best non jhp load for self defence in 44 special

[agent00]

hi, I am new on this board and I am from austria. :) . And I will buy soon a sixgun in 44 special for fun shooting. And my first question is allready in the subject line. Unfortunatelly in my country jhp ammo is not allowed for small arms, and I need some tipps for a good non hp sd load in 44 special. My question is more theoretical , because in my country the crime rate is not so high and it is very unlikly that I have to use my gun to safe my life, but I in any case of ermgency I want to be prepared.

[abelew]

Federal makes a expanding full metal jacket, that uses a sillicone insert inside of the jacket that allows it to expand, without having a hollowpoint design. These would probably be a good idea if you can get them.

[itsmike762]

If I were to limited to non-jhps I would have to go with a 240gr swc. The blunt tip would cut a good amount of tissue and that should stop an attacker well. The same bullet on deer in a .44 mag round is what I use. Never had one run more than 30 yards and a deer is a lot harder to stop than a man.

[Rojoe67]

Well, 44 Special is a little tough to find in what your looking for. I see Winchester has a 246g. That has a muzzle velocity of 755 and 310 lbs energy. Remington offers the same cartridge with the same ballistic details. I should have stated this is a round nose bullet too. One more I just found is PMC in a 240g. SWC with energy at 308 and the velocity of 760fps. As Mike above stated I think it's the best of the 3 I listed for you?
Good luck..... :D

[Sturm]

Doesn't someone also make a load using 200 Gr. SWCHP? I was thinking Cor-Bon or Winchester did. This would be my choice unless the HP law also applies to lead bullets. Our FBI used the .38 Special 158 gr. +P SWCHP for years in their Model 13, 3" .357 Magnum revolvers with decent results. ;)

[KC135]

Federal makes a 200gr+P Lead hollow point. Does not seem to do real well in Jello, but should be OK from a 5 or 6" barrel.

No EFMJ or PB in 44 Special.

Next choice if any HP is prohibited, would be a 200gr full wad cutter, out of fairly soft lead, at 1000fps.

[publius]

Full Wadcutter should give excellent results.

[Brasso]

Remington used to, and may still, make a 200gr lead semi wadcutter for the .44spl. They should be easy to find.

[Jeffro250]

Either a full or semi-wadcutter made out of fairly soft lead would be the ticket...the wide metplat will cause all sorts of havok when shot at tissue and will still give good penetration. The 44 special makes up for its lack of velocity with its large caliber and heavy bullets, so dont worry about hotrodding them. A 200-250 grain bullet in the neighborhood of 800 or so FPS should give you just as good of results as any hollowpoint and makes a fanstastic short range hunting load.

[agent00]

ok, thanks for your answers, and swc ammo is allowed in my country, mayby it is even possible to use lead hp. But I think usinge wadcutter ammo would be a great idea.

ps: what would be better if i had the choice between swc and lead hp ammo?

[FirstFreedom]

I don't know if Commando/The Governator would approve of a wimpy .44 special load - go magnum, baby! And it must be in a Desert Eagle. :) JK - you've gotten good responses so far.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

agent00,

I carry 250 grain Keith Style SWC's in my 696 every day for CCW. I reload my own, but there are a number of factory options available to you. I have inserted a link below that should give you some interesting ideas. It is from MidwayUsa's site and you will note there are several brands of .44 special SWC's and LFP bullet types. I would stay away from the cowboy loads, but look at the PMC 240 LSWC, and the American Ammunition 240 JSP. I personally prefer these types of loads to the JHP's in this caliber, due to light weight of JHP's and the slow velocity of factory .44 specials. JHP bullets are great when accompanied by the velocity to open them correctly. When the velocity is not available, I want the extra weight. Good luck.

.44mag

[url]http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=3&Categoryid

[tulsamal]

slow velocity of factory .44 specials. JHP bullets are great when accompanied by the velocity to open them correctly

I carry a .44 Special every day myself (296). But I carry the CorBon load. I _think_ 1150 fps out of a two inch barrel ought to be good enough to get that 165 grain JHP starting to open!

Really the CorBon load is almost too fast for that bullet. I would really prefer it if CorBon would change to a 180 grain Gold Dot bullet at 100 fps slower. That would be good enough for me.

Gregg

[agent00]

ok, thanks for the interesting link. :)

ps: would there be a great risk of overpentration when using wadcutter or lead hp bullets

[hotntot12]

...200 gr. gold dot hollow point--very good destructive power.At least of what I seen it hit.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

But I carry the CorBon load. I _think_ 1150 fps out of a two inch barrel ought to be good enough to get that 165 grain JHP starting to open!

Tulsamal,

Good morning. Please forgive me upfront, but I was a little unsure of your posted ballistics on the .44 Special Corbon load, so I took the time and emailed Corbon asking what length barrel they use to get the posted ballistics. I have posted their response below. As you can see, the 1150fps rating they post on their site was chronographed from a 4” Model 29. Have you actually chronographed your gun to see what you are getting? I would suggest that you are not reaching the 1100 fps mark, and are probably closer to the 1,050 fps mark. Keep in mind that most factory loads are in the 900 fps range. I don’t disagree that the Corbon load is a fast load, but very few people consider Corbon to be a factory load. My comments about JHP loads not expanding were related to Factory loads as I stated in my earlier post. I would also point out that you are talking about a specialty load that costs $17.12 USD for a box of 20 rounds. By comparison both loads I suggested earlier are in the same price range for a 50 round box. The reason I point out cost is that is it more important for a shooter to practice with their intended CCW load so that they can actually hit what they are aiming at. I would have to say that a shooter who took the time and expense to practice with Corbon ammunition would be in great shape to defend himself/herself, but few shooters will spend that kind of money. It is a sad fact that people can be cheap when their life could be at stake. Well have a great day.

.44mag


Corbon Email:


From: info [mailto:info@corbon.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:12 AM
To: .44mag@ucnsb.net
Subject: RE: 44 Special Load Information

.44mag,

We used a 4" model 29 for the 44-165 velocities!

Mike Shovel
Sales Manager
COR-BON/Glaser

Original Message to Corbon:

From: .44mag@ucnsb.net
Sent: Tue 3/8/2005 6:29 AM
To: info
Subject: 44 Special Load Information
Dear Sir or Ma’am,

Good morning. I was hoping you could tell me what length barrel your listed ballistics for the .44 Special 165 grain load were chronographed using. I appreciate your help. Thank you.

.44mag

[agent00]

thx again for your answers, but I also could be possible that I 'll buy a sixgun in 45 colt or mayby in 41 magnum. I will go tomorow to a gun shop and I will compare the prices. and are ther also good non jhp loads in this 2 mentioned calibers suitable for sd?

[Robert Allison]

I'm not sure whether you'll be reloading there in Austria, but if you have that option then I'd agree with what several others have said about hard-cast semi-wadcutter/Keith style bullets in any of the calibers you have mentioned, the 41 Mag, the 44 Special (or 44 Magnum for that matter), or the 45 Colt. I've never had a 41, but have fired lots of 44s, both Specials and Magnums, as well as the old 45 Colt (I don't particularly like this cartridge other than for it's nostalgic niche), and think that Keith SWCs are one of the better bullet selections, even in this country where all sorts of other options are available. I've used SWCs, cast very hard, in a 357 Magnum, to bag several deer, with very good results. However yes, they can overpenetrate.

[Gazpacho]

Considering the restriction on JHP, Glazer Safety Slugs or Magsafe ammo might also be on the no-no list, but if not, in 44 Special either would be a potent defense round.

Glazer info from Corbon
44 Special-1350fps / 546ftlbs

[agent00]

thx for your tipps.

[Hal]

agent00,
No hollow points means you're going to be using much the same style of ammunition as David Berkowitz,aka the Son of Sam used 29 years ago.
FWIW, the .44spl (I assume in his case it was the 246 gr round nose lead), had absolutly dismal performace.
13 shot - 6 killed - of the 6 killed (IIRC) only 2 or 3 were instantly put down.
(23%?)
I've brought this up before, and it was poo-pooed as the "Actions of a head case", and dismissed at that. I can't disagree more.
As disgusting as it is,,,it's real life data,,not some labratory - ideal condition - gel test.

Take way decent ammunition style, and the .44spl is little better than a .25 or a .32 or a .38.

Up the velocity and/or use better designed ammunition and it's a different story.

[Al Thompson]

IMHO, using a LSWC will give you better performance than standard .45 auto FMJ (hardball). Lots of knowledgeable folks like hardball for SD, so it looks to me like your doing OK. :)

I would not worry about over penetration - it's a factor, but as long as your defending your home, your probably OK. All the homes I lived in and visited in Germany were much better built than American homes.

The old 246 round nose was both slow and had poor bullets (RNL sucks). In any use of a handgun, shot placement is key. IME, handguns are much closer to arrows than they are to rifles - no shock power, just blood loss. Lots of discussion on stopping power in the archives. :)

[agent00]

ok, thx again for your answers.

ps: would there be a great difference between semi wadcutter and lead hp rounds in terminal performance

[LAK]

I would look for the widest lead flatnose "cowboy" load if you can get them over there.

[Tamara]

ps: would there be a great difference between semi wadcutter and lead hp rounds in terminal performance

Depends on what's most important to you. A 200gr LSWC-HP may expand, but it wasn't long on sectional density to begin with. A 255gr LSWC from Buffalo Bore (http://www.buffalobore.com/), on the other hand, will punch a .429" hole clean through an assailant, no matter what angle it hits from, but will not expand.

[Gunmann]

Remember to watch what is behind your intended target because a
44 special semiwadcutter has a lot of "Durchgriff". Hope it's winter and they are wearing heavy clothes if you ever have to use it! :eek:

[agent00]

thx for your answer. And I hope that I've never to use my gun for sd. But would there also be non jhp load with less risk of overpenetration? What about the effiency of flat nose coboy ammo? would they offer also good results without the risk over overpenetration?

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

Remember to watch what is behind your intended target because a
44 special semiwadcutter has a lot of "Durchgriff". Hope it's winter and they are wearing heavy clothes if you ever have to use it!

When it is loaded in it's hunting configurations yes, in factory loadings there is not enough velocity.


Agent00,

Keep in mind that Any bullet (JHP or SWC) with enough velocity behind it will go through a person. Pushing a 240 to 250 grain SWC at around 850-900fps will not cause undue concern for overpenetration. If you are a speed junkie and want to pump it up to the 1,100 - 1,200fps range then yes you have to worry about overpenetration. The Buffalo Bore load (255 SWC @ 1000fps) that Tamara pointed out is intended for hunting not SD. While it would suffice, yes overpentration could be a concern. Keep in mind that there are schools of judgement that believe two bleeding holes are better than one. I would push you more toward the loads I pointed out originally that are only going 850 to 900fps with 240 to 250 grain SWC's. Clint Smith, a noted self defense firearms instructor, worked with Black Hills to develop their 250 grain SWC @ 850fps for the Model 21 Thunder Ranch Edition .44 Special pistol. I find it interesting that he would pick a SWC bullet when he has the ability to use any JHP on the market. Many people in today's world feel that SWC bullets are old fashioned and poor performers in a world of high speed hollow point bullets, but when you can't use those hollow points, the old tried and true SWC bullet is truly your best option.

Good luck and have a great day.

.44mag

[snubby]

Corbon is planning to bring out a DPX load for the 44 Spl. This is an all-copper hollow point bullet (hence, not JHP) which, at least in the other calibers currently available for testing, has been demonstrated to expand through most media across a wide velocity range. They'll probably be pricey, but might suit your SD needs once they come out.

[agent00]

thx for your answers. And penetration power is nothing bad, but its very dagnerous for inconcent bystanders in an sd sutuation. But I think a wadcutter bullet would be good sd bullet. I would only have to watch inocent bystanders. And this dpx bullet sounds interesting.

ps: the main purpose for my gun will by fun target shooting, but somehow I am intersted in handgun hunting too. I asume a semi-wadcutter bullet would be a good hunting and sd load.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

Agent00,

I think you are on the right track. Let me ask you a few questions if you don’t mind.

Have you decided upon what gun and caliber you wish to get?
Are you going to reload ammunition?
What type of animals will you be hunting?

If you can answer these questions, I can give you some idea what exact loads would suit both your needs. Thanks.

.44mag

[agent00]

I will buy an smith&wesson model 396 in 44 special, but I would be also intersted in an 44 magnum revolver, but I am a newie in bog bore sixguns. I have only experience in using an 9 mm semi-auto pistol.

And yes, I would be intersted in learning reloading. And I would like to hunt deer.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

Agent00,

If your only interest was to carry concealed then the 396 would not be a bad choice. But with hunting, a 3 1/8" barrel in .44 Special would not be preferable. A 4" gun is a good comprimise between concealed carry, target shooting, and hunting. I would steer you towards a .44 Magnum so that you can shoot .44 Specials or .44 Magnums. This will allow you the choice when carrying for defense to use the less powerful .44 Specials. Smith and Wesson sells a few pistols I would point you towards. I have listed them below with personal experience from each.

329PD - SKU: 163414
4" Scandium .44 Magnum
This is a very light weight gun for .44 magnum with heavy recoil from even the lightest .44 magnum loads and hard to control by a novice big bore shooter.

629 - SKU: 163603
4" Stainless or Blued .44 Magnum
Very reliable, will allow you to shoot the heaviest factory loads without issue. Recoil is managable with all factory loads.

.44 Mountain Gun - No longer made, still available used.
4" Stainless Tapered Barrel (Very Similar to the 396, but slightly larger)
Very reliable, will allow you to shoot heavy factory loads without issue. Recoil is increased as this gun weighs less than the 629.

All three of these pistols are accurate and concealable without too much trouble. Definately not light clothing CCW pistols. You will also be able to shoot .44 special in all three of these pistols for Self Defense.

I gotta run, but will post some loading data later.

.44mag

[agent00]

thx for your pistol recomodations and I am looking forward reading your loading data.

[Hal]

Re. loading data.

I've been handloading the .44 Remington Magnum for close to 3 decades.

What won't fall to 17.5 gr of Hercules (now Alliant) 2400 under a 240 cast lead semi wadcutter, will go down if you bump that charge up to max (~ 22 grains of 2400) using a standard large pistol primer (not magnum primers)

17.5 gr of 2400 is stout (compared to most .44spl loads), but not anywhere near unpleasant.

"On paper" meaning not actually chronoed, that 17.5 gr load should deliver between 900 fps (from a 4" Revolver) to just over 1100 fps (from my 18" Winchester Trapper)

[agent00]

thanks for the loading data.

[agent00]

And by a 240 grain swc bullet in 44 magnum also suitable for hunting deer?