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View Full Version : First MG and asking for advice...


RFly2Dive
January 20, 2005, 06:14 PM
I really have 2 questons re M16. First from what I have gathered so far is that there is a significant difference between guns that are 'registered receiver' models vs those that are conversions with auto sear that is registered. I believe that repairs can be done to both but if the auto sear in a registered auto sear gun goes belly up then that MG can not be repaired without purchasing a replacement pre-86 registered auto sear....This would/could be a costly proposition...Is this understanding correct and what has been your experience with Frankford Arsenal registered receivers...That is the model I am looking at seriously....Other than the horse stamp on the receiver being missing is it a good choice...condition is described as 98%.

Second, if someone does have a legally transferred and all the correct paperwork/stamp for a M16 registered receiver can you then have spare parts in your possesion needed to repair this lower should something break...?? I know that possession of these parts and possession of an AR 15 constitute owning an illegal unregistered MG and that is not anything I am interested in doing. 250K fine and 10 years in the pokey are not my style. I just do not want to purchase the MG and then keep any eye out to obtain repair parts only to find out I broke the law without intending to do so. FWIW I also have no intention of buying ANY parts before the BATF paperwork is approved and in my possession...

Thanks for your thoughts.

shaggy
January 20, 2005, 06:28 PM
There are actually three main types of registered M16 conversions;

1.) DIAS - drop in autosear. Very sturdy little unit, I own several. It replicates the function of the regular autosear in an AR15 receiver. if the sear is broken, you can repair it, but you cannot replace it. You cannot replace ANY registered MG - the best you can do with them is repair. The DIAS uses M16 parts in your AR15 and will give you safe-semi-full.

2.) Lightning link. The link is a small flat loop of metal that acts as an auto-disconnector. As the action closes, it pulls on the disconnector in your AR15 and produces another shot. I just bought one of these as an investment. They work, but the trip levers tend to bend and break. Not to worry though, the lever is a $10 part and because it is not a serialized part, you can replace it and have spares on hand. You use AR15 parts in the receiver and get full auto only (no semi function unless you also add a specially designed parts kit to go with it).

3.) Registered receiver. Just like a factory MG, and in the case of Colt M16's they are factory MGs. Again, if it breaks you can have the receiver repaired, but you cannot get it replaced. Olympic Arms has replaced some M16 receivers which they made, but there is a lot of speculation this is not entirely legal and sanctioned by BATF.

There are also hybrids of those three, but they are rare. A Frankfort Ars. is a good gun. I thnk they were cast receivers, not forged but I may be wrong. I would not hesitate to buy a Frankfort. Personally though, I prefer the sears. You can shoot the living snot out of them and everything in the gun is replaceable (except the sear). For about $100 you can get a new AR15 receiver and drop your sear in - just like a brand new machinegun. he main drawback is timing. DIAS guns must be timed with each change of upper and/or lower receiver. Additionally, when/if you remove the sear from the gun, ALL the M16 fire control parts must leave to gun also, as well as any barrel less than 16" while the sear is not installed.

For some pics of the sear types, try www.quarterbore.com

RFly2Dive
January 20, 2005, 07:27 PM
that is what I was basically asking...ie...can't you just 'shoot the living snot' out of a registered receiver and replace all the internal parts with new unregistered parts (including the auto sear) since it is the receiver that is registered????? and is this not an advantage when considering whether or not to purchase a DIAS or registered receiver??? Thanks!!

shaggy
January 20, 2005, 07:53 PM
that is what I was basically asking...ie...can't you just 'shoot the living snot' out of a registered receiver and replace all the internal parts with new unregistered parts (including the auto sear) since it is the receiver that is registered?????

You bet - absolutely! But if you dent, ding, scratch, or damage the receiver (in a reg. rec. gun), you'll need to get it repaired and/or refinished. Because the receiver is the registered part, all can be replaced except the receiver. With a sear gun, you can beat the crap out of the weapon. If the receiver gets damaged, just go buy a new one for about $100. True, the SEAR (if a registered DIAS or Link) cannot be replaced, but those parts are easier to repair than a receiver. An AR15/M16 receiver is a complex piece of machining work, and made of aluminum its a bit hard to find someone who can do good work on aluminum (don't worry, there's a few good class 3 guys who do). A DIAS or Link however is a very simple piece to fix - the tolerances vary widely and it doesn't have to be perfect. Additionally many of them are made of steel, not aluminum. Finally both the DIAS and the Link fit inside the receiver - protected by the walls of the receiver.

too many choices!?
January 21, 2005, 11:53 PM
100 bucks a month until paid for(plus my tax returns can you tell I am desperate?)? :).pleeeeaaaassseeee!!! :)

Hkmp5sd
January 22, 2005, 12:38 AM
I have the opposite opinion about which to buy. I'd much rather (and do) have a registered receiver instead of the DIAS/LL/registered sear. IMO, it is very unlikely you will destroy the receiver and replacing broken and worn out parts is much easier.

As for the parts question, if you own a registered M16 and also own an AR-15, ATF stronglyadvises you have no spare parts for the M16. They also claim you can own one <16" upper for your M16, but two or more is a no-no.

But oddly enough, if you have a friend or relative that does not own an AR-15, they can have at their house all of the spare parts and short barreled uppers they want. :)

shaggy
January 22, 2005, 02:16 AM
100 bucks a month until paid for(plus my tax returns can you tell I am desperate?)? .pleeeeaaaassseeee!!!

Well letsee here...

$100/month ...add in interest...drop out some for tax return checks...

You could have it paid off in about 12 to 14 years. Maybe less. :D

Seriously, if you can get a low interest loan its not a bad idea. As long as the interest rate on the loan is well below the average annual rate of appreciation on the NFA piece over the term of the loan, you'd be way ahead of the game.

FWIW, I'm not selling yet (gotta find another beltfed to spend it on first), but if you're either near the eastern PA area and have a place to shoot, or if you go to Bulletfest in Ohio, I'd be happy to share my toys.

too many choices!?
January 22, 2005, 10:17 AM
I am in Texas which of course allows NFA weapons ( :p sorry guys that don't) but I am a long way off from ever owning one :( . Especially since I want an m16 of some sort....If I ever get it NFA fun in calibers from 22lr, 9mm, 223,upto possibly .308 all in one package is quite an appealing idea..... :D
Below a pistol and up to a Battle riflle cartridge off one platform....mind blowing....Sub gun to battle riffle and back again with the push of a button(and quick swap of parts) what a dream.....
PS Shaggy what calibers do you shoot your 16s in? If you don't mind me asking :)

Hkmp5sd
January 22, 2005, 11:52 AM
Seriously, if you can get a low interest loan its not a bad idea.
I actually tried that one time. The bank loan officer had to chase her eyeballs across the floor after reading the application. After learning about machineguns and the NFA, they approved the loan. They decided that the machinegun itself could not be used as collateral for the loan, so they wouldn't give me a good interest rate. I turned the loan down and paid cash for the MG.

shaggy
January 22, 2005, 05:39 PM
I shoot my M16's mostly in 5.56. I had a Colt 7.62x39 upper and some 75rd drums, but I got it in a trade and the guy who I got it from neglected to tell me that the barrel was rusted to crap (I sold everything salvagable off as parts and vowed to never get another 7.62 upper).

I also had a couple 9mm kits (one Olympic 9mm, two Colt 635 (11.5") clones, and one Colt 633 DOE upper). I like M16's in 9mm, but I also sold all of those off thinking 5.56 was a better choice with a little more 'punch'. I recently bought a 9mm pistol/SMG supressor (an AAC Phantom) so I've been rethinking my decision on the 9mm's and may get one on which I can use the supressor.

Finally, I had a Ciener .22 kit for the M16 which worked pretty well, but I sold that off last summer, along with several of my full autos to fund another beltfed gun. Fortunately it looks like Lakeside Guns will be releasing their beltfed .22 upper for the AR15/M16 later this year and I'll definitely be getting one or two.

All in all, , I think just about any of those caliber conversions can work well for an M16. Some, like the Ciener kit, require a little tinkering to be reliable, but if caliber versatility is your cup of tea, the M16 is king. An HK sear is a good alternative, being able to be run in .22, 9mm, 5.56, and 308, but the HK host guns are expensive, and even the clones are well above AR15 prices.

If you can't afford an M16 right away, consider getting a less expensive MG like a Powder Springs Mac-10 or a Ruger ACC556. Granted, they don't have the versatility of an M16, but they're still a damn good first full auto, and can be traded or sold later to help fund an M16. In my circle of class 3 friends, we always say there is almost nothing that keeps pace with transferable MG prices, except other transferable MG prices. If you get another MG instead, at least the money you have into it will continue to appreciate at approximately the same rate as an M16.

RFly2Dive
February 2, 2005, 11:08 PM
Well for what it's worth I have started the process toward owning my first MG...Thanks to all who shared their thoughts. I decided on a Colt M16--not a converted AR15...mainly because I believe that an original Colt M16 will out pace the competition in appreciation. I have already ordered a Ciener .22 cal. conversion kit and extra 2 mags. The guy I am purchasing the M16 from has a Ruger ACC556 that he is selling at a reasonable price. If interested email me at rfly2dive@earthlink.net and I will forward your email address to him. He is in Pa. and I believe he wanted around $5000.00 or BO. He is in the process of buying a house. He also said if anything ever happened to the Ruger that it could be just sent back to the Ruger plant for repair as it has a 'lifetime guarantee.' Not sure that is true...someone here will know I am sure.
Well...as Confucius said...'one travels no faster with impatience as his companion.' so now I will just hury up and slow down for the first form 4 to go through....then I'll just pay another $200.00 and wait for the second one....then I will get to hold it for good...lololo
Thanks again
Ralph

PMDW
February 3, 2005, 12:01 AM
He also said if anything ever happened to the Ruger that it could be just sent back to the Ruger plant for repair as it has a 'lifetime guarantee.' Not sure that is true...someone here will know I am sure.

Yep. True.

Hawainpanda
June 23, 2005, 05:53 PM
wait, I thought ar15 were only semi auto, so why can't you have one with an m16 and just use ar15 for parts, or am i missing something?

Hkmp5sd
June 23, 2005, 08:35 PM
You can have both an AR-15 and an M16. The thing you cannot have is spare M16 parts for your M16 while you own an AR-15. The government has decided that if you have M16 parts and an AR-15, you are in possession of an unregistered machinegun. It doesn't matter the parts are for your M16 nor that you haven't installed them in the AR-15. Just having them is enough to get arrested.

Hawainpanda
June 23, 2005, 10:58 PM
OH, ok, I get it,thanks for the explenation