View Full Version : Coyotes: Are they always fair game?
February 10, 2000, 04:17 PM
Hello. I'm a prospective varmint hunter and was looking at photographs of varment hunters on a website. Great footage. Love those rifles. Looks good when someone on a farm displays a mound of pests eradicated. Nevertheless, when looking at the pictures, I couldn't help but feel sympathy for coyotes. My goodness, coyotes look like somebody's dog! Why on earth would anyone take that poor animals life just for the sake of enjoying target practice? I can understand the need to prune out troublemakers damaging farms and livestock, but is it justified to go out to some barren desert and pick on coyotes who are just surviving, lucky to get a scrap of food? What do varminters do with a coyote after the photo op, throw them in a trash can? I don't have a problem with hunting deer and elk. It's all edible. Rabbit stew's great. Ground chucks and other varmints are a farmer's pest. But coyotee's? Somebody please explain to me why it's justifiable to hunt coyotes for just sport when they aren't bothering anyone. I'm not talking about protecting farms and chickens.
February 10, 2000, 04:33 PM
I've often felt the same thing. My coyote hunting experience has been limited to: Having an excuse to have a rifle in the field when the big game hunt is over (and your buddies haven't filled their tags), and one excursion to take care of a pesky 'yote or two harrassing livestock.
They are really hard to stalk... and are a lot of fun to watch though the scope as they go about thier coyote business.
In some places there is still a bounty on them, and some people will still pay you for the pelts. Generally I don't beleive in shooting predators, but sometimes a rancher asks you for a hand.
A lot of varmint hunters start out.. just to have something to do between big game seasons.
February 10, 2000, 05:20 PM
In my younger days, I frequently whacked large quantities of varmints of all shapes and sizes. Having grown a little older, I feel a little more apathy for some of these critters and avoid killing them just for sport. Hunting pressure is already heavy and if I’m not going to eat it, I pass on it. This is just my personal decision.
My initial interest in varmint hunting probably had a lot to do with performance. I experimented with a lot of different firearms and calibers. At the time I was not only reloading, but making my own bullets.
On my last hunting trip (November), in South Texas, I could have easily bagged a dozen hogs, a couple of badgers, several foxes, coyotes, and a couple of bobcats with my 220 Swift. I passed on them because once the crosshairs were on them the rest was purely mechanical.
However, I did take a very large male bobcat. I was on foot, less than 5 miles from the Rio Grande, and placed a single 45 ACP round from my HK USP, with optical sight, right in the head. I had a Rem. 870 mag. over my shoulder, with 000 buck and slugs, but did not use it as it would tear the pelt up. I was having second thoughts though, as I was only about 30 feet away from the bobcat, and I sure did not want him jumping on me and biting & scratching the tar out of me. The bobcat, a beautiful specimen, was taken to a taxidermist and is currently in a friend’s den.
THE .41 MAN
February 10, 2000, 07:08 PM
Having been raised on a ranch, I shoot coyotes anytime I see one when I'm armed. They do alot of damage to stock, game birds, and game animals. They are survivors though and I don't doubt that when the world ends, there'll be coyotes and cockroaches. They are very prolific breeders. I don't process the fur anymore due to bad prices. I let a taxidermist friend have them for $5 each. With too many coyotes and lion, there'll be no deer or elk. Sorry, I'll get down off my soapbox now. RKBA!
THE .41 MAN
HAVE MORE FUN WITH A .41
February 10, 2000, 07:20 PM
It is called population control and someone has to do it. Might as well be me :) A large abundance of coyotes will do one of two things, eat everything and anything they can get there teeth into or die of hunger. Most likely they will eat everything in sight and that includes other wild critters. Upset the balance of nature. Here in my home state of Oregon for example I can give two resent problems with these varmints. A large number of these varmints are finding their way into the suburbs, transferring deseases to domestic house animals and eating them too. Anyone missing their house pet lately! The states solution is just to set poison traps (very stupid), creating just as many problems as it solves. Here is another one. Our antelope populations are dwindling because of fawn mortality. Guess what is causing it? Hungry coyotes. A number of other species are beginning to feel the impact of these pest also. See, farmers are not the only ones that have a problem with these varmints. Reality, these pest are very hard to pursue, you can never harvest enough of them.
February 10, 2000, 08:35 PM
I couldn't agree with the 41 guys any more. Back in the mid 70's when prices were high, my hunting/trapping buddy and I would take a couple hundred coyotes a season. Great money for a couple of high school kids at $75 to $100 a pop. We didn't hunt them in the off season then but do now since I have a cow/calf operation going. We couldn't make a dent in their population back in the 70's and I know I don't now. I think the only way you could really hurt the population is by mass poisoning and I wouldn't agree with that. THE .41 MAN said "that when the world ends,there'll be coyotes and cockroaches.". Probably fairly accurate.
bullet placement is gun control
February 10, 2000, 08:55 PM
First off, if you leave a coyote where you shot it, something will eat it...
The primary coyote diet is mostly mice and rabbits. However, they are quite happy with any ground-bird's eggs as well as the quail, duck, whooping crane, or any other. They eat housecats, too. A female coyote in heat will persuade a house-dog to come play--and the rest of the pack will kill him. They will kill fawns, lambs, kids--and grown sheep and goats. They have been seen to work together and kill a grown antelope doe--the coyotes were smart enough to take turns running her; she ran in a large circle...
A coyote population will expand like a vacuum cleaner with teeth, until prey populations are too low to support it. Then, they die back from starvation.
No hunting will ever dip into the "last half" of a coyote population. Shooting those you have a chance to will merely aid in keeping some sort of overall wildlife population balance. This is beneficial to game-hunters as well as non-game animals.
No matter what you do, within today's legal structure regarding poison, the coyote species will survive. As long as species survival is ensured, all else is personal beliefs and morality--and not germane to what other people do.
But they are indeed fun to watch, and the pups are cute little critters.
February 10, 2000, 09:58 PM
CleanCut, I read your post again and got ticked off again. Have you ever witnessed a couple of them pulling a live calf right out of a cow? One in front distracting the cow, one in back chewing the head off. I have, it cuts into profit. Needless to say they didn't live long after that, one died on the spot, the other made it about 150 yards. Do you really think that they would live someplace where they were lucky to find a scrap of food? Have you ever read stories about them coming right up to people and snatching "muffy" the toy poodle right out of their arms? Not that I care much about toy puddles. These guys are very smart, and can survive anywhere, and they'll eat anything. Around my place they get shot on sight and left where they fall. Tends to be a message to others I think. There, I'm done for a while, I'll be back later I'm sure.
bullet placement is gun control
February 11, 2000, 05:01 AM
Something not mentioned above, when there's a lot a pressure put on a Coyote population, their litters will increase to balance out losses, in other words, the more you kill, the more they reproduce. So, you'll never eliminate them with a gun.
February 11, 2000, 01:21 PM
I'm with the 41 Caliber guys, Art and Muleshoe on this one. I had an uncle who was a potatoe farmer who also ran sheep out in the San Luis valley of Colorado. He would shoot them on sight. I've seen sheep with hindquarters eaten off - that were still alive. Sheep killed and not eaten at all - just looked like the coyotes were into killing that night. He was always wanting us to come out and shoot them - as were his neighbors.
Similar to what Robert said, Colorado banned poison and leg-hold traps a couple of years ago. Now our mule deer population is declining, with the main reason being fawn predation by coyotes. Hmmmm - coincidence???
February 11, 2000, 01:29 PM
Hello. I enjoyed your responses. I enjoyed them because they gave me a good sample of the "mindset" of American hunters. Dr Rob: You sound like a sportsman. Skyhawk: You're a class act. 41 man: Point's well taken. Robert: Point's well taken. Muleshoe: You get angry at my post.
Remember, Muleshoe, the thread's called 'The Hunt'. To me, hunting means stalking your prey. That's my personal view. It sounds like, though, you're alittle obsessed with money. Remember the thread's call The Hunt. It's not about money.
I said in my original thread it's not about livestock. I said it's OK for coyotes to be pruned out to protect the livestock. Nevertheless, you (Muleshoe) continue on about livestock and ask me if I have ever seen a live calf pulled out of a cow. My answer is, no, my goodness! I haven't seen that awful, horrible sight. Your only response, though, is amazing. "I have, it cuts into profit," you say. Is that all you think about is profit?
Then there's Art Eastman: Art says "If you leave a coyote where you shot it, something will eat it." You mean, you'd really just leave it there, Art? Isn't that kind of sloppy? Wouldn't want you on my land. Art then says, "As long as species survival is ensured, all else is personal beliefs and morality - and not germane to what other people do." What about The Hunt, Art? Is wanting to be sportsmanlike just about personal beliefs and morality? Where's the sport?
February 11, 2000, 01:41 PM
Colorados Mule Deer population is down due to chronic wasting disease... NOT overppopulation of predators.
Predators CANNOT survive without prey. If you find a place with lion tracks, there is a very good chance the place is full of deer.. if the deer weren't there.. the lions wouldn't be either.
I've never seen coyotes act 'vicious" or "evil" they are just animals, and wary cunning ones at that. Nature can be incredibly cruel and brutal. I can't help but feel a bit of kindred spirit for coyote, an animal smaller and slower than other predators in north america, thus an animal that has to be an opportunist, and a bit smarter than the average wildlife.
Something to think about:
Coyote is called 'the trickster" and is a powerful God in Am. Indian folklore. Coyote stole the secret of fire from the sun and gave it to man. He is a a cunning brother spirit to be emulated.. and respected.
Sometimes indians saw coyotes in the woods.. but occasionally one would meet COYOTE.. the trickster and be given important messages and gifts. So just be careful WHICH one you shoot.
(Just a lil flip side of the coin for the heck of it guys)
February 11, 2000, 04:13 PM
CleanCut: Go back and read it again! Nature recycles everything; plastic and aluminum just take too long. Sloppy is in the eye of the beholder: If a dead carcass of anything is eaten by a scavenger, where is the strange and unusual pattern? What is the difference between a coyote in a pasture, dead from a disease, or dead from a bullet? Or a rabbit or a bird?
Assume one of Muleshoe's cows dies from some disease. Do you really think any rancher, anywhere in the world, is going to give it a proper burial with a funeral ceremony? 900 pounds of dead meat?
Muleshoe's money interest is food for his table, and paying the taxman. Coyotes, to him, are like termites or vandalism of your car, to you.
If a species' survival is not in doubt, what is the pragmatic difference between purist sportsmanlike hunting and predator control? Both activities wind up in death.
I am no longer in the ranching business, and can take a more benign attitude toward Ol' Wiley. I have two or three who come around the house for scraps. I rarely hunt them, and when I do it's fair chase, fair hunt. But I am privileged to be in that position! Were I ranching to pay the bills and live as good as city folks, I'd have a totally different attitude.
Example: On a friend's sheep and goat ranch, his first year of operation began with 1,000 goats. He had a 65% kid crop. He did extensive predator control during that fall and winter. The next spring, he had an 85% kid crop. 200 goats at $35 each made his wife and kids happier...
And I say again: As long as species survival is assured, all else is personal beliefs and morality--and is not germane to what people do. And this means your and my sport hunting, Muleshoe's predator control, and PETA's protests of your "terrible cruelty".
February 11, 2000, 05:50 PM
Colorado's mule deer population is not down any appreciable amount due to Chronic Wasting Disease. From the Division of Wildlife Fact Sheet - "Fewer than 200 cases, mostly in mule deer, have been documented since 1981." (http://www.dnr.state.co.us/wildlife/hunt/chronic.htm)
And I didn't say that they were "evil" or "vicious", I just told you what I have seen. I agree with you that they are smarter than their wildlife prey - which makes them light years ahead of sheep (dumbest animal i've ever been around).
I was just trying to make a point, as you did, that nature is full of predators and prey. And that sometimes peoples livelihood is tied, directly or indirectly, to the predator's prey. Actually, 'moon doggies' are one of the local wildlife I enjoy watching the most. Where I live (NW Colorado Springs) they inhabit the green space behind our house and are great for viewing at dawn and dusk. We have a den that we watch, and have seen a mother coyote carry pups in and out at various times. We also have people stop by, or leave flyers, for their missing pets. We've stoppped telling them about the what probably happened to there pets, and tell them that we will sure look for them, and give a call if we find them.
Talk to ranchers in your area. See if they have a problem with coyotes. If they do, ask if you can hunt there. Learn about coyote calling - see how close you can call them in. If thats not sporting enough, when you call one in stand up and watch him run off. Then when he gets out at a sporting distance - try shooting him out there. BTW - getting to know ranchers this way (helping out with varmits(prairie dogs) and coyotes) is a great way to get permission to hunt on their land at other times (like antelope or deer season). Just something for you to think about.
February 11, 2000, 07:47 PM
and If you beleive that stat there is some beach front property...
You know the rest.
I made an extensive study of CWD after i first heard of it and there were some scientists saying.. "look out colorado could loose their ENTIRE deer population to this disease." (for those of you that don't know chronic wasting disease is a disease like mad cow disease passed through mutant proteins called prions. This disease creates spngelike holes in the brains of those infected and affects the animal;s behavior until it ultimately starves or becomes confused enuff to fall easliy to a predator or car orvetc tec etc. This disease POSSIBLY (not proven) spread from sheep and there was a DUocumented outbreak at DOW's Fort Collins Office years ago ) Sorry i don't have ALL the facts at hand but i read everything i could about it.
as far as "documented cases" go that means theat 200 dead deer and elk heads have sufficiently been tested and tested positive. The deer population is down radicly on the front range and in the poudre river basin specificly. THE place where most CWD cases were reported. This rapid decilne in #'s is not due to predators, in fact MORE deer licenses were issued to thin the herds to slow the spread of the disease. More licenses were issued and LESS deer were taken. Consider how many field officers work for DOW, vs. how many deer there are in the state.. and the likelyhood of coming across one that has died in a given area and by what means it met its demise.
The good news is that it doesn't look like CWD has jumped from deer to people.. still i would not handle the spinal fluids/brains without surgical gloves. (like when you cape it or remove the horns)
SOMETHING is killing off the deer and its not coyotes.. and if its NOT CWD then its possible ther is another unknown pathogen running in the deer population (at least on the front range)
For the record the ONLY hunter that's been known to "overhunt" or "kill for fun" is Man, nature ispretty good at thinning out things her own way too.
just some food for thought.
February 12, 2000, 11:57 AM
To continue Dr. Rob's coyote legend, the Amer. Indians believe that the coyote will be the last living creature on earth, having survived even man...
Coyotes have actually benefited from man's encroachment into their habitat. Garbage piles, housepets, and livestock have all added greatly to existing coyote food sources. In fact, coyotes are the only predator to have actually expanded their range of habitation in the last 50 years or so.
There is little chance of overhunting them near human populations. I live in a fairly dense residential area in Memphis, TN, and I can hear at least three major packs singing to one another most nights. We have a nice deer herd nearby, too, mainly because the coyotes have turned to an easier food source--man's cast-offs.
So as the others have said, hunt coyotes in areas where they are threats to livestock, etc., if it makes you feel better.
I'm sympathetic with you, but for a different animal--the bobcat. Oh, they are beautiful!
But I guess as man hunts deer and birds, he seeks instinctively to eliminate his competition, just as coyotes and bobcats would seek to eliminate us, if THEY carried guns!
February 12, 2000, 12:31 PM
Hey, Dr. Rob: Minor nit-pick, but don't forget feral housecats in the killers-for-fun category... :)
"Sports Afield" or one of its brethren had an article 3-4 years back about a Wisconsin study. Their wildlife agency and a bunch of wildlife-biology grad students did a study of feral housecats. "F.h." includes farm and ranch house/barn cats as well as "in the wild". They concluded that one f.h. kills around 100 songbirds per year. They also concluded (methodology unknown) the f.h. population of Wisconsin at around a million.
I shoot every feral housecat I see.
Feral dogs are another target for CleanCut to keep an eye out for. Since they have been known to attack people, they seem to me to be a worthwhile game-animal.
February 12, 2000, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>CleanCut said:
"Art says "If you leave a coyote where you shot it, something will eat it." You mean, you'd really just leave it there, Art? Isn't
that kind of sloppy? Wouldn't want you on my land. Art then says, "As long as species survival is ensured, all else is personal beliefs and morality - and not germane to what other people do." What about The Hunt, Art? Is wanting to be sportsmanlike just about personal beliefs and morality? Where's the sport? "[/quote]
First, CleanCut, do you actually have any "land," as such? No, I'm not talking about a 5 acre "mini-ranch," I'm talking about a piece of LAND. Say, at least 50 acres. No? On most properties where varmint-hunting takes place, the acreage runs to hundreds and even thousands of acres. Sections, even. One 30-lb yodel-dog takes up very little space, indeed. We're not talking about a dead animal rotting on your front yard in the St. Augustine, to be hit by the morning paper. We're talking about an animal dying in the wild, to be consumed as animals are in the wild, by carion. Part of the cycle. Happens every day. Also consider that when you say that that's kind of messy, you're indicting EVERY SINGLE deer, elk, antelope, hog, moose, and bear hunter here. We ALL leave large gutpiles behind when we hunt. Better than half the time, I end up wrapping the entirety of my gut pile in the fresh hide to throw into a bush off the trail. This pile of guts and hide from a mature whitetail amount to every bit as much mass as the average dead coyote. "Isn't that kind of messy?" Nope. The possums, turkey buzzards, crows, ants, and coyotes will eat it.
Read the rest of Art's post. His point is that you aren't ever going to hurt the coyote population using traditional hunting means. His statement is that, if you're not hurting the population, your moral objection is just in the killing. You apparrently have to justify every thing you kill. "I kill for the meat. I kill the woodchucks because they're pests." You DON'T kill for the meat, and you know it! Hamburger is $.95/lb, and you're taking a $400 rifle out on a hunt that you spent your vacation money on, to bring back maybe 50 lbs of venison?! NO. One reason Man hunts is because he's a hunter. A predator. Morality in coyote-killing is trying to kill them without causing undue suffering, and not contributing to their extinction. Place your shot carefully, and don't use poison. There. You're a moral coyote hunter, and you don't have to take up free-range chicken-farming to feel that warm glow of morality. :)
# # # #
BTW, many of you know that Art is my personal friend, and may think that I would simply blindly jump to his defense. (as if I would have to...) Not so! I just feel that this incessant need to justify our hunting is going on too far! PROVE to me that we're cutting into the coyote populations with our techniques of hunting, and then we'll talk. Art speaks as someone with a CARREER background in environmental impact studies. The man thinks like a scientist, because, for all intents and purposes, he is one. He's very warm, but his convictions aren't swayed by emotion. FACTS, on the other hand, get the man's attention faster'n a gut-pile attracts a coyote! Got any?
[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited February 12, 2000).]
February 13, 2000, 03:19 AM
Wow guys, what a diverse bunch of opinions. Around here the coyotes, foxes, and feral cats are pretty much open season as far as the vast majority of landowners are concerned. I do know one farmer who allows coyote hunting about 6 months out of the year but he wants them to be left alone during the spring to help control the mole population around his sprinkler systems.
With the exception of the government trappers, most guys only shoot coyotes when they are prime. The critter is then sold to help pay for gas and ammo. If the pelt is blown to pieces or not prime, the coyote is left right where it dies.
Farmers and ranches shoot coyotes year round on sight and usually don't even walk over to the carcass. They just leave them. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's the way it is.
February 13, 2000, 12:05 PM
What a great discussion.
Around here anyway, the coyote population is VERY high. Since the fur market dropped fewer people are hunting coyotes, and the populations most of the small animals are dropping.
I used to shoot a lot of jackrabbits, now I see very few, definitely not enough to go out on a hunt for, and the pop. has been down for a long enough period of time that I doubt that it is a "natural cycle". Don't see near as many cottontails either.
The last weekend of pheasant season this year, we had about an inch of new snow (about all we've had this year) and I was out hunting by myself. I walked about 6 miles of fencelines, sloughs, shelterbelts, CRP, etc., and was walking in coyote tracks damn near the whole time. In many places, the yote tracks were following pheasant tracks.
We usually will kill several coyotes a year when bird huntin, a 12 guage will really roll them when they jump up from their meal of pheasant less than 5 yds away from you. When deer huntin, I have had packs of up to 7 yotes running around in front of my stand, but I usually wait till after I have a deer to start shooting coyotes.
By the way, rbbrew, mountain lions are definitely expanding their range, moving into places they haven't been seen in 100 years or more. There have been several killed in NE by accident or state officials in the last couple of years, mostly in the western part of the state. There have been "unconfirmed" (not confirmed by state officials) sightings in the northeast part of the state along the Niobrara. Several of the ranchers in the area I deer hunt have spotted one, and my father and I had a clear view of one at about 50 yds while turkey hunting. Makes you wonder about what you are calling in.
February 13, 2000, 01:45 PM
Guys, CleanCut doesn't really come across as other than maybe-young and definitely new to the hunting world.
I started out around age 5-1/2, following my grandfather around his farm/ranch. I learned about doctoring screw-worms in cattle and other doctoring--like the calf whose eye was kicked out by a plow horse. (My first reaction was (Ugh!"; I almost threw up.)
A Saturday stop on the weekly in-town shopping trip was my grandmother going into the drugstore and buying strychnine (came in a tube, like toothpaste) to put on bread to kill possums, skunks and raccoons which came around the hen-house at night.
Sunday dinner was the chicken I caught and killed that morning. Bacon and ham came from the occasional hog we slaughtered, not the grocery store.
There are better ways to go through life than plowing behind a horse, although it's an aid to one's notions of self-importance at age 8, since plowing a straight row is not all that easy.
And a tractor with a self-starter is better than one with a hand-crank, when you're 11 years old and skinny. I can tell you that picking cotton by hand at two cents per pound just really, really sucks!
I won't argue it's not cruel to gut-shoot a coyote with a .22 rimfire and leave him to die in a day or two...But ol' Wily is hell on quail and rabbits and housecats and housedogs and anything else he can catch and eat. That's why God put him here--he's part of the cycles of nature. And so I'll shoot such coyotes as their numbers lead me to believe that my notion of a proper "Balance of Nature" is better for me than "Natural".
I'm going to live in my own version of "Natural"--with a house and a car and all that. Any fool can live under a mesquite bush with a woven-thatch sorta-roof and eat grubs and roots...And I ain't no fool.
February 13, 2000, 08:19 PM
Boy, I sure learned alot about coyotes! As for me, I don't find justification in going out to a barren desert (original question) and picking on coyotes. Maybe, others feel OK about it. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Before you go, though, just take a look at the photo that started it all. I think a picture says a thousand words.
February 13, 2000, 10:05 PM
CleanCut, "barren" is a relative term. I live in Terlingua, on the west edge of Big Bend National Park. Definitely desert. Average annual rainfall of around 7" to 9", and you oughta be there the day it hits!
I've been in the desert area southwest of Las Vegas, as well as the Black Rock Desert northwest of Winnemucca. Lots of wildlife, lots of coyotes. "been" as in stomped around on foot, not just driving through...
I've also spent a good bit of time around Blountstown and Tallahassee in Florida. And, Thomasville, GA. Definitely not barren. Fewer coyotes in this part of the world than in Terlingua...
If you're not in Muleshoe's situation, you can afford to think in terms of "fair chase" and "hunter's ethic". I can, and do. He is in a totally different milieu, and for there he is absolutely morally correct.
Nobody was born an expert anything. Expertise is nothing more than overcoming ignorance. "Ignorance is curable; stupidity is forever." You don't at all sound stupid; you just have a way to go for expertise. Don't sweat it, you'll get there; we all had to start somewhere.
Thanx for the pix; I'll bookmark them.
February 13, 2000, 10:08 PM
As Art said earlier:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As long as species survival
is ensured, all else is personal beliefs and morality--and not germane
to what other people do.[/quote]
This quote sums up and encompasses the total ethical range of hunting.
All hunters have their biases and limits...just like all humans have on every single activity we are capable of.
I've killed coyotes...killed one 3 days ago on my farm...about 60 feet from my house. I wouldn't go out of my way to hunt puma or bear or any other predator, however I won't condemn nor think ill of those who do. Likewise, I won't hunt for trophies..but again I don't judge those who do.
Unless you hunt strictly and solely for food, not a single one of us has the right nor moral imperative to judge any other competent and ethical hunter. Once you have decided to take a life for reasons other than food or defense, you have abrogated the moral imperative to judge others.
You state you are a prospective varmint hunter...you used the perjorative term pests. Have you hunted before? Do you use the term pest as a rationalization to kill? Do you sincerely want to hunt? If so, why? Can you be satisfied by target shooting?
These are questions you must ask yourself.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
February 13, 2000, 10:52 PM
One more time. Cleancut, yes I am concerned about profit. Aren't you? I've got kids to feed, do you? Am I obsessed with money? Maybe so. If someone took $500 out of your pocket would you do nothing? Maybe you would take a picture and think of how cute he looks?
Yes I'm aware that this forum is called the hunt. I'm willing to bet I've called in and killed more coyotes while hunting than you've probably ever seen.
Why don't you be honest and clear up the purpose for your original post here. You say you are a prospective varmint hunter, then launch into how they could be someones dog. Oh my, how terrible!! While your out there hugging bunnies make sure "Ole Wiley" doesn't slip up and bite you in the butt. I think it's becoming quite clear what you are doing here.
bullet placement is gun control
[This message has been edited by muleshoe (edited February 13, 2000).]
February 14, 2000, 12:17 AM
Well, I might as well step in it. In my neck of the woods it is socially acceptable to kill critters for sport, and I do just that. I call in and kill dozens of predators a year. In the off season I shoot gophers and prarie dogs for fun. I don't promote it, and I don't condemn those who disagree.
While riding snowmobiles several years ago I chased a coyote down and mashed him into the snow. While parked on top of him I got a .22 pistol out of my tank bag. I drove off of the critter and shot him as he struggled to his feet. At the time, a mountain pelt like that fetched about $120.00.
My snowmobiling partner rode over and immediately told me what a dispicable ass I was for doing such a terrible thing. He lectured me on how the poor old coyote was just trying to "earn a living" out in the mountains and wasn't hurting a thing. Interestingly enough, my riding partner is a hunter, having killed a deer and an elk that fall. Heck, I took him deer hunting. It just so happened that I crossed the moral and ethical line as far as he was concerned.
Maybe Clean Cut is just trying to define where that line is as far as his own hunting practices. Who knows...?
February 14, 2000, 12:50 AM
That's right. It's my right to define where I draw that line. It's called free speech. This isn't the Soviet Union. It's also my right to criticize anyone else who crosses that line. To me, the argument's about SPORTSMANSHIP. It has nothing to do with 'expertise', experience with guns (and WRITING ABOUT IT!), etc. As I said before and I'll say it again, it's OK to get rid of coyotes to protect farm and livestock. My view isn't threatening anybody's livelihood. I just made a point about people who go out in the desert and take pot shots at coyotes.
See: www.varminter.com/pics/picdetail.cfm?counter=37. (http://www.varminter.com/pics/picdetail.cfm?counter=37.)
February 14, 2000, 02:38 AM
The pictures are worth a thousand words, but should we put them in the wrong mouth? Okay, so you twice posted a link to the same picture. A cute little coyote looks like it is asleep at the feet of some leering guy.
Just because the caption says something about the SoCal desert doesn't mean this guy drove his Land Rover 100 miles into the desert, put on snowshoes and hiked 20 miles over a mountain range, rappeled down a 150-foot cliff with his rifle between his teeth, then pot-shot this hapless coyote that was too far away from civilization to "bother" anyone.
The terrain reminds me very much of that surrounding my friend's house in Vista, CA. His house was (he moved to Carlsbad two years ago) also surrounded by about 500 houses on little quarter-acre lots. If you jumped the 7' solid wood fence in his back yard, you were in some of the meanest snake and coyote infested country between L.A. and Mexico, otherwise known as THE SOCAL DESERT.
Remember also that coyotes will cover anywhere from 2-5 miles per day to hunt, and the territory range of a single pack may be up to ten times that amount in square miles. In short, very few of them don't somehow butt up against human habitat.
I wouldn't suggest that you hunt ANYTHING if a picture brings you to conclusions that something excessive is going on with predator control. Wait 'till you start field dressing what you have killed, either for it's pelt or meat.
And there's nothing wrong with that approach, either. I took fifteen years off between deer hunts, just shooting at paper targets for fun, because I could not bring myself to shoot a deer the first couple of times I went. I helped my friends field dress and butcher theirs, but I just could not pull the trigger myself. This year I got one, and I'm writing this message with a bellyfull of wonderful venison steaks from earlier in the evening.
Bergie: Good to hear the mountain lion is expanding its range, also. This is another predator I would have a hard time shooting, though the cats tend to stay in the same areas, and the problem ones are easier to identify for elimination as a hazard. Sometimes it just has to be done...
February 14, 2000, 12:08 PM
It's a little known fact that crows are Federally protected. Some states have extremely generous seasons on them but they are protected nonethe less. Years ago in TX(I don't know how it is now), the lwa said something to the effect that you were not to kill crows unless they were damaging crops or somehow hurting something. The game wardens that I talked to said that they never saw a crow that wasn't doing something wrong or his way to do it so they didn't care how many or when you we shot them.
This brings us to coyotes. I have never seen one that wasn't on his way to do something he wasn't supposed to do and I kill most everyone that I see.
We sell guided varmint hunts here and coyotes are a big part of our living in the off season. We live in the middle of 30,000 acres of private land and there are also a lot of cattle on the land. So, that being the case, yes, coyotes are considered dangerous to the calves and to our domestic pets and farm animals but because they are so numerous, we also kill them for sport and profit. I just had two hunters here on the 12th and 13th for a coyote hunt. In the summer we add prairie dogs to the list.
I routinely shoot them right out my back door. If a cow dies, I drag it over within a couple hundred yards of the house and shoot coyotes off it when I don't have anything else to do.
Muleshoe, I agree with you about an ulterior motive here.
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
February 14, 2000, 02:04 PM
Desertscount, sounds like a great vacation. :cool: Never been to Texas, but I know I would thoroughly enjoy the hunting. :eek: Coyotes? Oh, why not. I never was one of those bleeding heart types. Really. I just kind of felt sorry for that one picture of the animal on that rock. :( Next time I'm in the desert, I'll take one out for you'all so you feel better. ;)
February 14, 2000, 05:02 PM
I live in the city and have had 3 (5+ possible) pets taken by Coyotes. I'll shoot them whenever I can, but since I can't shoot in the city, that means shooting them in the desert. I see it as keeping the populations low in their natural habitat so that they don't intrude on my natural habitat.
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