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Winston Smith
May 18, 2004, 03:31 PM
How many here actually own fully auto guns? How much of a pain in the ass is it to jump through those hoops?

Johnny Guest
May 18, 2004, 03:48 PM
If you wish, I can happily outline the requirements we must meet here in Texas. Some states, however, just flat prohibit private ownership of machine guns, and BATFE will not approve the registration of such for a private individual living in such an area.

I stand to be corrected - - Hope I am, really - - but I think that California is one of those states where you just can't get it done. :(

Someone, please correct me.

Best regards,
Johnny

Schuey2002
May 18, 2004, 04:02 PM
Yeah, Johnny's right, I think C3 in Cali is a no go..

Hawkman
May 18, 2004, 08:20 PM
I am halfway through the hoops now on an M11/9 with suppressor. Waiting to hear from the ATF guys. The paperwork is not difficult; the only difficulties are 1) your state law; and given that 1) allows it, 2) getting the chief law enforcement officer of your county to sign off.

Georgia is a liberal gun state, but I did have to set up an interview with our county DA and let him know I was a responsible, law-abiding citizen who would do nothing that would harm his re-election chances! :p :barf:

falconer
May 18, 2004, 08:36 PM
I'm patiently waiting for the ATF to approve the corporate transfer of my friend's M16. Coincidently, I am an employee of said corporation and can play with it all I want.

444
May 18, 2004, 09:17 PM
Yes. I own a full auto firearm.
Depending on your local CLEO there is nothing to it. The "hoops" you have to jump through can be leaped in about an hour or two counting driving time.

Personally, I wouldn't do it again. Full Auto doesn't pull my chain. Maybe if I owned a lot better gun, but I don't really see the point. For the last two months I competed in a local machine gun match. I could have easily beat the best score there using my semi-auto AR15; faster times, better hits, less rounds fired, and a more effective cartridge.

guy sajer
May 18, 2004, 10:27 PM
A club member since '88 . :)

Benton
May 19, 2004, 12:38 AM
I just took transfer of a Vector full-size Uzi but haven't gotten to the range with it yet.

It is the first and likely last automatic firearm I'll ever own. I've shot subguns before, but like 444, the experience doesn't thrill me like it does so many people. I've mainly added it into my collection because I had nothing in that catagory of firearms.

The process of filing for transfer of Title II items is not particularly difficult (barring local legal prohibitations) and should not be an obstacle to anyone interested in buying an automatic firearm, Any-Other-Weapon, short-barrelled longarm, or suppressor. Among this classification, silencers are, for me, by far the most useful and enjoyable of the NFA items in my collection. They have made shooting much more fun for me. The reduced sound of gunfire has made it possible to shoot more often because of the lesser annoyance to others near my property.

Mikegunner
May 19, 2004, 07:45 AM
Luckily, West Virginia is a state that allows Class III weapons. I have 5 Class III items including a pre-ban Uzi Micro closed bolt with a firing rate of 1400 RPM. When I bought the gun, I also got a barrel adapter that converts the threads to that of a Mac 10 so I can attach a Bowers Suppressor. Only comment I can make is Thank God for Speed Loaders and Extra Magazines!! (I have over 50 30 round Uzi magazines)

Mike

MrPink
May 19, 2004, 09:30 AM
I own a few full auto guns. Unlike some others, I find full auto addictive. Letting loose a 30 round mag through my M16 shorty gets a big grin on my face: Fast and Flashy!!

Like others said, the process is actually pretty easy - its just a process and it takes time. Getting CLEO signoff can be tough for some, depending on locale. In Maryland, its easy - you turn the paperwork into the state police and wait (since it's a state and federal background check, transfers take longer). Like Tom Petty sang, the waiting is the hardest part.

Chipperman
May 19, 2004, 10:53 AM
I had to jump through more hoops than most. Living in MA, I had to get a state issued License to Possess Machine Guns. It's up to the CLEO's discretion if you will be given one. I, thankfully, had one of the Sergeants go to bat for me, which helped immensely.

I now have two-- MP5 sear, and an M16

It was well worth the hassle for me.

Johnny Guest
May 19, 2004, 12:17 PM
I very much enjoy owning and shooting a 1928 Thompson, West Hurley manufacture. I particularly like this model because of the versatility - - I can outfit it with the vertical foregrip, Type XX mags and Type L drum and have it in "depression era" configuration, or go with the horizontal forend, Kerr sling, and 30 round mags, for the "SGT Saunders of Combat" pattern. ;)

There is a local submachine gun match here about every other month, where a group of enthusiasts get together. Next one should be in July. I'll post it ahead of time.

Best,
Johnny

guy sajer
May 20, 2004, 08:37 AM
Me , I'm also stuck with the not very versatile M1 Savage ;)

.

Johnny Guest
May 20, 2004, 11:24 AM
- -But there's sure a lot of interest in the M1 and M1A1 Thompsons, what with the "Saving Private Ryan" movie and the "Band of Brothers" TV series.

I'd really like to locate one at a reasonable (read, "Felony Theft") price, but I fear those days are gone forever. Another option, especially for the re-enactors, is to locate one of the Semi versions of the M1, and jump thru the hoops and pay the tax to have it converted to a Short Barrelled Rifle - - Yeah, it wouldn't shoot full auto, but it would LOOK really good, and it WOULD shoot.

Caught a re-run of a BOB episode on The History Channel the other night, and I'm getting fired up again, to own an M3 Grease Gun. Why? I dunno . . .

Best,
Johnny

guy sajer
May 20, 2004, 11:52 AM
I was only joking . It's been a great gun .
Luckily , I bought it about 1990 when an average guy could afford one . It fires everything . Lead reloads either RN or SWC as well as hollow points . Milk jugs at 50 yds are easy prey . :cool:

LeadPumper
May 20, 2004, 12:17 PM
How much trouble is worth how much fun is always a subjective thing. As always, try before you buy.

For instance here in Maryland (for a private, not corporate transfer) it would go something like this:

*Find Class 3 dealer with firearm you want for a price you want to pay
*Pay dealer (plus $200 tax stamp)
*Fill out State paperwork
*Submit State paperwork with check
*Wait to see if CLEO signs off (he doesn’t have too)
*Get signed State paperwork back (usually 1 month later)
*Fill out Federal paperwork
*Get photographed
*Get fingerprinted
*Submit doubled checked Federal paperwork with attached photos and fingerprint cards (don't even think about using a red pen to fill them out!)
*Wait to see if anyone at the BATFE doesn’t like you
*Get a call from your dealer (usually 3-4 months later) telling you the paperwork’s come back
*Fill out final paperwork when picking up new toy (machine guns must be re-registered every year in MD)
*Buy lots of magazines and ammo
*Find a range that actually allows full auto fire
*See if what you've just spent 6 months and thousands of dollars on even works.

Would I do it all again?

Probably not.

But then again I like the suppressed FA Uzi I have, so I don't see anything else in my immediate future. But ya never know when I'll get that itch...

-LeadPumper

Chipperman
May 20, 2004, 12:31 PM
"Caught a re-run of a BOB episode on The History Channel the other night, and I'm getting fired up again, to own an M3 Grease Gun."

What's really sad is that an M3, which cost about 1/10 of the manufacturing cost of a Thompson is now worth the same or even more for some pieces.

Hkmp5sd
May 20, 2004, 06:06 PM
Have'm. Love'm. Want more. Only reason I don't buy more of them is the price is just too absurd. $15,000 for a gun that LEOs can buy for under $1000 is just stupid.

CleverNickname
May 20, 2004, 07:33 PM
I currently have a FA Uzi carbine, and last month just bought an FNC auto-sear which is currently on the way to my dealer. Two machineguns will probably be it for me, they're getting too expensive. If I got another machinegun though, I don't know what I'd want to get. After a subgun and an assault rifle, I guess the next logical thing would be a belt-fed, but I don't have anywhere near me where I could shoot one.

MeekAndMild
May 20, 2004, 09:53 PM
Winston, it varies, and I suspect a lot of the variance is purely political. When I was buying my Uzi they were having a problem with deliberately passive aggressive stalling by a Clinton appointee in the BATF office where the seller lived, so it took 5 months for what otherwise would have been a 3 week approval for a dealer to dealer transfer.

Then, shortly after the November election where Comrade Gore was rejected by the voters, they finally transferred it to my FFL. It took the usual 3 months for approval of my form 4, so I got it shortly after President Bush was inaugurated.

I have had further dealings with the BATF since then and find they are a lot more user friendly. I suppose it must have something to do with the improvement of the executive branch of the government.

trapshooter
May 21, 2004, 05:32 AM
Heck, it's easy. Just go out and buy one.....oh...yeah. Wrong country. Never mind. :eek: :)

Johnny Guest
May 21, 2004, 10:00 AM
Hkmp5sd wrote: Have'm. Love'm. Want more. Only reason I don't buy more of them is the price is just too absurd. $15,000 for a gun that LEOs can buy for under $1000 is just stupid. Firstly, I am in total agreement that it is WRONG that private individuals cannot walk into the gun shop and purchase ANY firearm they can afford. If they misuse their SBR or submachine gun, then charge, try, and punish the offender, same as would be done if a crime was committed with a LONG barrel rifle or a pistol. But, the gov't put one over on the public back in 1934, and subsequently, so we live with the restrictions we have. At least, until someone with a lotta time and money organizes a change in the laws nd regulations. But, I guess that belongs in Legal & Political forum . . .

But, anyhow, I must point out that LEOs cannot buy that gun to which you refer. Law enforcement AGENCIES may, correct, and I don't think THAT is right, either - - Okay, a significant discount for govt. purchase order, or bulk purchase, etc, maybe. B-U-U-T-T, the individual LE OFFICER cannot legally purchase such a gun, for personal use. Title must always reside with the agency, which may, in it's wisdom, issue the firearm to that officer, but the ofcr may NOT take it with him when leaving the agency.

I realize that accounting and inventory procedures vary from one outfit to another. With the large bureauracies, it is (usually) nearly impossible to get an SMG issued, unless a member of SWAT/Tac Squad/SRU/whatever. In small PDs, sometimes the Chief and his buddy the Asst Chief (maybe the only two paid officers in the town ;) ) will EACH have an M16 AND an MP5 that they treat as their own. But at the end of the day, retirement, discharge, expiration of contract or whatever, the full autos belong to the agency.

At different times, I've been "issued" an M1 Thompson, a Sten Gun, and an AK47, by my sheriff. But it was firmly understood that I just wanted to take them to the range and shoot 'em. And, y'know, when I finished and cleaned them throughly, I promptly returned them to the armory. Fun to shoot, yes, but they were not mine. No pride of ownership, no real sense of purpose - - I was not assigned to the Tac Team and having the gun(s) was not part of my duty. The old 870, yeah, maybe I'd use it to back up a patrol unit sometime, but NOT a machine gun.

Yeah, maybe our S.O. can buy MP5s for less than a grand, but I can't . . . .

Best,
Johnny

Hkmp5sd
May 21, 2004, 10:50 AM
I was using "LEOs" to imply "Law Enforcement/Government Agencies", not individual police officers. I know individual LEOs cannot purchase NFA weapons simply because of their job.

Poor wording on my part.

1KPerDay
May 21, 2004, 04:58 PM
I have an M11/9 with suppressor. In Utah, it was really no big deal. Printed and photographed at the cop station, interview with the County Sheriff (very supportive), pay for two class 3 tax stamps and wait a couple weeks for the feds to approve your paperwork.

It was a heck of a lot harder to get a simple licence-not-to-carry in Massachussetts. :rolleyes:

Holy crap that was a pain.

Oh, if you decide to get a suppressor, get a wipeless type (sionic, I think). Wipes are generally unavailable and expensive. You can buy the suppressor, but nobody will sell you wipes!?!!?!?!? :mad:

Hkmp5sd
May 21, 2004, 05:09 PM
You can buy the suppressor, but nobody will sell you wipes!?!!?!?!?
That is because ATF considers each individual wipe to be a suppressor all by itself.

1KPerDay
May 21, 2004, 05:53 PM
Stupid rule. Makes no sense. :rolleyes:

guy sajer
May 21, 2004, 10:12 PM
One only has to remember the source of the rules . That will pretty much sum it up . Remember , they're here to help us . :rolleyes:

RenegadeX
May 21, 2004, 10:19 PM
Oh, if you decide to get a suppressor, get a wipeless type (sionic, I think). Wipes are generally unavailable and expensive. You can buy the suppressor, but nobody will sell you wipes!?!!?!?!?

Wipe designs are old technology. The idea that the bullet actually touches something as it passes through the can is insane. Besides, they were only good for a few hundred rounds (or less), before they needed new wipes.

1KPerDay
May 22, 2004, 08:13 PM
Yes, yes. Unfortunately, I was not instructed in the proper way by my dealer. He just said, "Meh, you can make your own wipes."

Ummmm... yeeeeah. :rolleyes:

Sleuth
May 28, 2004, 04:42 PM
In keeping with my military arms collection, I have a 1928AC Thompson, a BAR, and a 1919A4. Noth'in says lovin like a belt in the 1919A4. The MP5 (W/can) is just for fun.

guy sajer
May 28, 2004, 05:02 PM
I miss my BAR :(

I had a Winchester M1918 . What's yours Sleuth ? Also sold my BSA Lewis M1914 .

Sleuth
June 1, 2004, 11:43 AM
Mine is a Group Industries - which is a good thing, as I am NOT reluctant to shoot it. And I got a great deal on it, about 10 years ago.

FirstFreedom
June 7, 2004, 04:20 PM
I've never had a class III license or weapon, but in analyzing the situation from my viewpoint, I've come to a couple of general observations:

1. The cost of the license itself is not so bad; nor does the red tape seem too extensive. BUT, unfortunately, what's prohibitive is the actual cost of the WEAPONS to non-LEO's. On a principle basis, and a budget basis both, I refuse to pay $5,000 to $15,000 for the exact same weapon that my local LEOA can get for $525.

2. My gun range doesn't allow full auto, license or not, so what's the point until I can buy some land of my own? Ostensibly, the reason behind the prohibition is that the muzzle climb in the hands of a noob will result in bullets flying over the berm and land on the neighbors a mile down the way...

Also, BTW, you're obviously going to have trouble if you have any felonies or domestic violence misdemeanors or even a domestic civil TRO. Not sure about other misdemeanors. I don't have a problem there, but some do....

Also, word to the wise: don't ever, in any way, file down the sear on a Bushy M17 Bullpup like I did, or you WILL have a full-auto rifle on your hands, like it or not, and no select-fire option for semi auto (I did not like it one bit, specially since I have no license for same). There is NO room on that sear for getting a better trigger without going full auto. NONE. I went through 3 sears before giving up on a better trigger. If you want a good trigger, get a different rifle. But don't take even a few thousandths off the m17 sear, or you'll be sorry.

Sleuth
June 7, 2004, 04:58 PM
First, let me clarify that you do not get a license to own, you purchase a stamp (remember the Stamp Act????) for each C3 gun. You cannot buy the stamp with any felonys or a DV order.
Licencees (dealers) get to by pre and post samples at much lower prices, but you need to be activly engaged in the bussiness.
Too bad there is no place near you to shoot C3 - they are FUN.

RenegadeX
June 7, 2004, 05:21 PM
1. The cost of the license itself is not so bad; nor does the red tape seem too extensive. BUT, unfortunately, what's prohibitive is the actual cost of the WEAPONS to non-LEO's. On a principle basis, and a budget basis both, I refuse to pay $5,000 to $15,000 for the exact same weapon that my local LEOA can get for $525.


While this is true, it is also true that in 3 years that LEO weapon will sell for $100 less than when it was new, and your weapon will sell for $5000 more than whatever you paid for it.

Don't view it as a gun, view it as an investment.


Also, BTW, you're obviously going to have trouble if you have any felonies or domestic violence misdemeanors or even a domestic civil TRO. Not sure about other misdemeanors. I don't have a problem there, but some do....


If you have felonies or DVs you can not own a semi-auto weapon either, so there is no difference with regards to disqualifiers.

Chipperman
June 8, 2004, 08:50 PM
"If you have felonies or DVs you can not own a semi-auto weapon either, so there is no difference with regards to disqualifiers."

That's not exactly true, if you count age as a disqualifier.

From Full-auto.com:
• WHO CAN OWN A MACHINE GUN?
GENERALLY IF YOU MEET THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA YOU CAN OWN A MACHINEGUN. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW OWNERSHIP OF NFA ITEMS, PLEASE CHECK OUR STATE LAWS LIST HERE.
1. OVER 21 YEARS OF AGE
2. NO DISHONORABLE DISCHARGED FROM THE ARMED SERVICES
3. NOT AN ALIEN ILLEGALLY IN THE U.S.
4. NOT ADJUDICATED MENTALLY DEFECTIVE, OR COMMITTED TO A MENTAL INSTITUTION
5. NOT AN UNLAWFUL USER OF DRUGS OR CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES
6. NEVER RENOUNCED YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP
7. NOT A FUGITIVE FROM JUSTICE
8. NOT UNDER INDICTMENT FOR A CRIME PUNISHABLE BY MORE THAN A YEAR
9. NOT CONVICTED OF A CRIME WHERE YOU COULD HAVE BEEN SENTENCED FOR MORE THAN A YEAR. USUALLY A FELONY.
10. NOT SUBJECT TO A COURT ORDER RESTRAINING YOU FROM HARASSING, STALKING, OR THREATENING AN INTIMATE PARTNER OR CHILD OF SUCH PARTNER.

MeekAndMild
June 8, 2004, 09:37 PM
While this is true, it is also true that in 3 years that LEO weapon will sell for $100 less than when it was new, and your weapon will sell for $5000 more than whatever you paid for it. That is really kind of scary. My SMG has doubled in value in 4 years. On a smaller scale of things that is better than paintings, gold and diamonds in the same time frame.