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Clanky
February 4, 2005, 09:40 PM
Thought this may be interesting. I don't know what they were using, but it just illustrates how much an animal can take and keep on coming.

Link takes you to website with clip. All legit.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/huntlion.html

HankL
February 4, 2005, 09:43 PM
It's an old clip but it does illustrate several points. :eek:

MCIWS
February 4, 2005, 09:57 PM
I was taught that you don't shoot it unless you are going to use it for food. This makes me sick.

MrFreeze
February 4, 2005, 10:25 PM
IBTL :D

Travis

PsychoSword
February 4, 2005, 11:29 PM
Maybe they had lion steaks later? :)

I agree though that these hunters (and I use that term loosely) are dorks.

Probably got too much time and money.

CarlosDJackal
February 4, 2005, 11:34 PM
It's an old clip. But even so, I root for the Lion everytime. That sucker had more heart than all of those so-called "hunters" combined. :mad:

Handy
February 5, 2005, 03:21 AM
Who are we rooting for?


I'm kinda with the lions on this one.

yorec
February 5, 2005, 12:56 PM
The morality of shooting trophy game in a large pen aside - what I found interesting was the comments at the bottom of the page... Looked like a buncha teenaged anti-hunters. :(

Not people you could go and debate with, obviously. But that is the sort of uneducated, unwashed peer preasure that is waiting out there for our kids. Great.

FirstFreedom
February 5, 2005, 06:15 PM
I'm having the darndest time being able to tell from that video whether or not they ate the lion later. :confused:

TPAW
February 5, 2005, 09:55 PM
Too bad the lion couldn't shoot back. I hope it lived to get another swipe at the incompitent hunters. What a pathetic display of ignorance!
With a little luck, the so called "HUNTERS" fell into a lions den on the way home! Ahhh..relief!
A half dozen or so idiots we don't have to worry about....Go lion!

Japle
February 6, 2005, 05:20 PM
It's hard to tell, but the lion may have been a cattle killer and the lion-missers may have been after him for non-sporting reasons.

John
Cape Canaveral

Double Naught Spy
February 6, 2005, 06:12 PM
It is indeed an old clip and Clanky got his facts wrong. The lion did not attack the hunters. The hunters attacked the lion and he simply mounted a counter assault.

I am not big on trophy hunting and this makes me laugh why I hear the hunter cry out. Nothing like a lot of big boys out doing macho crap with no common sense and no ability to properly use the firepower available to them. Did you count and/or see all the missed shots?

thebucket
February 6, 2005, 07:52 PM
I've never seen that clip before. I was impressed with how quickly the lion closed the distance. I guess if you're going to shoot a lion you'd better kill it with the first shot.

BillCA
February 6, 2005, 11:44 PM
The morality of shooting trophy game in a large pen aside...

Er, I have the full clip on disk (not this short version) and I'm hard pressed to find a "pen" of some kind as was mentioned here and on the weenie kiddy board. Can anyone clearly point out fencing to me? It appears this was taken in S. Africa and not some "safari park" here in the states.

This unimpressive hunter made a mistake (and almost learned it the hardest way) in not taking a 2nd, follow up shot on a wounded, dangerous game animal a.s.a.p. The clip shows that hunting dangerous animals in Africa is certainly not a sure thing. I don't know what caliber Bwana was using but I suspect it wasn't any bigger that a .375 H&H which is pretty minimal for Lion. The fact that he was using "shooting sticks" tells me he didn't have confidence in his abilities (and may not have known how to properly use a sling or shoot offhand). There is a reason many hunters favored the .416 Rigby for African hunting!

Rules for hunting in Africa:

In Africa, everything bites! Animals, insects even the plants!
You are not at the top of the food chain.
Stupidity is a capital crime. But carelessness, ignorance and negligence are just as bad.
The hunt is not an equal contest and a rifle does not automatically tip the scales in your favor.
If you take your shot and the animal does exactly what you expect, something is wrong!
The only thing worse than hearing a lion up close is not hearing a lion up close!
In Africa, mother nature is a bitch!
All hunters know that Murphy was an optimist.
When hunting in daytime, the wind will shift at the worst possible time. (See also #7).
When hunting at night the moon will be obscured by clouds at the worst possible moment. (See also #8).

I'll also say that I'm pretty offended by some of the comments made on this board with regard to the hunting clip. Some of these were about as "enlightened" as those made by the "uneducated, unwashed" kids on the other board. Hunters are not magically made by reading books and range practice. They learn by doing and this may have been Bwana's first attempt at big game.

Before painting hunters with a broad brush as immoral, ignorant, cowardly dorks, remember there's a thread going around about "weird things seen on the range" which could paint you as a stupid, reckless ignorant, retarded bozo cowboy with the same brush.

Like some of you, I'm not into trophy hunting. But I see no need to slander and bash those who are trophy hunters except for specific acts that go against the tenents of sports hunting (i.e. like using a 20 round magazine).

Remember, there are those who think anyone who keeps a firearm for use against another living creature, especially against a human being, is "sick". There are those who think simply owning a firearm is "sick" because it implies killing.

In closing let me leave you with these words;


Think before you speak damnit!


Flames privately please.

yorec
February 7, 2005, 05:15 AM
The pen issue - I was going off of comments made by others and my terrible vision of the download (my computer doesn't work well at all with video and all I get are stop motion slices wich are invariably fuzzy and hard to see detail in...) I saw what looked to be a fence behind the lion in the first few sections and, coupled with other comments by our readers, took this to be a "penned hunt."

If it was not, and I believe you that it wasn't - accept my apologies for the comment and know that I agree with ya wholeheartedly on the other points, BillCA. The comments by the teenager anti's on the other board were understandable as those of mislead, uneducated punks who were trying to sound big...

What's the excuse of our fellow gun owners (and hunters) here? Most sound pretty anti hunting to me - which I originally marked down to a dislike of "penned hunts." If it wasn't such a hunt, but fair chase as BillCA points out - what's yer problem? Is it something to applaude whan a hunter makes a mistake, misses, and is nearly killed?

Make the game a whitetail and the comments on this board do sound about like those of the unwashed loudmouths in the comment section over there... :eek:

FirstFreedom
February 7, 2005, 05:36 PM
Well said, BillCA - thank you!

Thom Rushing
February 7, 2005, 08:40 PM
Wow the posts on that forum are ridiculous. "gun nuts" huh? I have never seen the kind of violent posts they have in this anti hunter forum at the firing line. We are the nuts? Some of these guys are sick in the head talking about shooting hunters and torturing other humans to prove that hunting is wrong.
INSANE
Thom

MCIWS
February 7, 2005, 09:50 PM
Wow!
Is all this about my comment earlier? I don't want to sound self-centered, but it sure seems like it. I loved hunting when I was younger. In fact, I miss it a great deal. I just wish I had the time and money to continue. Though, if I had a great deal of money, I would not hunt lions in Africa. Not because of fear (although it would be scary), but because of the fact that I don't think a lion should be hunted. If that is your thing than great, go for it. Not me. Don't force someone to respect your decision about it. I am just a guy who doesn’t like to see a lion, or any animal, killed purely for sport.

FirstFreedom
February 7, 2005, 10:14 PM
killed purely for sport.

Did you read my post above? I'll reiterate it here:

I'm having the darndest time being able to tell from that video whether or not they ate the lion later.

Can you?

MCIWS
February 7, 2005, 10:20 PM
FirstFreedom,
Of course I cannot tell. I am only speculating. If, in fact, this lion was some sort of pest, i.e.: cattle killer, or whatever, than I see no problem with exterminating it. It just seemed to me that these men wanted to film a sport hunt in Africa. Purely speculation. If I am wrong, well so be it. I am afraid I turned this into something that it wasn’t.

MCIWS
February 7, 2005, 10:23 PM
Also, if they did eat it. Great. I wonder what lion sausage tastes like.

LAK
February 11, 2005, 06:00 AM
I am not against sport hunters on any moral grounds per se. Varmint shooting is very well accepted in this country, and big cats can become problem animals without necessarily becoming man-eaters, as can elephants in places like Africa etc where they are found. Much like deer that do crop damage and predators killing livestock here.

This clip highlights quite well the speed with which big cats can cover ground from a standing start - and how hard they are to stop when they get going. While it is clearly evident the lion had been significantly hit (note the awkward takeoff and landing amongst the hunters), it still had plenty of steam there when it took off again, could have easily have killed one or more of them at that stage. They were all very fortunate.

This appears to be a PH with a client. Note the staying hand when the hunter first raises the rifle to shoot. This probably because the lion was facing them, and a lion will often charge in the direction it is facing when hit. Once the lion is wounded the whole party follows it up as it appears to be in the open. When it charges it will have been an extremely difficult target, and some misses could be expected even from people that are normally excellent gameshots.

Before someone mentions "buckshot" loads in shotguns for following up wounded, or defense against, large predatory animals they should watch footage like this more often.

GLM
February 12, 2005, 05:25 AM
The people cheering for the lion and making judgments about the hunter's morals based upon this very short clip are foolish. It is very common for the meat from "trophy" hunts in Africa (and other countries) to be given to the families of the local trackers or to the tribes on whose land the animal was killed. This includes lion meat. I have never eaten any myself, but I hear it can be tasty so long as it is cooked slowly. Even if the animal wasn't eaten, the money generated from these hunts goes a long way toward funding habitat loss and species protection programs. Also, without the money generated by these "sickening" hunts, the local economies would suffer greatly.

Double Naught Spy
February 12, 2005, 10:30 PM
I am hugely amazed at the speculation here on both sides. What I really found funny was the speculation that the lion was some sort of pest animal that had been causing problems and therefore needed to be dispatched. That may or may not be the case and the footage would give no indication either way. However, the fact that the primary shooter was being given instruction on specifically what to do and not to do gives me the impression that this was a guided hunt, a safari sport hunt.

If these folks were out to dispatch a troublesome animal for the benefit of the local community, I would be inclined to believe they all would have attempted to dispatch the animal as quickly as possible. While they might have let one person take the first shot, once the animal got up, the other people in the group would have shot the animal right then. They didn't. This was apparently some sort of safari and the only reason why anyone else in the party was going to shoot was when the animal posed a threat to the hunters themselves...and then you can see just how effective their fire was once they realized they were in danger.

As LAK noted, it would not be unexpected for even skilled hunters to miss a charging animal. Why? Simple. Most skilled hunters do not attempt to shoot animals moving at high speeds or have to deal with the sense of danger coming from the fact that the speeding lion is charging the the hunters. I know it is called "hunting," but as with the first shot taken, that sort of hunting is nothing but animal sniping. As with sniping, most snipers prefer to shoot at stationary or slow moving targets when at all possible.

What surprised me about the footage is that while there were several people with rifles in the hunting party and several folks opened up when the animal charged, nobody seemed to have anything faster than a bolt action gun to shoot. Given the number of hunters with guns, there were not very many shots fired as the lion charged. At least one guy can be seen trying to work the action on his gun, apparently after having fired(?), as the lion passes through the group and downs the one hunter.

FrankDrebin
February 12, 2005, 11:08 PM
I hate cats...they **** all over the house.....I say kill em all and replace them with dogs....

I have never eaten any myself, but I hear it can be tasty so long as it is cooked slowly.

It tastes like the same kind of cat you get with your General Tsao's Chicken.....

HankL
February 13, 2005, 09:37 AM
The major point that I gathered from the clip was that once the cat got in the wire muzzle control went south and the entire thing turned into a furball.
I am really suprised that one of the hunters didn't get shot.

pittspilot
February 21, 2005, 11:38 AM
I believe this has been covered before. My understanding was:

1) This was a pest animal that was too close to residents and animals. Supposedly an elderly male that had taken to killing domestic animals.

2) Apparently the first shot was perfect. However, the Lion didn't think so. From what I understand this is not uncommon.

3) The guide saved everyone with that last shot before the lion made it to them. As was noted, that animal covered a serious amount of territory at a fantastic pace. If you watch the guide, he squats to take the only shot he knows he is going to get. I have never had the opportunity to take one shot that I knew positively absolutely had to count, and had a very short period within which to take, but if I did, I hope I did as well as this guy did. He hit the Lion right on the chin, and that was probably why that Lion did not take "Bwana" apart.

4) I would not really hold the whooping it up that those guys did against them. I would assume that having seen a lion that close and personal that had my blood on its mind, and having survived the encounter intact, I might celebrate a tad.

sdkidaho
February 22, 2005, 03:52 PM
BillCA - well said.

I am really suprised that one of the hunters didn't get shot.

And that statement is no joke. It's amazing they didn't kill each other.

dasmi
February 22, 2005, 04:27 PM
Those idiots got of lucky I'd say.

BillCA
February 22, 2005, 11:56 PM
What surprised me about the footage is that while there were several people with rifles in the hunting party and several folks opened up when the animal charged, nobody seemed to have anything faster than a bolt action gun to shoot.

Perhaps it's the fact that in many countries, including S.Africa, it's illegal to use semi-automatic rifle to hunt with. Add to that, there are few semi-autos you can carry and have the firepower of a good .375 H&H or a .458 Weatherby Magnum. (Sure, just try to carry that Barrett afield all day!) And if this was a sport hunt, where's the sport in shooting your lion 3, 5 or 10 times?

I wonder what lion sausage tastes like.
Probably not as good as spotted owl! :rolleyes: :D

220swifter
February 23, 2005, 11:12 AM
Not to stir the pot more, but..... The story I have heard is that is was in fact a canned hunt. You can clearly see the fence in the back ground.(I think that cat could have jumped it.) The hunter is a dentist out of Corpus Christi, Texas. No way to know for sure, but the story down there is not too flattering.

artsmom
February 24, 2005, 12:16 AM
Hmmm, don't kill it unless you are going to eat it. What does a mouse taste like fresh out of the trap, and how many mosquitoes does it take for even a light snack?

There is nothing wrong with shooting a lion, fair chase or otherwise. I can't say I would be even remotely interested in hunting where there are fences, whether it is five acres or five square miles, of 5,000 square miles, since it is a psychological thing.

I won't condemn others, as then we establish a pecking order, where ultimately anyone who doesn't kill the animal with a bow fashioned with obsidian tools they flaked themselves and grill it on a fire they started with the bow method is no true hunter.

LAK
February 24, 2005, 06:12 AM
All this talk about fences - and the one in question - reminds me of that infamous and widely published photograph that "proved" the Serbs were operating "concentration camps" in Yugoslavia. Except that the photo was actually taken by a photographer standing "inside" the alleged enclosure, with some of the locals (one of whom was a skinny chap to begin with) standing on the outside of the wire. Of course the truth was never acknowledged by the right people.

Now it takes more than your average cattle fence to actually contain a lion.

Has it occurred to anyone that whether or not the lion is "inside" or "outside" some fenceline - it may the fenceline of a farm, or other private dwelling, and that the lion's presence there may not be welcome, "sporting" or not?