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View Full Version : Defense load Buckshot, Slugs or lighter shot?


Para Bellum
March 28, 2005, 04:54 PM
I own a rather weird but sweet 30year old russian double-barrel (28") shotgun, see http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162059
I use it for moving-target training as a supplement to my pistol training. And for fun. Just started, but I enjoy clay pigeons. :)

So, I want to keep this double-barrel ready with a defense load. The scenario could be a wild dog outside or bad guys trying to break into my place. I have two triggers for two barrels and chan choose what to shoot first and what to shoot second. So I thought, maybe a slug (which one) in the long-distance first barrel and maybe 00 buckshot (9 balls 8,7 mm) in the second barrel?

What do you recommend? Lighter shot maybe due to penetration risks?
Thank you for your time and thought.

jonathon
March 28, 2005, 04:57 PM
We keep ours loaded with #4 buckshot. Slugs might be a bit much, considering that dogs and humans aren't very tough, and a load of lead would drop just about any two legged beast... just remember with any shot, you have to aim ;)

WillBrayjr
March 28, 2005, 05:27 PM
Remington has managed loads in both slugs and buckshot that should be right up your alley.

kudu
March 28, 2005, 06:16 PM
I don't know how available our domestic ammo is for you in Europe, but #4 buck or even BB size lead loads would drop a dog or intruder inside of 20 yards(about 15 meters). I use #2 birdshot and BB's for coyote hunting here, 25-40pound animal, depending how well fed they are. These loads will drop them out to 50+ yards depending on the pattern of the barrel. A close in target gets the majority of shot in 2-3", that's probably within 30feet(7-8 meters). Slugs will travel and be lethal beyond a kilometer if they don't hit something big enough to stop them first.

Para Bellum
March 31, 2005, 05:49 PM
Mhm, I am still struggling, here are the facts:

00 Buckshot Technical Data (Rottweil Express Cal. 12/23/4“)
• muzzle velocity: 390 m/s
• mean chamber pressure: max. 740 bar
• energy (muzzle): 2527 Joule


Slug Technical Data (Rottweil Brenneke Cal. 12/23/4“Mag.)
• muzzle velocity: 440 m/s
• mean chamber pressure: max. 1050 bar
• energy (muzzle): 3048 Joule

Slug seems stronger. But what is better for a stopping effect (COM placement): one big hit or nine smaller ones?

Person of Interest
March 31, 2005, 06:15 PM
At 25 feet or less (sorry, about 3 meters?) it really doesn't matter what shot size one uses in the 12 gauge. For in-home use I would advise #6 birdshot. Across a room it will tear a man in half but won't go sailing through walls, too badly. Outside, where distances may open up to say, 25 yards (um... 20 meters?) buckshot of #00 to #4 persaution works fine. Longer than this and you need a rifle. I would pass on slugs unless limited to the shotgun. If I am firing a single projectile the shotgun isn't my first choice.

AKhunter
March 31, 2005, 07:41 PM
Your shotgun is a 2 3/4" chamber gun. Are those 70mm shells? Usually, over here, magnum is used to refer to 76mm shells.

AK

BillCA
March 31, 2005, 10:29 PM
I have to agree that inside the home, #6 or #4 birdshot will be devastating against someone at 5-10 meters (7-10 yards) and it reduces the penetration though walls - yours or the neighbors!

Outside the home #4 buckshot seems to do a marvelous job on "critters" that walk instead of fly. Keeping your shotgun loaded with one barrel of #6 (or #4) and the other with #4 buckshot will probably mean you've covered 98% of cases.

22-rimfire
March 31, 2005, 11:22 PM
I agree with the No. 4 and No. 6 shot. One additional note for consideration are the Aguila "Mini shells". I know you have a double; but with a pump type shotgun, you can increase the number of rounds in in the magazine by a factor of at least 2x. Pretty cool. I believe they are sold with No. 4 shot and slugs.

Para Bellum
April 1, 2005, 11:25 AM
thanks everybody. I'll stick with #4 and #6 then...

Brobee
April 1, 2005, 11:14 PM
#4 or #1 buck would be my choice...

I did some shotgun load ballistic gelatin testing (http://www.tacticalworks.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html) that might help with your own evaluation as to what might work best in your situation. The gelatin tests are about 2/3 the way down the page.

Good luck...

Brobee
www.tacticalworks.ca (http://www.tacticalworks.ca)

2002gti
April 1, 2005, 11:21 PM
im stocked with #4 buck in my hd but im really thinking that any load would do great.

redhawk41
April 1, 2005, 11:27 PM
i have my 870 loaded with 2-#6 and 2-#4.

after patterning the #6 at home defense ranges i feel confident that it would cause a world of hurt. it all goes into one hole made by the shotcup.

also means you have to aim

Para Bellum
April 2, 2005, 01:02 AM
will your gun chamber either of those?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Your shotgun is a 2 3/4" chamber gun. Are those 70mm shells? Usually, over here, magnum is used to refer to 76mm shells.

yep. It's a 12/70(mm) i.e. 2 3/4". It will feed the ones I listed above. I think the manufacturer calls the 70mms Magnum because it doesn't produce any Buckshot in 70mm, only 67mm. The might think that's enough powder for only 9 pellets...

GunnyBob
April 12, 2005, 03:03 AM
Kudos for the good work, brobee; your results mirror what Dr. Fackler had to say concerning the effects of #1 buck:

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal.

If you choose a reduced recoil load or any load containing hardened Magnum #00 buckshot you increase the risk of over-penetration because these innovations assist in maintaining pellet shape integrity. Round pellets have better sectional density for deeper penetration than deformed pellets.

Fourth choice is any 2 ¾-inch Magnum shotshell that is loaded with hardened, plated and buffered #4 buckshot. The Magnum cartridge has the lowest velocity, and the lower velocity will help to minimize pellet deformation on impact. The hardened buckshot and buffering granules also help to minimize pellet deformation too. These three innovations help to maximize pellet penetration. Number 4 hardened buckshot is a marginal performer. Some of the hardened buckshot will penetrate at least 12 inches deep and some will not.

Death from Afar
April 12, 2005, 03:09 AM
I agree with #4 Buck. Slugs are too inaccurate, and penetrate too much. You loose all the advnatages of a shotty with slugs.

Third_Rail
April 12, 2005, 12:51 PM
I don't know about losing all of the advantages.... 29 grams of lead moving at 1400 FPS seems like a pretty good deal to me!

Death from Afar
April 12, 2005, 02:53 PM
Oh yes, a slug can solve a lot of lifes little problems- but you want a shotgun to make it easier to hit a fleeting target. If you want a single projectile, why not use a rifle?

Rojoe67
April 12, 2005, 03:27 PM
If I would use or plan on a double/coach gun mine would have (2) same loads of Turkey shot......... #4 or #5 close defensive shot will work just fine for my needs..... Again if it's defending my life it's likely -10 yards. That would be 30' This is my view point only. I expect half will agree with me and half will say no way Rojoe.......

You do your thing........and I'll do mine ;)

vitesse9
April 12, 2005, 05:30 PM
Many will probably argue against this load because it does not penetrate very well (as evidenced by the ballistic gelatin pics). But, my first priority is to avoid shooting through walls and harming unintended targets. I am confident that at very close range, which is the only scenerio where I would feel that shooting an intruder is warranted, this stuff will still stop an attack, albeit not as effectively as buckshot or slugs. It's a tradeoff I guess.

Para Bellum
April 13, 2005, 02:11 PM
thanks for the detailed information!
stay safe