Shootout In Hollywood

[Full Metal Jacket]

Does anyone recall that shootout in Hollywood, California in 1997? In case you dont, here's what occured:
Several men wearing kevlar body armor from head to toe and armed with fully automatic AK-47's and several semi-auto hunting rifles :eek: robbed a bank in california, and took people inside the bank hostage, shooting at officers and helicopters. To make the story short, no officers or civilians were killed, and the bad guys were all killed.
Just curious, if you were one of those L.A.P.D officers that day, what would u have done? Let's assume you were armed with only a 9mm handgun and had a cell phone, and there was a nearby gun store. What would you have done different that day, or would you do the same thing they did?

[Cowled_Wolfe]

I'd have done what the officers present did. They did everything they could given the situation, their training, and the emotional impact of having ineffective weaponry against such a superior force.

Now assuming I can play 'what if' scenarios which ignore the fact that I'd have been scared s***less... I'd have started trying to hit their AKs or their heads in order to disable their arms or give them concussions...

[DT Guy]

There were armored vehicles present (one was even used, but not aggressively) at the scene.

I'd have tried to run the idiots down. Kevlar doesn't stop trucks. Vehicles often are the BEST available weapons, but it takes an open mind to think of them that way.


Larry

[Cowled_Wolfe]

There were armored vehicles present (one was even used, but not aggressively) at the scene.
There were? All the documentaries I've seen/books I've read seemed to omit that detail if there were... In fact, most seem to make a point that the BGs were putting rounds through the squad cars being used for cover.

Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Full Metal Jacket]

Yes, I believe there was in fact a Brinks armored car present, however even with its level of protection I seriously doubt it could go up against
.308 armor-piercing rounds. Besides, the BG's could of shot out the tires.

[Chiram2003]

The main problem (and little-known fact) with those guys was that (and I say this with a tear) they were former USMC Infantry. They were trained for this type of situation, so to speak. It was (and probably still is) a set back for the USMC, but it does prove intensity of training. Also, as a side note, Lee Harvey Oswald was USMC as well.

But don't hold our current Marines down because of the psychotic few in the past.

[yorec]

They'd still run far enough without tires to get the job done.

But I don't know I'd have done anything different then they did - tough to armchair quarterback after the fact. In the situation, I'd have known no more than they - Belly up the the gunstore boys! Make mine an AR...

[Danindetroit]

Are you sure the criminals were ex-military, I thought they were eastern europeans, they might have had citizenship, but they had lengthy criminal records.

[VaughnT]

CW, the armored vehicles present were from AT Systems, my company. The crew was running their route like any other day when they ran into the shootout. It was pretty cool to see one of our trucks rolling down the road being used as an armored medivac. Why they didn't use it to crush the badguys is open for discourse.

Got to see pics of the interior a few years ago. Bags of coin/cash. Lots of blood.

Don't know if the PD kicked the crew off of the truck or if our guys operated the vehicle while the cops ran around getting wounded.

[joab]

According to the documentary I saw just the other day.
The AT crew drove the vehicle into the fray to extract the officers and civilians.

They also showed video of the BGs shooting at the cops.
I don't think all of the weapons were full auto. I swear I could see one guy's finger moving and forearm flexing with each shot and the shots were coming to slow to be full auto.
Yes the videos were that close and clear.

Alot of people good and bad showed alot of guts that day

[Cowled_Wolfe]

Evil documentries... They lied...

That being said, I think they also had a G3, Joab.

[Double Naught Spy]

Does anyone recall that shootout in Hollywood, California in 1997?

I had to laugh. This is one of those events that occurs repeatedly and often on this and other forums.

Just curious, if you were one of those L.A.P.D officers that day, what would u have done? Let's assume you were armed with only a 9mm handgun and had a cell phone, and there was a nearby gun store. What would you have done different that day, or would you do the same thing they did?

I am not sure of the great aspect of having a cell phone. I don't know if any officers did or did not, but they did have radios. Also, they didn't exactly know there was a gun store nearby. It wasn't like it was right there on the corner. To my knowledge, none of the requisitioned guns actually entered the fight. SWAT showed up with their own guns and that last final assault on Emil was by SWAT officers with their own guns. If any of the gunstore AR15s made it into battle, they apparently were not used very effectively to make any of the needed head shots.

Now assuming I can play 'what if' scenarios which ignore the fact that I'd have been scared s***less... I'd have started trying to hit their AKs or their heads in order to disable their arms or give them concussions...

This was an interesting response, but naive as to the circumstances. Hundreds of rounds were fired by LAPD and if you ever get to watch the original video, try to count the number of shots you see impacting things OTHER than the bad guys. Some of the impact scars on the bank's wall were amazingly high. I am not claiming I could do better, only that that shots would work only if they were in excess of 10 feet tall.

Radio calls went out early describing the fact that the bad guys had "heavy" body armor and to shoot for the head. They tried. For the vast majority of the time, they failed in this task. Keep in mind that shots were being fired with pistols usually from distances something like 50-80 yards to as much as 120 yards. LAPD did not train their officers for making head shots at those ranges with pistols. Sadly, while shotguns were present and could have made the shot with slugs, nobody had any slugs. I don't know if they had anything larger than bird shot in the shotguns. If so, they still managed to not be able to deliver head shots. Bird shot, obviously, wasn't going to be great for stopping the bad guys at distance.

I don't think all of the weapons were full auto.
No, not all the rounds fired were full auto.
"According to Commander Scott LaChasse of the Los Angeles Police Department's (LAPD) Criminal Intelligence Group and Lt. Tom Runyan, Commanding Officer of the LAPD SWAT, during the shootout at the bank, the suspects fired an estimated 1,110 rounds from three fully automatic AK-47s, a .223 fully automatic Bushmaster rifle, a .308 semiautomatic H&K and a semiautomatic 9mm Beretta handgun. - http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html

I'd have tried to run the idiots down. Kevlar doesn't stop trucks. Vehicles often are the BEST available weapons, but it takes an open mind to think of them that way.

Right. Kevlar does not stop trucks. Then again, armored cars don't hold up forever to repeated and concentrated fire which these guys were capable of producing with AP ammo, known or believed to be being used according to the radio calls going out. The glass will fail. Not only that, while attempting to run down the bandit, impacts on the glass will cause enough distortion to severely limit visibility. Between a lack of visibility, hail of fire threatening to penetrate, and the armored truck's great ability to maneuver, I would not count on hitting a bad guy who is on foot. It may take a lot of shots, but the glass (plexi, layered, BP, whatever) will fail. I don't know about the engine compartment, but my guess is that it will fail under heavy fire as well, especially the grill area.

The main problem (and little-known fact) with those guys was that (and I say this with a tear) they were former USMC Infantry. They were trained for this type of situation, so to speak. It was (and probably still is) a set back for the USMC, but it does prove intensity of training. Also, as a side note, Lee Harvey Oswald was USMC as well.

Wow, so little known that the robbers didn't even know they were military trained! The late Mr. Matasareanu, 30, was born in Romania and grew up partly in Altadena. He turned to computers because he was teased for being chubby. After graduating from DeVry Institute of Technology in Los Angeles, he operated his own business, working as a computer technician and software designer, his mother, Valerie Nicolescu, told reporters. - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1211/index2.html Chiram, I think you are confused with the bandits who shot it out with the FBI in 1986. Platt being the one who used military tactics on the unsuspecting FBI agents and advanced on their position when he basically was in a losing position in the fight. This completely took the agents by surprise.

Are you sure the criminals were ex-military, I thought they were eastern europeans, they might have had citizenship, but they had lengthy criminal records.

Emil was Romanian. Larry Eugene Phillips, Jr., was an American as far as I know. Neither were military or particularly well trained in that manner, although both apparently were fairly familiar with firearms and armor. Phillips wasn't that knowing about guns. He abandoned his AK47 when it stove-piped, an easy malfunction to clear.

[Cowled_Wolfe]

Radio calls went out early describing the fact that the bad guys had "heavy" body armor and to shoot for the head. They tried. For the vast majority of the time, they failed in this task. Keep in mind that shots were being fired with pistols usually from distances something like 50-80 yards to as much as 120 yards. LAPD did not train their officers for making head shots at those ranges with pistols. Now assuming I can play 'what if' scenarios which ignore the fact that I'd have been scared s***less... I'd have started trying to hit their AKs or their heads in order to disable their arms or give them concussions...
Read the bolded text... Then call my response naive again.

... I am not claiming I could do better, ...
Me neither. If I were one of them, I'd probably have been shooting way too high also.

[joab]

three fully automatic AK-47s, a .223 fully automatic Bushmaster rifle, I wonder if they had paid the proper fees.
Somebody had to say it ;)

[Danindetroit]

DNS

I had to laugh. This is one of those events that occurs repeatedly and often on this and other forums.

That is nice, since maybe FMJ is new to this forums, and maybe gun forums in general, he has never participated in "one of those events" I haven't. I notice that when a new person, opens an old topic, there is backlash, if they start a new thread on the same topic, they get the same thing. You do not have to read it, or reply.

Are you sure the criminals were ex-military, I thought they were eastern europeans, they might have had citizenship, but they had lengthy criminal records.

Emil was Romanian. Larry Eugene Phillips, Jr., was an American as far as I know. Neither were military or particularly well trained in that manner, although both apparently were fairly familiar with firearms and armor. Phillips wasn't that knowing about guns. He abandoned his AK47 when it stove-piped, an easy malfunction to clear.

What was phillips ethnicity? Was he a citizen? Was Emil? Did they have criminal records? I think romanian qualifies as eastern-european. I am of polish ancestry, born in the us, I qualify as eastern european, in my opinion. If you are going to reply to people like they are of dimished capacity, or their opinion doesn't matter, please don't bother, I would rather have the wrong knowledge, I took this as a fun what if thread, not a lecture.

I don't know about the engine compartment, but my guess is that it will fail under heavy fire as well, especially the grill area.

As far as any round short of .50 bmg, penetrating an engine block, I am highly skeptical. A v-8 engine still has a lot of steel in the walls of the V, most armored cars use diesel engines, california might be different, but most diesels, are inline 6's, I am guessing around 9 liters, that is a whole to of steel to hide behind. Please do not reply to this thread again, and restrain yourself from sharing your infinite wisdom again, I guess trying to put people down so you seem above them still goes on. Try building yourself up, rather than trying to chop other people down.

[Phil306]

Sorry, I cry BS to these idiots being former Marines. Without any proof, without jack to back up that claim, don't post it.

I will say this: If you want a THOROUGH debriefing of the shooting/situation, without ANY of the hype and BS, go to Scott Reitz's Ultimate Tactical Course. My wife and I attended in February of this year. The team leader from the SWAT Team which responded, the guy in the video wearing shorts and shooting the bad guy, gave us a good debrief.

Just food for thought: Don't believe everything you read and/or see on the internet, etc.

Thin The Herd

[Double Naught Spy]

Cowled-Wolfe, if they could not hit the bad guys in the head, what makes you think they could hit the AK47s, or you for that matter?

I did like the part about giving the bad guys concussions. I didn't know you had that sort of control on your ammo. Yes, that is pretty naive.

I'd have done what the officers present did. They did everything they could given the situation, their training, and the emotional impact of having ineffective weaponry against such a superior force.

I didn't comment on it earlier, but I will here. I also liked the notion of the ineffective weaponry against such a superior force. At the height of battle, there were somewhere between 300 and 400 LAPD officers (depending on sources) involved against 2 guys. LAPD has SWAT units (with full auto as noted on a recent remake documentary, but the full auto are MP5s, I believe, not .5.56), radios, and helicopters. Plus, the PD had all the advantages of various news organizations providing live feeds. They even had their own armored vehicle and commandeered another. Tell me again, why two guys in body armor with full auto rifles with extremely limited mobility, no intel, no access to backup, and no com systems are superior to hundreds of officers? They were not a superior force. They simply did not have the hangups LAPD had. They did not have to worry about collateral damage. They did not have a command structure break down that slowed implementation of weaponry and people. The robbers came prepared for battle. LAPD did not. The robbers wore armor that would stop most rounds used by the LAPD, mixing hard and soft body armor over large areas of their bodies. LAPD had on soft armor only that covered limited areas.

Two guys are not a superior force over the entire LAPD. They were simply better able to make do with the circumstances than LAPD. Maybe you can come up with the data on this, but with the downed officers and bystanders, LAPD invested a lot of time and people into trying to effect rescues. That is very noble, but not necessarily strategically smart. Resources that could have been used to stop the gunmen were used to try to effect the rescues. The result? The gunmen were able to battle longer because many of the combatants that would have been involved in trying to stop them were doing rescue. Time that should have been used to figure out how to stop the bad guys by the commanders was put into trying to figure out how to implement rescues. It sucks from a strategic perspective, but our society puts more into saving good people than killing bad people. This incident was a classic example.

Danindetroit, Yes, FMJ maybe new to the forums. So he got a full metal response. New or not, he has access to the same search key we all do.

I thought Phillips was American. That is not ethnicity, but country. We are not talking genetics. I have no idea of either man's actual ethnicity. Location of birth does not determine ethnicity. If he isn't American, I haven't seen it posted anywhere else. Me, I don't care what ethnicity he was or was not. My statements were as to the robbers' background and military training. These guys were not military trained.

I did not answer as I thought somebody else had, but both were arrested previously, at least in AZ, and managed to petition the court to get back their weapons (which apparently were not illegal Class III).

Emil? Did you read the link I posted? I stated his background as I knew it. If you don't like the lectures, then look up the information yourself. While this was meant was an informative thread, what I saw was some fact being intermingled with a lot of garbage about the event. People were posting supposedly as to answer questions, but when stuff is just being made up or thrown out without verification, things go south really quick.

As for addressing you as if you had diminished capacity, I did not, but I will leave you with this example of yours that made no sense. You appear to be linking a series of pseudo-related answers into one lot, but the punctuation doesn't jive.

Are you sure the criminals were ex-military, I thought they were eastern europeans, they might have had citizenship, but they had lengthy criminal records.

I have no idea what being ex-military has to do with being eastern european. I have no idea why you are asking me again in your last post as to whether or not the guys had criminal records when you already stated previously that they had lengthy criminal records as noted in the quote above.

I have no idea about your comments on .50 BMG penetrating an engine block. .50 BMG wasn't in play during the incident. My comments pertained to using an armored truck to run down the back guys. It does not take a whole lot to seize and engine and you don't have to use a .50 BMG to penetrate the block to do it. Once seized, you aren't running down anyone. You can stop an armored truck with a lot of calibers of gun. All that is necessary is penetration of the engine compartment and then damage to some of the key systems such as electrical and cooling. The little computers that run the engines don't stand up to much abuse at all.

[Danindetroit]

An engine can run a long time with a lot of damage. You risk losing the block. I am sure that armored truck builders have taken precautions to make sure the drivetrain of thier vehicle, can withstand punishment, or else you would just shoot it with a .300 win mag in the engine compartment, and be able to have your way with it. It seems to have been used to pick up injured officers very well.

Different oil coolers, can be used, with a redundant oiling system, I thought that some very high reving motorcycles, had oil that was splashed on the underside of the piston for added cooling. The engine can have fins so that it acctually can run without coolant for a wile, like the corvair with the boxer 6, and various european cars.

Yes we can do a search, or look at a thread, but then we get the been there done that from people either way. You are not obligated to reply. Once again maybe FMJ does not want to read about the accounts, but discuss them with people, polite people.

[shaggy]

As far as any round short of .50 bmg, penetrating an engine block, I am highly skeptical. A v-8 engine still has a lot of steel in the walls of the V, most armored cars use diesel engines, california might be different, but most diesels, are inline 6's, I am guessing around 9 liters, that is a whole to of steel to hide behind.

In my experience shooting vehicles, a 308 will easily penetrate. The engine is not a homogeneous unit; there are many different angles, materials, and surfaces involved. A hit straight into the block will usually be contained, but many (actually most) rounds hit the block and deflect. Some will just tear through a corner of the engine and continue. Many will have enough energy to continue, either on a direct path , or deflected, through the opposing side of the vehicle (if shot from a side) or into the passenger compartment (if shot from the front). And this is only with standard ball or a 4:1 ball/tracer mix, not AP. I suspect AP would do an even better job. Obviously .50 would also.

http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=31674

[Danindetroit]

On a normal car, but this is an armored bank delivery vehicle. On a big block chevy, a hit right in the v if it goes through and through on a chevelle, and misses the distributor, will not really affect the performance for a while, the metal, may get on the cam, I can't remember what a chevy looks like, I though you could get something that fit in the valley of the v. A cat diesel, that is a lot of steel just to get one cylinder to lose compression,and the block is usually sleeved, so no overboring, just slip in a new sleeve. Engines are very tough. How much steel can a .308 ap penetrate?

[rugerdude]

"Sadly, while shotguns were present and could have made the shot with slugs, nobody had any slugs. I don't know if they had anything larger than bird shot in the shotguns."

I have no idea if this is true or not but it doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you have a shotgun to defend yourself and the lives of others and put birdshot in it and have no other backup options ammowise? I understand that they have to worry about overpenetration of the rounds but to not have buckshot or slugs at ALL is beyond me. Was this a policy for california police officers or something?

I have 2 questions,
1. How many times were the BGs hit?
2. did the police ever try to flank the BGs and try for a closer headshot?

The .308 they used was an hk91 BTW

[joab]

1. How many times were the BGs hit? According to the documentary, one was shot 11 times and one was shot 29.
I can't remeber which one surrendered, but he died later

[Old NFO]

That "documentary" had a LOT of holes in it... The BG's had both full auto and semi-auto weapons. They did not have AP rounds (contrary to published reports). I was working in the LA basin for the Gov't at that time and I watched it on TV that day in LA. I used to shoot with a lot of the LAPD and LASO folks down at a range in Torrence owned by a Torrence PD officer; and was concerned because I knew officers that were in NHD, RHD, and SWAT. FWIW I talked to the officer that made that shot on BG 1 (not a "self-inflicted wound as stated in the documentary)- He stated he was down to his last clip and "thought" he was down to his last round. He braced on a 6-8" tree he was "hiding" behind and took the shot from about 50-60 feet. He admitted he was surprised when the BG dropped. He basically said, "I figured I'd empty the clip then run like H... Most of the officers only had 3 clips of ammo and most shot them out, with no spares available.

The SWAT team was delayed by traffic and in fact, never got to the scene until after everything was over (there were multiple calls to airdeploy them, but all the helo's were tied up). I also talked to a SWAT officer (who I shot with and was a Nam vet and "knew" the sound of an AK of full auto) that made the shot from under the patrol car. He told us that they were told respond to scene , don't wait for the truck, so he responded in cutoff's and a t-shirt. He got there, threw on a vest, grabbed an M-16 and jumped in the front seat of the cruiser. They went in and he returned fire, then told us he couldn't figure out how he was going to get out of the right front seat, so he slid across on his back and flopped out on the driver's side. He realized he could see the BG's legs under the cars, so he took a shot and dropped the guy, then shot again (the second or sebsequent shot appearantly hit the Femoral artery, which caused the BG to bleed out). He also told us there was no way to get medical care to either BG, as they were still concerned there was a 3rd BG and all non-LE were being kept out of the area (which also delayed the EMS response to help the LEO's and civilians).
FYI, the first in car has never been repaired, it is at the LAPD Police Academy and is used as a "training" tool now. It has over 400 holes in it, including quite a few that appear to be 9mm holes.
One other major change was the issuance within a month of AR-15's to all patrol/shift Sgt's and TO's in both LAPD and LASO.

We can armchair quarterback this to death, but we weren't there. I think the men and women of the LAPD did their best that day, considering how badly they were out gunned- They never gave up, overcame departmental interia and triumphed in the end. There were a lot of civilians (Gun shop owner, truck drivers, etc.) that never got ANY credit for their assist, however some of the officers took it on themselves to thank those who helped.

[ISP2605]

"According to the documentary, one was shot 11 times and one was shot 29.
I can't remeber which one surrendered, but he died later"

I've attended 2 briefings on the shootout. One was by the on scene commander and the other briefing was by the 2 detectives who conducted the investigation. I have the briefing notes from the commander. Some of the stats from his briefing notes:
Phillips received 9 wounds, including the self-inflicted wound which entered under his chin and was probably the fatal wound. Matasareanu received 29 wounds.
Over 550 rds were fired by officers and another 90+ rds were fired by SWAT. The subjects fired over 1100 rds.
Officers' weapons were .38 revolvers, 9mm pistols, and Ithaca 12 ga shotguns with 00 Buck (not birdshot). Slugs were not authorized for carry.
The subjects were armed with 3 fully auto AK-47; 1 fully auto .308 H&K; 1 fully auto Bushmaster; 1 Beretta 92F, over 2600 rds of ammo; and 1 IED consisting of 2 one gallon jars of gasoline.
Weapons and ammo were retrieved from a nearby gunshop; however, none of those weapons were used during the shootout and no rounds were fired from those weapons.

[Old NFO]

ISP2605 noted
Phillips received 9 wounds, including the self-inflicted wound which entered under his chin and was probably the fatal wound.:

Interesting... I left out there in late '97 and never got to find out what the investigation turned up. Most of my info was based on conversations in the month after the shootout. Based on your comment, I know there is one officer who sleeps a lot better knowing that he didn't in fact take a life.
thanks,
jim

[joab]

That "documentary" had a LOT of holes in it... That can't be true. It was on Discovery Channel for God's sake :rolleyes:

[Cowled_Wolfe]

Cowled-Wolfe, if they could not hit the bad guys in the head, what makes you think they could hit the AK47s, or you for that matter?Now assuming I can play 'what if' scenarios which ignore the fact that I'd have been scared s***less... I'd have started trying to hit their AKs or their heads in order to disable their arms or give them concussions...I never said I'd be able to hit either target. I did say I'd try to, though.
Excerpt from definitions of 'try':
5 : to make an attempt at
I did like the part about giving the bad guys concussions. I didn't know you had that sort of control on your ammo. Yes, that is pretty naive.Yeah, the idea of having control over a bullet in flight is pretty naive... But I do have a few questions. I'll even answer them for you!

Would a standard 9mm round penetrate a helmet at that range? No.
Would a standard 9mm round give the guy in the helmet a pretty hard knock? Yes.
Would that knock be enough to give him a concussion? Probably.

I think naive would be thinking a round's going to go right through his helmet and blow his brains out.

I didn't comment on it earlier, but I will here. I also liked the notion of the ineffective weaponry against such a superior force.I consider weapons to be ineffective when a BG is hit 10 or more times and is still standing, don't you?
At the height of battle, there were somewhere between 300 and 400 LAPD officers (depending on sources) involved against 2 guys.Earlier you mentioned watching all the bullets pinging in news footage. Watch that footage, then tell me how many officers you see actively involved.
LAPD has SWAT units (with full auto as noted on a recent remake documentary, but the full auto are MP5s, I believe, not .5.56), radios, and helicopters.And when the SWAT units finally arrived, it didn't take long to end the conflict. The officers there for the bulk of the time didn't have MP5s or ARs.
Plus, the PD had all the advantages of various news organizations providing live feeds. They even had their own armored vehicle and commandeered another. Live feeds to whichever call center, perhaps, but I don't think the officers on the scene were able to watch a TV -- at the most, I can see some descriptions of what's on TV via radio, which probably weren't fast enough to stay caught up in the confusion of the fight. The armored vehicles sure didn't help much... In fact, you seemed to make a point earlier that the BGs could have stopped an armored vehicle.Tell me again, why two guys in body armor with full auto rifles with extremely limited mobility, no intel, no access to backup, and no com systems are superior to hundreds of officers? Because the BGs had armor which protected them from the weapos available to the officers they were fighting (untill the end when SWAT arrived), because they had automatic weapons which could penetrate the police body armor as well as some of their cover. Because they were heavily armored enough that moving around wasn't very neccessary (they had the police pinned, and therefore didn't need to move quickly). They didn't have intel, but all else was in their favor for the bulk of the fight. When you're that well armed and armored, and you're fighting police who don't have the arms or armor to protect themselves/hurt you, you don't need much backup, do you? They weren't far enough apart to need a com system, and there were only two of them in the first place. Yelling woulda worked. I already addressed your claims of hundreds of officers.
They were not a superior force.Read the above.
They simply did not have the hangups LAPD had. They did not have to worry about collateral damage. They did not have a command structure break down that slowed implementation of weaponry and people.The BGs had that in their favor too.
The robbers came prepared for battle. LAPD did not. The robbers wore armor that would stop most rounds used by the LAPD, mixing hard and soft body armor over large areas of their bodies. LAPD had on soft armor only that covered limited areas.So why did you argue that the police had MP5s and ARs? Right here, you're acknowledging that they didn't have an advantage in arms or armor. Also, I don't think the police were too worried about collateral damage: You described all the police bullets hitting the building behind the BGs; also, the SWAT officers who approached the BG by the disabled brownish truck shot back through the truck and the car next to it -- without showing much regard for the condition of the vehicles.

Simply put, the police only gained the upper hand at the end of the fight (hence it being the end), but they were vastly incapable of overcoming the BGs' force for almost all of the conflict.

[PsychoSword]

I still find it amazing that not one of the L.A. P.D. who responded could get anything close to a headshot any of the time while the perps (read "felons" for all the newspeak folks) were standing out front shooting random s**t, shooting at helicopters, shooting at stores across the street, ect.

Somebody's gonna post, "we'll see how good you shoot while somebody is shooting back at you", bulls**t if anybody there was worth a s**t the arseholes never would have made it any farther and never would have had more chances to blow away any bank employees or customers.

[Cowled_Wolfe]

Isn't 'newspeak' a "1984" reference?

I ask this because the last time I read that was in 6th grade, I was bored as hell, and I only survived reading through half of it. :o

[Danindetroit]

This is from memory, and may be incorrect, but the actual shootout involved less than 100 people I believe, I think, after the 2 guys were dead, they still had a massive search underway, for other people, being covered head to toe, and probably indistinguishable in the excitement, people probably didn't believe only 2 people could do this alone, I believe they were on prescription painkillers, I guess when #'s of wounds are mentioned, I have to ask is a bruise under armor, caused by a bullet a wound. These types of injuries usually require hospitalization. The fact that they sustained X wounds doesn't tell the story, if they posibly sustained 98% of them in the last 30 seconds in thier life.

These officers are supposed to be trained for these situations, The media protrays LA, as a haven of gang members using fully-auto ak-47's everyday. Gee maybe the media is wrong, and most gang shootings are mainly from .38 revolvers, sawed off, single, or 2 barrel shotguns, with semi-auto 9mm starting to be seen more often in the late 90's, to now. The lack of sustained SG fire, or lack of ammo is appaling, it probably is a result of the officers don't like to shoot slugs, or heavy 00 loads. I am not sure, but if you brought in extra ammo, buck, and slug loads for your SG, it may be against policy, but dying and a write-up, or even losing your job is a personal decision.

The lack of training of LE nation-wide is horrendous, a paid amount of monthly range time should be instituted. I do not kow the amount of gun ranges , or quality in LA, but you can go on your day off, and shoot at longer ranges to see the hold on your gun, after all it is your life, Keep the receipt, and if you are lucky enough to itemize your deductions, deduct it. The decision to go to .45 caliber handguns alludes me, I did not think they penetrated a bullet proof vest more than a 9mm. It seems the 9 has some pretty hot LE loads out there, that would cause more blunt force than a .45 the lapd went with, I though the slower a projectile, the more time for the fibers, to disperse the force over a larger area. I may be wrong. I thought that some of the respondents were off-duty, so that maybe swat team members were at the actual shootout, but not an "official swat team". I am not sure what went on in the bank, but from some picks of the hardware shown in a thread asking about ccw weapons, I have to ask, could a couple of guys from this board, have snuck up behind the BG's while exiting, or firing at the front of the bank on officers, standing on either side of the doorway, put 2 rounds in the back of their heads?, or in their extremeities, after getting people to cover of course. This may not contain 1 fact, it is purely speculation.

[Danindetroit]

CW you are correct, it is not news speak, but, new speak, a new actuall language that was supposed to be emerging.

[ISP2605]

"Somebody's gonna post, "we'll see how good you shoot while somebody is shooting back at you", bulls**t if anybody there was worth a s**t the arseholes never would have made it any farther and never would have had more chances to blow away any bank employees or customers."

It's nice to see we have an experienced gun fighter on the list. One who has obviously, from his post, been involved in multiple shootouts, has the first hand experience to know what a gun fight is like and all the dynamics involved, and who has interviewed, first hand, numerous participants in shootouts. :rolleyes:

It's easy to shoot accurately when no one is shooting back. It's even easier to shoot accurately sitting behind a computer.
Some people need to stick with their computer games.

[ISP2605]

"This is from memory, and may be incorrect, but the actual shootout involved less than 100 people I believe,"

According to the on scene commander and the 2 detectives who conducted the investigation 32 LAPD offiicers fired their weapons.
9 LAPD were wounded by gun fire.
3 citizens were wounded.
1 officer was injured in a traffic collision responding to the scene.
1 officer was injured from non-gun fire causes.
12 squad cars were damaged beyond repair.
1 squad car received 57 separate rds.
Across the street was a kiosk which several officers used for cover. It received over 150 rds.

For the LEOs on the list if you get the chance to hear either the on scene commander or the detectives speak then take the time to go. Particularly the on scene commander. They were making the rounds to the usual LEO only type meetings.

[Don Gwinn]

Play nice, folks. No profanity and let's not get too huffy over that which is, after all, hypothetical.

[Tamara]

I still find it amazing that not one of the L.A. P.D. who responded could get anything close to a headshot any of the time while the perps (read "felons" for all the newspeak folks) were standing out front shooting random s**t, shooting at helicopters, shooting at stores across the street, ect.

I have a little money-making proposition for you. You favor the iron-sighted Beretta, right? Let's go set up an IPSC target on a bobber at, what would you say was a good average for that dustup? 35 yards? We should also set the bobber up to allow a certain amount of random lateral movement. We'll let you load up ten 15 round magazines, and then set it in motion. Then you can open up. For every hit you make in the A-zone of the target's noggin, you'd get a ten dollar bill. For every miss, you'd give me a dollar. Who do you think would come out ahead?

[Old NFO]

We'll let you load up ten 15 round magazines, and then set it in motion. Then you can open up. For every hit you make in the A-zone of the target's noggin, you'd get a ten dollar bill. For every miss, you'd give me a dollar. Who do you think would come out ahead?

Lets be fair- Give him the same capacity the officers had at the scene- 3 mags total, a random paint ball gun firing from down range back at the line, and I'll pitch in $10 per hit/get $1 miss too! Why you could even let him shoot from behind a barricade :rolleyes:

[DarkKnight01]

blah blah blah :barf: im not going to debate with you all..... i just wanna know where i can find the video ????? :D

[Chiram2003]

Wow, so little known that the robbers didn't even know they were military trained! The late Mr. Matasareanu, 30, was born in Romania and grew up partly in Altadena. He turned to computers because he was teased for being chubby. After graduating from DeVry Institute of Technology in Los Angeles, he operated his own business, working as a computer technician and software designer, his mother, Valerie Nicolescu, told reporters. - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1211/index2.html Chiram, I think you are confused with the bandits who shot it out with the FBI in 1986. Platt being the one who used military tactics on the unsuspecting FBI agents and advanced on their position when he basically was in a losing position in the fight. This completely took the agents by surprise.

I stand corrected. Like I said, I wasn't sure. :)

[GLK]

Tamara wrote;
I have a little money-making proposition for you. You favor the iron-sighted Beretta, right? Let's go set up an IPSC target on a bobber at, what would you say was a good average for that dustup? 35 yards? We should also set the bobber up to allow a certain amount of random lateral movement. We'll let you load up ten 15 round magazines, and then set it in motion. Then you can open up. For every hit you make in the A-zone of the target's noggin, you'd get a ten dollar bill. For every miss, you'd give me a dollar. Who do you think would come out ahead?"

And don't forget to have a volley of full auto 30 cal indiscriminately sprayed in his direction every so often while he tries to fire at the bobbing head bad guy target. if I were a betting man I would have to side with Tamara's odds on winning the bet. As far as second guessing and monday morning quarterbacking the LAPD and SO, I won't even try to talk the talk til I've walked the walk. Honestly I don't see my cowardly butt being very impressive when the full auto starts zipping overhead.

[Erick Gelhaus]

There are commercial copies of the video for sale. Generally, least the version I have does, they show a bunch news footage. A&E has a very well done special on the event.

For those in the business, contact the Training Unit at LAPD's academy - through channels - or Cal POST to get the training tape that was done.

The officers that responded did a phenominal job, under the limitations they were forced to work around. 9mm rounds won't defeat soft body armor; 00Buck only, no slugs, for their shotguns; a patrol rifle / carbine program? - NOT! Some of those issues have been rectified.

Erick

[gvortec53]

I would like to point out to those speculating about an engines steel content. 99% of Caterpillar,Detroit,Cummins,Chevrolet,Pontiac,Cadillac an every other american made engine are cast iron not steel. That being said, cast iron at operating temperature (190 to 220 degrees average) will crack quite easily. Hell I know for a FACT a .357 delivered to the thin part of the webbing in the main bearing area of a small block chevy will crack the webbing. That being said an engine can run for a long time with a cracked block provided they dont run the hell out of it an its not cracked in a critical area such as the cam boss or the front water jacket. Just food for thought. If you dont beleive cast iron will crack, get a cast iron pan an put it on the stove an cook biscuits in it then promptly drop it on a tile floor an watch it shatter like glass.

[Cowled_Wolfe]

If we want to get into engine specifics... Think of all the hoses/wires surrounding the engine. I'm sure those would kill the engine long before the big metal parts would...

[Danindetroit]

So then the armored vehicle, was shot, and it's engine was disabled, from the beginning of the firefight. Ok. I did not know this. Someone said it was able to move around. I guess it could have been pushed.

[Full Metal Jacket]

Just wondering, if one of the cops had a .357 magnum revolver with 125 grain FMJ ammo, would that be enough to pierce the armor the BG's were wearing? Or at least break bones?

[PsychoSword]

@ISP2605
I'm not paid to "serve and protect", but I do know which end the bullet comes out of and where on the target my guns shoot. Must be nice being a cop, everytime you screw up there's thousands of people out there willing to come up with every excuse in the book for you. :barf:

@Tamara
No, I don't favor the Beretta. 35 yards? That should be difficult seeing as I normally practice at 30. You're telling me you couldn't make a single headshot on a silhouette target? Do I also get a 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buck? I didn't know that they were running back and forth, sure didn't look like it. Most of the time they seemed to be walking around/standing/shooting helicopters/digging things out of their trunk..

@Old NFO
The police had more than 3 mags of ammo at the scene. :rolleyes:

@FMJ
I don't remember what armor they were wearing, but it's doubtful unless there was a problem with the vest or it hit a seam. If they were donning typical level II or IIa then an FN 5.7 should have done it. A mildly loaded S&B FMJ out of a CZ-52 or TT-33 would have done the job even better.

[ISP2605]

"@ISP2605
I'm not paid to "serve and protect", but I do know which end the bullet comes out of and where on the target my guns shoot. Must be nice being a cop, everytime you screw up there's thousands of people out there willing to come up with every excuse in the book for you. "

So tell us what it's like being in a shootout where rds are coming your way. I, like others on here, would like to know your experiences of returning fire while under fire, and just how easy it is. :rolleyes:
Some people play video games so much they actually believe they're real. :D

[PsychoSword]

3 tours in 'nam.

What seems to be your obsession with video games?

You want to be non-judgemental towards the police, but judgemental towards a total stranger on the internet. What a fraud.

[ISP2605]

"3 tours in 'nam."

HARHARHARHAR!!!
And your profile says:
"Birthday:
August 31, 1979 "
That puts you born about 5 yrs after VN. Were you there as a tourist?
or maybe this post? You remember typing this:
"I hear ya. I'm at the point where I can't afford school anymore and the jobs around here don't pay unless you're a LEO, doctor, in real estate or know programming... Bout ready to break down and join LE or the Army cuz I don't really wanna be a firefighter..."
Now who's a fraud?
You can't pull the BS. Those who've been under fire know, and your posts show you haven't.
So again, tell us all what it's like to be under fire, and return fire. Tell us all how easy it is.
What a phony! Another internet commando.
You owe all us Vets an apology, if you've got the guts to admit it.

[PsychoSword]

Thick As A Brick

[Tamara]

Lights out.