Anyone from OHIO? A question.

[Derius_T]

I really don't know about other sates, but the Ohio Law states that a firearm must be in 'PLAIN SIGHT' while in a motor vehicle, but does not explain in any way what plain sight is in SPECIFIC terms. It also states it is not legal to let someone see your weapon, EXCEPT in a vehicle, where the 'plain sight' thing comes into play. Does anyone have any clear ideas on this? In winter I carry in a shoulder rig, and when I get in the car, open my jacket or shirt to expose the weapon as best as possible. Is this good enough? Often I find my shirt or jacket falling back over the weapon without my knowledge. And I can't take the rig off, because the law states the weapon must be securely holstered, on your person, in plain sight, OR locked in a case, glove box, ect.

This situation is VERY frustrating..... :mad:

Any suggestions? (besides another holster option) :p

[Brian D.]

Just try to keep the jacket/shirt tucked behind the rig as best as possible, or take said jacket off after you get in the vehicle, if it doesn't attract unwanted bystander concern.
The other thing sounds like it's coming from "Mr. Obvious", but....obey all the traffic laws and you may never get pulled over!

[Shamus]

Generally "Plain Sight" would be just that. If any LEO walks up to your drivers side window and can't see your firearm then your breaking the law.

At least thats how my local Sheriff, PD and OHP has stated they view the law.

But I suppose, due to the vagueness of the law as written. Anyone can and probably is breaking the law according to someone in LE.

I spent the time and checked with LE in my area to get a concensus on this and the above was my answer. Your response's may vary. At least until Ohio changes the wording.

[Pharley]

Plain sight is definitely vague.
Just like said above, keep it uncovered. If I wear an IWB RH holster, I take it out and clip it on the exterior of my left side. If ankle holster, I pull up my pants leg. Otherwise you are good.
I think the importance lies on having your hands on the steering wheel and immediately announcing you are carrying legally. I have read about many Ohio encounters with LE on GlockTalk, and most everyone has good things to say about their encounters. Hoepfully time will mend this bill.

[SmokinTom]

What Ohio did was pass a law stateing you could carry a concealed firearm as long as you left it at home.

[John Ringo]

I can help a little with this because I am an Ohio CCW.

The Ohio law was left "vague" for many reasons. I won't get into a long legal ramble here because I am not a lawyer. So I will spare you all of my personal opinion:-)

The phrase "in plain sight" was never clearly defined here in Ohio. It is still in the process of being defined. This interpretation may in fact differ from officer to officer during traffic stops. It is my understanding that the firearm can be in a holster (attached to your body) so long as the holster is visible to a police officer as he looks into your vehicle during a traffic stop. But it cannot be in a holster sitting on the passenger's seat.

[Ohio Annie]

is only PART of the law. The gun must be carried on your "person's person." It can't be on the seat. The very best way to carry in a car is in a fanny pack on your belly with a luggage lock on the zipper. If you are stopped, pull over, roll down your window, shut off your engine, put both hands on the steering wheel and tell the policeman you have a CCL (he will know that already from your license plate) and that it is locked in the fanny pack in front of your belly in plain sight and what should you do.

[mvpel]

From what I've read, some cops will haul you in because the pistol itself is concealed inside the fanny pack, rather than being "in plain sight."

[Denied]

Let me give you my slant on this subject, first of all the Ohio Supreme Court will eventually answer what "In plain site" is. As a retired Ohio LEO, if I get stopped, I carry on my strong (right) side and have a console which would make it impossible to see my side arm from outside the vehicle, I would turn toward the door, make sure the weapon was not behind any clothing, keep both hand on the wheel, roll down the window and make sure to tell the officer that I am armed. You have done all possible to avoid a problem and right now the officers are as uncertain regarding the wording in the law as any of us.
Dean

[John Ringo]

Concealed Carry is obviously a new thing here in Ohio. As you can see from looking at some of the other state's CCW laws they greatly differ. The Mid-West, for example, is a little more lax than say the East Coast.

Ohio is quite diverse as well. For example, if you live out in Harrison County (around Piedmont Lake) you will find mostly a rural population that carries weapons all the time. They always did. Trust me:-) The Harrison County Sheriff is pretty easy going about it because it is a rural county for the most part with a lot of people who hunt. The same thing for Jefferson County despite being less rural. Sheriff Abdalla doesn't have any problem with it. Therefore the Jefferson & Harrison County police departments are going to be easy going about it.

However, some cities like Columbus and Toledo where not exactly in favor of citizens carrying firearms even though they had to accept the new law. The State Highway Patrol was against it as well. Therefore, if you get pulled over by one of these LEOs then you should expect them to be a little rigid with you. They might even take your weapon from you and have you pick it up at the station at a later time. This had happened.

Ohio did not come out of the gates by specifying every detail of the CCW law mostly because the legislature wanted to see where they were going to need to be more specific. Most of the "Darwin Award" winners here in Ohio will unfortunately make the legislature define it for the rest of us. Here in Ohio there has already been a few "brain-dead" people get busted carrying in Franklin County government buildings, liquer establishments, and a number of other banned places. The Franklin County Sheriff's office arrested four people the first week because they came to the Sheriff's office to apply for their CCW carrying concealed weapons. Go figure.

My strong advice here in Ohio would be to "tread lightly" for the most part until some of the terms of the CCW law has been worked out. Don't be a scape goat. Some people I know carry all over the place for no good reason other than to carry. My prediction will be that they will in time be the legal statistics that you read about in the paper.

Sorry if I got off-topic on this. I am not trying to act like a know-it-all. I am just emphasizing to be cautious about where and how you carry until the Ohio legislature works some of the "kinks" out of concealed carry. Some police officers might not have a sense of humor if they pull someone over who is strapped with a .45 on their side regardless of the law. Be careful out there.

[Dwight55]

Living in central Ohio and having two LEOs as my CCW instructors doesn't help one bit, . . . it is still vague.

I follow the aforementioned advice: keep the hands on the steering wheel, inform LEO immediately, make sure weapon is as open as possible considering the carry means. This was stressed as the most important point of all anyway.

If in the shoulder rig (under left arm), I simply pull my outer garment back behind me by rolling it to the left.

If on the right hip (strong side), I simply pull the outer garment up behind the grip so it is visible.

One thing totally unpredictable in my area is which side the LEO will come up on, especially if it is a highway patrolman. Sometimes driver, . . . sometimes passenger, . . . just depends on the cycle of the moon or something.

Not being a lawyer, I cannot vouch for the information, but I read sometime back that I think in Pa, . . . a driver was arrested for a concealed weapon. When the defense asked the officer how he knew the weapon was in the vehicle, his answer was that he could see the butt end of the grip. The defense counsel moved for dismissal of all charges because the testimony of the arresting officer was that the weapon was enough in plain sight to be indentified as a weapon. The judge dismissed all charges and if I remember correctly, . . . kinda tongue lashed the LEO and the DA. May not be perfect, but sounds like a good bit of argument for our cause if one should need it.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Derius_T]

Its just a really sticky area. Most of the LEO's I know have no problem, but most of the Highway Patrol in my area are really bent about it and giving people tons of grief.

Its just annoying really. I mean, I'm a leftie, so my shoulder rig is under my right arm. I try to keep clothing swept back off the weapon, but it inevitably falls back over and obscures the weapon. And the real dilema is that if you get pulled over, and notice your weapon is covered again, and go to move your clothes out of the way, it could be taken as reaching near your weapon, which in OHIO is a FELONY even to come in accidental contact, or imagined attempted contact with your weapon during a stop.

I mean, I really want to do all I can to comply with the LAW. I do not want any type of misunderstanding. But it seems they make laws this vauge on purpose so that it will discourage people from carrying because of all the hassle involved.... :mad:

[Vanguard.45]

If the Ohio law says that your weapon must be in "plain sight" or "plain view", then obviously they didn't have a legal expert writing the law.

The term "plain view" legally refers to any place a law enforcement/ government official has the legal right to look. For instance, if a search warrant is being served on a house, and a bag of cocaine is found in a drawer that the officer/ agent had a legal right to open, then the bag is said to have been found in "plain sight".

This term is often mistaken for "open view" which refers to objects exposed to passers-by or to the public at large. For instance, something lying out on your car seat and spotted by an officer is said to be in "open view".

So, if you are wearing your shoulder holster in your vehicle and an officer, believing that you are armed, decides to ask you to step out of the vehicle and conduct a Terry Frisk for weapons, then he will discover your weapon in "plain view" and you will have complied with the law.

How do you like them apples?
Vanguard.45

P.S. And I do agree with the whole "hands on the steering wheel, be honest with the officer" thing. It is the best way to conduct your business. My advice is for when you meet that 1 in a 1000 a$$hole and you need a legal defense.

[Z_Infidel]

quote:
"It also states it is not legal to let someone see your weapon, EXCEPT in a vehicle, where the 'plain sight' thing comes into play."

As far as I know, open carry is legal in Ohio. It is probably a risky thing to do in many areas and I'm not saying it's a good idea to do it in those places, but I believe the basic right has been upheld by Ohio courts. Did I read your statement wrong?

[Derius_T]

Well...."technically" open carry is legal in Ohio.....BUT....carry your gun open on your side through your local shopping center or some other high traffic area, and watch how quick you get arrested. :barf:

Inciting a riot, inducing panic....ect. ect. comes to mind.....

even tho its SUPPOSED to be legal in OHIO, just try it once, then leave us a post about your jailtime, hassle, legal battle, ect. :eek:

[Ohio Annie]

I said the best way to carry in a car is in a fanny pack with a luggage LOCK. That puts it in the "locked container " category but still easily accessible. I got this info from my CCW instructor who is a certified trainer of trainers and he got his info. from the head of the Ohio Highway Patrol which is the department which causes the big problem in terms of people having problems with this law as the OHP is VERY anti-concealed carry.

The instructor also pointed out that Master makes a certain luggage lock which has a secret catch to open it quickly in an emergency if you know the secret. I simply have a regular Master luggage lock with the first two numbers set.

The "in plain sight" rule only applies if the gun is not in a locked container. The instructor was adamant about not having your gun in a holster which is blocked from view by a console or other object. Most law enforcement people in this state will approach you from the passenger side of the vehicle.

The Ohio law really isn't as vague as people think/want it to be.

[Ohio Annie]

Open carry is Ohio is no longer legal because concealed carry is legal and if you carry openly now you are brandishing a firearm. :rolleyes:

[Rodger_p]

Actually open carry is still legal. There is no mention in the Ohio law about brandishing. Although, as has already been mentioned you probably would be subject to "enciting panic" or some such nonsense. Of course this doesn't apply to having a firearm in a vehicle only walking down the street, etc.

[Brian D.]

OA, not to quibble but I don't believe open carry was made illegal by our CCW law. However, personally don't have any interest in finding out how the local gendarmes feel about that old catchall "disturbing the peace/inducing panic" charge.

[Ohio Annie]

from Jim Petro:

Sir,

There is no truth to the statement that having a concealed weapons license means you have forfeited the ability to carry openly. No one in the attorney general's office should have or would give such advice.

Mark Gribben
Director of Constituent Services
Office of Attorney General Jim Petro

However, *Ohio Annie here*, so many municipalities have ordinances against guns, open carry is VERY inadvisable. Even a nothing place like Grove City doesn't allow it.

[John Ringo]

I have spoken with Mark. He is a nice guy.

Open carry is still legal in Ohio. Of course, you are not allowed to go walking through a shopping mall with a Glock on your hip. There are rules that apply to open carry just as they do with concealed carry. For example, you are NOT allowed to concealed carry while hunting. Only one firearm is allowed per hunter. Game wardens WILL check you.

Regardless of what anyone tells you, whether they be a State Highway Patrol Captain or the head of a gun club that teaches CCW. The law is still being defined. That means that it can change abruptly. I would not carry a firearm on you while in an automobile period. I would lock it in the glove box or go out and get a locking case that fits in the consoul.

Ohio lawyers are going to make a bundle off of these cases. Any time you carry a concealed weapon you are opening yourself up to tons of liability. Of course personal safety is paramount; however, people are going to have to be extremely careful considering the cost of retaining a lawyer. One simple incident could drive an average person into financial ruin.

[Ohio Annie]

...about the liability issues. The first hour of my CCL class consisted of the instructor YELLING at us about what WILL happen if we ever draw on/shoot at/maim/kill someone. He has been an expert witness in many court cases, both for civilians and police, including the famous case in NY where the foreign guy drew a wallet in the dark after not obeying orders to come forward because he didn't understand English and was shot by police. Then we had a smoking break and a couple of people looked like they wanted to leave right there. The only reason I considered CC for myself is that I am my elderly mother's sole caregiver and I had trouble with a threat from a co-worker once (I work at a different place now) and am sometimes treated like a target because I am a woman alone. I guess they would have to let Mom stay in jail with me! Do modern jails have mother-in-law suites? :rolleyes:

I'm glad I had the instructor I did, so many people think/wish killing a bad guy is easy. I am not really sure what I would do in that situation and our instructor told us of when he was a rookie cop and was once taken hostage by an armed teenager cuz he froze. Made me feel a little better about my own ambivalence. :eek:

I'm also glad he yelled at us and harassed us like in boot camp cuz when the live fire part came, we were all excited and it made it more stressful. He had us practice some CQB techniques besides just plain target shooting. For the record, he said I shot well even though he hated my snubby and said nobody can shoot well with one! :)

I intend someday to get a semiauto and take his advanced course to get qualified with that gun too. :D

[DarkKnight01]

bleh if i lived in Ohio i would move as soon as i could... too much BS in that state... thats my advice =) move to Texas =) Texans love guns... carry a shotgun in your back seat no one cares =) concealed carry is by far not frowned upon... seems the cops in Ohio are the kinda guys that think their the only ones allowed to have a gun... and hide behind their badge and gun... just the kinda cops i hate. MOVE get out of that crappy state !!

[Ohio Annie]

There is just no way I could ever move to a place like Texas. My life doesn't revolve around guns, they are tools for me to hunt and protect myself but I have other interests. I would definitely not fit into the culture of Texas. To say nothing about not being able to duplicate the kind of job I have here.

[DarkKnight01]

hmm have you been to texas? the culture in texas varies greatly on where you are... but the laws never change... it really is a great place.. =)

and speaking of culture what kind of culture is there in Ohio? ive only driven thru it so i dont know too much about it, only heard bits and pieces as i have an uncle that lives there.

[Ohio Annie]

Let it be sufficient to say that I need to be where I am.

[DarkKnight01]

hehe cant convince everyone that texas is the greatest state in the nation... or it would be too crowded =)

[Ohio Annie]

then the scenery would all go away, replaced by strip malls and condominium developments! (eeeuw)

Gotta keep those wide open spaces free.

[DarkKnight01]

exactly =) just the things i hate to see.... but were all dependant on them... quite ironic

[Derius_T]

Ohio stinks as far as anything to do with its legal system in ANY way.
Other than that I guess its just as bad/good as anywhere else you live.

And as far as the CCW goes, the highway patrol are the ones REALLY pushing it. (And the state is so chock full of bleeding heart, whining, liberal maggots, its hard to move) :D

[Ohio Annie]

I was away for a while and didn't respond. I would have to disagree with most of

"Ohio stinks as far as anything to do with its legal system in ANY way.
Other than that I guess its just as bad/good as anywhere else you live.

And as far as the CCW goes, the highway patrol are the ones REALLY pushing it. (And the state is so chock full of bleeding heart, whining, liberal maggots, its hard to move)"

I've lived in 8 different states and they were all different from each other as far as the scope and depth of the legal systems, etc. Ohio is no better or worse than any other state. At least Ohio's laws are more consistent than those in some other places I've been. It does have a problem with being a mainly agricultural state with a few large urban population centers.

All the CCW horror stories I have heard of here have been caused by the highway patrol. Their senior people are very against concealed carry. :confused:

I would disagree about Ohio being "full" of liberals, that has not been my experience at all. In fact when I moved here, to a near suburb of the capital, I was shocked by the amount of sexual harassment I could get just walking down the street. I ignore it but it's very difficult sometimes. That was one of the nice things about northern California, I was never harassed by anybody about anything and people respected my personal space. :)

I like the fact that everywhere you go in the world, things are different yet the same. You get enough variety to make life interesting but the differences aren't so much to make you disoriented! People all the world over have the same needs and desires, more or less. We all have the same DNA!

sequencing mine,

[paddykern]

I live in Michigan and traveled to northern Ohio for an autocross with my Miata. With an IWB holster, bucket seats, center console, seatbelt, race tires in the passenger seat, there is now way I can keep the gun in plain sight. I opted for a plastic gun case with a three rotating combination dials, two set for ahead of time and the other one number away from the opening combination. Silly law!
I had to park away from my racing buddies so I could transfer the gun to my holster without scaring anyone. Also, the more you handle a gun, the bigger chance that you can have a negligent discharge.

[Dwight55]

DarkKnight, . . . we have a common bond: your uncle is in Ohio, . . . my nephew lives in Tx.

My brother lives near Big Spring, . . . home of Big John's barbecue, . . . I've driven the 2 days down/2 days back, . . . thinking of that barbecue. :D :D

While you don't have much to do, . . . how about politiking some for us, get your government folks down there to recognize our CCW. Bad enough to have a lousy one, . . . but then to not be allowed to use it elsewhere :mad:

Anyway, . . . may God bless,
Dwight

[relientk1988]

Lifelong Ohio Resident,

Ohio from what I have seen is a good place to live. I live near dayton in the southwest part so half the people here came from kentucky. The thing about Ohio is the north is liberal (Cleveland, Toledo), and down south(dayton, Athens) we're mostly conservative. Lot's of farm country out here. The reason Cleveland and Toledo are so bad is Michigan keeps rubbing off on them!


Go Bucks,
Ben