming after I ran out of ammo.

[LiddyCent]

i recall seeing a video where a guy with a sword was stopped using high pressure water (fire hose) and a ladder (to pin him)...pretty incredible.

[Fred Hansen]

Liddy, that was in Seattle. The pinko police chief allowed the sword weilding nut job to cripple the city all day. While they "talked"* with him. :rolleyes:

About 12 blocks away were at least 30 square miles worth of fishing net. They could have netted the nutjob with about a half-hour's worth of time and almost no effort.

Instead it cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to capture a patient who went off his meds. :rolleyes:



*The poor guy was talking in Klingon or something. Nothing they could have said to him was going to help.

[38SnubFan]

Like the other guy said, I'm keeping pepper spray in the "condiments" category.

If I'm being attacked with lethal force, I'm responding with lethal force.

Only other option I see for this scenario (and that's not always a guarantee) is Taser.

-38SnubFan

[Duxman]

When the US Marine corps first engaged the Moro "rebels" in the Philippines pre-1911, even their .38 special did not contain enough stopping power to bring down a fanatic running at full speed with their machete's.

This is the very reason why the .45 1911 pistol and round were invented. So following logic, obviously having a .38 pistol is better than just carrying pepper spray, why would you use such a woe-fully inadequate weapon against a sword wielding maniac...?

Pitiful as the usually efficient German Police usually carry HK's, and this would have been a classic MP5 vs Katana battle.

[molonlabe]

Could I be I wrong? Would you also dare to rely on pepper spray? Or is it even faster stopping a guy with pepper spray than with a handgun?

No, I would go for slide lock. Mine is sharp as a razor and could take a head off in one sweep. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it I would expect the body count to be much higher. The point is "How would you know"?

[stephen426]

Like the other guy said, I'm keeping pepper spray in the "condiments" category.

If I'm being attacked with lethal force, I'm responding with lethal force.



38, I'm with you on this one but pepper spray is an intermediate step before using lethal force. If the guy is acting in a threatening manner but has not done anything to justify the use of lethal force, are you going to be the one to escalate the situation and draw a gun? It is possible that the other person may have a weapon but it hasn't gotten there yet. If the use of lethal force is avoidable, it should be done. You greatly lower your chances of being prosecuted and or sued civilally but the family of the person you shot.

Many times, the drawing of a weapon escalates the situation to where it is difficult to back down. If someone draws a weapon on you, you must respond by drawing your own weapon. By my reasoning, I don't know if he will shoot me so I had better shoot first to eliminate that possibility. This is why you should only draw when you have to use it. I know there are incidents where by displaying the weapon, the other prson backed down but that is optimistic. I believe that in the heat of the moment, merely drawing a gun may not be enough to stop a person. Will you shoot if the person antagonizes you and dares you to pull the trigger?

I will share from my experience. Living in Miami, we have more than our fair share of the homeless. When I was younger and even dumber than I am now, I carried a pellet gun in plain sight when I got into downtown. I had an agressive bum hounding me for money and I pointed to the pellet gun. He dared me to shoot him and asked what was I going to do with that. In retrospect, I should have just maced him and driven away. I had other cars in front of me so I couldn't just drive off. I wasn't justified to shoot, but the guy was pretty big and acting in a treatening manner.

I hope this changes your perspective as there are many situations in where less than lethal force should be attempted first. I do agree that if lethal force is being used, that you should respond in kind.

[VirgilCaine]

I think they should sue the manufacturer of the sword, make law abiding sword owners register them, and send that guy to anger management classes. I'd prob'ly sue the church as well! :D

Y'all know I'm kidding, right?

[Fred Hansen]

I believe that in the heat of the moment, merely drawing a gun may not be enough to stop a person.That's a reasonable thing to believe. Deputy Herzog (http://www.metrokc.gov/proatty/news/2003/herzpr.htm) probably believed that too, so he pulled out his LEO strength pepper spray - and according to eyewitnesses at the scene - sprayed it directly into the face of the animal who subsequently killed him with his (Deputy Herzog's) own gun. So not only didn't the pepper spray have any effect in stopping the killer, it didn't even slow him down or prevent the killer from grabbing the gun.

The long and short of it is that if someone is psycho enough to not back down after you pull a gun, then it just might be that he's psycho enough to kill you after you've spiced him up.

In any case if one finds oneself in a situation where one has to commit the equivalent of assault to stop an assailant, one might just as well use a reasonable weapon for that purpose. Pepper is for cooking, or perhaps the occasional crowd control application, that and lining the pockets of the folks who market it as a self-defense weapon. I sure hope they think of Deputy Herzog every time they make a sale. :mad:

[stephen426]

Fred,

When I stated that merely drawing a gun may not stop someone, that doesn't necessarily mean they should go for the pepper spray. It may be shoot decision rather than a spray decision. That point was made to illustrate that people in a rage don't think clearly and some won't back down even when a gun is pulled. Does that give you a right to shoot an unarmed person? I seriously doubt it unless you are a petite female and the attacker is a huge bear of a man.

Many cops switched to pepper spray and away from mace due to the lack of vapors that also affected them, especially if it would go off in the car. Pepper spray has to make direct contact with the skin, eyes, or mucous menbranes to be effective. Was Deputy Herzog carrying a powerful brand of pepper spray or was it a weaker formula so he wouldn't have to baby sit a crying slobbering perp he sprayed.

Maybe you feel that we should really just shoot first and ask questions later. In that case, maybe you should be a Miami cop. Some people respect human life, even the lives of criminals.

Carry the best product available and use common sense as to whether lethal force is really necessary. In some cases it will be and will be the only thing to save your life. Maintain a respect for all life though and don't be so quick to escalate. Your life will be much less complicated.

[Fred Hansen]

Pepper spray has to make direct contact with the skin, eyes, or mucous menbranes to be effective.Would inside the mouth, up the nose, and into both eyes (no glasses on the perp) count? That's where Deputy Herzog hit his killer in the face. One of the (oddly enough armed with her personal CCW) eyewitnesses to the killing was an off-duty EMT. I'm pretty sure she knows anatomy well enough so that we can be sure her description is accurate. Sadly she was not able to get a clear shot at the killer.Was Deputy Herzog carrying a powerful brand of pepper spray or was it a weaker formula so he wouldn't have to baby sit a crying slobbering perp he sprayed.Maybe you missed this part of what I said : "LEO strength pepper spray".When I stated that merely drawing a gun may not stop someone, that doesn't necessarily mean they should go for the pepper spray.That's contradictory enough to cover all of your bases. And some say you can't have it both ways.Carry the best product available and use common sense as to whether lethal force is really necessary. In some cases it will be and will be the only thing to save your life. Maintain a respect for all life though and don't be so quick to escalate. Your life will be much less complicatedThe lesson that Deputy Herzog's situation teaches (some of us) is that giving the benefit of the doubt to a murderer can get one killed. The fact of the matter is that I have not, and will not for that matter, escalate anything. I'm not drawing a weapon unless a threat exists. Once the threat exists it is going to be incumbent upon the person causing the threat to de-escalate the situation. I respect life plenty, I've even risked my life for others, but if someone threatens me and/or mine, or even an innocent stranger's life, their actions will determine whether they live or die. The vagaries of judgement of "people in a rage" notwithstanding.

In Deputy Herzog's case the threat was as plain as day. A very large muscular man standing in traffic raving and trying to drag screaming women from their cars as they entered the intersection. I'm not sure if Deputy Herzog shared your deep and abiding respect for the life of deviants, but sadly his own life is much less complicated. It's over.

Thanks for all of the advice just the same.

[Twycross]

I would have to play this by ear. If someone comes into my church swinging a sword, I would have to sum up what exacly was happening. If the guy is obviously incompetent, and just swinging wildly, and has not killed anybody, then pepper spray has much to commend itself. If the guy is trained, and beheading a person a second, then it would be an obvious time for an immediate application of the strongest force available. Or, even if he is a pathetic mass-murderer, but has already killed or seriously injured a person, then I would shoot, out of anger as well as fear for the lives of others.
It sounds like this guy was incompetent. While four victims is always four too many, any person who can charge into a church and only murder one person is patheticly bad. But I would have shot him anyway. One less creep.
But it is like the martial arts saying, "Don't fear the belt. Fear the person wearing it". I would sum up the actual threat, as well as the potential threat.

[38SnubFan]

Stephen,

I understand your points and even agree with them to point, but on this scenario, I have to stand firm, and say I would still go for the gun first. If he's crazy enough to charge me after he's staring at the business-end of a .45, then he's going to be stopped. Reason I wouldn't pull the spray first is because HE IS ARMED with a lethal weapon, and I don't have the time to try a NON-LETAL device first. Thus to quote from your most recent reply:

Does that give you a right to shoot an unarmed person? A man with a Samurai sword swinging it around violent is NOT EXACTLY what I'd refer to as unarmed.

Hope if nothing more, we can agree to disagree in our opinions of this situation. I think it's fair to say we can all have different viewpoints and not have a right or wrong; just "human" thought.

-38SnubFan

[Duxman]

I agree with 38Snub fan, a samurai sword in the hands of a master kendo swordsman is probably more efficient than any handgun you care to name in a 3-5 foot range.

However even if this person is an amatuer, a real katana (folded steel made by a japanese master) is designed to cut through flesh and bone as if they were paper. And since most church goers do not wear chainmail armor, they would be in lethal danger just from an amatuer trying to cut them up.

I would think anyone armed whether it be a blade or sword is a lethally armed foe and should be treated as such. Lets not fool ourselves with this PC crap. Many men and women have been killed by these instruments of death way before guns were invented. Swords and knives are just as lethal in close range than a gun.

In fact if you look at casualty figures in the middle ages, they were much higher for the amount of people in the encounter, than modern engagements and casualty figures. A tribute to modern medicine, but also the lethality of the sword.

[faraway]

Duxman, quite astute observation about the rather appalling wound capabilities of swords. Even when used by people who may not be proficient in the finer points.
Mayhaps the reason the Polizei didn't shoot, related to the likely presence of others still in the building. So in this case, pepper spray some other forms of containment may have been appropriate. Admirable degree of training and restraint on their part.
Without a firearm, the potentially useable response to something of this nature, might be an improvised item which resembles a long staff. A good hand with a halfstaff was often able to contain a swordsman. Or even kill one... Best reponse, get thee hence from that place.
Weird thing is, with the effects of firearms restrictions, the cultural predispositions of some groups for edged weapons, and the effects of internet and video RPG's involving edged weapons... maybe there will be more of these kinds of incidents.
Hopefully not...

[TheeBadOne]

An edged weapon:

Never runs out of ammo

Never jams

Is user friendly (you don't need any training to be deadly with it)

[FirstFreedom]

Indiana Jones has an effective tactic for this swordfight situation - significantly superior to pepper spray.

[CarlosDJackal]

Lethal force calls for a lethal response. Someone pulls out a Katana on me will be shot!! And not justs once either.

[Para Bellum]

I would have to play this by ear. If someone comes into my church swinging a sword, I would have to sum up what exacly was happening. If the guy is obviously incompetent, and just swinging wildly, and has not killed anybody, then pepper spray has much to commend itself.
I would not rely on my assumption that anybody with a lethal weapon was "obviously incompetent". I would behave exactly that way to get close enough to demonstrate my actual competence.

a samurai sword in the hands of a master kendo swordsman is probably more efficient than any handgun you care to name in a 3-5 foot range.
I have 20 years of experience practicing with various martial arts. Believe me: A sword is a dead-simple weapon. You need no skill at all to use it well agains unarmed people. That's just because you can't stop a sword with your bare hands (and that's a Bruce Lee quote).

Indiana Jones has an effective tactic for this swordfight situation - significantly superior to pepper spray.

I remember the scene :) . I was 13 or so when I first saw it. Made my think about my blid believe in unarmed or at least non-firepower skills. So I started shooting :cool:

[LAK]

Para BellumBelieve me: A sword is a dead-simple weapon. You need no skill at all to use it well agains unarmed people. That's just because you can't stop a sword with your bare hands (and that's a Bruce Lee quote).

Same goes for the machete and similar impliments.

[Stiletto]

Meh. A katana is far above/beyond a machete; you ought to be ashamed of yourself for comparing the two! (:p)

But yeah, I wonder what the psychological states were of the people going nuts with katanas; generally, if you're actually in martial arts, you've developed a lot of discipline by the time you make it to weapons. They've been at it for a couple thousand years, they've figured out that just training someone how to kill/maim without instilling a lot of discipline would result in people just flipping out and killing people.

If lobbies start popping up to ban swords, I'm going to be ******.

[perception]

I shoot quite often, but have never used a sword other than just picking one ou from time to time. That said, if I am within about 7 or 8 feet in a situation, I would rather have the sword. You can simply do far more damage in a short period of time with much less need for skill or luck. Shoot someone in the arm, and they will be hurting, but a good sword can simply take the whole arm off in much less time.

[Para Bellum]

That said, if I am within about 7 or 8 feet in a situation, I would rather have the sword. You can simply do far more damage in a short period of time with much less need for skill or luck. Shoot someone in the arm, and they will be hurting, but a good sword can simply take the whole arm off in much less time.
Even regarding what I said above, I disagree. I can put 16 Federal EMFJ-Bullets into an opponent who is already at body contact with my Glock 19. Once somebody is that close, a Katana is almost useless.

[Duxman]

Para - an unskilled person would be better off with a firearm (as "untrained" peasants killed many highly trained samurai in the Meji Dynasty.)

But in close quarters against an iajitsu sword master, he can draw cut your throat and re-sheath the sword in under 1 second. All without breaking eye contact with you.

Good luck getting those slugs through his system in that time.

Of course the good news is, there are less than 2 dozen iajitsu masters running around in the world. :D

[stephen426]

You guys are forgetting something important though. Swords are not very concealable. Unless you get ambushed or walk around a blind corner, it is hard to simply walk up to someone with a katana. Now the iajitsu sword masters may have the advantage since an undrawn sword isn't likely to be perceived as a threat. Now that I know however, I will shoot anyone I see with a sword if they are within 25 feet of me! :eek: :p :D . Now lets just hope they aren't experts at throwing swords as well.

[Para Bellum]

..do you happen to be Frank Dux?

Para - an unskilled person would be better off with a firearm (as "untrained" peasants killed many highly trained samurai in the Meji Dynasty.)
yes. Magnificently displayed in Kagemusha (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080979/).

But in close quarters against an iajitsu sword master, he can draw cut your throat and re-sheath the sword in under 1 second. All without breaking eye contact with you.
Hard to believe. And impossible at bodycontact (as I posted above). If he is an inch before me or even closer, he can't even grab the handle of his sword (cross-draw) while I can grab my glock 19, twist it 90°, pull back and fire twice (also under one second, the other 14 shots come in the follwing seconds).
I would not advise anybody to fight a pistol with a sword. Even the best only have a chance to be faster if they are no closer than a meter (3ft) and not further away than 8 meters (25 ft). Thats the basics even of anti-baseball-bat-defense: close in, make body contact!
But that's just my opinion.

Good luck getting those slugs through his system in that time.
Thank you ;) . As I said, he can't even reach the handle of his sword (with his leading sword-hand), if we are at body contact. The handles would be at my side and I could control his swords with my left and shoot him with my right. I bet a cent on myself :p

Of course the good news is, there are less than 2 dozen iajitsu masters running around in the world.
:) and if they attempt fighting gunmen, there will be even less soon :D

That's what I call theroretical combat ;) .
stay safe and have a nice weekend.

[faraway]

True about a longsword or katana not being concealable.
However such as coustilles and such were...and its likely a matter of time before the looney fringe realizes that...
Concerning all the conjecture about firearms vs swords...in general that debate was resolved some centuries ago.
That said, a competant hand with a katana, longsword or even rapier is nothing to lightly pass off...
And the consideration needs to be made, that in a potentially crowded church, emptying a weapon could be very, very problematic. Sure the maniacs done for, but there will be rounds which penetrate through...even for a good shoot in an ideal condition. So mayhaps the German police handled the whole situation as best as could be expected.
In some ways, maybe the best that could be learnt from all this, is to not underestimate an adversary (or his weapon) and don't overestimate your own abilities and weapon.

[jburtonpdx]

Most that train in edged weapons train with the entire weapon. In otherwords, the handle is a part of the weapon also, as is the sheath. A master of a weapon can use it in many different ways. In a body contact situation you may be suprised (as you lay unconscious on the ground) to find out that the master did not even pull the weapon from the sheath before using it on you.

Most that train with weapons also train up close, such as body contact distance, as well as a distance as seen in the movies.

Many that train with edged weapons also have backup weapons (just like many that train with handguns carry a bug). I know people that have knives designed specificaly for body contact combat...

All in all as was said before, usually by the time a person is trained with weapons they have some discipline. More then likely that a person with a ccw would never be confronted by a person that has mastered a weapon in martial arts for the same reason that most of us CCW would never confront them.

We are not looking for trouble, we are looking to stay out of trouble.


All of the above said - A guy with a drawn sword is a deadly threat plain and simple. The LEO's in Germany had a situation, they responded, and it worked. It was that simple for them that time, would I do the same thing, no, I am not an LEO. If others were in danger and could not escape and I was packing I would draw and fire (if the line was good and the target was good). If others were not in danger and I could run, I would.

Knowing what I do know about edged weapons, would I have chosen to use pepper spray if I was carrying that? No I would not, either shoot or run for me in that situation.

[Duxman]

Para -

..do you happen to be Frank Dux?

No. Just a fan with a similar background and deep admiration for Mr. Dux. Very astute of you to have caught the reference. One of only two people who realized it. Congrats on being so well read. Few have read the classics.

Hard to believe. And impossible at bodycontact (as I posted above).

Correct, there are minimum and maximum contact distance with a sword, knife or any other edged weapon but remember I mentioned close quarters, not body contact range. Plus most kendo swordsmen are usually cross trained in Aikido for body contact engagements.

I do not think there is a debate here in Gun vs. Sword, but as in most situations most likely the person with the better skill, luck, and situational advantage will likely win.

[Para Bellum]

I do not think there is a debate here in Gun vs. Sword
you are right. It's just always nice to discuss with a martial mind coming from a similar direction, even if we agree. :)
Have a nice weekend, Duxman.

[K80Geoff]

Frank Dux....I suggest you check out his story in the following book:

"Stolen Valor" by B G Burkett. :rolleyes:

[molonlabe]

From page 338

Next to picture of World Championship trophy.

Frank Dux, Who duped Judith Regan of Reganbooks into publishing his bogus "true story" The Secret Man. The martial arts trophy allegedly won "in a world championship" was made in North Holywood, near Dux's home.

I loved the book but had to put it down over anger.

Sorry for the thread drift but BS needs to be exposed. Especially when it involves my 58,000 brothers (heros) on the Vietnam wall.

[Para Bellum]

...if you don't want to read the story, go and see the Van-Damme-Movie "Bloodsport", it's amusing.

[Para Bellum]

news: The guy who went berserk with a katana, chopped of his fathers hand and stabbed the new boyfriend of his ex-girlfriend in the back in Vienna/Austria last fall was sentenced to only 11 years today. Attempted murder.
For those of you who understand German:
http://wien.orf.at/oesterreich.orf?read=detail&channel=1&id=377549

[Duxman]

Lets hope he does not learn the art of the "shiv" in prison. Hope it was worth it. In my opinion he should have gotten more than 11 years.

Actually saw Bloodsport as a kid, and recently, its not as good as I remembered it to be.

[Para Bellum]

Actually saw Bloodsport as a kid, and recently, its not as good as I remembered it to be.
:) Brother! :)
I was fascinated then, but actually it's crap. Any Seagal-Movie shows better combat skills.... :cool:

[S.E.R.T.SGT]

Yeah, no brainer. If's he got a sword, I've got my gun on him... :)

[Limeyfellow]

Usually I found that most the people who go nuts with swords that we see on the news are usually wannabes with mental problems. They usually buy one or more of those swords you find for display. They tend to be cheap steel, but yes its going to still do horrendous damage as long as it doesn't hit anything too hard and bend some. Its highly unlikely you are ever going to be attacked by a skilled swordsman anymore.

[Sulaco2]

We have had two deputies killed with swords in the last 15 years! And another nut stood off the entire city department in broad daylight for nearly 6 hours not long ago...city police were afraid to use force, go figure.

[WOD]

Was Deputy Herzog carrying a powerful brand of pepper spray or was it a weaker formula so he wouldn't have to baby sit a crying slobbering perp he sprayed.

Maybe you missed this part of what I said : "LEO strength pepper spray".
Quote:
When I stated that merely drawing a gun may not stop someone, that doesn't necessarily mean they should go for the pepper spray.

That's contradictory enough to cover all of your bases. And some say you can't have it both ways.
Quote:
Carry the best product available and use common sense as to whether lethal force is really necessary. In some cases it will be and will be the only thing to save your life. Maintain a respect for all life though and don't be so quick to escalate. Your life will be much less complicated

The lesson that Deputy Herzog's situation teaches (some of us) is that giving the benefit of the doubt to a murderer can get one killed.
------------------------Well Said------------------------------

I have sprayed myself both with Mace on a dare and Pepper Spray(Pepper Mace Bear Spray)on accident trying to protect myself from an angry raccoon and I can tell you that on any normal Joe walking down the street, "It will incapacitate you!" I was barely able to breath, or see for what felt like forever, and I had a headache for 2 days. With the bear spray I made the mistake of urinating shortly afterwards and I burned down there for half a day. The pepper mace bear spray was by far, longer lasting as it burned the skin and was hard to get off. I had to stay in a cold tub of water for a day to reduce the pain.

When I watch real life videos like cops and shows like Mad Dog the Bounty Hounter and I see these crazy criminals get a mouthful of mace and still beat down the guy spraying them it makes me realize their are guys out there who just dont have a reaction to pain like normal humans. They are either lacking in nerve endings or so angry and doped up, they dont feel it either way. This being said, due to fear of litigation, I will always resort to Bear Mace as first option and my gun as second and final solution if the BG is armed but not packing a firearm. I urge anyone thinking of using sprays to try them out and spray themselves at least once to understand the effects and to be prepared in case you get it on yourself.

Best Regards,

WOD

[calishooter]

if I was going to try to stop a man with a sword in a nonleathel way(witch I would not)I would use a taser with at least a 20 foot range.peper spray has been known to have no effect on people on even the lightest of drugs or alcohol.

[Jack Malloy]

I would argue that at close range a good sword is probably THE most effective CQB weapon ever invented, as you can use it much faster than a sawed off shotgun, and it has more "stopping power" and lethality than just about any handgun.

While most swords out there are flee market junk sold on ebay with rat tail tangs and untempered blades, the fact is that because of excellent bladesmiths and the increased interest in the replicas market, there are probably more good quality swords out there than ever before. My house is full of them, from makers all over the world and the USA.
With a good rolled point edge a single sweep can take off a limb as fast as the hand can swing the blade, most of which are around 3 pounds or less.
The reason I carry a handgun instead of a sword is simple. They are more concealable.
Howver a gladuius, or shortsword could be concealed under a trench coat. And in all honesty, were I to lose my vision, there are two companies that make excellent sword canes that hold ninja type striaght samurai blades inside them, that I would use for a walking stick.
Most hardcore sword enthusiasts are a lot like gun enthusiasts. Decent, rule obeying, law abiding folk. But just as a bad guy can get ahold of a Glock or Smith or HK he can also get ahold of a Del Tin, a Paul Chen or an Atrim.
A man with a sword and homicidal intent is just as dangerous as a man with a shotgun or a meat cleaver or a fire axe. Personally I would not rely on pepperspray in that situation.

[WOD]

I was watching Max Ex, the show that showcase extreme accidents and idiocy. There was a master swordsman who was showing off how proficient his sword swing was and had his student put a cucumber on his stomach while the master sliced it neatly in half. This worked without incident, but the next slice required the student to put the cucumber on his throat. The teacher did his neat little slice, but this time the students throat split open when the cucumber fell to the ground. The master wipes the blood off his sword and leaves the student to walk away and didnt even help him when he collapsed from the wound. It was a very small measured slice, but it looked like it cut the students throat wide open. I definitely would not want to be faced by that kind of weapon and I definitely would ask for a refund from that dojo.

[Fred Hansen]

I definitely would not want to be faced by that kind of weapon and I definitely would ask for a refund from that dojo.By telephone.

:D