hypothetical armed robber unaware of you

[jacob]

Hypothetical scenario: you are in a bank, store, or other business establishment. A person is holding a gun on a clerk, for a stickup. The BG is unaware of your presence and armed status. There are no non-belligerents behind the BG (in line with him), and you are somewhat behind him. What do you do? I have given this some thought, but I will hold my opinion until receiving some others.

[michael t]

Not my fault clerk didn't bring a gun. But to be serious, Iam not a LEO so I would most likely take cover and hope he takes the money and goes. If looks like clerk is gonna get shot or he spots me then I guess Iam involved other wise its observe and report. Thats my .02 Ive got a house full of kids and I don't get paid to be a cop..

[KurtC]

That depends on the jurisdiction. Appropriate action differs greatly from rural Republican Idaho and urban Democratic New Jersey.

It also depends on the actual demeanor of the BG. If the BG gives no indication that he actually intends to use the firearm, the last thing you want to do is escalate the situation.

One would need to know more specifics before giving an answer.

[Derius_T]

personally, i try to remain as unnoticed as i can, and hopefully he leaves without hurting anyone. But if he were to start hurting people, taking/killing hostages, ect. i think i would have to attempt to stop him.....

[Avizpls]

Ok, lets just say for the sake of argument that it seems he is going to do somehting deadly with his gun to the clerk. As he mentioned, you are behind him, with a clear area if you miss or penetrate thru. Is shooting him from behind OK in this case? Just suppose that all other variables result in your feeling justified in shooting the BG. Will you do it from behind?

[nemesis]

The question here is regarding "another" person, a clerk, being held at gun point and whether anyone would take any action to end the act.

Let's change the question. Suppose it's you held at gun point. Not happy with that? OK, it's your teenage part-time-employee kid held at gun point. Does that change anything for you? What would you like me to do?

You see, I don't want to get involved. It's not my job, I'm not a LEO. As a matter of fact, since the BG didn't see me; I'm just going to crawl out the side door. Sorry! Call 911, they can take care of it. It's nothing to do with me.

I think I justified a withdrawal pretty well. It's nothing do do with me!

Otherwise, Texas law says...............

PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under
Section 9.31;

(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have
retreated; and

(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use
of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault,
robbery, or aggravated robbery.\

Hey, pardner; I'm sorry he's holding a gun on you. I know he might force you into the backroom and kill you there but, hey, this is none of my business and I've got myself to think of. I know you'll understand.

[XavierBreath]

First off, I doubt I'll be in line behind a robber. The first thing a robber will do is get in the back of the line, or come when it's less crowded. The second thing he will do is clear the immediate area around him.

However, if I AM behind him, I will simply put my gun to his skull and either allow him to drop his weapon or take his life as he turns to try to take mine. I have no problem shooting someone in the back of the head if he is turning to shoot me.

I seriously doubt that scenerio will ever play out though, for the reasons I've stated. When the BG robs at gunpoint, he is employing lethal force to accomplish the robbery. I believe the shooting of this BG would meet the criteria for intervention with lethal force in my state. I would not gamble the bank teller's life on the BG's goodwill. That bank teller could be someone's mother or father. If I felt the BG was a threat, and I could take him out with no others being hurt, I would do so. I can also understand why others might not.

[Angelsboy]

I'd be the best witness I could be.
If the bad guy is not out of control, then escalating the situation by confronting him is foolish and dangerous to everyone in the building.
If the bad guy is out of control, it's time to cap him without warning.
Let the on-duty cops confront him after he leaves, as long as he isn't out of control.
BTW, I am a cop. :D

[Derius_T]

As I said before, best not to act, because in my state you can be charged and held responsible for escelating (sp?) the situation, and will probly be sued if you traumatize some schmuck by getting BG blood on them, or using a dirty, dirty, gun in their presense. :barf:



But this is AMERICA......and it wasn't that long ago in the GREAT, AWESOME country we call home, that a BG threatening some innocent person's life faced the chance of getting a hail of bullets from almost every red-blooded, honest, stand up, patriotic, take no crap AMERICAN in the bank.....

And the LEO's of the time woulda came in.....well, he tried to rob the bank huh? Threatened to kill you huh? Waving a gun in a threatening manner huh? So you shot him......good for you......somebody go get the undertaker....hey you there.....drag this guy outside......

[Denied]

I suspect you have a concealed handgun license, if so you surely were told that the only justification for "deadly force" is in defense of your life or another persons.
SO let say you get a clear shot and you talk it, bad guy goes down and everybody is happy. Now comes the detectives and one of the first people they talk to is the clerk who was being robbed. NOW your case hang on what the clerk says. IF they say "he was about to shoot me" all is well, BUT what if they say "all this guy wanted was a few bucks for Christmas and he never had any intention of shooting me, I was not afraid and know he would be on his way, I'm not even sure he had a real gun", guess what happens now. Life as you know it is over.

Old Cop.

[FrankDrebin]

However, if I AM behind him, I will simply put my gun to his skull and either allow him to drop his weapon or take his life as he turns to try to take mine.

Put the gun to his head, huh?? Why not just hand it to him so as not to **** him off by making him go through the trouble of taking it away from you?

[Avizpls]

If he is able to turn around, spot the weapon, lift his arm, grasp the weapon, and lower his arm before Xavier can pull a trigger, he is superman and you shouldnt haver ****** him off in the first place.

[echaraska]

Take the shot, call my lawyer, talk to the media...

[seb5]

What Angelsboy said, exactly.

[Double Naught Spy]

So you are somewhere behind a robber who is robbing a store at gunpoint to the clerk, he appears to be about to harm the clerk, and he does not know you are there or armed.

Most states are going to have laws that allow you to use lethal force justifiably in that sort of situation, should you decide to act. Is shooting from behind okay in this case? Sure, assuming you are legally justified in using lethal force. There aren't any laws about which I am aware that stipulate where lethal force can be applied to the bad guy's body. Tactically, his back to you is a pretty sweet situation for you and a horrible tactical situation for the robber. Being able to dispatch the robber before he knows you are there will mean that he isn't going to be able to stop or counter your attack.

Walking up and putting your gun to his head is a tactical blunder on your part if you do it. Why? Simple. Distance is your friend and works in your favor in such a situation. The closer you are in proximity to the danger, the more likely it is that you could end up injured or killed. Note, the closer the proximity of you to the bad guy, the less skill he will need to be able to shoot at and hit you.

Note, that contrary to Avizipls, the bad guy does not need to be superman to defeat your gun to his head. A quick pivot spin around will break the muzzle his head, hence defeating or delaying your first shot, assuming he has presence of mind to try it. Once spinning, it is likely he will be able to get off shots toward or into you. Because you are in such close proximity to the robber, the robber is going to pretty well know exactly where you are before he pivots and where you will be after he pivots, pretty much in the same place. At that range, arm's length, he is going to be able to get off shots without the need for aiming.

On top of that, he has another advantage that you won't have. He isn't going to care if he has one or more errant shots that hurt or kill somebody down range behind you. The consequences of hitting a bystander simply won't be a significant consideration for him. You, however, must take bystanders into consideration. You probably can't payoff the civil lawsuit(s) filed against you for hitting the bystander. On top of that, the shooting of a bystander may result in criminal charges filed against you.

These sorts of hypothetical senarios, however, often provide the good guy with one aspect that would not be present in real life. That is, total situational awareness. How can you be certain that the robber is acting alone? Obviously, the robber did not know you were there because he was fixated on the clerk and collecting the till. Like the robber, you may be fixated as well, but on him, and hence not aware of any bad guys that might be behind you or somewhere off to your periphery, unnoticed. Before pulling your gun, did you first check your six and other directions to verify that the robber is alone? Such an act would be most prudent. If there is another bad guy behind you somewhere, he may opt to start shooting you while you attempt to draw your gun. Since you didn't meantion clearing your six and other directions, not going for your gun is a reasonable idea. After all, many such crimes are performed by more than one robber working as a team.

[Steve in PA]

This will give you plenty to read.

Loaded question, who do you protect? (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=93059)

[XavierBreath]

You know, looking at this thread, I am rather surprised at my response, and wonder where it came from. It certainly would not have come from me twenty years ago, or even five years ago. I have little doubt that given the opportunity to save a life with minimum chance of injuring innocents vs watching an innocent be murdered, I would take action. I think it is all in the perception of the threat to the teller's life.

I have been trying to figure out where this response came from for the past several hours. Then I recalled a crusty old Master Chief I knew in the Philipines. He would go out every Friday night he could and find a young Marine to fight. When the gator freighters were not at Subic Bay, the pickings for a fight would be pretty slim. It seemed every Marine on base knew this man's reputation, knew that he could and would fight, that he would spend the weekend in the brig or the hospital until the CO got him out on Monday and drove him to work. Master Chief McClary was never, to my knowlege, busted. Why? He was the kind of guy you wanted at your back. He was honorable and trustworthy. He just felt a need to show himself that he still had what it takes to go against young men. He had also lived his life, he had made his contributions, and he would rather die in a barfight in Barrio Baretta than in a nursing home in Boise Idaho. He basically had nothing to loose. I remember one time that McClary told me "There comes a time when a man doesn't care about what will happen, but instead how he will be remembered." I never forgot that.

I have to wonder if there is an age or experience division that separates the people who would act and the people who would stand by. I see my life now as winding down, much like McClary did. My thoughts and resolve are now very different than they were thirty years ago. I do not believe a man could turn and take my gun from me before I could put a bullet in his skull, and yes, I know action beats reaction. All I know is if his gun did not hit the counter immediately, my trigger would be pulled. I would never wait for him to begin to turn. Beware the old man such as McClary and now myself. Our actions may not fit the mold, and we might even be surprised ourselves.

[Wynterbourne]

If he is able to turn around, spot the weapon, lift his arm, grasp the weapon, and lower his arm before Xavier can pull a trigger, he is superman and you shouldnt haver ****** him off in the first place.

No, not Superman, just practiced.

Many, many, many, MANY moons ago, my old sensei and I had a rather long chat about the virtues of 'Glock-Fu'. That is, the use of 9mm semi-automatic weapons platforms in close combat. My opinion, at the time, was that someone with a pistol would always win out on unarmed opponent. So he decided to show me differently.

We spent about two hours going through different scenarios. I was using a small cap pistol, a revolver, to simulate a .38. Face to face, he was able to relieve me of my 'weapon' about 8 out of 10 times, and this was while I was -expecting- him to take it. Then I decided to be cute.

As he turned away, I put the cap pistol to the back of his head. I intended to pull the trigger the moment that it contacted. I didn't have the opportunity.

The second the cap pistol touched his head he dropped low, breaking the line of fire to his head. He spun to his right, moving about 1-1/2 feet to my right, leading with his right hand, which closed on the 'weapon'. His left came up for a heel shot to my kidneys.

The next thing I knew I was on the ground, hurting, and my sensei has the cap pistol in his hands, and the biggest sh*t eating grin I've seen in a long time.

Now, the fact is that 96% of the population is not going to have that degree of training. And those that do are highly unlikely to be found committing an armed robbery. But the possibility does exist. Why risk it?

[mvpel]

Sir Robert Peel, considered to be the Father of modern policing, noted that there is a historic tradition "that the police are the public and that the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen, in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.

[FrankDrebin]

If he is able to turn around, spot the weapon, lift his arm, grasp the weapon, and lower his arm before Xavier can pull a trigger, he is superman and you shouldnt haver ****** him off in the first place.

As was already explalined to you, a guy who knows what he's doing will disarm you in about a quarter of a second. A guy who DOESN'T know what he's doing will still be able to shoot and kill you either just before or just after you shoot him, assuming you're able to hit him before you die. Either way, it's a dumb idea to use a weapon with an effective range of many feet as a contact weapon.

[Model520Fan]

I don't know that the situations you or I so simply hypothesize can or have or will actually exist in real life, but I will take a stab at answering your question.

IF I am sure that there is no seeded backup
AND I think that the perp might shoot someone
AND my state permits me to shoot in those circumstances

OR (I think the perp might shoot me
AND there is no seeded backup)

OR I think the perp will shoot me

THEN I will shoot him in the head repeatedly without warning

OTHERWISE I will not even think about my gun.

As far as your relatives or self being in the position of the teller, I advise you and your relatives to move to Texas and don't bother trying to lay any guilt trips on me for YOUR personal choices. I don't blame anyone in Texas for my living in MA, and I don't expect them to blame me for where they live. You want to be protected, hire a bodyguard or buy your own gun.

[Doerdie]

This is a quote from my local paper today:

"Dec. 21 - A man with a gun who tried to rob The Final Fade barbershop on North Plum St. got a suprise when a barber and a customer pulled out guns and fired at him. Police do not know if the man was hit"

I think there is no clear answer, it all depends on the each situation at the time.

[FrankDrebin]

"Dec. 21 - A man with a gun who tried to rob The Final Fade barbershop on North Plum St. got a suprise when a barber and a customer pulled out guns and fired at him. Police do not know if the man was hit"

See, they should have shot him in the head repeatedly, then there would be no question.

[Doerdie]

Yea, made me wonder...did he run real fast or were they poor shots? I bet the would be robbers pants were in a need of a cleaning, though.

[Wraith]

Two shots, center of mass. I'd tip my hat and say "good day ma'am."

[PsychoSword]

Too many variables, can't say what I'd do. You could have easy access to the BG or he could be behind a big display case. He could be pointing the gun at the clerk or hiding it under a coat.

[XavierBreath]

I think the hypothetical has you in line behind him...........

[PsychoSword]

I think the hypothetical has you in line behind him...........

Says there was a couple of people in front of me. Now if it's a line like the post office, there would be alot of crap in the way. Another bank is the same way.

[Dwight55]

Jacob, . . .

Many are the forces that guide my life, . . . one being the Biblical admonition that "to whom much is given, much shall be required". I have been given the ability to decipher right from wrong, I have a 1911, I have a CCW, I am perhaps the clerk's only hope, period. That said -

IF: I see the gun, . . . and
I see real terror, fear, etc on the clerk, . . . and
I get a sense that this dirtbag will shoot at any provocation.

I have 8 each, 230 grain, FMJ, .45 ACP rounds that say the bad guy made a bad decision that is going to get worse for him, . . . just as soon as I unholster.

I will keep 25 to 30 feet between us if I can because I know my ability to hit him center mass at that distance, . . . and most perps I have known about are lucky to be able to tell muzzle from magazine. I will take the first shot, and if he happens to be looking the other way, . . . so be it.

Please understand I am not making light of this, . . . just a reality check. He will be in the sights as long as he does not telegraph an intention to harm the clerk. The instant I get the "harm" message, I will pull the trigger and I will not look back. That decision will have been made well, it will stand up.

He made the decision to rob, he made the decision to terrorize, he made the decision to make it apparent to me that he is just a trigger pull away from being a murderer. He will have to live with his decisions, . . .

On the other hand, if the gun stays pointed at the ceiling, . . . he can wish me a Happy New Year as he walks out, . . . and I will only be a good witness.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Double Naught Spy]

Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.

Solemn duty to society? What? To protect those folks who haven't taken the time or had the inclination to learn to protect themselves? I don't think so. I help save some poor schmuck behind the counter and I get sued by the family of the deceased, not the schmuck behind the counter. Why is it my duty to risk my life and livelihood for some guy who has bothered to take care of himself?

I haven't purchased guns, gotten training, and practiced so that I can go play super hero.

[XavierBreath]

Aw heck........There are no non-belligerents behind the BG (in line with him), and you are somewhat behind him :rolleyes:

[Ozzieman]

In a purfect world you would pull your gun and shoot him in the head, dead (the bad guy). But can you be sure you will kill the bad guy, will his reflexes cause his hand to tighten and the the poor man behind the counter is dead. He has a wife and 3 children at home, are you able to explane to them why there dady is dead.
A gun is a terrable responsibility, It can save a life by taking another, but it can also turn a simple robbery into a mass killing.
Your question is a good one with many answers. But the person that says "I'm going to pull my gunout and pop him in the head" is a person that probably souldnt be carring a gun.
What I would do is just stand there, and let things run there corse.
But if the bad guy started pulling the trigger, I would do everything in my power to see that no one got killed and then live with the results.
I have only pulled a gun on one person in my life, he had stollen my neighbors car. I caught him that night at a gas station and held him at gun point untill the poliece arived.
My neighbors son asked "Would you have shot him if he had took off running?"
My answer dissipointed him, " He was younger than me and in a lot better shape, I would have waved goodby."

[Lawyer Daggit]

I assume I have a permit for the pistol. In the hypothetical am I an off duty law enforcement officer?.

Robber is likely to have people on watch and with get away vehicle- shooting robber may cause a fire fight and injure friendlies.

I agree with the comment about demeanor- if robber remains calm and your life or the life of the bank teller is not in danger you cannot legally shoot.

If you take action you become responsible for the consequences. Morally I would like to take out the bad dude, but law and morality haave very little to do with one another.


Get ready for the risk of escalation- if they do I agree with the centre of mass comment and be ready for multiple targets as anylook outs- who may not be readily apparent- become animated.

[Derius_T]

Double Naught Spy wrote:

Solemn duty to society? What? To protect those folks who haven't taken the time or had the inclination to learn to protect themselves? I don't think so. I help save some poor schmuck behind the counter and I get sued by the family of the deceased, not the schmuck behind the counter. Why is it my duty to risk my life and livelihood for some guy who has bothered to take care of himself?

I haven't purchased guns, gotten training, and practiced so that I can go play super hero.

I know this isn't going to change your mind, because people always think they are right, but it has to be said. Its this very 'out for me, screw everyone else' mentality that has made this society the cesspool that it is today. There are very few decent men that are willing to stand up for others as well as themselves. These are the very principles this country was founded on! No one has any respect, or a sense of morality, or ethics anymore. Its ME, ME, ME. People are selfish, self-serving, self-centered, and self-absorbed. Its like the doctor who lets the 85 year old man die, that he thinks in reality he could probably save, but the patients age and health give a good chance of death on the table, so the doctor does nothing...man
dies....he can't be sued......oh well.....he was 85 anyway.....

Anyone who can rationalize this type of thinking, maybe doesn't deserve to live in this country whos founding fathers believed exactly the opposite.....

[Derius_T]

Sorry if I get a little heated over issues like these. It just makes me sick when I think about the degrading attitude in america today.....

[FrankDrebin]

Its this very 'out for me, screw everyone else' mentality that has made this society the cesspool that it is today.

Didn't Charles Bronson say that in Deathwishes I-IX?

[mvpel]

I agree with the comment about demeanor- if robber remains calm and your life or the life of the bank teller is not in danger you cannot legally shoot.

If he has a gun out, the life of everyone who's not inside the bank vault is in danger. If he points it at someone, that person is a split-second away from suffering death or serious bodily injury.

The hypothetical wasn't about a typical robbery where a guy in sunglasses and a baseball cap slips a note to a teller who then slips him some money, remember.

[Derius_T]

Didn't Charles Bronson say that in Deathwishes I-IX?

Dunno, never seen them. Must be good movies tho. :D

[jacob]

Clarification: you are not in a check-out queue immediately next to the gun-pointing man. You are perhaps 10 to 20 feet away, maybe in the food aisles unnoticed by the BG who is near the register. Or perhaps you have come in after it was underway, and the door does not make noise. By no non-belligerents behind him, that means no bystanders in line with your potential shot. You have a clear shot. You are not wearing noisy kydex, either. Let us assume that you have done what every CCW holder should do, which is studying the state law relevant to use of force, and you have trained regularly with your firearm.

[Model520Fan]

Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.

Solemn duty to WHAT society? If you are talking NYC, it's not even a society, its a zoo with criminal management and not enough keepers. If you are talking NY, NJ, parts of CA, perhaps MA and many other States whose attitides and practices I'm not aware of, you are talking about a society which DOES NOT WANT YOUR HELP. They think they know how to handle it, and you would be well advised to keep your nose out of it. Certain individuals might want your help now that they are in the situation (and many would not, and many more would sue your buttocks off if it didn't turn out just right), but they didn't want it bad enough to carry guns themselves, or to situate themselves in States that have a slightly more traditional American attitude. As for them, I say **** 'em. And the "society" they rode in on.

As for the dwindling number of States that are not risking the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, if I were located there, I would certainly do my duty, which is to definitively incapacitate without warning any armed robber holding a gun, IFF it were clear that I could do so safely. That's a big iff, and sometimes beyond being evaluated by someone close enough to terminate the activities of the BG who is showing. Did I mention backup in my first post? Think about it.

[Dwight55]

Derius has the right idea, . . . glad we both live in the same state.

Yes, . . . if you are fortunate enough to have your own firearm, legally carrying, catch the act going down: you have a moral obligation to do all in your power to protect the lives and health of those innocents who cannot protect themselves.

Just for the record, most banks forbid their employees to be armed. Their standard line is: "Give em the cash, pull the bill trap if you can, slip in a dye pack if you can, but don't make waves, send em on their way, get a good description, don't exacerbate the situation". I know, I worked for a major Columbus bank for several years.

May God bless,
Dwight

[WolfDog]

If you are in a bank most likely you won't be pulling any sort of firearm unless you are carrying illegally anyways since in most cases it is against the law to carry a firearm inside a financial institution and most of them have many signs out front stating that.

In a store. It is honestly highly unlikely that you would get a clear line of fire at the BG if anyone is in front of you and the panic that ensues if the BG openly brandishes the weapon would only make that worse.

In all likelihood all you would accomplish is getting yourself or someone else sent to the hospital with either the BG's or your bullet in them especially if your shot misses or passes through the BG and into whatever is behind him, namely the clerk.

Now with that no doubt flame worthy response done. I would not clear leather if anyone was in the store because I would only further escilate the situation. I would instead be calling 911 on my cell phone or trying to get the other customers to cover as safely as possible using myself as a shield for them if needed. Once that was done if the BG was still there and I had a clear shot I would call out and order him to drop his weapon and if he so much as flinched in my direction he would be getting number 1 of 6 130 Grain .357 Hydra Shocks seeking to make a few sucking chest wounds in his hide.

[dawg23]

Quote from Wolfdog: "If you are in a bank most likely you won't be pulling any sort of firearm unless you are carrying illegally anyways since in most cases it is against the law to carry a firearm inside a financial institution and most of them have many signs out front stating that."


Don't know where you get this from, but you SURE don't live in Louisiana.

[XavierBreath]

Don't know where you get this from, but you SURE don't live in Louisiana

Yep. :D

[jacob]

Well, I am disappointed by all of the "it's not my problem" attitudes in reply to this scenario. I think that the course taken has to be the one that is estimated to have the greatest probability of the innocent remaining physically unharmed. When someone points a gun at a person who is not threatening anyone, he has made it clear that he is willing to take innocent life. Robberies often turn into shootings. I do not know the statistical incidence of this; perhaps somebody out there has some data. I agree that a scan all around for an accomplice is important. If there is another present who might be an accomplice, then that raises the odds of escalation if a gun was pulled where the accomplice could see it. However, I do not think that an accomplice would rush in and make himself known if he saw the first man go down with a bullet to the brain from an unseen shooter. He would run like a rabbit. An attempted draw where an accomplice could see it would be dangerous, however. Now I wish to move past the matter of an accomplice.
I suppose there would be the possibility of the bad guy looking like the sort who is no threat, but that does not seem likely. Armed robbers are generally repeat offenders who are willing to kill, and he has demonstrated that he is willing to kill when he pointed the gun at the clerk. A way to end that threat would be to put a bullet into the center of his head, interrupting the CNS processing necessary to send a signal to the muscle that flexes his trigger finger. If there is nobody near the line of fire beyond him, which I have said there is not, then this should not be a risky shot. The clerk is not in line with him, which I tried to make clear. If necessary and possible, take a few steps to the side to align properly at a different angle. If a line of fire cannot be obtained which is free of the innocent, then the gun should remain holstered. Focus on the front sight, and stop the threat. Any warning such as "drop the gun or I'll shoot" raises the probability of the innocent getting hurt. I believe that the highest probability of the innocent remaining physically unharmed, in the scenario I described, is to silently draw the gun, assume a proper two handed grip, align the sights with the middle of his head, focus on the front sight, and squeeze one off without warning.

[FrankDrebin]

When someone points a gun at a person who is not threatening anyone, he has made it clear that he is willing to take innocent life.

Unless you can read minds, you have no idea what someone is willing to do whether they're pointing a gun (real or fake) at someone or not.

Robberies often turn into shootings. I do not know the statistical incidence of this; perhaps somebody out there has some data.

In the great majority of cases, robberies DON'T turn into shootings.....Which is why people who work in retail are generally forbidden to carry guns, and are instructed to give up the cash, and why it I'd rather be involved in a hold-up with with people who understand this, as opposed to people who are convinced they have a "moral obligation" to start shooting whenever they see a gun in order to save the day.

[K.A.S.]

Sir Robert Peel, considered to be the Father of modern policing, noted that there is a historic tradition "that the police are the public and that the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen, in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Slinking away and "being a good witness" when you have the ability, the means, and the training to put an immediate end to an imminent deadly threat against the life of another means that you are shirking your solemn duty as a citizen of our society.


Sir Robert Peel died 150 years ago. Firearms were not prevalent in crimes in England then. What firearms there were fired one or two shots. Most incidents like the above scenario would have involved a knife. Most men if they had money would also have carried a cane as part of the dress code. Sword canes were very popular back then. People without much money would frequently carry knives and impact weapons. The chances of someone other than those involved in the fight being injured were much smaller than they are today. Every bank, store or other business establishment where a stickup would be likely that I've ever been to usually has several people inside waiting to make a deposit, cash a check, make a withdrawal, or pay for their purchases. There are usually several employees on top of that. Any handgun that is powerful enough to have a good chance at incapacitating someone rapidly, is also powerful enough to shoot through someone. People when they panic are likely to move. Then you have the fact that you or the robber are likely to miss with some shots. If one of you is hit, there is a possibility you will fire a shot or shots involuntarily as a result. There is also the posibility that when you surprise the robber he will fire. Keep in mind most people in a bank, store, business establishment are going to be in a relatively small are around this. I'm a LEO and in that scenario I would call for backup and just wait and observe unless he was acting as though he was going to shoot someone or there were very few people present and the robber was acting rationally and calmly. I think it's a lot better to lose some money than get someone killed or injured when the possibility of that happening is less if you do option b(call, wait, and observe) than if you do option a(fight it out).

[Derius_T]

FrankDrebin wrote:

In the great majority of cases, robberies DON'T turn into shootings.....Which is why people who work in retail are generally forbidden to carry guns, and are instructed to give up the cash, and why it I'd rather be involved in a hold-up with with people who understand this, as opposed to people who are convinced they have a "moral obligation" to start shooting whenever they see a gun in order to save the day.

Your right. Just give into them. Give them the money. Perpetuate (sp?)
the cycle. Be sheep. Be timid. Give the BG the money and he will go away.

When will this type of thinking STOP? They are CRIMINALS. They CHOOSE to be CRIMINALS. The rights reserved for law abiding citizens NO LONGER APPLY. If we delt with criminals in a much harsher manner, perhaps they would think twice before they murder, rob, rape, and spread fear?

Oh, I can beat to death and rape a few old ladies and the worst I will get is life in prison, where I have no bills, am always fed, have no responsibilities, and recieve medical care? Hmmm.....beats the situation I'm in now.

How do you STOP that type of reasoning? With FEAR OF SWIFT PUNISHMENT.

[FrankDrebin]

Your right. Just give into them. Give them the money. Perpetuate (sp?)
the cycle. Be sheep. Be timid. Give the BG the money and he will go away.

If some potential hero with a gun caused any of my family members to be hurt during a hold-up he'd have a lot more than the hold-up man to worry about. I have a good idea of the proportion of hold-ups that result in people being injured despite cooperating vs. being hurt after somone tried to thwart the hold-up, and if you were responsible for escalating the situation because you felt the need to buck the odds to realize your hero fantasy, I'd be your worst nightmare.

How many people have you shot? Do you have any idea how hard it is to immediatly incapacitate someone who isn't a stationary paper target, assuming you're even able to get the first shot off? If you're so bent on changing things, why don't you hang out in the ghetto for a while with a nice car, nice clothes, and a fat wallet in the wee hours on a hot August night. I'm sure it won't be long before you have a chance to see realize your potential. Maybe Charles Bronson can play you in the movie...

[Model520Fan]

Derius,

Did you ever give thought to the possibility that Frank might know what he's talking about? There are a lot of ways of nailing bank robbers, and you don't necessarily have a right to choose yours on the backs of innocent people. IFF you know for SURE that there is no backup AND you know for sure that you can kill this guy before he can kill or injure anyone else, I have no problem with your going for it. But what makes you so sure that that is the case? How do you know who each person in the bank is? Have you ever killed anyone before? How steady are you when people's lives depend on you? Speak from experience, please.

How about leaving the bank and nailing the guy when he gets outside? He's not going to let you? What makes you so sure he's going to let you shoot him inside the bank?

A lot of talk about a hypothetical that hasn't been fully hypothesized, and no one IN the situation would be likely to know what all the facts really are.

I don't trust much of what I read here, except maybe Frank's.

520

[Wynterbourne]

I find myself agreeing with 520 and Frank.

I do feel that the laws regarding the punishment of violent crime are sadly lacking in this country. I do feel that something should be done to protect society, and to remove a large portion of the criminal element from society. However, actively removing those individuals from society is not the reason to carry a weapon.

I carry a weapon to protect not only my own life, but the lives of those around me. I do not own a weapon to be a hero. I do not own a weapon so I can play the part of an action movie character. I do not carry a weapon to enforce 'swift punishment'.

As long as there is no clear and immediate threat to health and safety, the weapon stays holstered, pure and simple.

Now, if the situation shifts where there is an immediate threat to someone's safety, that's the time to make a move. If you feel that unless you act, there is an extremely high probability that someone will die, consider your options. If you are confident of your ability to drop the individual, with minimal risk to the safety of those around you, and you have an absolutely clear shot, take it.

If taking the shot puts more people at risk, then keep that sucker holstered.

[JohnKSa]

I'd wait until shots were fired or until it was painfully obvious (to everyone) that someone was about to be injured or killed. I would make sure that I was in a situation where a no-bill from the grand jury was a cake-walk. With my luck, if I acted sooner, under the ski mask it would be some 15 yr old kid with a mail order replica gun.

Lots of folks know I'm "into" guns. I would be a big target for a DA wanting to make a case against someone who was "just waiting for a chance to shoot someone." I shudder to think what the (totally legal) contents of my gun safe would look like spread out in a courtroom.

[mvpel]

I'd wait until shots were fired or until it was painfully obvious (to everyone) that someone was about to be injured or killed. I would make sure that I was in a situation where a no-bill from the grand jury was a cake-walk. With my luck, if I acted sooner, under the ski mask it would be some 15 yr old kid with a mail order replica gun.

A kid in a ski mask with a replica gun has a clear intent of making others fear for their lives.

Usually, putting someone in fear for their life makes them do what you want them to do. Other times, among a small percentage of people in nearly all the states, putting someone in fear for their life will get you injured or killed. If a 15-year-old kid is hard-core enough to go out making people fear for their lives, he's hard-core enough to take a bullet or two to center mass.

I wouldn't feel too bad about someone shooting him if at the moment they pulled the trigger they thought that it was a real gun, regardless of whether it turned out to be fake.

[JohnKSa]

A kid in a ski mask with a replica gun has a clear intent of making others fear for their lives.Absolutely true!I wouldn't feel too bad about someone shooting himNor would I--but think of how it will play in front of a jury or in the headlines... A lot of CCW'ers think they'll be hailed as a hero after such an incident. Gun owners who think that way have forgotten who writes the headlines and what the press thinks about guns.

It's true that I have a duty to society--but I have a "prior commitment" to my family and therefore to myself.

[Psalm 144:1]

I`m new to the forum,but do have my opinions concerning this scenario. My CCW package is intended for SELF defense. If "self" is not being threatened, then there is no need to take any defensive measures other than removing myself from the scene. If I can do this discreetly enough,my cell phone and descriptive abilities are the best tools I have to render my duty to society. In any event,my priorities will first be the safeguarding of my family(if we happen to be out together when we happen upon or otherwise become involved in a similar situation)or secondly retreating myself by the most efficient route if I happen to be alone. When retreat becomes impossible,the entire dynamics of the situation change dramatically for me and mine and it becomes quite possible that I just might wind up saving the lives of some others by engaging in the battle to preserve my own.

[FrostyBoy]

FWIW guys, the bank scenario may be the worst place to draw down on the tango. As a bank employee, I am trained in the three C's -- Comply, Comply, Comply!!! Unfortunately, I am not allowed to act. I have to do what the tango says and if safely possible, sound the alarm, usually after the perp leaves. At my branch in particular, we have no security on site. We have to hope and pray that the PD are nearby. They usually are, being that they have a <3 minute response time.

Now, that being said, if I were in the lobby as a customer, my first priority would be to get as much of a description as possible. My second priority is to find the nearest exit or piece of cover. If this is a quiet robbery where noone is the wiser except me, the teller, and the tango, then I will try to nonchalantly notify the nearest bank employee who should have the magic button at his or her desk.

A few LEO have told me that most bank robberies are for drug money. Rarely will you see any on the scope and scale of the LA shootout or what recently happened in Ireland. The guy will come in, approach the teller, and get out as quickly as possible. If he draws attention to himself, then the game is up and he is out the money. The two bank robberies that I have been in are just the same way. Before I or anyone else knew what happened, the robber was out the door. The first time, I made the mistake of trailing after the yutz just to get a description and license plate. The second time, the perp walked out the door and stopped behind the building to shed his disguise and toy gun. What he didn't realize was that he was right outside the lobby and everyone could see him through the mirrored glass.

Most robberies in a true bank lobby are done during the early morning hours. Right at opening when most of us are preoccupied with getting the coffee and answering our emails. I honestly didn't pay attention like I usually do the first time. I would have hit the button if I had seen something amiss. A little hint, if you want to live out this scenario, start doing your banking when the branch opens up.

The grocery store banks are the worst. These are usually hit by dime store thugs just trying to get some quick and dirty cash. You couldn't pay me enough to work in one of those banks. Thank Gawd my bank doesn't operate any. These are the guys who will come in and make noise. They are the most violent offenders. They usually will pistol whip someone to comply and show force. Way too much goin on in the store to attempt to stop the guys here.

Mini marts and liquor stores are not sound scenarios either. These are ofttimes violent robberies that occur and usually end up with someone (i.e. the clerk) getting shot and killed. Forget the roscoe, bring a street howitzer with you when you shop here. Nothing short of a 12 ga. will stop whatever hopped up drugged out maniac intent on robbing this place of business.

I think the greatest thing I learned in CHL class is being aware of my surroundings. I don't ever wish to try and shoot it out with an armed adversary in a storefront situation. The chance is too great that something will go wrong. Mr. Murphy will always find a way to foul things up.

IF AND ONLY IF the threat of imminent harm to myself and others is present, I will expend all the ammunition I have to stop the guy. I hope I never have to. Like some of you have said earlier, I have a wife to go home to as well.

[vitesse9]

but I'm going to say: stay calm, watch the situation like a hawk, get into a ready position WITHOUT letting your body language tip the robber that you are a potential threat, and hope for the best. After scanning the area to make sure that he has no accomplices, I'd watch that tigger finger real closely. If he makes any movement that would indicate he intends to fire, or if he is clearly acting negilgently with the gun as to cause a accidental discharge, then I might act. But, if I think that the situation might end with the guy getting the $ and bolting without harming the clerk, I'm not about to start a shoot out that could get me or the clerk killed.

That plus the fact that, even if I do get the jump on the guy, I still have a lot of problems. I just wanted a gallon of milk, now I'm in a police interview room being asked all sorts of questions, the DA is investigating the situation to decide whether or not to file charges and my gun, which I worked a lot of hours to buy, is now sitting in an evidence bag for an indefinite amout of time.

I'm not a police officer and it's not my job to stop crime. I carry a gun to protect myself. Now, if I think that clerk is going to get hurt, then I'll act to save another human being. But if I think that that the only loss is going to be the money in the register, then that's 7-11's problem.

No heroics here.

[BillCA]

The best course of action is difficult to decide without visually inspecting the scene. But presuming that a miss won't endanger the clerk or bystanders outside, the best course of action is to carefully observe the situation and take action only when or if it appears that someone will get hurt.

If I'm in the store with my wife I will want her to exit via the side/rear door if possible while I stay between her and the BG, again if possible. Otherwise we stay out of sight and quiet until he leaves.

One concern I have with many of the responses here is that one must consider the possibility of making a good COM shot and ... nothing happens to the BG except he's startled by the loud noise. Like the owner of my local liquor store who took 2 .38 rounds to the chest and one to the arm, the BG is too focused on "other matters" to realize he's been hit. Double tapping a BG in this scenario and having him whip around and try to empty a pistol at me as he flees the store is not my idea of a fun night.

If I did take action it would because I had to take action now. Thus I'd not shout any warnings at the BG. Fairness plays no part here as I presume he didn't send a prior notice of his robbery attempt.

I'm also amused by some comments people make about "taking cover". One should realize that in most convenience stores there is plenty of concealment but damn little cover. Items on shelves will likely not stop a bullet, nor will the thin fiberboard which usually acts as the divider.

[abelew]

In my house, hes getting shot till he drops, when I get a good shot on him. Somewhere else, I am going to try to get away unnoticed and call on my cell phone. Im not going to get into any gun battles outside of my house, as the legal aspects are murkey. I would only shoot if I was cornered and nothing else could be done. Course, we have castle doctrine here, so it's my playing field in my house.

[Nortonics]

First off, I doubt I'll be in line behind a robber. The first thing a robber will do is get in the back of the line, or come when it's less crowded. The second thing he will do is clear the immediate area around him.

Oh wow! I guess you've never seen the recorded video on TV where this exact scenario happened, except within a convenience store. It was a Discovery Channel special, or something similar. BG rolls up to register, points gun at teller, while the plain clothes officer is standing right behind him. He freaked (the cop). Immediate draw, stuck it to BG's head, and gave him the ultimatum. BG couldn't believe it! Dropped his weapon on the counter, and so it goes... In this incident the narration points out that often BG's get tunnel vision when doing their crime and are very unaware of their surroundings.

It's funny, because after watching that one video, I believe we have a much better chance of being confronted in a similar way, rather than a home invasion for instance.

[Lazy D]

Even as a LEO I am going to be the best witness ever. Unless he goes mental. Here's why. When on duty I am prepared for an armed encounter. I have a uniform, vest, radio, extra ammo, handcuffs, etc... When off duty I don't have all those tools to my disposal. If the guy goes off the edge, it's just a bad day to be an off duty officer in that bank. You have to take action.

[NYC Drew]

What if I have my weapon in hand and the off duty / plainclothes cop in the bank thinks I'm part of the gang? Or the convienently located police sniper on the roof across the street?

In NY you have a duty to retreat (except in home). zIf he/she cannot see me, I'm getting the hell outta dodge.

NYC Drew

[Arizona Fusilier]

The parameters of the original scenario said:
"A person is holding a gun on a clerk".

While I appreciate the incredible caution and due diligence many are trying to express here, how this cannot be interpreted as an immediate threat to health and safety is beyond me.

Most BGs are not trained with proper weapons discipline or safety. His finger was probably on the trigger when he walked into the store.

If you are waiting for a sign, it will be the clerks brains splattered on the cigarette rack behind him.

[Lazy D]

Man,.........If someone here thinks he is going to shoot a BG with a cock weapon, finger on the trigger, and pointed at someones head, you have been smokeing something. I'm am not trying to be a smart@$$, but in that scenario you would have to make a "Nonreflex Brain Stem" shot. Anything else and he can still pull the trigger and maybe even kill more than one. That is a difficult enough task to do with a sniper rifle, let alone an offduty / undercover handgun. I don't know of anyone who makes a holster for a Rem 700 pss. I guarantee you would be prosecuted for causing the death of the victim, either in court or in the media.

The only way I would ever attempt it is if I am standing right behind the guy and can make a contact shot to the back of the head.

[MrBill]

I use to think about this type of situation. I decided that should it happen, I would do nothing..unless the guy shot the clerk..or someone else. He would have to initiate the violence(i mean actually hurting someone). Honestly, I dont know the clerk, I could probably care less about him/her. I would primarily be concerned about myself and any family/friends with me. They would be my first concern..if I thought he/they posed a danger to us..I would secure my family, as best as possible, if they became aware of us, I would initiate the offensive. I feel bad for the clerk in this scenario, but perhaps they should have been armed, not that would negate his predicament. I will not open myself for any liability for anyone I do not know. I gave this scenario great thought after walking into my usual stop/store immediately after an armed robbery(knife brandished). I had become friendly with the clerk, nice guy, we agreed on many things, etc...I would have taken the shot on that bad guy. If I'd had the chance...poor clerk's been robbed twice before. Said he wished he could someday fight back..not for the store/money, but for the fear they put into him. Damn shame.

[Arc Angel]

:rolleyes: If the weapon isn't used, then, I would do absolutely nothing other than to make ready, draw, and conceal my own gun by my side. ;)

[Para Bellum]

If we knew what we did in situations like these - we wouldn't all be so active in these forums.

I wish I would do the following: check wheter I had a very good chance to save the clerk from the threat, pull and aim very slowly and silent at the back or the side of the BGs head and then shoot well aimed untill the BG stops moving at all.

I also wish that I would only escalate things and open fire if my chances to end up holding the only gun fired were excellent.

I wish that I wouldn't end up regretting why I didn't save a shot clerk athough I could have - likewise - why I started a shooting that killed innocent bystanders.

Tough question. Being a lawyer the answer just is - "that depends"

[Arc Angel]

... I wish I would do the following: check wheter I had a very good chance to save the clerk from the threat, pull and aim very slowly and silent at the back or the side of the BGs head and then shoot well aimed untill the BG stops moving at all.

I also wish that I would only escalate things and open fire if my chances to end up holding the only gun fired were excellent.

I wish that I wouldn't end up regretting why I didn't save a shot clerk athough I could have - likewise - why I started a shooting that killed innocent bystanders ...

:) Maybe English isn't your native language; and something has been lost in translation; but, I got 'a tell ya, that's some of the worst advice I've ever heard!

It might have passed muster 100 years ago in the old West; but it's positively antique in 20th century America. :eek:

PS: Besides, what happens if you do shoot the BG in the back of the head, miss the pons, and the BG reflexes, pulls the trigger, and shoots the clerk as a result of your shot?

Please DO spend more time in these forums! ;)

[infrared35]

As an LEO, I was surprised at the off-duty training I received. We were basically told that we are to be good witnesses, and not to interfere except in the most extreme cases. I know the agency has to limit its liability to a certain extent, but it was still surprising.

[gkbikers]

I can honestly say I don't know what I would do. It is always situational for me. I do care what happens to other people and I will engage; I know, not just `cause I'm saying it, but because I've done it . . . at least twice. Neither time involved the use of a weapon, though once the potential existed to escalate to that level (the other time, I was unarmed).

The scenario being discussed here is just too vague to know what to do for sure.

Do I think . . .

. . . citizens should stand up for and help one another? YES
. . . I should always draw my weapon at the first sign of trouble? NO!

Again, too many variables in this described scenario. Bottom line is that most people will never be trained up enough to handle every situation perfectly. We should just hope to God we are good enough and wise enough to do what needs to be done at the proper time.

[futureforcewarrior22]

I am a United States Marine and proud of it! But, as a member of the armed forces, I am barred from interfering/participating in any civilian law enforcement action. However if out of my MARPAT or dress attire, I feel as if I could offer a countermeasure to a potential or active BG.

Though, I'm sure that a uniformed Marine aiming a .45 at ones cranium and commanding said BG to drop his or her firearm might be more intimidating than a Police Officer or even a private citizen performing the same action. I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do.

As I stated before I mean no offense to anyone, I'm just sayin'. Also I've been thinking of reenlisting in the Corps and maybe retraining as a Designated Marksman or something like that. Going from being behind the 120mm on an M1 to being behind an M14 is a big switch huh?

[chris in va]

..

[FrankDrebin]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do.

Maybe in the old days, but I don't think any stereotype about all Marines being good shots holds true today...especially with a pistol....

[Steve in PA]

"Though, I'm sure that a uniformed Marine aiming a .45 at ones cranium and commanding said BG to drop his or her firearm might be more intimidating than a Police Officer or even a private citizen performing the same action."

Oh really, why would that be?


"I don't mean to offend anyone, but, it's known that a lot of cops can't shoot for crap, and the marksmanship of the average citizen may be questionable to the casual observer, but we all know what a Marine can do."

I was a marksmanship instructor for my company (Echo 2/6) when I was in the Corps, and shooting a rifle is alot different than shooting a handgun. The handgun course is ridicuously easy. Grunts handle and shoot their weapons often. Other MOS rarely shoot their carry weapons except for yearly quals.

[DanV1317]

Shoot the bad guy. You are justified to use deadly force to stop severe bodily injury to another person. Who says the guy wont shoot the clerk, then come and looking for witnesses to shoot? Then it's a shootout. End it before it gets to that point and before the bad guy sees you. Dont miss. that would suck.

[38SnubFan]

Shoot the bad guy. You are justified to use deadly force to stop severe bodily injury to another person. Who says the guy wont shoot the clerk, then come and looking for witnesses to shoot? Then it's a shootout. End it before it gets to that point and before the bad guy sees you. That seems common sense to me. I've given my opinion to this type of scenario before and both myself and a friend of mine (who is an LEO) got ranted and flamed upon. In this scenario, the threat IS imminent. If I can take the shot without harming others, then the BG gets one to the head or center of mass - no warning given, no questions asked.

I am once again (no suprise there!) offended by those who stated, "Poor clerk! Sucks to be him/her. He/she should have been armed." Well, chances are, he/she is not. So does this mean you do not help him/her? Are you really that freaking selfish!?

Dont miss. that would suck. Yeah! No sh**!

-Snub

[Vanguard.45]

1. BANG! BANG! BANG!

2. Go and examine the wounds created by my .45 (curiosity)

3. BANG! (He twitched in the direction of his gun.)

4. Apply for a grant from the Feds claiming that I was "involved" in research concerning ballistics and wounding that would be utilized by the FBI in determining the most effective handgun rounds and in the overall crime statistics.

5. Get a lawyer for the subsequent Wrongful Death lawsuit where I get to hear the "I failed as a mom" complainant describe how her boy was an angel and that it wasn't right how I shot her baby. Nevermind that her other eight kids are all in prison!! :rolleyes:

Vanguard.45

[abelew]

Most bank robbers want $, let them have it, make a good witness. Dont draw attn to yourself unless needed. Being stupid and playing rambo is going to get people killed. Its too bad that in that kind of situation, there aren't any good answers.

[Maxprime]

I think the majority is in line with my thinking - shoot only if the person warrants it. If the gun is "in his pocket" or anything of the like, screw it. If he starts getting tense and waving the gun around or if it EVER sweeps my direction, double tap.

He's holding his gun up to the clerk and you cap him, he accidentally caps the clerk - you've caused a death that might not have happened. It's a tough call, very situation-specific.

[9mmsnoopy]

"SO let say you get a clear shot and you talk it, bad guy goes down and everybody is happy. Now comes the detectives and one of the first people they talk to is the clerk who was being robbed. NOW your case hang on what the clerk says. IF they say "he was about to shoot me" all is well, BUT what if they say "all this guy wanted was a few bucks for Christmas and he never had any intention of shooting me, I was not afraid and know he would be on his way, I'm not even sure he had a real gun", guess what happens now. Life as you know it is over."


i disagree. Americans are fed up with crime. if a BG has a gun in someones face, you do not know what his intentions are, and you wont untill its too late. if indeed he has a gun pointed at someone and you take him down, i dont think a jury in America would convict you.(criminal or cival)


having said that.... i honestly cant say what i would do in that situation. i think the right thing to do would be to put one right in his back and end it right there. hopefully none of us will ever have to find out what we would do.

[9mmsnoopy]

this thread reminds me if the pizza parlor incident a couple weeks ago. that guy was getting the crap beat out of him and all those other people just stood there and watched. its rare when someone wants to help out these days. Mr. Wilson in tyler was a rare breed unfortunately.

[38SnubFan]

If the gun is "in his pocket" or anything of the like, screw it. I have to agree with that. I'm of the feeling that most BG's with a "gun" in their pocket really only have their pointed finger in there. That said though, I'd still be getting behind cover and ready to do what needs done if it escalates from there.

-Snub

[mvpel]

this thread reminds me if the pizza parlor incident a couple weeks ago. that guy was getting the crap beat out of him and all those other people just stood there and watched. its rare when someone wants to help out these days. Mr. Wilson in tyler was a rare breed unfortunately.
Only in states where the spirit has been crushed out of them by condescending AGs and police, and abusive anti-self-defense laws. It'll take Ohio a decade or two to recover from the its recently-corrected defensive firearm ban.

[Kruniac]

In that situation, shoot to... uh... stop. Yeah thats it, stop. Thats the ticket.


In all seriousness, you shoot someone who is robbing a bank. Its a forcible felony - you stopped it. He was threatening the public - you stopped him.

I would rather do time, then sleep knowing someone died because i did nothing.