what's the difference?

[rugerdude]

I might be taking a martial arts class in the future with my sister and I have no idea what they are.
I can choose between judo, jujitsu, tae-kwon do, kung fu and hap ki do.

Can someone explain the differences between these to me please.

Thanks in advance,
rugerdude

[DarkKnight01]

sure, altho ive not trained in all the ones youve listed i have a pretty good idea what the differences are as ive trained in several styles over the last 19 years

first one Judo - a very nice style actually classified as a "sport" involves many different variations of throws and take downs... not alot of striking kicking n stuff like that, but none the less very much fun to study

second Jujitsu - this style ive not alot of experience or knowledge in, but from what ive seen and read it is an effective style, involving some of what u would learn in judo being throws sweeps etc, but as well as striking - including but not limited to kicks, punches, use of other parts of the body you normally wouldnt think could be harmful.

third tae-kwon-doe - this style i happen to have experience in, i studied it for over 7 years, it involves mostly strikes, involving but not limited to: kicks punches elbow strikes, aerial kicks etc... the style is versatile and flexible... but i find it quite basic, i moved on from this style to bigger and better things at the age of 12...

fourth - kung fu - this is probably one of the most popular styles there is, it is a chinese art quite complex and involves different variations of the style, youve probably heard the term "praying mantis" this is a variation of kung fu, im not sure what exactly their offering, but this style should be reserved for a later time once youve learned some basics. IE how to take a fall, block, counter attack, and most importantly knowing your body.

and lastly hap ki do - this would probably my pick (as it doesnt vary too far from what i currently study - aikido.) it involves several techniques used to disable a person... being from breaking limbs throws dislocating joints and pins to end the fight before it begins (please those that have studied in this style if im wrong feel free to correct me as my knowledge in this style isnt as vast as my aikido experience, but ive heard many say it is very similiar)

all in all my advice would be, start with tae kwon doe for a few months to get the feel for things learn your body : find your balance. learn the basics of the arts and its discipline. then move onto what u wish to persue, personally i would go for the hap ki do class or the kung fu. but thats me, go to the classes and just sit and watch to see if its what your interested in, speak with the instructors and get a feel for them, the teachings can only be as good as the instructor. dont go for some hot head that thinks hes the king of the block or something. studying is not about being tuff, its a self wellness type of exercise, to better ones self, mentally physically and spiritually.

[rugerdude]

Would a specific body type or strength be better for a certain style? I'm mostly upper-body strength, would this help me in one syle or another?
I like judo based on the description.

[madmurdoc]

Judo is tranlated "the gentle way," if I am remembering right. It uses primarily throws, chokes, arm bars, and other grappling type techniques. In Judo, closer is better. You don't need space for a strike or kick. For the throwing techniques generally smaller is better because of a lower center of gravity. A strong grip is helpful but is easily developed. Most motions are designed to use an opponent's weight or momentum against him, which means less muscle is needed when moves are executed.

I was in Judo for about a year in junior high, Jujitsu is what I would like to learn if I get the opportunity to take it up.

[Danindetroit]

Aikido is the martial art that Steven Segal uses. It is a good martial arts but I have to wonder how long it would take to master a lot of the holds he uses. If you really watch you see he usually waits for an attack, does not defeat it straight on , but rather pulls your punching arm ,and strikes it to put it in a vulnerable position then puts a hold on a joint. I hope I desribe it correctly DarkKnight. You then use all your strength on a small joint. The easiest thing is if somebody puts their finger in your face grab it and bend it backwards they will go to their knees, while doing this, I would twist to the side so they don't strike your privates, you can just lift your leg to block most strikes.

Tao of jeet kune do is the book that bruce lee wrote about his fighting method, it is a method of fighting, I think as opposed to a style. The one thing about eastern martial arts is some of the moves are based on fighting that was used a long time ago. They use ridgid patterns of strikes, kicks,and grappling. Bruce Lee believed in the fact that every threat is different, so every attack, and defense is different, I believe, I have not read it in a long time. I guess he was trained in Kung Fu, or Gung FU, I think all eastern martial arts are offshoots of these martial arts, they combine kicks strike hold, almost anything you want.

As I understand it Tae kwon do is a korean martial arts, I studied Kenpo, which is a korean city, and a martial arts. I though people who talked about tae-won-do talked about a lot of kicks. The Kenpo I sudied was very modernistic, either using a traditional boxing stance, or a side stance. I was taught Front kicks, and side kicks, I also learned I could kick with decent power low. Learned the poses, and positions, but liked to spar more than do the "moves". Learned more about my weaknesses with sparring and what to avoid to get clobbered. I am a firm believer that power comes from the legs, through the midsection to the upper body. I learned the a proper side kick was executed byshift weight from kicking foot to non-kicking foot, lifting knee, and at the last moment pointing the foot at target, and pivoting on weight bearing foot to add power to your strike. You sound like a good person. If you can watch a little Ultimate fighting, and or pride. These are contestes that it hink the only rules are that no eye gouging, or biting, and no kicking while the opponent is down, in UFC, you can kick a downed opponent in Pride I believe. These contests are usually very interesting, they have more groundwork that an actual "street" fight, because people will bite you to stay alive. It stresses the variety of fighting stlyes, and body styles, Tito Ortiz is a guy who when I weight lifted, I would have said, trained for the beach, where Chuck Liddel is probably just a naturally strong person. Some of the older UFC's are probably on video, get one with Tank Abbot. The fighters within the last 2 years are highly trained, physically and in their art. At the start of UFC it was almost a "toughman contest" with guys who had almost no skill. Try to do some ab work, when you get the "wind knocked out of you" you will know why. Search the internet, they should have the major martial arts foundations. Good luck :D

[John Ringo]

I am a 2nd degree black in Tang Soo Do under the old Chuck Norris system. It was originally called the United Fighting Arts Federation (UFAF).

TSD and TKD are basically the same thing (mostly feet). Akido is more throwing and use of pressure points.

[Danindetroit]

I know chuck was a world champion martial artist. Did he train with Bruce Lee, or did they just talk shop, or was Chuck converted to Bruce Lee's method of martial arts. As I understand Steven Segal is no slouch, I believe his is the only american born person to have an Akido Studio in Japan.

It seems Easier to learn to slip a punch, and counter punch that do those holds, I guess that is why they are refered to as Disciplines :) .

[John Ringo]

Chuck Norris picked-up martial arts when he was in the Army in Korea. He came back here and started a chain of schools with his brother Aaron. The chain has been around since the 1970s. I started in 1985 and trained until about 1995. Got kinda burned out on the whole thing after a while.

No affiliation between Norris and Lee that I know of other than a movie back in the 80s. Same thing with Caradine.

[rugerdude]

Would boxing be a good self defense style for a guy with a lot of upper body strength? Seems kinda limited though.

[DT Guy]

A good boxer is generally a very tough opponent. Many karate-ka have underestimated boxers at some expense to their own well-being.

We don't realize it since we live in America, but boxing and greco-roman wrestling ARE martial ("war-like") arts...


Larry

[John Ringo]

Yes. Boxing is great. I highly recommend it. The martial arts often limits people because they fall too dependant on their feet and never use their hands. Using the feet is good, but often over-rated in a street fight.

Nobody in a street fight is going to stand there and let someone kick them. Most experienced fighters are going to see someone's foot come off the ground and they are going to close the distance and get up close & personal. That is where good boxing skills are going to come in handy. Having some wrestling skills is also important.

Most street fights goto the ground.

[DarkKnight01]

wow lots of great replies here =)

and yes Danindetroit, thats correct Steven Seagal studies aikido, my understanding and as far as rumor has it he holds a 9th or 10th don ranking... which is 9th or 10th degree black belt... and that was 5-6 years ago, by now he could have tested for another ranking, but at that point its just politcal. pretty insane.. to have that much understanding id give up parts of my anatomy.. and Aikido is all about letting the opponent make the mistake and using their momentum against them, combined with the inner force of Ki, known as Chi in the chinese arts, hence the style Tai Chi, somewhat similar to aikido but much more relaxed and slow moving during training. and in a short description it is beautiful to watch it properly executed.

and no Chuck never trained with Bruce... altho at one time he thought he could whip Bruce... he lost.... very quickly. as going head to head with the greatest martial artist that there ever was and ever will be would just be stupid. no disrespect to chuck hes very talented, and i think after he realized that bruce wad superior he may have then trained a bit and as someone else stated "talked shop". but i dont think anyone can compare to Bruce... a close match might be Billy Blanks... hes one bad mofo.. but id still put my money on bruce.. he was SO damn fast it was amazing.. where as billy is built like a brick outhouse.. very fast and strong but big compared to bruce, and bruce didnt need crude matter for strength he had other sources.

and yes rugerdude boxing can be alot of fun ive trained in it a bit as well, but i look at it more as exercise, its great to train your speed and crude matter of muscle strength, which is very important to stay healthy and if u have to lift heavy stuff =) but if you choose to train Judo, you will become familiar with a strength far greater than all the weight lifting in the world can bring you, this is the inner strength known as Ki, as i mentioned above, its an inner force thats in all living things and learning to expand this energy and use it properly is a great power. to make a long story short im 6'2 and weigh about 210lbs... ive been thrown over 10 feet by women in training that are 5'2 and weigh 115lbs... do u think they could do this with muscles?.... not a chance.

rugerdude try out some different styles, as i mentioned before go to the dojo and watch the class, see how they are speak with the instructor(s) if you arent comfortable with your sensei you will never learn all that u can. my aikido sensei is probably one of the greatest men ive ever known, always very polite with a big smile on his face. altho he is known from time to time to get this red glow in his eye and people start hitting the mat. he likes realism heh, and going into that many dojo's vary greatly in the same styles, some are more on a training level everything very slow and gradual. others are more real life based with near full speed strikes and reactions. altho generally this is reserved for the advanced students, at our dojo we have beginner and advanced, u have to go thru beginners classes for at least a year and then its up to sensei if he feels your ready to move on.

look into all that u can, research it online, go to the dojo and speak to the instructor and the students, find out what u want to study, and go for it =)

John Ringo: actually you are right to an extent, but it varies from person to person, some people are VERY fast with their feet, im pretty good but not as quick as i am with my hands, but also ive never seen a martial arts style that only involved feet, the closest exception would be Savate : a french kickboxing style, but even then u learn to use your hands as well, virtually all styles teach you how to use your whole body, not just your hands or your feet. but all together youd be surprised how quickly a well trained martial artists foot can go from the ground to someones nose... i used to compete in martial arts and ive knocked out several people with aerial kicks... tho not as quickly executed as a punch, but alot more force involved.. i guess what im trying to say is dont think the arts are limited to just the use of feet, as that is very far from the truth, aikido involves almost no kicks. its all upper body. going back to steven seagal even in his movies he rarely uses his feet for anything more than a kick to the mid section, ive never seen him go for a head kick, as you are correct it takes more time to get your foot from the ground to someones face. but if the opening is there and perhaps u have them stunned from a jab to the nose, then u have more than enuf time to land a few kicks to the head. this has been my experience.

[claude783]

studied Shotokan, and KaKush-ryu.

Shototkan is a basic fighting style. Using kicks, punches, but interstingly, it also has "some" judo in it.

I would recommend that you find a Mu Thai fighting...kick boxing. It will give you a good basic fighting style, and then you can study other styles if you want.

You should be able to pick up kick boxing in 2 years. As for the other styles, it would take several years to learn them...After 6-9 months of kick boxing, you should be able to hold your own.

Think of the martial arts as a pyramid. At the base are all of the styles. By the time you attain the top of the pyramid, no matter what style, you pretty well know all of the fighting techinques.

As for the KaKush, it was a stick fighting I studied while I was in Japan. Use a walking stick. Very effective, only had to use it twice in my life. Once to break a man's ankle, and the second time when a guy reached into his coat and say he was "going to blow me away". A good smack with the stick across the elbow and he was screaming and whimpering, he also couldn't remove his arm from the jacket, so don't know if he had "something" there or was just bluffing!

[rugerdude]

Do you do ANY kicks or punches in judo or is it just throws and holds? BTW what do the Marines use? Isn't it a combination of a bunch of different fighting styles?

[DarkKnight01]

yes there is some strikes involved, but mainly its to distract the attacker so u can get them into a hold or throw, like striking the solar plexus (an area on the abdomen) to weaken their core to make them easier to manipulate..

as far as what the USMC uses for defence im not really sure..

[John Ringo]

My experience in having trained in TSD and TKD the better part of my life was that many students fall too dependant on their feet and do not properly utilize their hands. This is primarily how you can distinguish an experienced fighter versus a novice fighter in the ring. The novices will get into the ring at tournaments and start trying to kick their opponents head off with brute force while using very little hands or combinations.

I complimented my Martial Arts training by getting into Collegiate Boxing (Mid-Atlantic Conference) back in the early 1990s when I was in school. This really taught me to effectively use my hands. It mostly taught me how to block under pressue. Boxing is a different animal. Anyone who has ever stepped into the boxing ring knows how exhausting it can be within a minute or two of trading punches. Learning to block under fatigue and pressue is an invaluable skill.

I would not exactly classify Bruce Lee as the greatest Martial Artist of all time. He was a movie star. He was not a professional fighter. I am sure that Billy Blanks would have no problem cleaning the floor with Bruce Lee in a street fight. Most of what Martial Artists do in movies (like flying reverse crescent kicks and spinning back flips) would be completely useless in a street fight.

Well...this is getting way off topic. I would just suggest to find a good Martial Arts school, enjoy the training, learn everything you can, and later down the line mix things up with some boxing, wrestling, or ever some other styles. But try to master one thing before you try to take on too much.

[DarkKnight01]

John Ringo: actually i wouldnt classify Bruce Lee as just being a movie star... as he studied for many years before ever becoming involved in film production.. and for that matter Billy Blanks has been in a handful of movies himself... as well as several other talented martial artists... of course we know Chuck Norris, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Stevel Segal, and several others that arent currently coming to mind. so are u saying that none of these people have any real talent and are just actors whom use special effects to achieve these feats? sorry bud but i beg to differ.. and yes this is wandering off topic some, but i need stress the point of Bruce Lee's legacy as he did alot for the world of martial arts.. he was somewhat responsible for bringing the notion of martial arts to the west. others opinions may vary. but mine is that he is the greatest there ever was and probably ever will be. =)

[John Ringo]

Yeah Bruce is good....I don't want to downplay that one:-)

Good chatting with you guys on this...martial arts is always interesting !!!

[Danindetroit]

He won the a title in '58 I believe, but did not like the format of a "touch being counted as a point. So he never competed, again. He wanted a more full contact system I think. Maybe UFC would be his Forte'. Brue Lee was a very small man. I think 140lbs. Most of the guys would be out of his weight class, but they would be good fights. He was a great martial arts theorist, and challenged the notions of conventional martial arts. I think his jeet Kune do is the way of the relaxed fist? I thought he advocated, having a had ready to block, grab, or punch, and that the had should be clenched at the last second. His footwork is akin to a traditional boxing stance.

[DarkKnight01]

im not sure exactly where he applied this theory but yes, the relaxed fist is a proven theory.... at least from what my studies have shown

whether it was in Jeet Kune Do or in "Lee" itsself..

[Ninjato]

Martial arts is interesting. It really doesn't matter where you start or what system you choose. You will ultimately gravitate to what feels best for you. Preferences of styles change as your growth in the arts mature.

What works for one person does not necessarily mean that it will work for you.

My recommendation is Tae Kwon Do as a basis. It will give you time to develop fundamental control of your body. Trust me, controling your body is a lot harder than you think. Chinese martial arts systems are rooted in a lot of concepts and philosophy. It is best to pursue these systems at a more advanced skill level.

As for self defense, a few years of TKD will do you more benefit for the present time. Kung Fu disciplines require a long time before the techniques can be used effectively and can actually be detrimental in a self defense situation if not used correctly.

Stay away from "fad" styles....whatever is the popular style in UFC or stuff like Krav Maga. A few years back it was Jiu Jitsu.

To summarize:

It really doesn't matter what self defense system you choose. Don't count on it working w/ only a few years training at 2x/wk training regimen. The Martial Arts is a discipline and when it is taken as a discipline, then it will serve you right, when it is done as a sport, one's skill will be limited. Here's a secret: Efficient martial artists don't memorize a book load of "techniques". The techniques are a result of years of training and contemplating concepts of movement and energetics.

Systems that focus on SPEED, POWER, and STRENGTH, tend to NOT work well for smaller people.

[Ninjato]

. :confused:

[Ninjato]

sorry double post

[Danindetroit]

I must ask what form of spectator martial arts is most like a "street fight"? UFC Is barely 10 years old. Itis finding it's way. How long was football a sport, before the forward pass was first thrown? Boxing since the mid-80's, has changed dramatically with the death of a korean fighter. I am very visually oriented, and seeing something helps me to understand things better, how old is jiu jitsu? Is it older than wrestling, boxing, sumo wrestling. Watch an old tape of 165# Gene Bell a career serviceman, and a worldclass powerlifter has lifted 15 times his own weight, in a powerlifting competition. The best defintion of power is strength with speed. This young man is 14, and might not be able to visit a lot of places, a video store, and he can get a variety of tapes on may martial sports.

Most of the running backs in the NFL are not "big" in the sense of Reggie white, Jerry Ball, Kjb. to say Barry Sanders, at 205# 5' 6' 8" did not have speed, power, strength. Marshall Faulk, Walter peyton. Smaller people are generally very quick.

[John Ringo]

Martial arts training was the best thing that I ever did. It probably kept me out of more fights than anything else. I recommend it to everyone.

[Danindetroit]

John, I just thought that some of the things in Ninjato posts, were a little erroneous.

Systems that focus on SPEED, POWER, and STRENGTH, tend to NOT work well for smaller people.

[Ninjato]

John, I just thought that some of the things in Ninjato posts, were a little erroneous.

I understand that I am a new member here and sometimes that is hard to jump into a group of people who know each other and say something that may not sound "correct". I do speak from experience.

I have been involved in the martial arts for over 33 years. I started when I was 6 yrs old. I have trained in:

Judo
Shorin Ryu
Tae Kwon Do
Northern Shaolin Kung Fu
Currently teach and train in Tai Chi Chuan and Bajichuan.

I have been involved in the internal arts for the last 17 years.

Sorry if I ruined somebody's thread by posting erroneously.

If you do not understand what I meant by the comment of SPEED, POWER, and STRENGTH don't work for smaller people then your martial art training has not reached a high level.

[DarkKnight01]

Ninjato:

i personally found your post to be accurate... i believe i gave very similar advice.. after 33 years im sure you have seen it first hand that size and muscle mass has nothing to do with strength... as i posted above... im about 6'2 and around 200lbs... and have been thrown over 10 feet by very small females... could this have been done with muscle mass? i dont think thats physically possible...

on a side note, where do u teach Tai Chi? its a style ive been interested in for some time, id like to try it out =) what should i look for in a good instructor and dojo in this style?

[Ninjato]

where do u teach Tai Chi? its a style ive been interested in for some time, id like to try it out =) what should i look for in a good instructor and dojo in this style?

DK: I teach Tai Chi in Philadelphia, PA. You can check out my school at www.baztaichi.com

As far as instruction, it is good to find a Tai Chi school that teaches the martial aspects. Tai Chi has been mis-represented by the health/hippie/alternative life groupies.

It is good to start with YANG style Tai Chi then expand your research into the other Tai Chi styles or internal styles.

I have found Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming 's book ADVANCED TAI CHI VOL2 is a very good translation/interpretation of the concepts of Tai Chi.

Most importantly, the internal Chinese martial arts are based on concepts and not "techniques". The techniques will offer themselves to you if/when the principles of the art are adhered to.

A good Tai Chi school has a thorough PUSH HANDS (tui shou) regimen (not to be confused w/ Wing Chun "sticky hands".

[DarkKnight01]

Ninjato:

great thx for the info =) and doh... wish i lived in philly... i live just outside pittsburgh... youll have to let me know if u ever have a training seminar in the area, id be happy to attend =)

and yes Tai Chi has been misinterpreted over the years, but i dont listen to that crap... i believe in listening to people that actually know what their talking about... where i grew up in MI there was a Tai Chi dojo there.. i never got a chance to train there but knew some of the students quite well, and from their info the instructor was nothing short of wonderful... he explained the concepts very well and presented them just as well. unfortunately i never got a chance to train there as i moved shortly after finding it, all in all its a style ive been interested in for some time

and great website =) and ive written down the name of the book u recommended and ill pick it up when i find it

thx for the info.

[Danindetroit]

Once again I think they are disciplines, and are hard to master, and consider myself a rank, amateur who knows some things. I have been to to places where a "black belt" was sparring. and everytime he closed with his partner, he turned his head away. I walked out. I have been lucky to have good periphal vision, and decent observational skills. When a situation goes bad I do alright, from a car doing doughnuts on the freeway ahead of me because of ice, and just easing off the gas while it passes right in front of me, and not slamming on the bakes, to this guy has been "eyeing" my friend talking to a girl, and is now coming over, maybe we should move a little. You didn't ruin a thread you added some things. I guess i have always had the analogy with martial arts, and especially most eastern martial arts if a bull is charging do you stand your ground and stop it, or step to the side. I prefer to step to the side. I had a rough night last night. I guess Muay Thai could be considered a Power to Power martial arts a leg kick is a nice way to close the gap, your opinion is always welcome with me. I don't care about your # of posts, or when you joined you bring your experence and opinion to the table, and yours seems valid to me. :D

Dk, no disrespect, The throw by a very small female, were you moving or just standing still? Watch olympic weightlifting. That is power, with co-ordiantion, and the women throw up some weight. In martial arts getting your opponent to move and then adding to that movement is a great technique. If you do not use weights you are training for power by using fast kicks or punches, a fast punch is powerful. A stong, semi fast punch may have the same power. I have read a book called a scientific approach to powerlifting. It is your nerves that make you powerful, look at football players who are paralyzed, the have big muscle, and no power. Training all your nerves in the muscles to "fire" simultaneously for a punch or to bench is very similar at the neural level. A big muscle is easier to make powerful, but is not always desirable.

I am sure that a small person can use somebody's own momentum against them, and can get a person moving to do it. If I ran at a trained person, and they basicaly grabbed an arm or what ever fell, backwards adding to my momentum, and they planted a foot or two in my gut, they could propel my a distance. Pick me up where i am standing, and throw me no way.

I did not train traditional martial arts for a long time or in a long time. It was quality instruction, with real world stuff, and the saftey equipment was on the whole time. I did not have the chance to train long. I like to lift weights, and it is easier or was easier to find a gym. I think the UFC is close to streetfight, and just like I said close. They can be slugfests, they can go to the ground, and anything in between. It is closer than K-1 where a ref stands you up after going down. I believe they tell a fighting stlye of each fighter, before they enter the ring, and thought that it might help make a decision. I know "Gracie" jiu jitsu was declared the best martial arts after one of the brother won, but now, most guys have a very diverse background, from olympic wrestlers, to all sorts of martial arts. I believe this kid wants to be able to "stun" not hurt a bulley,etc, and run to get help.

Martial arts is interesting. It really doesn't matter where you start or what system you choose. You will ultimately gravitate to what feels best for you. Preferences of styles change as your growth in the arts mature.

My recommendation is Tae Kwon Do as a basis. It will give you time to develop fundamental control of your body. Trust me, controling your body is a lot harder than you think. Chinese martial arts systems are rooted in a lot of concepts and philosophy. It is best to pursue these systems at a more advanced skill level.

That seemed a little contradictary to me.

2 people equal in every way, except one person has more power, speed, strength, I am betting with power, speed, and strength. I guess I interpreted that you meant these things were bad, I think they should be striven for. It just means that you can let a person possibly think they have scared you by getting close, and moving on, when you just saved them pain. Women do have a great capacity to get strong, and fast. They unfortunately think they are going to get "muscular" when most of the time they get toned, and strong. Hitting a heavy bag, hitting the speed bag. I just know with my size and strength, I trained with a guy who was trained for almost 12 years, and when he messed around and started doing back spin quicks at my head, I stayed back, and closed the gap, and grabbed him out of midair and fell on him elbows leading. I also had a decent jab to keep him at distance. What does it all boil down to in my opinion, have enough confidence, in your training, and your body to know, when to just go and when to not go.

[Ninjato]

Danindetroit:

A person can start right away with Kung Fu. Many have been successful. From my experience, I find that it is harder at first to try to use KF techniques at an early stage of training. TKD offers a more practical approach and can be mastered in a shorter period of time.

I trained with a guy who was trained for almost 12 years, and when he messed around and started doing back spin quicks at my head, I stayed back, and closed the gap, and grabbed him out of midair and fell on him elbows leading

Martial art techniques DO NOT work when just 'messin around'. They have to be applied w/ full intent or else it is meaningless.

back spin quicks at my head
That is a mark of TKD. Kicks to the head in a real fight generally don't work. Keep kicks no higher than the hip bones.

When looking TKD and the high TKD kicks, remember that in history, these kicks were developed to kick mounted soldiers. In order to kick at a midsection of a person on a horse, one must be able to kick high or even jump kick. Kicking high has the benefit in training only for strength and speed. The higher and faster you can kick at head level, it is that much easier and faster from the midsection down.

[Danindetroit]

I meant messing around because we usually had a plan for our training, kind of an informal lesson plan that we talked about. That wasn't in it, but we both learned from it, in some of my earlier post in reference to Burce lee he states some of those princples, block a punch with a hand slaping to the offenders fist or forearm throw him off balance, why move your foot to his head. When your fist or elbow is withing a 15". Some of the breaking blows to shoulders I thought were meant to break armor, but may be used to break a clavicle. Like I said I did not get enough formal training.

A lot of blunt weapons are used to prepare rice for eating. And some of the sickle like to harvest it from the fields.

I have never kicked higher than the knee. It don't work for me. I think knowing my weaknesses, had helped me more in actual encouters. I do not go out looking for fights, but I don't let people get bullied, I like to feel that if someone in my family was in trouble somebody would step up. Now how can I have that attitude, and not do the same. Most of the time it is nothing more than asking what is going on, or is there a problem, while one person leaves, and saying to the agressor well he's gone now, gee. But knowing that you are prepared a little means you can do that instead of relying on sucker punching somebody who actually might have ben wronged, or whatever. Everybody goes home. I stopped looking at ohter people when driving, while I drove a truck, I was flipped off for being too slow, backing into a business(which is the correct way in MI because you have the right of way, backing out, traffic has the right of way, and you might not see them) I am worn out hopefully RG has enough to make his choice. :D

[AUG]

I'm sure I will get attacked for this comment but.........

I have been in several and have witnessed many street fights. I am by no means a great street fighter but have kicked the crap out of a black belt (some sort of kung fu) before. OTOH, I got the chit kicked out of me by a @ 150 lb. amatuer boxer once. Everytime this guy connected it felt like getting hit with a brick. He probably would have put me in the hospital if I didn't pepper spray him. He busted me up pretty good anyway.

I have seen many guys that were educated in martial arts get spanked all over the place by brawlers.

The most dominat arts I have seen in street fights are brawling (is that even an art?) and American boxing. I guess the main benefit of American boxing is the fact that those guys are usually in way better shape and way stronger than a martial artist.

One great advantage that seems to almost always have an impact on the outcome is size and strength. Very rarely does the smaller and weaker guy win.

[rugerdude]

Well, I found a place that teaches kickboxing and TKD within a quarter mile of my house. I never knew it existed before. What is kickboxing all about? Is it something I could start out with without much trouble?

Thanks in advance,
rugerdude

[Danindetroit]

The only thing I know about kickboxing was it was a spectator sport. It didn't allow kicks below the belt, or elbows. They had a mandatory amount of kicks thrown in each round, this alway made me think kicking above the waist wasn't the best idea. There was a guy called bad Brad Hefton, heavy weight, non-bodybuilder type who used a jump spinning back kick to his opponents midsection, and tko them. That sport was litterally boxing where you could kick.
Kickboxing might be a term used to just describe a martial arts, that the owner does not want to pay a franchise fee for, or it might mean that you get to spar, realisticly. Sounds like a place to check out, go watch, they probably have group, and individual lessons. 1/4 mile jog should get you warmed up to stretch out before your lessons, if the road is safe. Hope it all works out.

[Ninjato]

It all in POV. A martial artist studies so as NOT to fight. Many times a martial artist will lose because most of the time, his skill is not at a high level. In today's market, a black belt doesn't mean crap. A black belt does not hold the value it once did. The training and rigors one had to go thru to get a black belt are not done in most of today's commercialized schools.

Boxers have the great advantage of being able to take a hit. It is very hard to "hurt" a guy that is used to getting hurt. Chances are his stamina is better too. Although a martial artist has more "tools" at his disposal, it doesn't guarantee anything......neither does having a gun.

The biggest issue most martial artists need to understand is, once a fight starts, fight to KILL. Anything less will get you messed up. There is no reason to fight other than to save your own life. If the fight ends and BOTH parties go to the hospital, then no one won.

[John Ringo]

Guess this is turning into a pretty wicked debate:-)

I would say that physical strength and body size MOST CERTAINLY has a lot to do with winning factors in a street fight. Not always, but a lot of the time. The bigger someone is the more damage that they can do to you. But I have also been in the ring with some 250 to 270 lbs boxers that would just laugh when I would hit them in the face.

Someone like Mike Tyson would be an example. An average fighter could punch and kick him all day long while he stood there and laughed. But if he hit you once he would break every bone in someone's face. His punches are much more devastating due to his strength and body mass.

But let me say that I am talking here about trained fighters....not some 300lbs dude on his way out of Pizza Hut :-)

[Danindetroit]

Does anyone really know why kickboxing would be on a advertisement for a TKD establishment? Is it just a way to tell the untrained that they teach kicking, or the rules of "kickboxing".

[John Ringo]

One more thing here:

When I began training in the Chuck Norris school back in 1985, I trained with some very good martial artists from several different systems. Even Bill "Superfoot" Wallace used to hold some seminars. Most of our work was with self-defense, one-step punches, and sparing. There were no "bare knuckles" matches or exercises designed to see if you could withstand a knock-out in the ring. Most sparing matches where based on a three-point system. The martial artists had respect for one another, and nobody would get onto the mat with the expectation of beating the snot out of someone. Things were done professionally and with respect for other students.

Yes, there were many cases where there were 100 lbs women who could throw a person across the room as well as 150lbs guys who could do a back-flip while kicking the ceiling. Actually I was one of those guys when I was about 18 years old. At public demonstrations I would kick a focus pad held on a staff at around 8 or 9 feet from the floor for a round of applause. It was all clean fun.

When I joined the USMC and got out into the world of collegiate boxing I very quickly learned that other fighters where not willing partners. They would not stand there and let you thrown them around like a good sport :-) Their mission in the ring or in the sand-pit was to win. They were not going to run up and put you into a "bear hug" so that you could demonstrate how you could toss them across the room. This is where I learned that there is a big difference between respectful martial artists performing self-defense drills versus people who want to knock your head off of your shoulders. Most of the time there is no way that a 100 lbs person is going to toss a 200 lbs fighter across the room unless the 200 lbs fighter let them do it. Unless of course it is someone like Gracie or some other seasoned competition fighter. This has been my experience. But, that is NOT to say that it is 100% impossible in 100% of the cases. Nothing is impossible. But some things are highly unlikely. Let's put it that way.

In my past experience, I have seen a lot of martial artists walk out of a dojo with their 1st DAN black belt and have the expectation that they can beat-down any opponent that crosses their path because he or she has a black belt or midnight blue belt. The same holds true for recruit graduates of boot camp. Many of these people start strutting around like peacocks thinking that they are invincible. Of course this is against the philosophy of martial arts...but people do it. You guys have probably seen this before. The real world is often a harsh awakening for some of these folks when they encounter a dirty-fighter or an experienced street fighter.

I've seen some downright nasty street fighters in my time. I have a 3" knife wound in my left leg from one of them. My point with all of this is not to dismiss everything that any of you have said. I am not trying to argue that I am right and you are wrong. I am just presenting a counter-view to some of the preconceived notions of what a martial arts background can give you with personal experience. The biggest thing that one can learn from any martial arts system is to avoid fights and use your head. Sometimes our ego can write checks that our body can't cash.

It's nice chatting with you folks...just keep it civil :-) ha ha ha.

[Danindetroit]

I have to ask, is wallace the guy who had a bad knee injury, and was not that mobile, and would stand on his "bad leg", and use the other to deliver some devastating blows. I do prefer to use all the appropriate gear when sparring. Hand protection for the other person, and you, foot covers, that cover the instep, and the toes, MOUTHGAURD #1 concussion fighter, I think Elbow pads, knee pads, the most minimal headgear, and pull on groin protection was provided, since it went over the pants, and was able to be wiped with a cleaning solution. There was a minimum of protection required to spar. I think my equpment cost at least $100 more than 10 years ago. If you are going to really do some full contact stuff, spend the money.

[Doerdie]

"In today's market, a black belt doesn't mean crap. A black belt does not hold the value it once did. The training and rigors one had to go thru to get a black belt are not done in most of today's commercialized schools."

A black belt means you are no longer a beginner, nothing more, and from what I have learned that has been true for thousands of years. Anyone who thinks (or thought) that a Black Belt meant you were a Master is or was mistaken, a victem of hear-say or Hollywood. Achiving Black means that you have learned the "basics of the art" and are ready to BEGIN training, not advanced, but beginning training. Black is the beginning, not the end. It is a milestone to be proud of, but pride can get you hurt.
If you are interested in any martial art or boxing, go and Watch others a few times before joining, talk with the students and teachers. It is alot like buying a used car, you have to shop around and do your homework. If your looking purley at self-defense, make sure that point is known before you join a class. I think if you were to take kickboxing and American boxing you would be a fairly tough target for the bad guys after a few years. But a BG with a gun won't care, so its best to avoid the situations if possible.

"A man has got to know his limitations"

[AUG]

I have to say I am impressed with TFL today. I have not been attacked once!

In my expierence I have seen that some people are just better fighters than others. Some people can fight and some can't. End of story.

[Ninjato]

A black belt means you are no longer a beginner, nothing more, and from what I have learned that has been true for thousands of years. Anyone who thinks (or thought) that a Black Belt meant you were a Master is or was mistaken, a victem of hear-say or Hollywood. Achiving Black means that you have learned the "basics of the art" and are ready to BEGIN training, not advanced, but beginning training. Black is the beginning, not the end.

You'd be surprised at how many people do not understand this concept. After 30+ years, I still haven't found a good reason to quit yet.

[DarkKnight01]

Ninjato: "After 30+ years, I still haven't found a good reason to quit yet."

thats because there isnt any reasons =) ill quit when im dead =)

effective exercise, with more reward than a silly jane fonda work out video lol

[Ninjato]

Ninjato: "After 30+ years, I still haven't found a good reason to quit yet." thats because there isnt any reasons =) ill quit when im dead =) effective exercise, with more reward than a silly jane fonda work out video lol

HAHAHAHA....you know, when I was young (8yrs old) I saw some martial artists breaks bricks. I thought to myself that was the pinnacle of martial skill. By the time I was in 8th grade, I broke my first brick, but I was still getting my ass kicked in class.....hmmmmmmm. ;)

[DarkKnight01]

Morihei Ueshiba having been the founder of Aikido which im sure your familiar with this information, born in 1883 and died in 1969 studied for the better part of his life i believe beginning study as young as 4... still considered himself a beginner the day he died... there is always room for improvement, no such thing as too much training =)

in comparison to what some know... including yourself... i know nothing after 19 years.... perhaps in another 15-20 ill begin to have a better grasp at knowing more =) but by that time ill probably still figure i know nothing... lol that seems to be how it goes. dedicating much of my life to martial arts is the greatest choice i have ever made, and would never do anything to change it even if i could. =)

[gunsmith1]

One bad thing I see in Martial arts is the people in small communities teaching it. Usually its some guy who took very limited lessons himself teaching a bunch of kids who unfortunately don't know the difference. I have yet to see a fight won by a local guy using martial arts. Usually they get their butt kicked in a bar for bragging that they are an "expert" in something. Im sure there are experts in the Martial arts but I feel they are few and far between.

[pointfiveoh]

The only style I have studied is Cuong Nhu, a hybrid of Vovi nam (think vietnamese kf), shotokan, judo, tai chi chuan, american boxing, aikido, and wing chun. I have found it to cater to many different body types. As far as winning a fight goes, I would probably rely more on my 6'5" 235 frame to win than try to be flashy. I'd never kick higher than knees in a fight as I'd like to keep my legs attached to my body. Knees and elbows are really all the tools I use. I agree with the point about boxers wailing on people because they really practice fighting. In sparring, most styles do not try to actually kill each other, whereas military training and boxing opponents do.
This may or may not be exactly correct but the USMC used to use judo for a lot of the self defense. I have had the privilege of learning some from Ernie Cates exUSMC, who if I remember correctly used to be the head NCO hand to hand instructor for recruits. He is 72 or 3 now and could kill anyone I know with his hands, what he lacks in speed he makes up for in sheer knowledge and experience. If you have a strong upper body, judo is not a bad choice, because since most fights will go to the ground, it's good to know how to dispatch your opponent on the ground, and if you're holding on to him, he can't hit you very well. Throwing your opponent will probably do more damage than punching him if you do it well because instead of a small impact, you hit his whole body with the ground with minimal damage done to yourself. That's good stuff if you don't train to harden your hands and strengthen wrists, punching something hard can really mess you up if you haven't prepared for it.
Wow... long first post. :D

[rugerdude]

Welcome to TFL, glad to have you aboard and thanks for the post.

Happy posting,
rugerdude

[AUG]

Welcome!

He is 72 or 3 now and could kill anyone I know with his hands

So can most any man without any MA training to speak of. It just depends on how hard the opponent fights back.

In sparring, most styles do not try to actually kill each other, whereas military training and boxing opponents do.

Are you talking about the hand to hand training that guys get in military training? I would hardly hold what little bit of hand to hand training done in the military to that of a boxer. Flipping each other over in the dirt, fighting with giant q-tips, and sparring in full gear once or twice is hardly "training" someone to fight.

I'm not putting down the military but the level of "hand to hand" training is introductory at best.

[pointfiveoh]

Oh, you are absolutely right, that's why it is "basic" training. I'd have to agree with you 100% that boxers have more and possibly better fight training. However, take any vet in reasonable shape and I'm sure they could show a boxer a thing or two. Really just depends on the person. And to explain my awe of Professor Cates, I have seen fairly competent fighters attack him and watched him destroy them. After a few goes of "this is just some old man, I'll take it easy on him" some people get tired of swinging and looking at the ceiling. It really is quite entertaining watching someone you thought was the "underdog" whip a bunch of people, especially when many of them are black belts. ;)

[AUG]

I'd have to agree with you 100% that boxers have more and possibly better fight training. However, take any vet in reasonable shape and I'm sure they could show a boxer a thing or two.

I really doubt that "any vet in reasonable shape" can hang with a trained boxer.

[rolling thunder]

my 2 cents.....I haven't had time to read every word here, but since this is what I teach for a living I can probably give a point or two...

Basically all hand to hand fighting falls under grappling or striking. As a complete fighting system, besides being in excellent condition, one must know some from both approaches. Some will swear Ju Jitsu is the best, until they are attacked by five or six gys, then they realize they should have taken some striking training as well. When someone rushes in past a strikers range it will go to the ground in a hurry.

I have heard so many people say "I trained for a few months in this style and I know a little about this style usually no nil. Martial arts is not something you perfect to a fighting degree overnight. No magic pills in MA.
As is Boxing, wrestling, YKD and even Ju jitsu...Just because a defense has a sport venue in no way detracts from the actual art itself.

(Boxing) It is limited but when you consider that nearly everyone you may encounter has no martial training, knowing how to box will save the day more than not. (save for weapons being used) Most "civillians" may know a dirty trick or two and may be in fair shape, but when it comes down to the brass tacks I'd go with a trained boxer.

I would not exactly classify Bruce Lee as the greatest Martial Artist of all time. He was a movie star. He was not a professional fighter. I am sure that Billy Blanks would have no problem cleaning the floor with Bruce Lee in a street fight. Most of what Martial Artists do in movies (like flying reverse crescent kicks and spinning back flips) would be completely useless in a street fight.

Most would. To say that he was not a professional fighter is to say that he did not get paid to fight, had he thought it worth of the arts he would have. He did have plenty of pro-fighters (as I mentioned Ali was among them) who did go and train and take advice from him. As far a Billy Blanks mopping the floor with Lee, I'd take that bet times ten. You didn't notice that Bruce never used flying reverse crescent kicks in his films?

(size and strength) Huh? The essence in TKD are , control, accuracy, speed and power.
I have been fighting nearly all my life. Street fighting and martial arts fighting. I am soon testing for my 5th dan (kukkiwon). I teach that speed IS power. How else are you going to get a 12 year old 80 lb boy to kick through multiple boards? Strength, though being the greater of them, is only valuble if you can move that strength around. Otherwise it is strong like a rock, rather than a waterfall.

Post# 29.....Excellent! Your name isn't "Steve" is it? j/k.]

I'm sure I will get attacked for this comment but.........

No reason to attack you. You are right on the money. It's true as much as not.
I know blackbelts that though they have trained for years in a controlled enviroment, would get the crap beat out of them by anyone sitting at a bar. Those schools allowed those blackbelts to be promoted and even may have taught the good technique. But they failed to instill the spirit of the warrior into them.
Then there are blackbelts that train and even compete, which helps to a degree but sparring has rules, a point forgotten by many who never train for street attacks.
Then there are the blackbelts, (some color belts) who train hard in class, compete seriously and condition and train under me for street fighting. I also bring in friend from grappling arts and they train with then on a part time basis. I instill the heart of the warrior into ALL my students, nearly from the minute they walk in the door. Without the heart to fight, one may as well lay done his weapon.

(MA's study how not to fight) A MA DOES study to fight. In a serious student, one will see that everything they do, (sleep, weights, diet,etc; is to become a very good fighter.) It is only when one has trained to their potential that they then know that if they must fight. that they not only can, but will. The number of encounters they have on the streets declines as the student walks with more purpose, talks with more confidence.

reply to ringo:
I started training in 1975 and it was VERY hard to even endure the workouts. We trained on an asphalt lot in the summer and a small schoolroom in the winter. The only "sparring gear" we had was a mouthpiece and a cup. Yes, we conditioned for fighting, drilled for fighting AND we fought. Little guys fought big guys, multiple attackers, just about as real as we get without actually fighting full-out. I used to rune a mile every day barefoot in one inch rock. The calouses(sp?) on my feet would tear well-worn socks as I put them on.

(street tactics) However, that sort of training I reserve only for my blackbelts. For nearly all my color belts train hard, condition hard, but I don't allow them to step onto the mat, save for some simple drills I involve them in.

I still myself will grapple on my mat, (no use knocking me out of my chair to grapple so I just start there.) Some of my better students best me now but I will often do something as simple as a wrist-lock so they tap out even though they are on top of me.

I don't think that the "biggest" thing you can learn from martrial arts is how to avoid fighting by using your head. Sure that is a good skill, and one I myself have employed many times and urge my students to do so. I always tell them that I defeat my enemy by making them my friend.

There are just too many benifits to MA training (of course I am talking several years, not several months) to be narrowed down to "How is the best way to defend yourself?" It's what kept me alive 9 years ago when my opponent was a pole and harsh weather. It's what has kept my passion and spirit to accomplish my goals. It has become entirely who I am. I live the life of a martial artist, something that is so often not discovered easily even by blackbelts.

A black belt means you are no longer a beginner, nothing more, and from what I have learned that has been true for thousands of years. Anyone who thinks (or thought) that a Black Belt meant you were a Master is or was mistaken, a victem of hear-say or Hollywood. Achiving Black means that you have learned the "basics of the art" and are ready to BEGIN training, not advanced, but beginning training. Black is the beginning, not the end. It is a milestone to be proud of, but pride can get you hurt.

Excellent! I could not have stated it any better. When someone completes painting a picture, are they an artist? Maybe, but not a master.

dedicating much of my life to martial arts is the greatest choice i have ever made, and would never do anything to change it even if i could. =)
Here! Here! I imagine it's like religion. Staying on the path of being a martial artist is the one goal that allows me to attain many other goals.


One bad thing I see in Martial arts is the people in small communities teaching it. Usually its some guy who took very limited lessons himself teaching a bunch of kids who unfortunately don't know the difference. I have yet to see a fight won by a local guy using martial arts. Usually they get their butt kicked in a bar for bragging that they are an "expert" in something. Im sure there are experts in the Martial arts but I feel they are few and far between.

I'm in a small community. I have a few adult blackbelts that work in either security, law enforcement or some other field where confidence and defense skills are used hand in hand. As far as "I have yet to see a fight won by a local guy using martial arts." I coud introduce you to scores just in my state who could (though they wouldn't) easily dispel any notion you've learned that a bar brawler is a better fighter than someone who trains to fight. Even with safety in my class we fight hard. In the last year alone there have been two LOC's (KO"s) two broken hands, a broken nose several blackeyes and a severely dislocated shoulder. By and large, most bar brawlers who often make that claim, would never go to a MA training hall to look for a fight.
NEVER fight a drunk in public.
It is a no win. If they do beat the crap out of the guy then all they were was some "expert" who beat the crap out of a drunk. If they lose, they are now known as that "expert" that got clocked by "Bubba".

I had to delete some really goods post and used few quotes. Hopefully anyone reading will be up enough in this thread to discern who and what I was addressing.

[rugerdude]

I have yet to call the TKD/kickboxing gym near my house, I'm waiting for my sister to get out of the hospital because she wanted to study kickboxing as well. How closely is kickboxing related to boxing?

[Ninjato]

I have yet to call the TKD/kickboxing gym near my house, I'm waiting for my sister to get out of the hospital because she wanted to study kickboxing as well. How closely is kickboxing related to boxing?

For the most part it is boxing w/ TKD kicks. Not really a true martial art IMO, but effective nevertheless. The downside is kickboxing is in many respects a SPORT where many killing/disabling moves are technically illegal in the ring and obviously you have huge gloves on. A real street altercation factors in a lot more than just punching and kicking.

Regardless of what you plan to study, a little training is always better than no training.

[Danindetroit]

Ninjato, is my post #36 on this thread close to what you know of the rules of kickboxing? I saw rolling thunders post, about running for a mile on rocks, is there a reason for that?

Post #36 sorry.

[rugerdude]

"The downside is kickboxing is in many respects a SPORT"

That's exactly what i'm looking for, a sport. I was never interested in football or basketball or baseball or really any sport involving a ball and kickboxing seems like fun. I'm not out to beat the crap out of anyone, I just need something to do in my free time (which I have a lot of). And if it helps me defend myself later on great, but I don't have many enemies.

[Ninjato]

Ninjato, is my post #36 on this thread close to what you know of the rules of kickboxing? I saw rolling thunders post, about running for a mile on rocks, is there a reason for that? Post #36 sorry.

Pretty much. In standard kickboxing, there are no kicks below the waist, blows to the back of the head are off limits (like boxing), mandatory minimum of 8 landed kicks per round. No sweeps to the rear leg and dpeneding on rules, some allow kicks to the head but no punches to the head.

Kickboxing has many benefits: There is a certain realism to it. It gives a person a very good representation of what it feels like to have a lot of agressive force coming at you and it teaches a person distance. Kickboxing focuses on speed, and strength and a tremendous amount of aerobic fitness. It is an ideal sport for a person who want more of an augmented training regimen over a monotonous calisthenics type of excercise. Beyond this, a formal traditional martial art training is necessary.

Formal MA training has changed a lot over the last 30 years and to find a true traditional school setup can be hard to find. Many commercial schools do not cover higher levels of MA.

The main difference is, an effective MA needs to be efficient, quick, and relatively easy to use. Ease of use though unfortunately requires years of training. Years ago, I use to sit in on many women's self defense seminars, and it was quite obvious that NONE of the women completing the course would ever be able to employ any of the techniques that were taught. The main reason being that the techniques were heavily based on MA principles (whatever that particular style was) and not really suited to a person who has no concept of movement...(trust me, the number of uncoordinated people outnumber coordinated people 10 to 1.) The techniques I use feel easy to me due to the training I have had for over 30 years. I have yet to see any of my students able to apply a clean technique since their basics and foundation are weak.

That said, women's self defense has evolved into an impact type class. These are effective and I was highly impressed at the success rate. There were no intricate techniques, and the tools were basic.....when I say basic I mean, HIT to induce a lot of pain, and run like hell. Dukin' it out is NOT the prefferred approach although for many males that will be the general tendency.

Remember, a fight is dirty. It has no rules, and ANYTHING goes. Learn whatever MA you want, pick up whatever sport you want, but when it really gets down to the nitty gritty, your own resourcefullness will be determined by the amount of training and what kind of training you have had, and what is available to you at the time.

[Danindetroit]

Thanks N. Instead of sitting on the couch watching TV, I practiced, boxing type movement, front foot, then backfoot forward, never cross your feet, and when in doubt, circle to the left, since most people, are righties. I asked about the foot thing, I worked outdoors, and had very calloused, hands, and feet, I didn't feel it helped in any way, and I tried to make running or aerobic work as comfortable, as possible, I guess it is a concentration, and willpower thing. I wish I could attend some training, I am going to try physical therapy type exercises at a gym, with the wife, she won't workout without me. I have to try to get my muscles muscles ready for my next back surgery. Stay warm. Happy holiday everybody. :)