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cool cat
January 19, 2000, 01:49 PM
Could some one just file the secondary sear to get a full auto? I would never try this, just wanter to know if it were posible.

James K
January 19, 2000, 04:01 PM
1. No. Maybe you could get a couple of shots to go, but that gun is designed not to fire on hammer follow-down.

2. If there was a problem, filing the sear would be seen as an attempt to manufacture a machinegun.

Jim

Donny
January 21, 2000, 01:29 AM
As Jim pointed out, "working" on the secondary sear performs no useful purpose.
The result of just taking the secondary sear out, or filing it, is the hammer simply follows the bolt to lock position, and you have no energy to impart to the firing pin. Without a way to sense the locking of the bolt, and therefore getting a full strike with the hammer, you can't reliable and SAFELY perform the feat.

Second, he's right about modifying the mechanism.

Best Regards,
Don

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited January 21, 2000).]

KAC556
January 23, 2000, 10:58 PM
Reliable, safe, and legal select fire versions of the Ruger rifle, achieve automatic fire by means of a secondary sear and connector system that allows the hammer to be released only when the bolt is approximately .120" from final lock up. To try to achieve "slam-fire" of one of these rifles, is not only illegal, but also dangerous and unreliable.

James K
January 24, 2000, 01:40 PM
Just FYI,

Technically, hammer follow down and slam fire are two different things. The former involves the hammer (for whatever reason) following the bolt down as it closes. The hammer will sometimes retain enough energy to fire the gun, though this is not reliable. In guns like the M1, M14, and Mini14, a bridge in the receiver does not allow the firing pin to go forward until the bolt is fully locked.

Slam fire, on the other hand, is caused when the bolt itself going closed sets off the cartridge. True slamfire in such rifles can be the result of a defective or broken firing pin, extremely sensitive primer, or a too-heavy firing pin. If a slam fire ignites the primer before the bolt is locked (as would happen with a broken firing pin stuck in the forward position), there will be unpleasant happenings.

SMGs usually use slam fire, but with low power pistol cartridges which do not require a locked breech.

Jim

blades67
January 24, 2000, 05:57 PM
cool cat, I understand that your question is just curiosity, but you have to be aware that the very nature of your question could be taken badly. Altering a weapons firing mechanism in such a way as you ask is a felony. Even if it doesn't work, the attempt is enough to get you arrested. (Ruby Ridge began as a result of undercover BATF agents pressuring Randy Weaver into making illegal modifications to a couple of shotguns.) As I can only speak for myself, I think questions like yours should be emailed to a moderator or an administrator first, giving them the opportunity to answer you or direct you to the best person to answer your question. I see questions such as yours as a double-edged sword because it cuts both ways. I can see the value in knowing one way or the other, but there are people in this world that would use this kind of information to make us look bad (the anti-gunners), or to modify a weapon for illegal uses (can you say North Hollywood bank robbery?). I don't mean to imply that I think you fall into either of these categories, but those who do can print out one of these posts without getting clarification of your intent and the results could be the same. JMHO, FWIW. :)

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

~David~

May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.

[This message has been edited by blades67 (edited January 24, 2000).]

Daren Thompson
January 24, 2000, 08:37 PM
Blades in your reply you said like in the North Hollywood bank robbery. It has always been an interest to me how these crooks obtained full auto weapons. Did they get them south of the border or were they converted semi-auto's ? I have posted this on TFL a long time ago and nobody knew the answer. Do you have any info?

Thanks
Daren

cool cat
January 25, 2000, 12:55 AM
Thanks for the info, like I said it was just a what if thing. Also like I said I would never try such a thing. I know this sort of thing is taboo, but I feel I have a right to know about this sort of thing. The goverment has infringrd on our rights enough, knowledge is power they can never take this away. So this is the only reason I would right such a post. But thanks for all the info, I enjoy this place, I think it is one of the up and coming B.B. I paid far to much money to just start filing on things, I also enjoy my freadom.

fal308
January 25, 2000, 10:03 AM
Darren
IIRC they converted them themselves I believe.

Daren Thompson
January 25, 2000, 05:28 PM
Fal-If that was true why did the media not blast it all over the place? I know if I spent time I could convert my own guns. However full-auto is not as easy as most people believe. You do not just file that do-wicky and have an auto. Not to say these men could not have understood the functioning of their guns enough to do so, but I doubt it.

Later
Daren

James K
January 25, 2000, 11:12 PM
Unfortunately, there are some gun wise people who will make illegal conversions for money. Those are the guys I hope BATF nails to the wall. As far as maybe doing the conversions themselves, just because someone is a crook doesn't mean he's stupid.

There have also been reports that some Chinese selective fire AKs were brought in for sale to criminals. Supposedly, these were brought in by "gun runners." Maybe, but I can't see a totalitarian government not noticing that thousands of automatic weapons were missing. Perhaps the Chinese government was given the green light in return for favors elsewhere. When some customs agent who didn't get the word caught them, everyone blamed the "gun runners", the right wing conspiracy, and the NRA.

Jim

Danger Dave
January 26, 2000, 11:50 AM
Well, considering the availability of illegal things from cocaine to Cuban cigars and the sheer numbers of AK's produced, I can't imagine there not being a way to acquire full auto AK's were one so inclined. Stuff (including people) is smuggled into and out of this country like clockwork. At the very least, I'm sure some illegal parts have made/are making their way here. I mean, people smuggle stolen cars out of the country. If you know the right (or wrong) people and have the money, anything is available.

vhardy
January 26, 2000, 09:32 PM
Dave, I agree with you there. I subscribe to Shotgun News and it amazes me how one can legally buy full auto parts for several different weapons including AK's. Some companies won't sell them to you unless you are a class 2 manufacturer or a class 3 dealer or owner, but a lot of them will and they are not breaking any laws. One can also find literature on doing conversions as well as templates for proper drilling of holes, and can legally purchase such info.
Take care.

vhardy
January 26, 2000, 09:34 PM
Dave, I agree with you there. I subscribe to Shotgun News and it amazes me how one can legally buy full auto parts for several different weapons including AK's. Some companies won't sell them to you unless you are a class 2 manufacturer or a class 3 dealer or owner, but a lot of them will and they are not breaking any laws. One can also find literature on doing conversions as well as templates for proper drilling of holes, and can legally purchase such info.
Take care.

blades67
January 27, 2000, 03:18 PM
The two rifles used in the North Hollywood bank robbery were
1.) Semi-auto HK 91 which was shot through the receiver above the trigger pack and continued to function until the magazine was empty.
2.) Chinese copy of an AKM (commonly but incorrectly called the AK47), illegally modified to fire fully automatic and loaded with AP ammunition.

There were other rifles and handguns in the trunk of their car that were not used.

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

~David~

May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.

Daren Thompson
January 27, 2000, 07:41 PM
Hey Blades how did you find that out? I figured if it was an illegal conversion the media would have blasted it all over news, driving another nail into the coffin. How exactly, if you have that info, did they do it? What I mean is was it a professional job or was it done with string and bubble gum? :)

Later
Daren

ctdonath
January 27, 2000, 09:49 PM
Obligitory legal observation:

Such a modification is a felony, punishable by 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

blades67
January 29, 2000, 01:35 AM
I first saw the weapons on the news reports when it was happening and was fairly positive of the identification. I also talked to a friend (currently a Firefighter in Arizona, but formally LAPD) who had spoken with LAPD friends about the robbery and firefight. He told me that A&E was filming a documentary piece that would show both rifles.
When I watched the A&E piece, they only show the HK 91, but they fired the Chinese AKM! Some of the officers that were shot were interviewed as well.

------------------
Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat!

~David~

May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.