Affordable Over / Under?

[Spencer]

I want to buy an over / under 12-gauge for birds, but the prices blow me away. At the very least, I want a good name gun that I can easily change chokes (internal choke tubes would be good). It would also be nice to have a model that will allow me to choose – on the fly – which barrel shoots first.

I looked at a Spartan, which is an inexpensive gun made by a name brand (Remington or something), but it was anything but smooth.

I’m happy to look in the used market, but the prices are still really out there. Anybody have any ideas of what to keep an eye out for?

[Picher]

IMHO - In order of desirability highest to lowest, all having screw-in chokes:

Winchester 101 (or newer models)
Browning Citori (Similar in quality or better than the Win, but probably more expensive)
SKB
Weatherby Orion, or Olympian
Ruger Red Label
Charles Daly

(Other people will probably add to or question these choices.)

You probably can't afford a Beretta or some other really expensive guns, but I'd stay away from most of the off-brand spanish, brazilian, Russian and Italian guns, etc.

[OBIWAN]

"but I'd stay away from most of the off-brand spanish, brazilian, Russian and Italian guns, etc"

Just curious, but why???

[BLKLABMAN]

I would sugest spending the extra $$$ and getting a Quality O/U such as the Beretta 686.
New Field grade Onyx's can be found for as little as $1,300.
You can also find the 686 Whitewing for around $900 now.

New Citori's on the low end run around $1,300 also. The Cynergy Field is around $1,500.
Used ones can be found for around $750

I would suggest staying away from the Ruger Red Label. It is known for trigger problems, firing both barrels, and a severe tube rebound.

Hope this helps.

[K80Geoff]

Money for a Quality O/U is well spent

Browning Citori, Beretta 686/687, SKB can often be found used for reasonable prices. Stick with known guns. Ruger has a following but has its problems. Remington....oh well never mind :) (unless you can find an old model 32)

[Picher]

Obiwan: The reason to "stay away from lesser-known of the off-brand Spanish, Brazilian, Russian and Italian guns, etc." is because some have soft metal that wears prematurely, parts that break and difficult to find, ribs that may pop off the barrel.

Sometimes a person finds a great gun in that mix, but more often than not, it's one that presents problems, either when using it, or when trying to sell it.

John

[Lawyer Daggit]

With respects to some entries, there is nothing'soft' about the metallurgy on Russian guns, most are in fact considerably over engineered.

Probs with 'soft metal' on Spanish guns is largely a 'Saturday night special' type myth. Spain has been making shotguns for hundreds of years, and while a few cheapies may have been produced in the post war years, most are of good quality.

[chris in va]

FWIW, I had the chance to shoot a Weatherby Orion (base model) and it shot VERY nicely. Very light too. He paid about $970 new for it.

When I was looking for my 20ga, many of the pawn shops and local gun stores had plenty of over/unders at reasonable prices. If I get into skeet more, that'll be where I head.

[guntotin_fool]

A good side by side is a joy. I do not know about the Ruger OU being a service queen., I have never seen one not work out for the owners, usuallly had a lot less visits to the shop than a citori. Most of the Beretta's I have seen have been good too.

I have shooter grade belgian superposed RKLT that i paid 800 for and spend another 200 having tubes put into it and worth every dime of it.

The biggest problem with the off brands from spain, russia. and else where is that hey are made in small shops to private contracts with little to no standardizations. This is not to say that AYA, Arrieta, Grulla, and Garbi do not make wonderful shotguns. But for the most part these fine doubles would not be in the affordable class unles you consider mercedes benz affordable. But if you break one of the $500 doubles from russia or spaing you got a wall hanger.

[Picher]

I think that the best O/U values are in the used gun market and most of my prior comments are geared to that premise, though I may not have noted that adequately.

A used Winchester, SKB, Weatherby, etc. may be much lower in cost than a new gun of lower quality. SKB is probably the best of the most overlooked shotguns out there. They have tremendous strength and shoot very well.

A friend had a 20 SKB O/U that was a real dream. It shot much better for me than my two Weatherbys.

John

[PJR]

The biggest problem with the off brands from spain, russia. and else where is that hey are made in small shops to private contracts with little to no standardizations.
In the case of Spain that may have been true in the 50's and 60's but it's not the case now. Armas Lanber is a substantial manufacturing operation and makes a reasonable low priced o/u. They aren't that common in North America but are seen frequently on the clay fields in the UK.

I'd still however endorse the advice that says a good used Beretta or Browning is the best purchase. I've owned several or each and haven't lost money on any of them.

A friend had a 20 SKB O/U that was a real dream. It shot much better for me than my two Weatherby's.
That is odd given that SKB makes the Weatherby guns. You'd think they would shoot the same. :confused:

[Picher]

Weatherbys have been made by Miroku (sp?), which made Winchester 101s, then they were made in Italy, perhaps they're made by SKB now. The guns changed considerably when the change was made from Miroku to Italy, perhaps they now resemble the SKBs.

SKBs were sold under the Ithaca name for several years in the sixties/seventies and those guns shouldn't be overlooked either.

John

[P102]

Not familiar with the problems with the Ruger, I have recommended it in the past for field use because of the auto safety.

Stay with name brand, Win., Browning, SKS, Weatherby, etc...although my experience has Win. and Weatherby with a little more recoil. Remington 3200's (32 was made by Krieghoff after they bought the 3200 patent, I believe) are tougher to find and will not have screw in's unless someone already added them. Remington also came out w/ a more recent model O/U, the Peerless, that is a very good gun but was never really accepted by the shooting public, you may be able to find one at a low price.

The inexpensive models from overseas usually do not balance well, fit and finish is questionable (but probably fine for field use) but most of all, most have much more recoil than name brand guns.

Shotgun News is a good place to look for a used gun.

[HSMITH]

I have a Ruger Red Label, miserable POS is still working just perfectly at a conservative 80K rounds downrange. They must have forgot to tell mine to break at XXXX rounds when they made it.

I have seen several other Red Labels make it well past 50K rounds without issue also.

The most problematic guns I have seen have been Berettas, closely followed by Browing Citoris. The Beretta might be worth it though, slim and trim through the action and very nice in hand......

[cntryboy1289]

BSA makes a very reasonable O/U and it handles very well. I have a buddy who sells them for around $350. These guns have been very pleasing to those of us who have shot them. I always wanted to buy a Red Label or such and was saving to buy one when he had to show me this one. It has the screw in chokes and handles very well so I took it out and shot a round with it. I bought it that day. You can pay more and get more or you can sometimes pay less and still get more if you look carefully.

[m88tow]

Either the Weatherby or Browning, they are both my first choices and the lower end models can be had at reasonable price for there quality and craftmanship.

[Trentonator]

FWIW, I bought a Verona 20 ga o/u and it cost me about $ 700 at Dick's Sporting goods (Model LX 505). It has a great light feel (6.1 lbs), seems very well put together, and shoots great. Switchable barrel selector and safety on the tang, screw in choke tubes, and a very pretty real wood stock and engraved receiver with gold inlaid pheasant and quail. It comes with a hi-viz sight and 3 more chokes tubes. I have used it on quail (very effective), and at the trap range (hit more clays than I ever have). It also takes 3" shells and is a cinch to break down.

Even though they are made in Italy, Verona has a very good customer service network. If you do a search, Verona gets positive reviews throughout this site. I love Brownings too (I own several), but I would put this gun right up there and you cannot beat the price.

Trent
Browning A-5 12 ga semi auto
Browning Citori 12 ga o/u
Verona LX 505 20 ga o/u
Rem 870 Mag Exp 12 ga pump
Glock G 22 .40 cal

[RUT]

>>BSA makes a very reasonable O/U<<

Actually made by Huglu in Turkey.

[tokarevman]

I also have a Ruger Red Label, I bought it a couple of years ago for a replacment for my Remington 1100 "that i still love" but as far as the Ruger Red Label goes it has preformend flawlessly, i do not hunt but shoot sporting clays and skeet and i know last year i put at leat 10 cases of shells through it if not more and never a problem, and i picked it up used but NIB for 800 bucks. One thing i did do, is disingadge the auto safty but that is the only work i have done to the gun. So i guess Ruger forgot to make mine break as well.

[38splfan]

Don't overlook used guns as a possibility.

At the range I use, I see about one or two of these a month. Newbie gets pulled in by fancy guns, tries once. Decides he/she either doesn't like, wants a lighter caliber, or does not have the time/inclination. This usually means guns are bought, fired a few rounds, and sold off. Once saw a mid-grade Browning (think it was Citori) go for $850, with only 100 rounds through it.

Might want to check out the skeet/trap clubs in your area.

Here is the add for the last one:

12ga. Browning Citori over/under, full set interchangeable chokes, fitted wood case, Silencio electronic muffs, Bob Allen vest, and misc. small shooting gear. $800 takes all.

[kehrby]

I too add my vote for the Red Label. I think it is the most under rated gun out there for the money! I shoot it a lot at sporting clays and not a single glitch in three years!!!!! :D

[Spencer]

Great advice everyone - thanks.
38: Is that for real? From what I have seen, that is a smokin' deal. Did you get that ad from the shooting range, or from a source online?

[scotts_4x]

>>BSA makes a very reasonable O/U<<

Actually made by Huglu in Turkey.

Actually according to the magazine reveiws and the BSA website, they are made by fausti.

-Scott

[K80Geoff]

Just to set the Record straight on Remington O/Us', a subject I have considerable experience with BTW.

The Model 32 was produced by Remington up untill WW2. The rights to the design were sold to a group of shooters (Now owned by Hal DuPont). Krieghoff built guns to the 32 design, first calling the gun the B60 than the K32. The K32 morphed into the K80 produced today.

The Remington 3200 was introduced in the late 60's. A good solid gun that became expensive to produce. They never had choke tubes. They were discontinued by the 80's.

The Peerless, which was anything but, came out in the 90's, then became the Ideal, the 300 ideal and a few other names. I owned and shot a peerless for 3 years...don't waste your money on any of these guns. (Don't even try to call me on this, I know it is a POS.)

I notice the price of Rem 32's is steadily increasing. Only about 5000 were made.

I agree that Browning, Beretta and SKB are good choices on the used market.

If you find a Belgian Browning for $800, buy it! New Belgians go for about $8000 today.

[Boilermaker]

I think something that was overlooked is what do YOU consider affordable and what is your price range? I would consider an affordable O/U to be under $1000. But here are my experiences. First off, if you are just starting out go to a skeet, trap, sporting clays range take some ammo with you and ask around. Most of the time the people there are really nice and willing to share their opions and let you shoot a few through their gun(if you have your own ammo). Find a gun your comfortable with and that you like. I have also found ranges a good place to pick up used guns (especially after someone has had bad round, haha). Gun shows are another good place to find a deal, but you won't get to try it out.

Now to the guns that you should be able to find for under a $1000. Beretta 686 (actually any beretta, I love beretta and have nothing but good luck with them). Ruger Red Label, I do not own one but have shot one and they are good guns and the thousands of rounds I've seen guys put through them i've never seen a problem with them. A Browning Citori in good condition will be hard to come by for under $1000 but it is a good gun. I recently traded a Traditions O/U that was made by Fausti in Italy that I won in a raffle. It was an absolutely beautiful gun but didn't shoot worth sh*t. It retails for about $600-700 wouldn't recommend it at all. When I started looking for another O/U a few years ago I was recommended to Huglu so I went to look at one and no one at the gun shop could get it to open, since then all the one's I've seen are really tight.

You will get what you pay for though. Out of all the guns I've shot I've found out there's a reason some are more expensive. But to each their own find a gun that you shoot well cause if it doesn't shoot good your gonna hate it. Good O/U's are hard to come by for cheap if you find a company that makes a good one for a few hundred dollars let me know.

[K80Geoff]

The handling of O/U's is subjective. To a novice unfamiliar with O/U's a gun may look and shoot just fine. But as you shoot more you begin to gain a feel for the nuances of handling and function. Feel and balance and "handling" are gained with experience.

Shooting Skeet and being able to try different guns is the best education you can have. I recommend Skeet over Trap and Sporting because of the social nature of INFORMAL Skeet. Trap and Sporting tend to be more competitive and allow less socializing. Before you spend money on an O/U listen to other shooters and their experiences.

I once handed my 9+ pound O/U to a new shooter to try. He remarked how light the gun felt! He was shocked to find out it was 3 pounds heavier than the pump he was shooting. It just balanced better.

Don't get caught up with engraving, it adds nothing to the gun but $$$$. Some real dogs have nice engraving.

[tpdtom]

Let's not generalize too much and judge a particular maker by it's country of origin . I don't want to be too brand specific , but someone here told you to avoid Italian guns . I humbly suggest that the Italians , in general , are making the worlds BEST O/Us . In fact , the current level of style, features , and engineering in O/Us specifically may never be equalled again . They have hit a zenith , similar to SxSs from England between 1890 and 1940 . There is little to improve upon . That being said , of course not every gun coming out of Italy is a Rizzini , Bosis , or Fabbri . But there are bargains to be had .

I don't recommend any "CHEAP" O/Us . There may be some bargains out there but I'm not familiar with them . An aquaintance bought a Zoli about 20 years ago . Since then he has thousands and thousands of rounds downrange and in the field without a single problem . I can't endorse all Zoli's though .

I can tell you of a world class bargain in a quality made , well known O/U . It's not cheap or expensive . It's made by the worlds largest firearms manufacturer , and the worlds oldest manufacturer of any kind . That company is Beretta and the gun is the plain jane 686 . The wood is plain but it's walnut , and it's the same mechanically as their guns costing thousands more ! Get a 12 Ga. , 28 in. barrels , 3" chambers , with choke tubes and you are good to go . You can buy a more expensive O/U but not a better one . I don't recommend trying a cheaper brand . Save a little longer for quality . You should be able to find one used for under $1200 , maybe less . They have an "Essential" model for less but I'm not sure it's the same gun . Find out . You can buy a new one for $700 on www.gunsamerica.com Good Luck...Tom

[Boilermaker]

Glad you brought up Zoli there I forgot about it. My dad has one and he's had it for about 25 years. Its a very reliable gun, I wouldn't pick it up over a Beretta 686 any day of the week though or would my dad. Its a 20 ga. and also packs more kick than most of my 12 ga.'s Also wouldn't get rid of it any day of the week either.

[K80Geoff]

"Italians make the best O/U's"

Probably true across the full range of pricing, but the Japanese guns in the lower end of the price range are excellent guns. Miroku (Browning Citori) and SKB are fine guns in their price range, although I would opt for the Beretta 680 series.

[P102]

I stated Krieghoff bought the 3200 design, Geoff corrected me on that, thanks Geoff.....

The Rem. 32 design was taken to Krieghoff in the early 50's, the group of sportsmen doing this included Hal DuPont as Dupont Corp. bought 60% interest in Rem. in 1933.

Rem. 3200 was introduced in 1973 and stopped sometime in the early 80's.

Current Rem O/U is the 332, based on the 32 design. Mixed reports on it.