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Jan
January 9, 2005, 12:00 PM
well Why ?

jerryd
January 9, 2005, 12:09 PM
Kill what? Paper targets, animals, humans,? Read history books, man is still a predator! :eek:

Jan
January 9, 2005, 12:22 PM
i prefer paper targets.

Hkmp5sd
January 9, 2005, 02:57 PM
Supper.

Cowled_Wolfe
January 9, 2005, 03:19 PM
Food, control of predators, and self defense (if I ever have to).

Rojoe67
January 9, 2005, 03:27 PM
I have yet to get a live deer to get into my truck and ride home so I could have him for a nice meal. If I could get him or her to come home I bet it would be real hard to get the 4 legged fluffy 165 pounds of fun into the oven without a real battle. My God that created me put those sharp pointed teeth on each side of my upper mouth to help me eat meat. I love salads, tatters, and most green veggies, breads good too... but life without meat..... I would rather be on the wrong end of an M-203 with HE round at say.....250 meters..... Sorry I just love to be graphic......that is why I kill...... The normal average everyday hunter as I consider myself doesn't enjoy watching any living thing suffer........ I consider a very well placed shot with my 270 and a 130 grain Remington Core Lokt the way I can best make table fare. It also proves to be as humane way as I know. Sorry if I offended anyone :D

Picher
January 9, 2005, 05:31 PM
I shoot paper targets and clay targets too, but don't eat them. Hunting is more the challenge of finding and the food than it is the kill.

Where I hunt, deer populations are barely controlled by hunting. Overpopulation leads to starvation, predation, and excessive crop damage. Humane harvesting by hunters who kill quickly is one of the kindest methods of deer population control.

Just remember that without sport hunting to pay the bills, most game would not exist today. It would have been poached long ago. Hunters are the only ones who have footed the bill to preserve both game and non-game species.

Bottom line: If you don't buy a hunting license you don't help.

John

Double Naught Spy
January 9, 2005, 05:45 PM
While true that overpopulation leads to starvation, overpopulation is a self-correcting problem. Why it is that we think that we need to replace nature is beyond me. We are hardly good stewards of the environment. Maybe it is out of guilt that we believe we need to hunt down certain populations of animals that strive toward overpopulation, such as deer. We have taken away many of their natural predators, reducing their available foraging range, and basically collapsing populations into smaller and smaller areas such that overpopulation can happen unnaturally easy.

Of course the concern of overpopulation turns to mush when it becomes evident that we only try to protect certain species from overpopulation, particularly those associated with sport hunting. When was the last time the lemming hunters went into action, locust hunters, or mouse hunters (as in Australia with the huge mouse population explosions that happen ever several years).

Why kill? Simple. Animals get pissy when you try to cut off meat cuts when they are still alive.

MeekAndMild
January 9, 2005, 06:08 PM
Deer meat tastes good plus there is the irritation of having deer come into the yard to eat Mrs. Meek's flowers, plus a small measure of civic duty. If we don't kill off more deer they are going to keep breeding to the point where they will be hitting even more cars and more people are going to die.

Its us against them I tell you! Us against them! :(


A Poem for You

I hear the screams
of the asparagus.
Dying in the afternoon
it wails as its green blood
drips hissing on the hot sand.

Before it gasps its last breath
it
shudders
and
begs,

"Take the onion instead of me."

(copyright 2005 by the author, all rights reserved)

Long Path
January 9, 2005, 06:51 PM
Man is a predator. I am a man. Thus I predate.

Ozzieman
January 9, 2005, 07:14 PM
I have never to my knowledge killed another human being.
I am and so are you responsible for the deaths of many animals.
You eat meat I eat meat so animals must die for our stomachs.
It’s no different than people that hunt for food.
I hope to God that I never have to kill anyone, human that is. But if someone puts my life in danger or my wife’s I will kill them with out a thought, I might have feelings afterward but that’s life.
If you don’t like that answer then go and live in a state like New York with Hillary Clinton, she will get you want you want.

Rojoe67
January 9, 2005, 08:04 PM
I guess I forgot a few things too........

I do love fine leather products....... My bill fold, my footwear, the belt that holds my holster (also leather) and pants up, shall I go on..? Cows and other animals made these available to the consumer. Yep someone - somewhere killed these animals too..... Am I getting through yet?

further more those paper targets were once minding their own business growing and making the woods a happy place for wildlife to live..... so I guess killing paper targets is murder too... :D

Cowled_Wolfe
January 9, 2005, 08:32 PM
Leather's a great point too... My jacket's from the 70s... Genuine Kangaroo.

joab
January 9, 2005, 08:34 PM
Why do you pay others to do your killing for you

Why do you start two threads on the same topic 5 minutes apart from each other

HunterTRW
January 9, 2005, 08:40 PM
Yours is a question with which all hunters grapple at some time or other. In my opinion the best answer to it was contained in an article titled I Am a Hunter by the late author, Ed Zern, and which first appeared in Audubon magazine in 1972. More recently it was included in a collection of his works titled Hunting and Fishing From "A" to Zern (ISBN 1-55821-234-5).

Although primarily known as a sporting humorist (Mr. Zern's "Exit Laughing" column was a staple of Field & Stream magazine for years) this piece is a serious, thoughtful analysis of the question, and I urge you (and my fellow hunters) to read it. Mr. Zern gives eloquent voice to many of the things that I feel deep inside about hunting (and consequently, killing), but have difficulty verbalizing.

To him I raise my glass and say, Well Said!

mill hunky
January 9, 2005, 09:32 PM
it sounds like jan doesn`t eat deer chili, deer meatloaf, chops cooked 6 hours in homemade sauce. or a goose left pink on the bone so not to be tough. rabbit made in a welsh sauce. all the before replys are also good. i aslo bet that she has never stood in a tree @ 20 deg. during a hail ,snow storm. fingers frozen, and when a deer appears to be harvested, and i did, a 190 lb/6 point, with corn all the way to his mouth. it takes all you have to pull back the hammer on a 35. in a blind where the wind freezes your beard to your face ,you get up to walk, your feet half frozen and you fall and dislocate your shoulder. all of this and many more good days in the outdoors, and of my choosing. but to ask a question that may upset a few of the members of this fine site, it is like anything else in this world, you don`t have to do it if you don`t want to. like i`m sorry that i read this post, but i thought i`d put in my 1 cents worth. and no you can`t have any of my deer chili!!!!

joab
January 9, 2005, 09:42 PM
and no you can`t have any of my deer chili!!!! What if I trade you for some homemade beer or rootbeer.

My mom has a friend up north somewhere that sends her about 50lbs of moose meat each year.
You just can't buy that stuff at the grocer

mill hunky
January 9, 2005, 10:00 PM
was just in orlando over the xmas holiday. when i lived in deltona, i had a friend in debarry that made beer. except that he couldn`t make enough.

cadman
January 9, 2005, 10:14 PM
I've done a little hunting when I was younger I may even hunt in the near future, it's a personal decision everyone makes but my question is with regard to trophy hunting.

If you harvest the largest and the best animals aren't you going to be reducing the chances of producing strong stock in future breeding cycles? I don't know enough about wildlife management to know if it's as simple as this.

joab
January 9, 2005, 10:37 PM
If you harvest the largest and the best animals aren't you going to be reducing the chances of producing strong stock in future breeding cycles? By thinning out the dominant older males you are also creating a larger gene pool by allowing the younger males to get in on the action

yorec
January 9, 2005, 10:48 PM
Why kill? To live - the human body needs food to survive. Meat and plants are the only things that are food to the human body. They both are alive, and therefore they must die for the human body to sustain life.

Anyone with a problem with that should try an alternative means of subsistance... :rolleyes:

mill hunky
January 9, 2005, 10:53 PM
cadman
there are so many ways that different states try to control the hunted species. here are a few i know of. some have lotterys, yearly limits, paying for extra doe permits, and private land lease. and some states have started the number of points of a rack. they say it is working in pa. there are more, but it can be researched from state to state.

Lycanthrope
January 9, 2005, 11:01 PM
If I'm to eat meat, I prefer to humanely take the animal myself versus eating a cow that was beat over the head with a hammer. It's the responsible thing to do in my book.

Tamara
January 9, 2005, 11:09 PM
Meat is murder... ...and murder tastes good! ;)

357MagFan
January 9, 2005, 11:30 PM
Im with Lycanthrope I would rather kill the animal myself. I love the outdoors and respect nature and killing the animal to eat it is more moral to me. And face it.. MAN EATS MEAT our bodies are not designed to digest 99.9% of the vegetation on this earth. But you could live off of only meat if you had too.

45 Fu
January 9, 2005, 11:41 PM
Overpopulation is a self-correcting problem, but how much suffering should we allow while things correct themselves? I prefer a solution to the problem that allows for those things which are going to die to do it quickly and in a manner that is as painless as possible.


I kill because I, in one way or another, do so to conform my surroundings to my liking (pest removal), to fill my belly (hunting), or to save my life. I am the top of the food chain. If the animals were smart enough they would turn the tables but, until then, I will continue to do what man does to be comfortable, safe, and well fed.

Lawyer Daggit
January 10, 2005, 02:22 AM
It occurs incidental to the hunt- I once helped a farmer slaughter stock during a drought and I felt really uncomfortable doing it and had dreams for weeks afterwards.

When it occurs incidentally to the hunt it is part of life- and tasteful.

Incidentally I take meat from what I shoot to eat and try not to waste and treat game taken with dignity.

A greeny would not understand what I am saying but I am sure you guys do.

Ohio Annie
January 10, 2005, 06:01 AM
It's important to realize that death by starvation is a SLOW and PAINFUL process, so much so that when people allow domestic animals to starve they are charged with cruelty to animals.

Rojoe67
January 10, 2005, 08:49 AM
I think the Buckeye has said what we all can agree the best two sentences on this topic...... Well said - it is just that simple too..... :D

*Annie congrats on another great NCAA football year... if your a Buckeye fan?

Steve499
January 10, 2005, 12:15 PM
It's a food chain thing, you know, we're at the top of it.

FirstFreedom
January 10, 2005, 12:47 PM
First, with respect to eating them. No it's not necessary to live, but there are reasons:

1. I agree that harvesting an animal from the wild is in a sense morally superior (IMO) to eating meat from animals raised in farms, in little cages, in terrible conditions, genetically engineered to the point where they can't walk from having such meaty bodies, etc. At least the critters I harvest had their lives up to that point to live free, and naturally. And they have a pretty decent chance of living their entire lives without being shot. No so for captive-raised meat consumed by the public. You could make a pretty decent argument that eating commercial meat is immoral, whereas hunting is not.

2. In addition, the meat I eat from wild animals is not contaminated with tons o' antibiotics and such that are injected into commerically raised animals. Plus, they're much leaner. As a result, it's arguable healthier. Perhaps not as healthy as a vegetarian diet, but healthier than commercial meat, IMO.

3. There's a certain definite satisfaction from eating game that you've harvested with your own hand. Very mentally satisfying. This must be a primal urge, dating back to cavemen days. Stronger in men than women, but present in some women too.

4. If you're really good, and hunt enough, you can actually save money over store-bought meat prices in the long run, once you've reached the break-even point and covered the initial outlay cost of your gear (guns, hunting equip, etc.). Granted, the venison I've eaten is well over $100/pound, when you factor this stuff in, but over my lifetime, that unit cost will come down, down, down, and eventually be a plus instead of a minus financially (or so I would like to think - provided I don't pay for a bunch of fancy guided hunts in AK, Can, Africa, etc. - then my meat would be very expensive indeed)

Next, to control pests/varmints:

-Many species are devastating irritants to our livestock, crops, infrastructure, pets, etc., and need to be culled to varying degrees, and some to the largest extent possible without making them become endangered, in many people's opinions anyway, including coyotes, crows, beavers, feral pigs, nutria, mice & rats, prairie dogs, moles, and other rodentia. Perhaps arguably skunks, though I don't view skunks as a problem. I suppose they can carry rabies, but so can dogs for that matter. Deer are also a nuisance in a sense, as mentioned, due to the ticks they carry and spread, and the cause of motor vehicle accidents.

OBIWAN
January 10, 2005, 03:08 PM
Because merely wounding the animal is inhumane :D

Jan
January 10, 2005, 03:45 PM
Rojoe67, you dont have to buy leather, there are other materials available.
as for the paper bit ,very funny !

Jan
January 10, 2005, 03:55 PM
joab, firstly the reason for 2 threads, was because i wasnt sure exactly where i would get the best response, i am new here.

2nd, i dont pay anyone to kill for me.
only meat i eat, is chicken , and turkey at xmas. these birds have been reared free range so i pay extra money for them, so in effect the extra money i pay ensures they have lived a free from suffering life.

357MagFan
January 10, 2005, 04:27 PM
Jan...do you work for peta? Trust me your wasting your time and effort :p

Cowled_Wolfe
January 10, 2005, 04:31 PM
Lemme quote Alton Brown, host of "Good Eats" on the food network... Context: He's answering the question of "Do you buy free range chickens?"

"There's nothing wrong with a free range chicken. I just can't find anybody I respect who can actually tell me there's anything really better about a free range chicken. You know, the fact that a chicken's got a little bitty square space that they can walk around, or that they throw the door open on the chicken house so that they can go out. Well guess what, chickens don't like going out, they like staying in; so I don't know. Higher quality feed is certainly an issue. I mean, the better food the chicken is gonna get, or any other animal for that matter, the better it's gonna taste. So I certainly won't say no to free range chicken, but I'm also not gonna pay that much extra for it. Untill somebody convinces me otherwise."

Emphasis is mine.

Btw, I'd like to know how you know the farm is treating the chickens nicely. Do you ever visit the farm? Do you ever visit the slaughterhouse to make sure they're gentle about cutting the heads off?

joab
January 10, 2005, 05:11 PM
i dont pay anyone to kill for me. So you buy your free ranged chickens live?
Or do you buy them already slaughtered?
Do you think the man that did the killing did it for the thrill or for pay?

If you truly believe that eating meat or using dead animal products is wrong then practice veganism.

If you don't believe that doing so is wrong then don't try to take some moral highroad about how some choose to obtain that dead flesh.

If you pay for dead meat then you have also paid into the system that creates dead meat.

This may surprise and even horrify you to learn, but the only way to create dead meat is to kill something with meat on it.

If you buy that dead meat from the person who created that dead meat or from the person who bought it from the person who created that dead meat then you have paid somebody to do something you don't have the stomach to do for your self i.e. KILL:eek:
Thereby maintaining your ability to look down your nose at those who create your dead meat and also those that create their own dead meat

And fair enough to the answer to question 1

jailmedic
January 10, 2005, 06:04 PM
Jan buys a special breed of free-range chickens bred to grow to a certain size then commit chicken-suicide, thereby relieving him/her of any guilt from the idea that he/she might have actually paid a part of his/her purchase price for someone to kill for him/her..... :D
I'm fairly certain that Jan has never eaten an elk tenderloin.... he/she would most likely switch teams......

Jan
January 10, 2005, 06:15 PM
357magfan. no i dont belong to peta.

Jan
January 10, 2005, 06:17 PM
jailmedic, didnt realize this was a game.

Jan
January 10, 2005, 06:22 PM
joab, what i should have said was that i used to buy free range chickens, but have actually stopped because the shop stopped stocking them.
so i really only buy one free range turkey a year, as i can get that from another shop.

all ive done is ask a question

i think your a bit ott, but thats just my opinion.

jailmedic
January 10, 2005, 06:24 PM
You know, humor?
It is a terrible flaw to take oneself too seriously.....
You don't like hunting? Don't hunt.
If you can come up with a clever, humorous remark about those of us who do shoot and kill things and then eat them, I'll laugh right along with you....

Jan
January 10, 2005, 06:25 PM
cowled wolf, the chickens were monitored by an animal welfare body.

jailmedic
January 10, 2005, 06:26 PM
Have you ever had elk tenderloin?
I mean.... a free range elk.......

grey_pilgrim
January 10, 2005, 07:05 PM
Jan, it comes down to these reasons:

1)I like hunting and
2) If hunting is wrong, its just as wrong as any other type of slaughtering of animals, humane or no.

People often say "if you are going to eat meat, should go to a slaughterhouse and watch <insert animal here> being slaughtered, so you know what it involves"

The people who hunt here have "gone to a slaughterhouse" many times. Every time they kill a big game animal, in fact. People have said this before, and i'll say it again: I don't see what makes hunting worse than what goes on at a slaughterhouse.

We aren't built like the herbivores.

But you are perfectly within your rights not to hunt and not to eat meat . . . so long as you don't try to take hunting away from us. :)

Cowled_Wolfe
January 10, 2005, 07:12 PM
cowled wolf, the chickens were monitored by an animal welfare body. And what body is that? What farm did the chickens come from?

If you're going to give me a response, make it in full with details and all... Otherwise, I'm inclined to see you as pulling on my leg.

joab
January 10, 2005, 07:15 PM
i think your a bit ott, but thats just my opinion And I think you have proven yourself to be a bit hypocritical, but that's just my opinion.

Either you are against killing animals or you are not.
If you are then you could not condone killing in any form.
Instead you use some pathetic and weak argument that the animal that was killed for your benefit was not kept in a cage before you had it snatched up by the feet , plopped down across a chopping block, and beheaded while scraming in disbelief that the people who had treated it so humanely were now executing it.
I know 'cause I've done it so some self righteous goof could feel good about not buying grocer meat

Somehow to you that is better than a wild animal who has never even seen a cage and has lived his entire life as nature intended dying at the hands of a superior predator, which as every deer but Bambi was taught by their mother is also in nature's plan

Long Path
January 10, 2005, 07:44 PM
Wow. Lots of people attacking Jan. No need for that, friends! She did just ask a question. No need to get defensive. I for one am secure enough in my actions and philosophy to respond without animosity at the mere question.

Jan says that she is willing to pay extra for free-range chickens and turkeys, so that her prey lived without suffering and lived healthier. Frankly, I think that's admirable: anyone who's ever seen what conditions most market chickens live in knows that they're usually packed intolerably tight, in unsanitary conditions, and are fed some unhealthy (for us) feed.

But here's the thing: all of the meat that I harvest in a fair chase is "free range". It's all eaten healthy foods. It all lived happily in its natural environment before I took it humanely.
What's the moral difference between buying a "free range" turkey and shooting one in the wild?

What's the moral difference between buying a "free range" chicken and shooting a quail in the field? (Other than the fact that the quail tastes better.)

What's the moral differance between buying (and thus killing) a chicken and buying a cow? (And you may rest assured, most cattle I've ever seen in my life here in Texas are "free range" until they go to the feed lots in the last couple of weeks.)

If a cow, why not a deer? :confused:

Mannlicher
January 10, 2005, 07:49 PM
why don't ya go troll somewhere else? well, why? I think "Better Homes and Gardens" might be a friendlier place for someone that has to question why folks hunt, on a gun board.

joab
January 10, 2005, 08:32 PM
No need to get defensive. Perhaps it's because we have been to the sister thread and read more of what was implied by both questions you say kill or be killed, i dont understand. no animal will attack me in my home, so this must mean that i would have to go find them in their natural habitat, so they can be killed.personally i dont think thats fair. im talking about killing, creeping up on something thats doing no harm to you, and wiping it out. ,i understand that if that is the only food you can get. i wouldnt expect anyone to starve. but on the whole most of us can buy or grow food, i dont buy much meat, only buy it if i know its been treated well in life. And this response to a post that made no mention of killing being funnyold fud, so you find it funny to kill, The question was indeed clear and simple as was the agenda behind it

joab
January 10, 2005, 08:36 PM
the chickens were monitored by an animal welfare body. What organization would that be?

12-34hom
January 10, 2005, 08:53 PM
Long Path has it nailed down, it's just a question folks... no need to get your panties in a bunch...

Serenity now...

12-34hom.

Rojoe67
January 10, 2005, 10:07 PM
This country is the best...... to have such an eye opening debate with all our rights to express ourself.... I love it....... Fun Fun Fun........

and God Bless the Free Range Turkeys too..... :D

FirstFreedom
January 10, 2005, 10:47 PM
Yeah, why is everyone attacking Jan? It was not the least bit deserved. Jan, we're not all as rude as the responses you've gotten so far, other than Long Paths. Folks, she was just saying that, as a principle, the meat she eats was grown in *humane conditions*, chickens and turkeys, one of the humane conditions being a little room to walk around in (free range). That's a perfectly reasonable principle, and like she said, she had to pay a little more for it; just as one pays a tad more for organic vegetables. I for one never knew this existed, because if I did, I'd probably be willing to pay extra for free range stuff - anything that has an assurance of human conditions before the slaughter is worth paying a smidge more for (to me). Just as hunting is humane if I am the hunter. It's a reasonable principle, and people are attacking her on unrelated issues (vegetarian "purism", etc.). Think about what she said exactly; don't make her scapegoat for your anti-PETA, black and white general thoughts on the subject of hunting. Geez.

Agree with Long path and 1234hom.

P.S. OK, the criticism is fair about the statement "I don't hire others to kill for me" - that doesn't make sense, as has been pointed out.

Rojoe67
January 10, 2005, 11:02 PM
It seems to me that no shots were fired.........relax......... enjoy........

we all have ideas to share........nobody got hurt did they? ;)

and the sun shall rise again in the eastern sky.......... and the waters will flow to the seas........ (Chief Scratchumback) :D

Sorry just trying to break the ice here........I promise I will shut up now... :D

Lycanthrope
January 12, 2005, 09:38 AM
If you don't want to explain yourself, then why answer the post?

Leave her be.

Jan
January 12, 2005, 02:19 PM
cowled wolf, its the freedom food scheme run by the RSPCA.

Jan
January 12, 2005, 02:24 PM
First freedom, Pleased to meet you :)

Jan
January 12, 2005, 02:26 PM
Hello Longpath :)

Jan
January 12, 2005, 02:29 PM
Hi Lycanthrope :)

Jseime
January 12, 2005, 04:35 PM
You do raise a point that is a least partially valid however its not simply "killing" ethical hunters practice fair chase and kill animals humanely not simply because they can but because it is an enjoyable pastime for some of us and it is the only way other than the grills of cars that the deer population is controlled. i hunt varmints such as prarie dogs in pastures because it has to be done to control them and i hunt coyotes because there are too many of them and they also eat my cats which are responsible for controling mice so i guess you could say its about maintaining balance in nature and the people who decide how many tags to give out definetly know their facts and would stop hunting if it were a bad thing

Lonestar.45
January 12, 2005, 07:35 PM
To eat. That, and I really really like the smell of a bowkilled hog smoking in the pit. :)

Garthine
January 12, 2005, 10:27 PM
Better the bowkilled hog than the hogkilled bowman......

Garthine
January 12, 2005, 10:34 PM
I dont get it. Why the heck wont you anser some of these fellas with a lil logic? BTW I heard from somewhere (cant remeber where) that socilisem is big in the EU.... & that some of UK`s Parlament members are socilists... Is this correct? Oh & is it illegal to own a firearm (as in a weapon that fires bullets & in some cases i hear crossbow bolts) in the UK?

357MagFan
January 12, 2005, 10:47 PM
Socialism is big in Europe especially France, Spain and Germany where you get 50% penison "or more" for being unemployed and can basically go on without a job and get the free paycheck. Unions are huge and hold the business' hostage so profit sucks, And in France it is ILLEGAL to work more than 35 hours a week because some people actually complained when hard workers were taking up the work so they thought they wouldnt be hireed. It goes on and on..and the Europeons wonder why there economy sucks right now. Oh ya and Frances, Germany and Spains unemployment rate is is all around 10%. DOUBLE what ours is and thats huge because their populations are far less than ours. England is sadly giving in to this socialist crap. Firearms are for the most part illegal, while you may be able to buy some guns, you have no where NEAR the selection you have in the US.
I lived in Europe for 4 years "unfortunetly" when I was a teenager. Lived in Stavanger Norway. "Dads in Oil business" To tell you the truth I kinda liked Norway, beautiful country with fjords for fishing and moutains covererd in forrests with a relatively low population, It would be a hunters paradise. but was completely unimpressed with the rest of Europe while we toured it on vaction. England was ok France was not.. dirty country, rude people. The rest was just.. shall I say Overrated :p

The Revolver
Not as clumsy or random as the semi-auto
An elegant weapon for a more civilized society

PsychoSword
January 13, 2005, 01:29 AM
and the Europeons wonder why there economy sucks right now.

It does? That would be news to economists everywhere. I thought it was the dollar that was in deep trouble, not the euro...

357MagFan
January 13, 2005, 02:03 AM
Actually if you have been keeping up with this stuff it is quite known that Germany and France are having labor problems,"it involves unions, high taxes and socialist handouts etc." and Im not worried about the dollar at all, things in Europe are becoming expensive and since the dollar is a little weaker now Europeans are coming here to buy things more than normally which is a good thing for us too. I actually was wandering why I was seeing so many Euros here lately compared to normal, shopping sprees...
Looks like their politics isnt stopping them from coming over here to shop. :rolleyes:

If you want more info on this buy the magazine "The economist" its a good source of international business info.

PsychoSword
January 13, 2005, 04:22 AM
Contrary to what the neo-conservative talking heads and international investors say, turning us into another China for the benefit of Europa is not a "good thing". The establishment types will use any excuse they can come up with to prop up their flawed system in Europe and ours in the States.

Sorry, we got some serious thread drift going on here and it's mostly my fault..

I won't be responding anymore in this thread.

abelew
January 13, 2005, 11:10 AM
Ever try to find prime elk meat at your grocery? Also, its kind of an excuse to get away from the wife, people, etc and just relax, do what YOU want, get back to the basic nature of nature. No stupid cell phones, bosses nagging you, dishes, you know, the crap that makes your life miserable. Plus, was always kind of a father-son bonding experience. Never had as much fun hunting as i did with my dad (have hunted with him since i was 15, then i moved to FL, havent hunted since).

Ozzieman
January 13, 2005, 04:53 PM
This is an PRO-GUN and PRO hunting for the most part.
I say this incase you diddnt understand that

Jseime
January 13, 2005, 07:21 PM
we've all raised valid points here except maybe Jan. We all seem to agree that "killing" isnt the right term, that deer and other wild game taste good and jan actually does hire people to kill for her even with the "free-range" animals unless they are live. neither do the rest of us hire people to "kill" for us because as hunters we do it all ourselves. it would appear to me that the anti hunting and anti gun people have no logic behind their arguments and cant stand up to a little bit of argument without folding

someday the liberals will lose and our gun control laws in canada will fail and that very day im going out to buy an AR just because i can (thats right im a redneck)

Edward429451
January 13, 2005, 08:46 PM
<why do you Kill ? >

Hey, he was comin right at me! Vicious little buggers them tree rats.

I waste no meat. Mmmmmmustard!! :D

Long Path
January 13, 2005, 08:46 PM
Jan, I have a suggeston
This is an PRO-GUN and PRO hunting for the most part.
I say this incase you diddnt understand that

But it's open to everyone.

Jan's from the UK, and may have some trouble learning our perspective. Help her out, okay? :)

pepsquad
January 13, 2005, 09:30 PM
I have conflicting ideas about meat myself. don't get me wrong i'm big on hunting love the time outdoors and the chase (i've come home empty handed more then a few times). I grew up on a farm and hav e butchered stock, i go hunting and don't have any regrets, the thing that bothers me is Factory farming. in hunting and family farming, animals are treated humanely and thier death is swift. in factory farming the family suffers horrors i would wish on the worst people in the world

America greatly values independance as a society (i'm an anthropology student i spend lots of time studying this S***) and hunting is bar none of the truest expressions of idependance. :cool:

chorlton
January 13, 2005, 10:12 PM
hey, hey, hey, calm down folks. I'm from the UK and damn proud of it. Please dont start with national stereotypes.
Okay, Britain does have very strict gun control laws. Yes, they are irrational. 20 years ago you could buy AK47s there. Michael Ryan changed all that. Its like having Columbine and then banning all the weapons they used. Yes, the arowhead hunting bolts are now illegal, as is virtually any form of weapon on the streets. Feel free to ask any UK related questions anytime.
Back to topic, kinda, I will probably never hunt. I can see how real hunting (a la "deer hunter" scenes) can be quite an experience. I cannot see how sitting next to a feeder is really hunting, but then I've never done it. I don't see the problem with hunting as long as the animal you shoot isn't wasted. It's much better than buying the crap they sell in some supermarkets (full of drugs, maybe BSE). I used to be vegetarian, but I figured the real problem is the factory farming that is so prevalent. If you have respect for nature, then i have respect for you.

joab
January 13, 2005, 10:14 PM
Longpath
There are a hundred different ways to ask the question.
The way she chose to ask it and the subsequent comments she has made has made her position crystal clear to any who wish to read them..

It's the difference between
"Why did you vote for Bush"?
And
"Why would you vote against Kerry"?
One asks a reasonable question and the other makes it clear that I think you were wrong to do so

Trapp
January 14, 2005, 10:24 AM
Why not?

jailmedic
January 14, 2005, 12:12 PM
If we didn't use them, how could you explain the ignorance most Americans have about the rest of the world?
I am a former Texan (never hunted deer there) and I recently took a little trip there just before deer season. During the long drive, I was stunned to look out and see hundreds of deer stand overlooking fields where automatic feeders spread out corn. That is NOT hunting, folks, no matter what you say!

Danindetroit
January 14, 2005, 01:56 PM
Sounds like the ultimate in free range deer. Good food, no cage, and hopefully a humane death. Quality control, on the animal is completely in the end users control, if they want it.

Jan
January 14, 2005, 02:13 PM
Garthine, dont really have an answer to your sociallist question, i dont follow parliaments goings on that much.
here you arent allowed a fire arm unless you have a FAC (firearms certificate) not sure about crossbows, although i may get one ,one day in the future.

not sure what you mean by lil logic, all i can say is that when i put this thread up i didnt realize how busy it would be.

Jan
January 14, 2005, 02:26 PM
manlicher, seems you got a problem , could it be your guilt coming through ?

i dont kill , you obviously do, if you do it for fun then i dissagree with you.

i would only agree with killing an animal if it were the only source of food available.

i am entitled to my opinion. so why do you bother to troll here on my thread if you dont like it ?

Jan
January 14, 2005, 02:31 PM
ozzieman, just cos you got a gun you dont have to kill (not for fun anyway)
i dont and im not alone in my way of thinking.

knightkrawler00
January 14, 2005, 03:39 PM
Why do I kill? A little background. My family owns an orchard and we keep livestock. Cows, horses, chickens, and goats. I don't have a need to kill for meat, have all I want for next to nothing. I hunt coyotes on occasion, and shoot them whenever the opportunity presents itself. We've had a few problems with them harrasing the cows and taking chickens. Every spring I kill as many crows as I can manage, its amazing the damage they can do to cherry and apple crops. When I'm not shooting crows in the spring, I'm killing ground squirrels in the vineyards. One vineyard in particular is so infested that every plant has huge holes dug underneath them. This is definately bad for the crops, a lot of farmers will supply ammunition for you to use.

You can say that I only hunt for depredation purposes. I do enjoy the hunting that I do. Coyotes and crows are a big challenge, they are much smarter than most would believe. The ground squirrels are a large nuisance that if not shot, will be poisoned.

These are my reasons for killing.

Mannlicher
January 14, 2005, 08:04 PM
Jan opines : dont kill , you obviously do, if you do it for fun then i dissagree with you.

i would only agree with killing an animal if it were the only source of food available.

i am entitled to my opinion. so why do you bother to troll here on my thread if you dont like it ?

There are times when I just know its better not to reply to moronic threads, and there are times when I do anyway. This is one of the latter.
Troll your thread? When you post it, you gotta be a big girl, 'cause posting something this inimical to the basic theme of a hunting forum is just asking to get spanked. The thread was ill conceived, and obviously designed from the outset to spark not debate, but rancor. I still think you would feel more at home somewhere else.

MeekAndMild
January 14, 2005, 08:36 PM
I was stunned to look out and see hundreds of deer stand You would have been more stunned to drive I-10 after midnight and see hundreds of deer on the side of the road casually eating grass 2 feet from your car. Especially if one decided to cross when you passed. :eek:

Seriously, they put those feeders all over the south and as far as I can tell all they do is make the deer fatter. We have 'way too many deer now, to the point where they really need to declare a nationwide doe-only season.

Like I've said before its us against them. ;)

John Y Cannuck
January 14, 2005, 10:12 PM
Hunting must be experienced to be understood properly. My wife, on her first deer hunt at 47 years of age, told me she expected that sitting in the bush with a gun, would be the same as sitting there with a camera.
She was amazed, and enthralled by the difference, and was hooked the first time she tried it. You become part of the food chain in a real sense, attached, and a part of nature in a way that's hard to describe. I eat venison, moose, bear, grouse, and everything else I hunt. But the actual kill, is only a very small part of the whole experience.

preciseone
January 15, 2005, 03:16 AM
Jan obviously has her opinion...

The more we entertain her, the more she'll preach... excuse me... educate us.

Let the thread end...

Then let us go to PETA boards and spread our opinion.

Please do tell us Jan where we can find some more of your kind on the Internet.

WAR Fair Chase! WAR Being on TOP of the Food Chain! WAR Having Teeth Evolved to Chew Meat! WAR Not Being a Hypocrite! WAR The 2nd Amendment! And God Bless America!

abelew
January 15, 2005, 07:59 AM
GB, nothing against the citizens over there, as they really arent at fault for their asanine weapon laws, but because of those laws, I could never reside there.

HunterTRW
January 15, 2005, 09:03 AM
Quote:

"You become part of the food chain in a real sense, attached, and a part of nature in a way that's hard to describe. "

Well said, John Y. Cannuck!

Good luck, and good hunting!

1BadF350
January 15, 2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Jan
" i am entitled to my opinion. so why do you bother to troll here on my thread if you dont like it ?"

This was a "troll" thread from the beginning and no goal but to start an argument. I knew that when I read the title. Why I even bothered to open it, nonetheless reply to it is beyond me. I must really be bored.

" all i can say is that when i put this thread up i didnt realize how busy it would be."
Yes you did

Jan
January 15, 2005, 02:36 PM
jseime. i am a human .. ive been born with a much more superior brain than an animal, i can do many things they cant, one of them is to grow food. yes i own a gun, but i have no need to kill for food, i just have to go to the shop, i buy mostly veg and pasta, rarely buy meat. why should i kill if i dont have to?
Unfortunately there will always be people like yourself, people who dont give it a second thought.

my problem is that i care, cant help that, thats who i am !

Jan
January 15, 2005, 02:42 PM
preciseone. my kind of people ?.. all over the world i expect. why peta, im from the UK. im just a caring person thats all nothing more nothing less.

Lycanthrope
January 15, 2005, 03:20 PM
OK Jan, you've spoken your opinion in response to our answers.

The board is for exchange of information and not about what it "right" or "wrong". Many of us have a subjective view of that anyhow.....

If you don't let this go soon, you will only be responsible for causing more bad feelings. Ultimately, I suspect you will have zero say here at all, much less credibility.

joab
January 15, 2005, 03:37 PM
rarely buy meat But you do buy meat, which I'm assuming has been killed im just a caring person thats all nothing more nothing less. Yes you care enough that if you don't have to see the animal die then you can fool yourself into thinking that it is OK, even though it goes against the holier than thou position you have taken against killing for foodUnfortunately there will always be people like yourself, people who dont give it a second thought. Must have missed that part of his post

You are saying that killing for food is wrong if there are other options. But you freely admit that you partake of the dead flesh of an animal that was killed for your benefit.
Exactly what kind of person do you think that makes you?

Long Path
January 15, 2005, 05:16 PM
Well put, Joab.

Jan said:
i dont kill , you obviously do, if you do it for fun then i dissagree with you.But of course you do. If you're purchasing "free range" poultry, you're paying someone to kill an animal. How is that different from killing?

i would only agree with killing an animal if it were the only source of food available.Again, if you can subsist for half the year on non-meat products, why not the rest of the year? I submit that you eat meat not out of necessity but rather because you choose to. Don't water that down. You predate by choice.

You possess an FAC for that firearm? What kind do you have?



Friends, just because someone does not subscribe to the prevailing view of this board doesn't mean that they're trolling when they post. So long as Jan is courteous and follows the rules of the forum (none of which demand that posts be pro-gun, BTW. We're not the Democratic Underground (http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html), here!), she's welcome to stir thought-provoking posts. Frankly, I get bored with looking around the room and finding that everyone agrees with me. :rolleyes:

Para Bellum
January 15, 2005, 06:49 PM
Most of us kill because the eat meat. I do too. To me it's the same whether you kill yourself or have somebody kill for you because you buy killed stuff. That's fine.

What isn't fine is killing without a good reason. If what is being killed is not being eaten, I – generally speaking - have a problem with that.

For all vegans and vegetarian etc: Just imagine a plough and/or a harrow. These tools kill millions of worms, mice, moles, cock chafer grubs, snails, snakes, voles etc. every year. And that’s just to make sure you get your salad and potatoes.

Don’t get me wrong, but the dependence on organic food inevitably causes the ending of life of other organisms in order to keep your own organism alive. Therefore in my opinion anybody who lives and thinks he/she doesn't kill is wrong. As are those who kill for any other reason but for to live.

chorlton
January 15, 2005, 09:24 PM
Anyone been to a slaughterhouse recently? Seen the way factory farmed animals are killed? Listened to the pigs squeal? They smell death coming. Seen the turkeys hung upside down on the conveyor, trying to escape? Most animals are stunned before slaughtering, usually by either CO2 or electricity, but its not always effective. And then theres the smell....
Now tell me that hunting is inhumane in comparison to the meat you see in the supermarket :rolleyes:
I dont hunt, like i said before, but I think that animal lovers should be directing their efforts elsewhere.

MeekAndMild
January 15, 2005, 10:33 PM
This is 'way afield, but I'll point out that our ancestors were all hunters at one time and livestock farmers at another. Our descendants will be hunters and livestock farmers again. Some folks have the luxury of not hunting now, but that is just an artifact of our civilization and said artifact won't last more than a few hundred years if we're lucky or tomorrow if we're not lucky.

All it would take is a single rock from space (http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/risk/) and we lucky city dwellers will again be hunters and farmers or we will be compost.

Nnobby45
January 16, 2005, 12:04 AM
I'd like to say I kill to irritate left wing socialists like Jan who live in a country where one is not even allowed to defend one's home lest they injure the criminal, and who troll websites in a country where people are still relatively free, for no other reason than to stir up trouble.

Actually, though, I have hunted all my life, been a conservationist, respect our public land, and only killed so that I may have enjoyed the sport of hunting which normally consisted of me and my dog high on a mountain somewhere with him working into the wind with his head high, trying to get the sent of birds. Where I can see 50 miles in any direction and not see a sign of another human being, and never consider killing anything but the chukar partridge I love to hunt, during the open season, and only till my quota is filled. And where I experience a freedom the likes of which hasn't existed in the UK since Stonehenge.
I shouldn't be too hard on Jan--as a citizen in a Socialized country where citizens can't defend themselves from violent criminal attack, she hasn't got a clue. :rolleyes:

357MagFan
January 16, 2005, 12:43 AM
well said Nnobby45 well said

chorlton
January 16, 2005, 01:18 PM
See, there you go again with your stereotypes. People still hunt in the UK, and no, its not always with red coats, bugles and hounds. I am, and always will be, a citizen of that country. Lets stick to facts here. Americans abroad have a reputation for being xenophobic and ignorant. As usual, its a stereotype and not true of most people. lets all be open minded enough to learn something about eachother - we can still all make up our own minds ;)

impact
January 16, 2005, 11:35 PM
Jan? Well why? Jan well I will tell you why! First off I did not read any of the other post but yours. When I go to the wood I feel I'm one with nature. I also know that all the bleeding harts don't understand any thing about nature. they only see what they want to see and not the whole pitchure. I hunted almost every weekend last year during deer season and did not even shoot my gun. Am I unhappy I did not shoot a deer? No! Being in the woods is the best medicine money can buy. When the bleeding harts pitch there bitch on TV I know when they are full of BS. Like 99% of the time. Shooting a deer is just icing on the cake. I have watched thing in nature that bleeding harts would not understand. But that is the way it is and you can tell me no different.

Why do I kill? To be part of the whole pitchure. You may not understand the whole pitchure? But I do and it's a beautful thing and makes me feel whole. I'm sure you don't want to hear this! but it makes me think there is a God.

Come to the woods with me and I will show you the whole pitchure!

1BadF350
January 17, 2005, 06:34 AM
Well said impact, I agree completely.

Jan
January 17, 2005, 02:16 PM
Para Bellum, i found your post most interesting.

Jan
January 17, 2005, 02:52 PM
Chorlton,i have seen programmes on tv, about the slaughter of animals, its not nice at all. i refuse to buy any pig product, they are killed in such a bad way.
many years ago i used to eat lamb and beef, but im to unhappy about the way in which they get treated. i buy one free range turkey a year and dont buy chickens any more now that the local shop doesnt stock the rspca monitored range anymore.

1BadF350
January 17, 2005, 03:05 PM
In respnse to that post, you will find that 99.9% of all registered hunters are responsible, ethical sportsmen. You might find 1% who show complete disregard for safety or for conservation principles and blast away at anything that moves. Furthermore, legitimate hunters WILL NOT tolerate such behavior and we see that reckless individuals are prosecuted.

Do you all know where most of the money set aside by states for conservation programs and wildlife management comes from? That's right, the sale of hunting and fishing licenses. Hunters, and pro hunting organizations such as Ducks Unlimited contribute more to the environment and conservation than every PETA puke combined.

You won't find a more conservation minded person than a hunter or a fisherman.

Jan
January 17, 2005, 04:10 PM
Long path, im down to one free range turkey a year, it cost more to ensure it gets treated better in life, i know that one turkey gets killed, and i dont take that lightly, its not been killed for sport and it has had a reasonable life.
btw this turkey is for xmas dinner and tell you the truth i dont eat it myself, my family do.

i have a 22 marlin rifle and im hoping to get a 357 long barrelled revolver.

1BadF350
January 17, 2005, 04:29 PM
That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :D

Rojoe67
January 17, 2005, 05:10 PM
I must admit I have wrote back 3 times on this topic....... and it was a mistake all 3 times........ I have wasted at least 30 minutes of life...and all I can do is ask myself why.....? :D

I keep trying to reason with unreasonable people.......???

fawcettlee
January 17, 2005, 09:22 PM
Oooops! Sorry. Wrong thread.

I think its been clearly demonstrated that neither side is budging.

Jan, I think you've tried very hard to make your point but your compromised position on meat usage, no matter how its dressed up as being as "humane" as posssible, makes your argument hypocritical.
Even though you say you don't partake, that does not absolve you of guilt in having participated in a process which resulted in the slaughter of a living being. A little guilty is still guilty.

You started this thread by asking, "Why do you kill?", but the thread has now been corrupted to the point that its more an indictment of your inconsistency than of hunting. Time to ask another question.

BTW. I don't hunt, but I've seen too many starving deer wandering around in the woods of my state parks to realize that overpopulation is a major problem, and that in lieu of natural predators. the most effective way to manage the population is by hunting. Personally, the only place I want to be at 4-5am is in the middle of a dream involving...

38splfan
January 17, 2005, 09:40 PM
If your intent was to insult or offend the majority of users on this board, you have suceeded.
If that was not your intent, that is what it has metamorphisized into, your fault or not.
The real question here is "why challenge anyone's lifestyle?"

You have challenged hunters/fishermen. Perhaps not as a malicious attack, but a challenge nonthless. They in return have challenged you. Some have responded with logic, and some have not. Either way, they have voiced their opinion, as you have yours, so you have no right to feel any more attacked or insulted than any others on this board.
What you have done is challenge another persons lifestyle. That is why the US and UK are two seperate entities now, and it would seem that not much has changed in 230 years.
America, the individual states, and this board were all concieved with the ideal of "life, liberty, and pursuit of hapiness" in mind. You, I, and all the users of this board should respect that.
We all have different lifestyles, and we all (maybe not you) are guaranteed the freedom to enjoy whatever lifestyle we choose. in that regard, I ask you to respect that freedom, and allow us to live that lifestyle unchallenged. Most of the people here would have done the same had you not prompted us for a response.
My personal belief is that you knew very well how much and what type of response you would get before you asked the question. I also personally beleive that the rants, arguments, and hot tempers that were created here were the the only intention of your post.
However, for the sake of the board and for the other sportsmen here who do not share my opinion, I will assume that you asked innocently and no ill will was meant. That being said, please respect our right to individual preference.

jbadams66
January 17, 2005, 10:55 PM
I have alot of reasons to kill, the biggest reason is in the freezer. I also hunt and kill for sport, if that sounds bad then so be it but until you have been in a duck blind or standing in the flooded timber as ducks cup up and come into your decoys or you have a deer walking 20 yards away as you sit waiting with your bow (or other method) it just can not be explained to you. I also kill for population control when there is a need for it. All the animals have lived a life that had much more freedom then your x-mas turkey but more then likely it was not better. These animals have been chased by other preditors from day one, they have to work to eat during cold winter months when the snow covers there food supply. I guess you could say I am just helping them get away from thier troubles. ;)
I agree with you that the conditions that the animals live in for the mass produced meat arent the best but trust me the people running those opperations try to keep the animals as satisfied as possible because when the animals are treated poorly, they lose money. I have been to the processing plants, chicken houses and feed lots for these animals and its not pretty but it gets the job done. With all your talk of how poor the animals have been treated i hope that you have been to these places too and not just driven past them but gone in and seen how it realy is. Hopefully you are not just a living advertisment passing on a message that you have been told second hand and have no true experience with. The animals are raised as humanely as possible considering it has to be a food supply for several million people.

hivel37
January 18, 2005, 12:59 AM
It wont be long before we'll be swarmed with folks looking out for the rights of VEGETABLES.
What? You've never the scream of a carrot being pulled from the ground? Wait and see.

Ninjato
January 18, 2005, 01:55 AM
People don't hunt in the UK?

John Y Cannuck
January 18, 2005, 06:57 AM
There's lot's of venison in my freezer, BUT, most of it was not hunted!
Most of it was killed by some dude, or dudette driving a car. That's right, road kill.
Going to stop driving Jan?
Death is a part of life.

jailmedic
January 18, 2005, 09:39 AM
It's not meant that way.
I think you really believe what you say you do, but the disconnect is that you are so certain about not killing, and yet you rationalize that "I am down to one free-range turkey a year."
As if that mitigates you denying what you say you believe so fervently?
If you can have one, why not two that came from an especially humane free-range ranch? Or three..... or forty?
And those "free-range" animals don't dislike having their heads chopped off, very much like their captive cousins? Evisceration is different for them?
Do you not see the irony?
Being a vegetarian on ethical grounds is ok, really it is.... if you actually practice those ethics. But lecturing on killing - especially on an American site - is most certainly a masochistic bent for someone who admits that he or she eats meat.....

Jan
January 18, 2005, 04:19 PM
Long Path, i notice you said "so long as Jan is courteous and follows the rules of the forum"....does this apply to all the members here ? does this mean that people here should be courteous to me ?

Jan
January 18, 2005, 04:26 PM
Lycanthrope, thanks for your concern, but im ok :)

1BadF350
January 18, 2005, 04:33 PM
Is this going to turn into a "Boo-Hoo everybody's being mean to me" thing now? :barf:

Jan
January 18, 2005, 04:48 PM
Johnycannuck, my hubby drives, and yeah his hit a fox, that was a bad day.
over here some people hunt foxes, they set dogs on them, the dog rips the poor fox apart, also to train these dogs to reconise a fox, they will set young inexperienced dogs on to baby fox cubs in the nest, its a real mess as the young dogs dont know what to do, btw this is called cubbing. anyway in my opinion enough of our foxes are killed on the road,they dont need to be hunted to death.

Jan
January 18, 2005, 04:50 PM
what you on about Badf350 ?

Jan
January 18, 2005, 04:54 PM
Meekandmild, yep a Rock form space would probably change every thing.

Jan
January 18, 2005, 04:58 PM
Ninjato, yes unfortunately some do. i explained a bit of that to Johnycannuck.

Jan
January 18, 2005, 05:01 PM
hivel37, you never know :) ;)

Jan
January 18, 2005, 05:15 PM
jbadams66, i feel theres no comparison, my one turkey to all the other animals being killed.
anyway we cant just go and walk on farmers land, you could get done for tresspass.

Jseime
January 18, 2005, 06:38 PM
this isnt going anywhere some people do not wish to be reasoned with. could we all just ignore this thread and move on. the anti-hunting/anti-gun people cant back up their arguments and we've proved that point well enough. why dont we all just move on to worthwhile things. i for one am about to go out and try to find the coyotes that keep eating my cats and solve that problem.

jbadams66
January 18, 2005, 07:53 PM
I wouldnt think that someone would change thier entire way of life just because someone told them to and never actually look into it for themselfs. Then this person would say that it is wrong to kill except for 1 turkey but only because it lived a good life. I have a feeling that if you actually looked into the conditions that your blessed turkey lived in it wouldnt be that much different then others. For marketing purposes it wouldnt be difficult to offer about 3 sq. ft more per turkey and call them free range. I doubt the turkey ever noticed the difference.

MeekAndMild
January 18, 2005, 08:08 PM
Er, Jan,

You have so many foxes there that they have to cross roadways to find food and water?

Sounds like there is a fox overpopulation problem. Foxes suffer a great deal when the rabbit population fluctuates and many of them starve to death. Rabbit population normally fluctuates about ten to twenty fold so some years there are enough rabbits so as to support a fox carrying capacity ten times maximum for the next year.

Long Path
January 18, 2005, 09:56 PM
Jan, I don't think anyone here has been especially rude to you, though some could be more welcoming.

To all: Posts on The Firing Line do NOT have to agree with the prevailing point of view! Dissent is NOT trolling!

But things have gotten pretty circular, and I must admit that the thread is (unfortunately) going nowhere.

Closed.

--Long Path

P.S.-- Jan, you never answered what kind of gun you have. Hope you post often with substance here. We're here to learn.