View Full Version : Smokeless powder???
October 4, 2004, 06:50 PM
Smokeless powder in a muzzloader?? Savage?? You're kidding me! I'd have never guessed. Does anybody know when they started this? What is different about this muzzloader that it is able to do this? Is it just strength?? Ok, enough questions....oh, wait...the ultimate question.....why would anyone want to do this??
October 4, 2004, 09:38 PM
The Savage has been on the market now for about 3 years. I reckon it's just the ultimate in trying to get an advantage...................personally, to me it kinda defeats the purpose of "primitive" hunting - but to each his own.
The barrel and action has been made to smokeless barrel specifications, with much more resilient steel than your standard muzzleloader. But that said, one of the designers and promoters had a MAJOR malfunction earlier this year.............the breech of the gun was peeled back like a banana.............scared the bajeezies out of him. :eek: He thinks it was a function of metal stress on the breech plug and the breech area inside the barrel. But either way...he is no longer a promoter of the gun (but some politics & $$$ may be involved in that too).
October 4, 2004, 10:22 PM
When I was taking armorers' school in Illion, NY, the Remington engineers told me that they used the same receiver and barrel steel for their in-line rifles.
October 5, 2004, 05:15 PM
Thanks for the replies. I'm still not sure I understand. I especially don't see what advantage anyone thinks it offers. My guess is that most folks using this weapon are shooting pistol bullets.....so the increased velocity is probably a bad thing. More likely a very bad thing. To each his own I guess.
October 5, 2004, 08:58 PM
Remington uses the same material for their receiver and barrel, but I doubt it if they intended for someone to load it with anything other than blackpowder or a substitute. Unless someone wants a handgrenade, I can't see pouring bullseye down a barrel.
October 6, 2004, 01:30 PM
I think the advantage is to hunt in the ML-only season, but with a regular hunting-rifle "uumph".
January 2, 2005, 11:34 PM
warning the savage 10 MLII is unsafe there have been reports of one blowing up in the field Toby Bridges a well known muzzle loader writer and big savage supporter reports that one of his blew up and now reports to beware the MLII is dangerous I have over 30+ years experiance and Think it is the most foolish concept in muzzle loading in some time that s why no other serious gun maker is offering a smokless powder muzzle loader its not because they cant make one it would be irresponsible the whole concept is dangerous especially if used by an inexperianced shooter I am a gun maker I own a small co wich builds matchlock s and medieval hand gonnes as well as artillary and we decided to put a savage MLII to the test in our proof station and as iI thought WE HAD ABSOLUTLLY NO PROBLEM IN BLOWING IT UP and it blew so badly that it would have killed the shooter Savage is out of their minde
January 3, 2005, 12:29 AM
A pox on Savage for introducing a muzzleloading rifle that can take smokeless powder. May those who thought this one up get a cancer on their trigger finger!
Smokeless powder generates much higher pressures than black. The limitation is in the design of the arm, as well as the steel used. The finest steel can't overcome design limitations.
A good example is the 1873 Springfield "Trapdoor" rifle in .45-70 caliber. I own a reproduction made in the 1970s by Harrington & Richardson. By all accounts it is made very well, from the most modern steels. But its Trapdoor action is the bugaboo and only loads approximating black powder pressures may be used in it.
So it is with muzzleloaders. From what I understand, the weakest points are the breechplug, nipple screwing into the breech area, or the flashhole on flintlocks.
Any of these areas cannot steadily take smokeless powder pressures. It may blow the first time, the 10th time or the 100th time --- but it WILL let go! And it will be like a grenade when it does.
The Savage rifle uses a bolt-action to overcome the breechblock problem and to create a good seal. I believe it uses a shotgun primer to overcome the nipple problem.
Nonetheless, there is some indication that the Savage is not perfect.
Toby Bridges initially lauded its introduction. Now, he warns against it, according to what I've read on the internet.
I've also read that he had some kind of falling out with Savage and may have ulterior motives for decrying it.
I don't know which version is true, whether it's a safe or unsafe rifle, but I am damned weary of the attitude this rifle embodies.
Muzzleloader seasons were created solely to give hunters with primitive arms a chance. Today, the mindset seems to be get as much advantage as you can, screw tradition, get your game any way you can and to hell with everyone else.
When I lived in Idaho, that state had to pass a law against using laser sights on muzzleloaders! It took a LAW to tell people that this was WRONG? Didn't their sense of fair play, hunting ethics and respect for tradition tell them it was unfair advantage?
Inlines are just plain wrong. They're designed to cheat. So are glow in the dark sights and sabots with jacketed bullets.
But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Whatever the American culture touches, it eventually perverts to excess.
January 15, 2005, 02:52 PM
And when I first started reading this I thougt that some one was making a joke or missunderstood what Savage was doing.
I can see some advangates in Smokless. Cleaner, more bullet speed, safer to carry powder since smokless is not an ezplosive like black powder.
BUT the disadvantages far out weight the adva.
What in Gods name are they using to hold the primer on the nipple with.
Must be an inline with everything contained.
This sounds like an excuse for an explosion, and from some of your inputs it has been.
Some one said "A POX on Savage" Truer words were never spoken.
Lets see, lets load a 223 with black powder and load them in a full auto M16, that would still be primitive hunting, wouldnt it.
Or how about a BAR loaded with black powder, you can get it in the case so it should be ok right? :cool:
January 26, 2005, 05:42 PM
smokeless is just a fad anyway.
February 15, 2005, 08:12 PM
smokeless is just a fad anyway.
Some people might think that, one day, most shotguns and rimfires on the planet would be powered by it.
Heresy. Now, who would ever actually believe that? :eek:
February 15, 2005, 09:27 PM
I know there are alot of people not familiar with the savage "smokeless" muzzleloader- those are the people that should research the subject BEFORE condemning it- smokeless is here to stay - it's a natural progression in time- I know some will want to argue this progression - it's fine by me- they can stick with their matchlocks because the flintlocks are a fad- or the 11 cap- or the adapted musket cap- or the 209 primer- and Savage is not alone in the smokeless marketplace of muzzle loading guns.. The Savage ended up my choice after about 3 years of research on inlines-I have a large number of sidelocks and underhammers- Safety, Accuraccy and the number of positive reviews sold me- not any of the people that state theirs blew up -but they don't have a shred of proof ! :rolleyes:Only 1 documented case has ever shown up- and the suspicious nature of the timing of it happening after his falling out as a spokesperson-I'll say no more- there are states that regulate seasons by primitive weapons (such as Pennsylvania-flintlock only) while others specify "muzzle loading" guns -with the amount of TC encores, Omegas ,CVA and a host of other inlines all fit the " MUZZLE LOADING" criteria. I would invite you all to visit and read some on these boards-there are some great and VERY knowledgable guys haunt there- http://members.aol.com/randymagic/ballltd.htm
February 15, 2005, 10:00 PM
Ozzieman, Jarhead Ed, and all others on this thread! What’s up? Hope your all having a wonderful evening. Well there are crazier things done on this planet than shooting smokeless powder in a Savage 10ml-II. If you’re not familiar with it I can see your confusion. Take a bit a time a do some open minded research and you’ll see a wonderful new area in the shooting sports. No it’s not your daddy’s smoke pole but it is a very well designed and manufactured firearm. I’ve owned two and my last purchase was the limited edition “Henry Ball” and it’s a fine piece of workmanship that will shoot minute of angle at 100 yards with many bullet / powder combinations. Now from my perch in life the only thing Toby Bridges has done for us, as it pertains to smokeless muzzleloading, is show that with the right amount of powder and appropriate length of string to keep one out of harms way that in fact a 10-ML-II can indeed explode. IMHO…Anyway, drop by several of the more popular sites that have smokeless forums and join the debate. We welcome all. ;)
February 15, 2005, 11:27 PM
If you whant more power and range and go buy your self a 30 06 or one of new fangled breech loaded repreatin rifles it all started with the hand cannon around 1350 ad the muzzle loader was eventually replaced by the breech loader than a french chemist invented nitro powder by 1900 most guns were breech loading and firing the new smokeless powder muzzle loading was a thing of the past Today muzzle loading is a hobby sport for some people its anouther hunting season for some people its its a love of history and nostalga renactors for some people they just like muzzle loading dose smokeless powder belong to what is known as the black powder sport not really but then inlines in general dont belong to it either these are modern muzzle loading guns various people say you dont understand I am very familiar with the Savage and I own one I own many inline rifles the savage stands alone contrary to what some say smokeless muzzle loaders are far and few between but they are not a fad but no they will never become main stream they are what you call a modern muzzle loading rifle the Savage is for some one who whants a state of the art modern muzzle loader the black powder sport is actully part of a bigger sport called muzzle loading so every body just try to get along for me I have shot the savage eh I dont no what all the fuss is abought my old lee enfield will shoot the pants off savage and the savage is definitley not for amatures and I dont even whant to hear how strong the Savage is because it can blow up I going to keep mine because it shoots good with pyrodex but when it gets down to wire I can honestly say that the savage is not any more accurate than any other muzzle loader its just neatand nicely made in fact my t/c encore and NEF huntsman are cosiderably more accurate and more practical but the Savage is neat and since advent of triple 7 smokeless powder has lost its luster and I think it will lose more as time goes by
February 16, 2005, 08:41 AM
Even a keyboard can be misused, as can the English language, if one does not have the knowledge or ability to properly operate or use them. :rolleyes:
February 16, 2005, 10:04 AM
RW- I hear you and agree :rolleyes: - since he's keeping his MLII for shooting pyrodex I wouldn't want to be near him shooting his MLII with the abuse he put it through- I would love to see pictures :confused: hope the breech is solid after the 250gr mixed :eek: :D
February 16, 2005, 12:17 PM
Oconnell, lets set trhe record straight. On another thread, you stated:
I have been to Savage Arms many times My brother worked there for years I have several freinds that work there and several that have retired from Savage arms I am well acquainted With savage arms All Have treid To point to is The M10mlII is not for people who have no experiance If many of the mistakes that are commonly made buy the inexperianced were made with regard to the Savage It will spell disasterThats what I tested for 250 gains mixed smokless powder taken out of 30 30 cartidges shotgun shells and no 556 cartridges and two bullets realy rocked the savage but it survived how ever when we loaded it with a double load one on top of the other we where unable to open the breech because the breech plug blew out The savage rifle is the strongest Muzzle loader on the market But can be broken buy some of common errors in muzzle loading and buy inexperianced people doing silly things Recomending the Savage rifle to the inexperianced person is Like Buying your teenaged son a new high powered sports car The savage is for the experianced muzzle loading rifleman Savage has come long way from the aufull junk that came out of Westfield in the 70s they now are one of the premire rifle makers in the country
what I tested for 250 gains mixed smokless powder taken out of 30 30 cartidges shotgun shells and no 556 cartridges and two bullets
So, you pulled the bullets on 30-30 Win. cartridges, 5.56 (.223 Rem.) cartridges, and cut open shotgun shells, and dumped the mixture of those powders, totalling 250 grains, down the bore, seated two bullets of undiscribed weight, then primed it and fired it? How did you come to the figure of 250 grains of powder? Did you actually weigh it? Or did you use your keen eye in a hog lot, to estimate it? At this point I am very tempted to state some very harsh opinions about your honesty, mental capacity, IQ level, and/or all the above. It is taking every once of my self control, not to do so.
Being that the breech plug and the 10ML-II did not let go all together is a testoment, that Savage Arms with the 10ML_II, has come as close as anyone ever has, to idiot proofing any firearm. Your own statements of your own irresponsible and unsafe actions, speak volumns of the strength and safety factor of the Savage 10ML-II. You need to thank God, that Savage builds the worlds strongest and safest muzzleloader.
I would strongly recommend that you take a both firearm safety and metallic cartridge reloading safety courses. The life you save very well may be your own.
Shheeesshhh, some people just should not be allowed own or handle firearms, period.
As far as Toby Bridges and the one and only blown 10ML-II is concered, there is so much more to that story than has been told. If I had just stumbled across Toby's webste and saw those pictures I would probably be just as shocked as anyone. Some of the things, the people here need to know about that blown 10ML-II are:
Toby Bridge's has for 1.5 years and maybe longer, prior to the that 10ML-II letting go, had been a very vocal advocate of very high pressure/velocity loads, to include duplex loads (the mixing of 2 different kind of powders in the same load), reverse duplex loads, and even triplex loads (the mixing of 3 different kind of powders in the same load). Not to mention, all kinds of stuff, stuffed under the sabot to prevent the sabot from blowing, like 28ga shotgun wad bases, wonder wads, MMP ballistics bridges, and combinations of all of them. Bottom line is Toby Bridges abused that rifle far beyond what any normal 10ML-II will ever see.
Savage Arms has done extensive testing and evaluation on the blown 10ML-II and has undeniable proof that the cause of the failure, was a bore obstruction. The rupture of the barrel started 5" in front of the breech plug and went reward toward the breech. Not behind the breech plug and traveling forward, like Toby states. There is a debate as too whether the rifle was intentually blown or not. The majority of those who know the story behind Toby and the blown 10ML-II, are of the opinion that Toby blew that rifle on purpose. It could be that, that particular 10ML-II was a victim of Toby's ego, greed, or a combination of both. It would seem that it is a true miracle that Toby was not even scratched, nicked, or even bruised when that rifle let go. That may be because, in my opnion, he was probably not within 20 feet or more, of it. He now talks about "how shaken up he was" and how he "had to pull over on the side of the road" several times on the way home. If this was true, why was he laughing about it when he called Henry Ball that very same day, the 10ML-II was blown. He actually thought that it was funny.
In late August 2004, Toby Bridges employment by Savage Arms was terminated, possibly over the impression that the rifle intentionally blown, insubordination, and possible fraud (false billing). Toby's contractual agreement with Henry Ball was also terminated, for breech of contract. After these terminations, Toby demanded $250,000 from Savage and $50,000 from Henry Ball, or he would plaster those photos and "his story" all over the internet, via his website, e-mails, and in written publications. Well, neither Savage Arms nor Henry Ball gave into Toby's attempted pethetic blackmail and extortion demands. But, Toby kept his word and on 28 August 2004, he indeed plastered "his story" and photos all over the internet and e-mails. Now Toby is facing multiple lawsuits, from Henry Ball, and my be facing more from Savage Arms.
I have as many rounds thru smokeless powder muzzleloaders as Toby does, probably more. I have had absolutely no safety issues what so ever, in over 15 years of shooting smokeless powder muzzleloaders and 5+ years of shooting the Savage 10ML-II. Toby Bridges has the honor of being the only person to ever have a 10ML-II let go in any manner. Toby did something even Savage could not do, that is to totally blow a 10ML-II. Savage tried and tried, and finally gave up trying to blow one. They were able to bulged the barrel on a few, but never have they been able to blow. Neither has anyone else. There have been 3 or 4 people that have bugled their barrels, by double charging and leaving the ramrods in the bore, but their 10ML-II's never began to let go.
Just remember these facts, Toby Bridge's is not a gunsmith, machinist, engineer, or ballistician. He has absolutely zero, none, and nodda qualifications at all, for claiming that the Savage breech plug has so called short comings. All he has is a belly full of sour grapes and is the epitome of the disgruntled employee. In fact the breech plug in that 10ML-II never failed, and that very same breech plug is still in use at Savage Arms today in a test 10ML-II.
Bottom line is, the Savage 10ML-II is the strongest, safest, and most user friendly muzzleloader ever introduced. Just because it can safely be shot using smokeless powder, doesn't mean the it absolutely has to be shot strictly using smokeless powder. It can be shot with BP, Pyrodex, T-7, or any other johnny come lately so-called BP substitute. If the fact, that it can be shot safely with smokeless powder upsets some of the more bassackwards thinking people, then I guess you will just have to get over it, or die with one. The Savage 10ML-II is here to stay, whether you like it or not, and the future of the muzzleoading sport is, smokeless powder.
Check these great sites out for accurate and straight information, not ignorant opinions, uninformed rumors, and absurd ramblings, about the Savage 10ML-II.
February 16, 2005, 02:58 PM
1SHOT1KILL, as it pertains to the false or misleading information on the Savage10ml-II I could not have said it any better than you. Your experience and knowledge are second only to Henry’s himself. However, I would like to add a bit to the overall debate. Again, this is my humble opinion so let’s all keep that in mind.
Having grown up hunting the fields and woodlots of central and southern Indiana I’ve hunted may types of game animals and used many legal weapons to harvest them. The weapons used have been dictated by the game laws set forth by the state DNR and voted on in the state legislator. From my first rabbit harvested with a wrist-rocket sling shot at 10 years old to my most recent deer harvested in December of 2004 with my 10ML at 46. I’ve used the laws of my state, the knowledge of the area hunted, the knowledge of the game I’ve pursued, and the training with the weapon to make a clean ethical harvest.
Now if Indiana gave a special hunt to those using longbows over compound bows I would put down my PSE for the weekend and go buy the best longbow I could afford and practice reflex shooting to improve my skills. If Indiana went to a truly primitive black powder hunting season like some areas of the west and Pennsylvania then I would buy the best weapon of that particular legal description and become proficient enough to ethically harvest a deer using that weapon. It has been said by some who know me well that if we were to open a deer season where you dropped from a large limb with a knife in your teeth onto the back of a deer and with one quick slice created a clean harvest then I would be the first to sign up. That might or might not be true!
Hopefully this wondering tale of day’s gone bye and hunts still to come will show all of us that we are really all on the same side.
aka, Pat Allen
February 16, 2005, 03:34 PM
Smokeless powder has been used in ML arms for many years, beginning in the late 1890's up until the 1950's, when King's Semi-Smokeless went out of production.
The primary reason BP needs to be used in most ML arms is the design of them will not hold up under the increased pressures of smokeless powder.
The Savage rifle has undoubtedly been tested throughout its development, and after 6 years in production, is probably safe enough for all but the most dim-witted users.
I think what's really touching the open nerve here is the continued technology race toward the ultimate muzzleloading rifle, that shoots in all types of weather, with the accuracy of a modern hunting rifle.
I shoot traditional arms because I enjoy the nostalgia and challenge of competing with the old-time guns. Those shooting in-lines have no care for any of that, and use the most technologically advanced, modern arm that conforms to the letter of the law, with no regard for the "spirit."
This is an argument that will never go away; it's the old "they hate us, we hate them" mentality, and it will never be settled.
I suppose the day I want to use smokeless powder in a rifle, I'll just buy a Dakota or Jarrett and be done with it, leaving others to fool around with the hybrids.
February 18, 2005, 08:38 PM
The only smokeless I use: LEVI GARRETT.
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