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View Full Version : How long for ATF say OK on FA?


prowler
October 6, 2004, 12:43 AM
I just turn in it the F 4 form to ATF to get approve for two of my Uzi and one FN FAL. I used to have a high security crearance "Q" when I was working for DOE contractor, owning a small gun shop holding a FFL class I license.

Any one know : what the average waiting time for ATF to get approve?

Brick
October 6, 2004, 03:11 AM
couple of months

be advised. once you turn that form in, you're OKing them to come in any time they want and 'have them for some inspection'.

:mad:

Hkmp5sd
October 6, 2004, 06:51 AM
you're OKing them to come in any time they want and 'have them for some inspection'.
Nope. They require a search warrant like any other law enforcement agency to enter your house and "inspect" anything. The most they can do is knock on your door and ask to see your Form 4. I bought my first machinegun roughly 18 years ago and have never been visited by ATF or anyone else.
what the average waiting time for ATF to get approve?
If it's your first time through the process, it will probably take the full 3 months or so. Once you're in the system, they come back a little faster.

paul s
October 6, 2004, 08:23 AM
I have done three form 4's and one form 5 and all them took 3 months give or take a day. Don't understant the paranoia about NFA, do you thing the feds have to wait till you have a NFA item to mess with your life??

prowler
October 6, 2004, 11:05 AM
It took me four months to get my FFL class 1, I using my store for the address not my home, ATF can come visit me at the store anytime I do not have anything to hide.

I bought these guns from the bankrupcy auction these guns are in the safe of the trustee, they want me to take them now but I said no.

These two Uzi from the original form F 3 are stamps as "LIMITED TO USE AS SALES SAMPLE" some one told me that they cannot be transfer to the inividual. Is that correct?

This is my first time to enter this FA field, please let me know, the price below is O.K.
Mini Uzi cost me $2,300.00 the full size Uzi is $2,000.00 and the FN Belgium FAL is $500.00 these guns look like new in the soft case, there is no case on the FN.

CQBArms
October 6, 2004, 11:45 AM
None of those can transfer on a form 4. Those are all dealer samples, and depending on the age, you may need a demo letter to buy them.

If the are Pre May samples, then they transfer on form 3 no letter...
Price ain't bad, the FAL price is good.

If they are post May samples...you need Demo letters for each one...and those would transfer on a form 3 as well.

Price, FAL is good, I get post may Uzi's in here for about $1250...sometimes as low as $800.

prowler
October 6, 2004, 01:24 PM
CQBArms,

Thank you for responded, I did not know what the different before, I sent in a form 4 to ATF and $200.00 for each gun, I did not have a class 2 or 3 just a class 1 license. I though I have to pay $200.00 to be able to transfer to privatly own. I did not know it the post may or not, this is a new thing for me, they told me I can bid so I did and got them.

Here the serial # on Uzi MU 032XX and 0701XX can you tell these guns are pre or post May.

Thanks

CQBArms
October 6, 2004, 02:46 PM
Not sure, go over to Uzitalk and ask about the serial numbers.
I'm betting the are pre samples based on the wording of the document.

You may want to consider paying the SOT for a few years and getting into NFA guns...you already have your FFL.

mdavid01
October 7, 2004, 10:11 AM
I agree that the wait is unbearable...escpecially for my first one. Just suck it up and keep waiting. I've tried forgetting about it so it'll just be a suprise but I can't seem to really forget her....

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid137/pe17098212582b66244ceeafd3a6b2db0/f733337a.jpg

prowler
October 7, 2004, 12:48 PM
According to ATF official SOT is $500.00/year I can get Class 3 at the same price it start from June first to May 30 every year but I be able to transfer or sell NAF stuff. :p

Thank you for the answers.

boofus
October 7, 2004, 01:23 PM
My last Form 4 only took 32 days from mailbox to mailbox. I heard it was because of the summer interns, so maybe it's slowed down again.

prowler
October 9, 2004, 09:48 AM
Call NFA yesterday try to find out the guns I purchased are pre-may or not: put on hold for 20 minutes then on hold again 10 minutes just to find out, then the answers is........"our record just showing registered name, serial number like form F3 you have, you have to ask the owner yourself." After I spent over 30 minutes of long distance plus waiting and got nothing. :D

I just lucky because my long distance cost me 5 cents/min.

CQBArms
October 12, 2004, 02:24 PM
You would have to ask the owner as they said, find out if someone at Uzi talk has a list date of the serial numbers (which may get you close but not really helpful if determining the actual register date) or have the estate file a FOIA request to get access to the actual registry and date of register.
By the wroding it is a sample, I can't remember which wording is which...and don't feel like going into the paperwork.

Something to note, if they are premay samples, a dealer can own them, then when they go out of business, you can keep them as an individual but they can only be sold to another dealer.

It will be interesting to see if your Form 4 goes through as I amy have mis spoke about a non SOT dealer filing a Form 4 for a sample gun. I've never seen it and the four dealers I've asked are split down the middle on it.
Half say you have to be a SOT payer to get the guns, and the other half says no.

Keep us posted...it would be nice to know the outcome.

Hkmp5sd
October 12, 2004, 07:45 PM
Half say you have to be a SOT payer to get the guns, and the other half says no.
When you, as a Special (Occupational) Taxpayer, go out of business as a dealer in NFA firearms, you may, if you are a sole proprietorship, retain those weapons imported or manufactured prior to May 19, 1986, the effective date of 18 U.S.C. 922(o). You should note your acquisition/disposition book to show that the weapon(s) are now in your possession as an individual. These firearms may only be transferred to approved law enforcement/government agencies as sales samples. These provisions allowing retention of weapons manufactured prior to May 19, 1986, do not apply to corporations or partnerships.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/complete.htm

CQBArms
October 12, 2004, 10:07 PM
Exactly NOT what I'm talking about...

Half say a dealer that is NOT a SOT can get a post sample for use as a dealer, half say not.

As a SOT payer I can get demos (pre and post with a letter). A non SOT paying dealer can still buy and sell NFA, they just have to pay a tax on each gun.

The issue is at hand, as a dealer that doesn't pay a SOT , I don't think he can buy a pre or post sample...as it's on an Form 4, and all pre and post samples at first have to be transfered on a Form 3, Form 5 and sometimes a Form 10.
If he quits being a dealer and has pre samples, he can transfer them to himself and keep them, posts have to be sold....but again...no SOT, no samples pre or post for original purchase....that's the issue.

Hkmp5sd
October 13, 2004, 04:43 AM
Everywhere they talk about transfers of dealer samples in the NFA, they state they must go to a SOT, not an 01-FFL. An 01-FFL would have to do a Form 4 transfer and as two of your friends stated, ATF won't do that to a pre-86 dealer sample.

One thing of interest would be if they actually do allow this and later determine it was an error, to they allow prowler to sell and transfer the weapon to a dealer or do they declare it contriband and confiscate it.

prowler
October 13, 2004, 11:54 PM
I talk to ATF agent who respondsible in my area, he told me I have to either pay SOT for each MG I want to transfer to me as a sample on C 1 dealer, but if I pay SOT for C 3 dealer from June to June $500.00 per year I be able to transfer these MG as soon as I recive a tax stamp for C 3 dealer. Other confusion is I am a sole owner of a small gun shop and use my SSI for fling a tax return, he told me I have to get an EIN because ATF cannot use SSI for an EIN.

On the the form 4 and my check will be retun soon as they made a determination I was used a wrong form, it will take a few months before I get it back, but I can fill out the form 3 soon as I receice a C 3 stamp.

I hope I can get my guns soon so I can go to Vegas on March of next year for uzitalk shoot out.

Hkmp5sd
October 14, 2004, 04:40 AM
That's interesting. An 01-FFL can get a pre-86 dealer sample by paying a $200 transfer fee plus bypass the CLEO? And keep the sample after giving up the license? If it is true, the value of pre-86 samples is about to go sky high because they are easier to get than the common transferrable machineguns.

prowler
October 15, 2004, 11:51 AM
Someone posted at UZITALK.COM indicated if pre May sample will stamped as "LIMITE TO USE AS SALES SAMPLE" if Posted May will stamped "Restricted registration-Possion limited to continued compliance with provisions of public law 99-308"

Hkmp5sd
October 15, 2004, 01:12 PM
If you didn't mind the wait, it would be interesting to see if they would transfer them to you on your 01-FFL. According to Bardwell's NFA FAQ (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt), ATF will not transfer a dealer sample to an 01-FFL. He also makes an interesting statement on getting a SOT..
A sole proprietor SOT may keep any NFA weapon he has after surrendering his SOT, as his personal property, except post-86 machine guns, discussed below. If ATF thinks, based on the number of weapons retained and the timing, that your SOT status was used to evade the transfer taxes, they may demand transfer or making taxes on all or some of the guns. Conceivably you could also be prosecuted for tax evasion.

Unless you plan on actually dealing in machineguns, getting a SOT may not be the best way to go.

prowler
October 15, 2004, 08:05 PM
No, I am not transfering to my C 1. :eek: I sent in $500.00 to get my C 3 when I get C 3, I will use F 3 to transfer.

I was recomended by ATF agent to do this way because these two Uzi are sale sample and the FN FAL I can use F 4 to transfer direct to me for $200.00.

CQBArms
October 15, 2004, 08:56 PM
Cool. That sort of settles it then so they can't transfer on a form 4, meaning you need the SOT.

Are you a corp or a sole prop? As there are some hangups with transfering pre samples ad the end of your "dealership" life if you are a corp.

As a matter of record, it's 07/C2 01/C3...no real C1.

prowler
October 15, 2004, 09:31 PM
After All The Hassle I Have, Now I Kind Of Understand Some Of The Procedure. Any One HaVe A FFL C 1 Can Transfer Any Sample By Pay $500.00 To Apply For The C3 ( I Call An Upgrade) Then You Can Buy And Sales All You Want As A Ffl C1 Excepted You Must Get Approval From Atf, Nfa Brance, And You Can Charge For The Sevice Which Normally Between $100.00 To $150.00 Per Transaction.

Before You Send In Money And The Form In To Atf You Must Have An Ein (employment Identification Number) You Must Go To Web Site And Apply For One Which Is No Cost To You, You Cannot Use Your Ssn As A Taxes Payer. I Did Know You Have To Have An Ffl C1 Or Notto Apply To Get A Ffl C3.

All Of Those Step Done, Then Next Step Is Wait To Hear From Atf Interview Then They Can Say Yeh Or Neh. That's All Folk! Wait And Wait And Wasted........ :(

CQBArms
October 15, 2004, 10:54 PM
Ok some things because I'm getting confused again...

There is no C1 FFL There are Title 1 guns, there is a Class 1 SOT but that's for an importer, there is a Type 1 FFL.

I am a Type 1 FFL and pay a class III Sot (Dealer in NFA firearms)

I am a Type 7 FFL and pay a class II SOT (MFG/Dealer of NFA Firearms)

I am a Type 10 FFL and pay a class II SOT (MFG/Dealer of Destructive devices)

You will be a Type 01 Class III dealer.

In reality if you FFL and SOT have the same EIN, you are probably a little better off but it doesn't matter that much.

Transfers, if you can get $150 for them that's pretty good..most will do them for under or around $100.

"approval" comes in the form of your stamp, it's good for a specific period of time, no prorating or deiscounts for parts of the year not used.
It will take about 1-2 months for your SOT to be registered in the system and for you to get at least a control number, if not the actual receipt.
As long as you have your FFL there is no real "approval" just administration and paperwork.

You have to pay your SOT every year, give it up at some point down the road, that's fine but make sure you transfer your samples out either to yourself as a pre sample or to someone qualified as a post sample.

prowler
October 16, 2004, 08:57 AM
CQBArms,

Thank you for strait me out. Yes, I understand that there is no prorate on the SOT, I have to pay in full amount for the SOT.

One thing I did know much about these number or try to confuse any one. I have a valid "01- dealer in firearms other than destructive devices" this sentence is printed on my FFL license, I put all the firearms record in the bound book since you have all the licenses plese let me know do I keep all the records of the FA with regular none FA?

prowler
October 24, 2004, 05:50 PM
Check my bank account today, my $500.00 check was clear by NFA except 3 of the $200.00 check was sent out a week before did not clear yet. maybe the are sending them back.

I hope I can get my approval soon.

CQB Arms do I have to keep NFA record seperate from regular firarms?