Do you carry OC / Pepper Spray?

[sarmstrong806]

Just wondering if anyone carries pepper spray, and if so what kind / brand?

I'm looking into getting some but I no nothing about them.

[JerryM]

I sometimes carry it. I use Fox.
It is widely available. Here is a place that has good prices.
http://www.tannersstorefront.com/secure/lawenforcement.asp?category_id=2&keyword_id=32
Jerry

[chris in va]

I need to. Last thing I want to do is shoot someone if it could have been thwarted by other means.

[armedandsafe]

We both carry pepper spray and passive restraints. I covered a trial in SoCal years ago where the prosecuting attorney tried to convince the jury that the defendant was "out looking for someone to shoot" because he didn't have any non-lethal means of protection on him. Since then, I have always carried OC and cuffs or cable ties.

Pops

[The Colin]

Yup i do. I carry the ASP Palm Defender. Its small, and it goes everywhere with me.

I've also gotten them for my Dad, Mom, younger sister (She finds trouble like a moth to flame) etc...

I got mine from...http://www.dallastacticalsupplies.com/itemdetails.asp?itemid=ASP52846

[U.F.O.]

Always. Fox Labs. OC is a nice stopgap between harsh language and bullets flying.

U.F.O.

[Capt Charlie]

Our issue stuff is from Defense Technologies/Federal Laboratories and is 10% OC. It (usually) works pretty well, but not always. You don't want to rely on it too heavily. That said, DON'T buy the stuff sold "over the counter" at Wal Mart, etc. It's worthless and probably won't do anything but pi** the bad guy off more. Order, or have someone order it through a reputable law enforcement supply outfit like Galls, etc. If you're a civilian, check your state's laws though. For some insane reason, it's either illegal or requires a permit in some states.

[smokinron]

I have looked at the fox spray listed at the above mentioned site. My question is, most of these say they contain 2% OC. Is that adequate? Are higher concentrations available to non LEO;s?
I like the idea of having a intermediate step between words and worse.

[tjhands]

I recently had a thread similar to this one. I bought two 2oz. cans of Fox 5.3 for.....I think $16 each. Do a search on Fox 5.3 and you'll hear some nasty stories from the people that had to have it sprayed on their faces for training purposes. They said it was just an incapacitating living hell, where all they wanted to do (or COULD do) was sit down, scream, and suck their thumbs. That sold me. I carry a can in my jeans pocket whenever I go "out."

[w4klr]

No, would you risk your life with a can of seasoning?

[PastorGW]

I carry a Fox 2oz OC. Got mine from J&L Distribution www.jlusa.com. I'm not sure I'd classify it as a seasoning.

[w4klr]

I'd recommend a taser as opposed to pepper spray, unless you are getting law enforcement grade (as in the kind where they won't sell unless you have a badge), it is pretty much useless. I've been maced plenty of times from perps while trying to make an arrest, and it tickles more than it stings. Then I'll hose 'em down and watch 'em cry, if the situation doesn't warrant my sidearm.

[TallPine]

No.

I am not a cop. Any use of force on my part is defensive rather than offensive. I don't need a level of force continuum to deal with suspects resisting arrest.

I don't go to bars and don't get into fistfights or yelling matches.

If a threat is close enough to use OC then it is already too dang close!!!

[Capt Charlie]

OK, there is a HUGE difference between the 2%, over the counter stuff and the 10%, or even 5.5% issued to law enforcement. The other comment about food seasoning is right... by comparison. Getting a dose of 2% is certainly not pleasant, but neither is it incapacitating. Even with the max 10%, I've seen a number of people just keep on fighting. A few don't even show any effects. In fact, in training, our officers are encouraged to continue fighting after getting sprayed, and most do with suprising effectiveness. The reason for this is that during an attempt to bring someone under control, a lot of times cops get caught by overspray. They need to learn that if they do get hit, they CAN successfully continue to fight. It is a good non-lethal defense, but you should never rely on it too heavily. It ain't perfect. As to obtaining the good stuff, well.... lets just say that it's GENERALLY not available to the public. If you look around, it's not all that hard to find. Some suppliers want ID or the order on a dept. letterhead. Others just say "sold to LE only", but don't ask any questions. It also varies from state to state. Bottom line: If you have the 2% OC, put it on the shelf next to the salt & pepper, and do a search for LE issue OC.

[U.F.O.]

Capt Charlie, I don't think that's true.

http://www.pepper-spray-store.com/relatedinfo/whatis.shtml

The 2% or 5% or 10% merely measures the thickness of the solution, not the strength. The actual effectiveness is a product of the SHU's. Many states limit their police forces to 2,000,000 SHU's for perceived liability reasons whereas civilian strength OC can be as powerful as 5,300,000 SHU's. The Scoville Heat Units are the yardstick for OC potency, not the percentage. LEO's with many depts. are actually at a disadvantage when it comes to OC effectiveness.

U.F.O.

[U.F.O.]

To add, the Fox Labs that I mentioned earlier in the thread that I carry is the 2% solution with 5,300,000 SHU's. You can't legally buy anything more powerful. :eek:

U.F.O.

[Capt Charlie]

Son of a gun if you aint right!! :o I either slept through that part of the class, or I was scrambling for a lot of cold, running water at the time :D Truthfully, I'd completely forgotten about the SKU's, and I did not know about the LE restrictions. Don't think I'd like to get hit with the Fox; our stuff is bad enough. Still, there is a lot of stuff being sold "over the counter" that is as phoney as a 3-dollar bill, and to the others, still be careful what you get.

[djw6611]

A thread like this always seems to come up every month or so and as hard as I try I can't help but chime in.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LAW ENFORCEMENT STRENGTH PEPPER SPRAY. In fact many law enforcement agencies carry WEAKER sprays than civilians to limit liability issues and the time required to "babysit" an arrested person waiting for the spray to wear off. Fox labs, sabre, punch, deftec - these are the most common sprays carried by law enforcement and they are ALL availiable to civilians. Hell I live in massachusetts where you need a firearms permit to even own pepper spray but I can still buy any kind I want.

Also percentages mean NOTHING. Theres crap out there thats "17% pepper spray" which isn't even a quarter as potent as 2% fox labs spray.

Ask yourself, 17% of what? If its some poor quality pepper spray than the percentage is useless. If on the other hand you have 2% of a very high quality refined spray (fox labs is 5,300,000 heat units, the average is 2,000,000), it will be much better.

Like I always say, don't be fooled by all the "highest percentage" and "strongest allowed by law", they are nothing more than marketing hypes. Stick with FOX LABS or SABRE RED and you'll be all set.

And to those who always say sprays are nothing more than seasoning:
experiance talks, bulls**t walks. Spray yourself square in the face with some fox labs and come back and tell us how tasty it was.

[Duxman]

As good as pepper sprays are, I prefer to depend on 23 or so years of martial arts training. After flying to SE Asia last month, (without any weapons whatsoever), I realized that there are going to be situations where one is unarmed.

So when the time comes, reflexes and training is all you are going to have to rely on, I am confident that I will pull through.

Relying on weapons, whether they are handguns, long arms or pepper spray is good IF you have them, which you are not going to have 100% of the time. Time to prepare for the worst.

[Capt Charlie]

Whoa thar, Nellie! I sure screwed up on some of my details :o and I was the instructee, not the instructor (next time I'll listen better :D ), but I HAVE been hit with several varieties, both in training and on the street. It's absolutely miserable! But one guy I did arrest tried his version on me, point blank. I kept waiting for the searing pain, but it didn't come. I can't remember what the brand was, but whatever it was, it does belong on the spice shelf! All of the other stuff? Well, I'm only familiar with Defense Tech, but I wouldn't want to use any of it as a breath spray. :D

[almark]

Wildfire pepper spray? Its 15% OC and 2,000,000 SHU. (http://www.eliteselfdefense.com/wildfire.htm) I bought some for my girlfriend a while back, but after reading some posts Im thinking of getting her the Fox Labs spray. If the wildfire is any good, i'll just keep it for myself... otherwise, i'll chuck it and get a can of fox labs for me too. So... any experience with the Wildfire brand?

PS: This is my first post... been lurking for a few months now, and I've learned a lot. Looking forward to learning even more in the future! :)

[Rojoe67]

If I had more space to conceal things then maybe? I don't think so unless I was in big bear country and then it wouldn't be concealed. The person whom said he isn't a LEO has a very good point. Some folks say they carry a knife or two, a back up firearm, pepper spray, cuffs or tie wraps, and so on....

I don't see how one could conceal all this stuff? To each his/her own. I like to travel lite and walk softly and quickly too.... I also steer clear of known trouble spots. Bars, late night clubs, gambling locations, men's clubs, drug neighborhoods and run down areas. Trouble can often be found if one looks for it or is careless and walks into it.... It's also true many folks end up in something and it can't be avoided.

[djw6611]

almark - never heard of wildfire personally, and I honestly wouldn't carry it.

Pepper spray is so cheap, even the highest quality stuff, so it doesnt make sense not to carry the best. Get the fox labs, $13 isn't a lot of money for some peace of mind that what your carry will actually work against 90% of the people you use it against (no spray is perfect)

oh and be sure to replace it every two years from the date of purchase.

Rojoe - you don't have to carry a big 2oz or 3oz container of spray (although it is what I reccommend). You can get the little 11gram canister of foxlabs and carry it on a "miska-clip" which you can find on www.comp-tac.com. Its just nice to have something between fists and hollowpoints ya know?

[perception]

That is the best thing I have ever heard about pepper spray. It is nice to have something between fists and hollowpoints.

[abelew]

I never had very much respect for pepper spray untill friday. I had to get sprayed, because I'm in the police acadeny at the moment, and everyone has to get sprayed, so they know what it feels like. And all I can say is, holy crap, it was the most intense burning, painfull experience that I can remember. Totally incapacitating, and it took about 30-45 minutes of cold shower, which didn't feel cold, and dawn dish soap in the eyes (yes, it felt good, suprisingly) to relieve the burning sensation in the eyes. This was from a short burst in the face, from 6 feet. Just thought you all might like a first hand account of how well this stuff works (if you get the good stuff). They never told us what make the spray was, I can only tell you how it felt.

[riverkeeper]

local female Nat Park person was attacked and wrestled to the ground by a serial rapist. She eventually got him solid with pepper spray and stopped the attack.

Spray ain't brains or magic in a can and applied properly may only be 70-80% effective. But we carry virtually 100% of the time. We've only used it on (mostly illegally) unleashed big dogs who chase and threaten us at under 8 ft when we jog. If their mothers or owners wont train them ---we will.

[Para Bellum]

(mostly illegally) unleashed big dogs who chase and threaten us at under 8 ft when we jog.
that's one of the things I can stand the least. Gr-rrr

If their mothers or owners wont train them ---we will.
:) :D

[Lion In Winter]

To be the "contrarian" here, imagine what a prosecuting attorney could say to a jury when he directs their attention to your self defense "tools"; a handgun or two, a reload or two, pepper spray, taser, clip it knife and maybe an expanding baton.

"You need all this to go to the store for a loaf of bread?---Mr. Rambo!"

At some point, the realization may come that there is no deflecting a smart a-- question in a court room nor avoiding using lethal force.

[Kalindras]

Yep, we carry, every day. Being a correctional officer, it's all we get, so you better believe that we gotta be confident in it!

We carry a number of different flavours, but they all work about the same. We use LE-10, Sabre Red, and another one that escapes me, just now. They're all around 10%, and as others can and have attested, if you don't think you can trust its ability to 'distract' you from pretty much anything but screaming and clawing at your face, then I would like to invite you to try some out on yourself. Only, if you decide to, please video it and post it on the internet... :D

Finally, one note about the Fox Labs stuff. It's hot. DAMNED hot. I'm led to understand by one of my fellow officers (who had the unpleasant misfortune of being a test subject in an, er...'unofficial'...comparison) that it will blister skin ON CONTACT. While this is certainly not your top concern at the time a mugger/rapist/goblin is attempting to waylay you, it may become a concern when said Bad Guy decides to sue you for damages, pain and suffering, and whatnot, later.

Just something to keep in mind. Pretty much the same argument as whether or not to load your CCW with hollowpoints or ball, from that standpoint. You want the best to protect yourself, but unfortunately, the best defense can also be the most costly, afterward. Unfortunately, this is a conundrum I have yet to resolve :( . If anyone comes up with a solution that works all the way 'round, please let me know!!

[djw6611]

I really wouldn't worry about reports of fox labs "blistering on contact". Hell if it does all the better. But in the very unlikely event that it does end up in a court room, fox labs is ONLY 2% pepper spray (not that that matters but a jury would think so), compared to the standard 10%. Plus it is a widely used and accepted spray in both the civilian and law enforcement fields, so you shouldn't run into any problems.

[U.F.O.]

djw6611, read some of the previous posts in this thread. You, also, are confused about the meaning of the 2%/10% in regards to OC. Those percentages have nothing to do with the heat of the mixture.

U.F.O.

[abelew]

UFO is correct, just because a spray is 10% compaired to 2% does not mean that the 2% is less painfull. Pepper spray is measured in "hottness" using the scoville heat unit. If the 2% spray has a higher SHU, then it is actually a "hotter spray than the 10%. Food for thought, next time you buy a spray, compaire the rating, not the percentage, if you want the "hottest."

Also, I feel that if you can articulate why you had other options avaliable, then that question would work for you, instead of against you. No sane person is going to carry a gun, spray, tazer, asp, club, knife, sword, and billy club to buy bread. However, if you carried spray and a gun, then you could always point out that not all situations warrent deadly force, and that you, as a responsible person who is concerned with your personal safety, wanted an intermediate option to go to. Spray has no effect, other than causing a very strong burning sensation, and does not do any actual physical harm. Then point out that police carry it for that reason also. Personally, I feel that if your going to carry a gun, then it is respoinsiable to carry spray, because even in a fist fight, there is a gun present (yours), so you wanted an option to prevent the person from incapacitating you, and using your gun against you and others. If someone pulled spray on me, (from personal experience with spray already mentioned in this thread), I would shoot them, because I will be incapacitated if I am sprayed (after being sworn in as a LEO), and my firearm could be taken and used against me. Now, don't take this to mean that a civilian can shoot a person for pulling spray on them, talk to your lawyer. However, the FL use of force matrix does allow that action for that reason.

[almark]

I agree with abelew and UFO on the SHU vs. percentage issue, however, I think you guys might have misread djw6611's post. I believe he intended it be more like "It's 'ONLY' 2%..." as in, that would sound like a good thing in court if it should happen to blister the BG. djw6611 states that the percentage doesn't matter, but to your average, uninformed citizen (aka jury member) it would sound like you "didn't wanna hurt the guy too bad... thats why I use the 2% spray..." That's how I read the post anyway. :)

[U.F.O.]

Thx. almark. After a re-read I think you're right on his intent. Also, his previous posts thoroughly indicate he knows the drill.

U.F.O.

[djw6611]

Yeah it may have come out wrong but I was just saying "in the mind of a juror" when you say "oh this spray is ONLY 2%" they will think it is somehow less potent etc etc and as such you will be let off.

You are all correct in that it is the heat level that matters. But also keep in mind that a 2% spray will wear off faster than a 10% spray. Some departments use these lower percentage sprays for lower decon times of prisoners (so they don't have to babysit them waiting for it to wear off). A 2% spray might take say 20 minutes while a 10% maybe 30-45 minutes.

Decon time doesnt really matter to me, its the inital takedown power that counts which is why I like FOX. If I can't get away from a BG in 15-20 minutes something is wrong. Plus with foxlabs on your face each minute feels like an hour! ;)

[abelew]

DJW, did ya test it on yourself? :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

[djw6611]

never took a direct hit to the face but have had it blow back onto me during use and been inside rooms where it had been used. the burning is bad but it made me cough so hard I almost puked :eek:

[TallPine]

Another thing ... since I have asthma, I don't even want to find out what even a whiff of OC might do to me ... :(

I have taken to carrying a Maxfire flashlight. Since a lot of bad things happen in low light, I figure my first line of defense is too light up someone suspicious that approaches me. Lets me see what is going on and pretty much blinds them in the process.

[caegal]

To be the "contrarian" here, imagine what a prosecuting attorney could say to a jury when he directs their attention to your self defense "tools"; a handgun or two, a reload or two, pepper spray, taser, clip it knife and maybe an expanding baton."You need all this to go to the store for a loaf of bread?---Mr. Rambo!"

The bigger fear would be if you had pepper spray and a gun, and you decided to use the gun. The fear then would be that the DA would be able to show that you had a less lethal weapon, and instead went for the kill. The DA would try to prove that you could of disarmed the BG, and instead chose the gun because of some sort of Charles Bronson fixation.

[U.F.O.]

I don't see that as a problem. If some maniac is running at you with a raised machete screaming "die pig die" I don't see any reasonable person, DA included, who would argue that you had a responsibility to start with the non-lethal OC. You're allowed to meet lethal offensive force with lethal defensive force, bypassing the conversation, fists, OC etc. in the process.

U.F.O.

[caegal]

You are probably right about it not happening. I was just stating what the arguement would be if an attorney did decide to prosecute when you had the pepper spray and a gun. It was only meant in the context of a possible legal liability of carrying multiple weapons and choosing one over the other. The statement was not intended to be advice to not carry multiple means of self defense.


The police are already facing issues about using less lethal means. Children, elderly, and handicapped people getting pepper sprayed and tazered make the headlines all the time. The questions are always, "why did the police use that, instead of less lethal means?" The same question can be asked if you decide to shoot instead of pepper spray someone. That does not mean that a DA will prosecute, just that there is the question. And whenever there is a question that is hanging out there that sound reasonable enough, then there is a chance of at least a civil lawsuit.

[U.F.O.]

Not to worry caegal. Carry OC and a firearm. If some big mug starts to try and beat your brains out with his fists.....squirt him with the OC and vacate. If he picks up a baseball bat.....tire iron.....screwdriver.....knife.....gun.....shoot him and let the chips fall where they may. I'll take a lawsuit any day over a screwdriver in the chest. Meet force with force. If you don't do it.....you'll likely end up dead. Damn the attorneys.

U.F.O.