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View Full Version : Is there such a thing as a F/A grenade launcher?


Jamie Young
December 15, 2002, 02:26 AM
I saw the most bizaar looking machine gun on the BBC news last week. Several American soldiers somewhere in Africa were guarding some kind of shipping dock. I got a glimpse of an American Marine on a Humvee with a belt fed machine gun. The gun had these giant mushroom looking shells. They looke more like grenades than bullets.

It was no .50 cal either.

Cal4D4
December 15, 2002, 02:52 AM
Isn't there a 40MM BOFORS or some such? I think the Spectre gunship carried one.

Tamara
December 15, 2002, 03:35 AM
What you saw was a Mk. 19 40mm belt-fed AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher) or, as they're now called, GMGs (Grenade Machine Guns).

Interesting story: Back before the '86 ban went into effect, some dude at SACO saw the writing on the wall, yanked one off the line, and put it on a form 4. It was just up for sale in Shotgun News last year. Price? "Serious Inquiries Only". Rumour has it that the thing went for six figures. Each round (if you can find 'em) is a DD. That's gotta be some $$$ to shoot.:eek:

DrDremel
December 15, 2002, 10:00 AM
I was in Canada and they don't consider the grenade launchers to even be firearms because the velocity of the round is too slow. Maybe I should get a cabin and buy one up there. The round for the MK19 are a higher pressure round than the m203/m79 rounds.

ACP230
December 15, 2002, 11:03 AM
I think the ChiComs have a auto grenade launcher too. Can't recall the name or number, maybe someone else can.

mons-meg
December 15, 2002, 12:45 PM
I didn't realize the MK19 round was any different? I thought it was the standard 40mm but linked together?

Don't they make a flechette AP round for the 203? hmmm

mons-meg
December 15, 2002, 12:48 PM
For those of you playing at home, the cyclic rate of fire of the Mk19 is around 350/minute.

Also, my old gunny told me in Desert Storm that they actually developed a TFT (tabular firing table...artillery nerds will know what I mean) for the 40mm for indirect fire applications.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it...

Tamara
December 15, 2002, 03:15 PM
So do the Russkies: the AGS-17, I think it's called... :)

Schuey2002
December 15, 2002, 03:23 PM
So do the Germans. Namely Heckler & Koch.
Heres the GMG,(Granat Maschinengewehr) in 40mmx53.
http://www.hkpro.com/image/gmgcover.jpg

Plus,a lightweight version is planned,the GMW,light.
(Leichtgewicht Granatmaschinenwaffe)also in 40mmx53.
http://www.hkpro.com/image/gmwfront.jpg
GMG cyclic rate is 330 rpm,while the GMW is 350 rpm. ;)

KSFreeman
December 15, 2002, 04:57 PM
Tamara, esho raz, eta pravda, devushka. Sometimes called "pauk", aka "the spider" a nickname from Central America and African clients.

What are you doing reading Soviet FMs again?:D Let me tell you where THAT will get you (riffed).:D

That Dutch bugger looks really nifty. Anyone shot one?

Jamie Young
December 15, 2002, 06:52 PM
That was it, Tamara.

I learn something new everyday.:)

ACP230
December 15, 2002, 07:18 PM
I am in the grip of a fit of aquisitiveness!

Too bad there aren't any C&R 40 MM FA guns out there.

(Too bad I'm too broke to buy even a .40 S&W BHP at the moment.)

Jeff White
December 15, 2002, 10:22 PM
MK19 shoots a high pressure grenade. DON'T de-link MK19 grenades and fire in your M79 or M203...

Yes there is a TFT for the MK19. Most fun cupola mount for your HMMWV? MK19 on the front, M249 on the back...Of course you need the bigger engine, especially if you've got the armor package..all that ammo is heavy :)

Jeff

Benjamin
December 16, 2002, 02:54 AM
Owing to the absence of a pistol grip protruding conspicuously beneath the action, would the Mk19 be California legal?

Schuey2002
December 16, 2002, 03:03 AM
Probably not..

9x19mm
December 18, 2002, 02:24 PM
Are there any pre-ban hi caps for these? :D

Schuey2002
December 18, 2002, 03:01 PM
:D LOL :D

Dont' forget, you can find alot of us moving to:

www.gun-talk.com

I never thought that I would ever have to use the word
"move" when it came to this site...:( :(

C'mon over and check it out...:)

buzz_knox
December 18, 2002, 04:36 PM
The AGS-17 was nicknamed the "Plamya" or "flame" as I recall. Russia now has the AGS-30 30mm grenade launcher for sale.

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, The ChiCom version is a bit different. It is configured almost like an LMG or SAW, with a stock. It's also more portable than either the AGS-17 or Mk19.

KSFreeman
December 18, 2002, 09:47 PM
buzz, if memory serves you are correct, but that was the native nickname.

The spider was brought over from Central America and African clients.

Jamie Young
December 18, 2002, 10:50 PM
That thing looks like a bitch to move. I would think it would only be practical on a vehicle. I think moving a mortar around would be easier than that thing. Can you imagine moving the ammo can around that holds 200 grenades?:eek:

We didn't have them in Somalia did we?

SandMan_7.62
December 20, 2002, 07:56 PM
We didn't have them in Somalia did we?

From what the book says, they had a couple MK19's on some of their Humvees in the rescue convoy. One part of the book describes how the gunner began shooting grenades into the open windows of the buildings that they were taking fire from. It was quite effective. :cool:

Jeff White
December 20, 2002, 08:26 PM
That thing looks like a bitch to move. I would think it would only be practical on a vehicle.

It's definately not a man-pack weapon. The ground mount is the same tripod that the M2 .50 caliber MG uses.

There is a great cupola mount for the HMMWV for the MK19. MK19 on one end, M249 SAW on the other :cool: .

Jeff

4V50 Gary
December 20, 2002, 09:08 PM
Look at the blue color grenades in the picture Schuey posted. Reminds me of blue plastic blanks/training rounds. :D

abelew
November 30, 2004, 08:03 AM
Large, tripod or vehicle mounted fully automatic grenade launcher. They are big, bulky, requiring 2 people to carry it. We had them in the USAF (security forces) and they were used as our heavy support fire weapon. Not sure how they perform, as we never launched any rounds. Comforting though, decent range, and (on paper) good capablity to kill people and break their stuff. :eek: :D

mdavid01
November 30, 2004, 09:56 AM
The thing is a heavy beast however it is possible to break it down into pieces and jump it using several troops. Jumping the barrell in the weapon kit strapped to your side is not the funnest experience.

gifted
December 1, 2004, 11:16 PM
Just about everyone is making them. Very nice for direct fire support, and can apparently be used as indirect fire support, making it more flexible than a mortar. Having looked around at them a while back, it seemed to be a new thing. Don't know if it's good or bad.

If you watch the news, you'll see a good number of Mk-19s on the HMMWVs. And I was told once that they have teething trouble, requiring some amount of adjustment before being able to be fielded.

CQBArms
December 4, 2004, 10:57 PM
ANyone that can legally own one, let me know I think we can put the only M19 that is transferable in the US in you hands for something like $200K plus a fee.

gifted
December 5, 2004, 05:01 PM
Last I heard it was going for more than 450k. I might be mixing it up with a minigun though.

PMDW
December 5, 2004, 10:44 PM
last I saw miniguns were around 250K anr the MK19 was 350K. That aws a year or so ago, so I imagine it's much higher now.

Gothiq
December 6, 2004, 11:34 PM
just an aside the mk 19 can fire m203/m79 rounds but not the reverse much like the 38 special in 357 mag but not vice versa issue the fun thing in the marines with the mk 19 was watching the WMs having to put both feet on the breech plate and yank with both hands to cock the buggers LOL

"if my memory serves its been awhile"
stats:
date adopted 1980
length 103 cm
wt empty 35kg
wt loaded with 50 rd belt 55kg
cal 40mmx114mm
muzzel vel 787 fps
burst radius of he rd 10 mtr
min armimg range of explosive rds 13m
effective range 1600m (indirect fire 400 m direct fire)
max range 3100 mtr
rate of fire 350-375 rpm

as an aside the first fa 40mm adopted bt the us was the drum fed m 174e3 adoted in 1972 it fired standard m/79 rounds from a 12 round drum and was meant to be man portable much moreso then the mk 19

abelew
December 11, 2004, 07:22 PM
Gothig you are right about the mk19 being able to shoot m203 rounds, but not the reverse. Mk19 rounds are much higher pressure (HEDP) than m203 rounds (as the m203 has an aluminum tube). Trying to shoot a HEDP from a m203 would be the most amazing KB possiable I think ;)

USMCbulletsponge
December 29, 2004, 03:08 PM
Boys, I can assure you there are few finer joys in life than lighting up an alleyway or building full of little muj badguys scrambling for their life while you press the thumb release unleashing a steady stream of grenades. ooooh. i get giddy just thinkin about it. its hard to decide which is more fun. shooting badguys with the mk19 or the 50cal. the mk19 makes alot of smoke and dust so its hard to see where all the little bits of people go. of course badguys still "pop when ya shoot em" with the 50cal, too...often leaving a badguy's lower half just sitting there wondering where his upper half has gone to.
Thank You, God.

WEAPONS COMPANY...KEEPIN IT REAL.

gifted
December 29, 2004, 05:32 PM
Would you have to manually cycle the Mk19 for each 203 round you put through it? It seems to me you probably wouldn't have enough pressure to do so.

PsychoSword
December 29, 2004, 05:33 PM
What happens if you get a squib load while rattling off in full auto :eek:
KABOOM!!!!

:(

Tamara
December 31, 2004, 09:07 AM
What happens if you get a squib load while rattling off in full auto :eek:
KABOOM!!!!

The fuzes are spin-armed.

FirstFreedom
December 31, 2004, 10:37 AM
USMC bulletsponge - hilarious. Anyone else remember that character from "Full Metal Jacket" - the badass dude that Joker had a run-in with, who was in the unit that he was assigned to, in the last scenes of the movie? And the chopper door-gunner dude as well, for that matter. USMC, I can almost picture you firing with a madman's grin....tee hee.

USMCbulletsponge
December 31, 2004, 01:59 PM
Gifted, my special friend...the MK19 does not fire the same 40mm grenade used in the 203. you COULD fire the 203 round through a MK19 but it would not extract and you would have to pry the empty casing out with your fingers or a leatherman. not very practical. i can also shoot battle rockets through my M16, but there's not much reason to. on the MK19, you rack it once and press the butterfly thumb release (trigger), you're now condition 3, rack it again and you're in conditon 1. Mess this up, and you're blowin up the humvee in front of you. once in condition 1 you only need press the trigger and you can send 40mm linked grenades right through the sheet metal of a car, then explode. if you get to close to your target the grenades wont arm and its like a giant 40mm slug. its not the same show as exploding grenades but its still plenty fun. i heartily recommend this to anyone at home.

USMCbulletsponge
December 31, 2004, 02:05 PM
Freedom...I don't know why it is, but there is a very special joy one can experience while here on earth. All you have to do is find some truly, truly bad people...then punish them with all the powerful weapons God and government has bestowed on you. Try this sober at first. Just to get the hang of it. then feel free to add something that says "you," to create your own style of vengeance. Enjoy!

gifted
December 31, 2004, 04:21 PM
I figured something like that, USMCbulletsponge. Be a real bad time when you have to do it.

Went to a turkey shoot once, we got there too late to see the guns go off, but we got to watch them extract a grenade from a mk19. EOD stuck it in a lump of C4, took it out on the range and let her go. Quite the firecracker.

tanstaafl4y
January 4, 2005, 02:28 PM
The term HEDP (used in an earlier post) refers to "High Explosive, Dual Purpose" Meaning Personel and lightly armored vehicles. This is in contrast to HE which is for anti-personel (Also effective against "comercial" type vehicles). Just to throw out a another acronyms I learned during my 9 years on active duty HEAT=High Explosive Anti Tank.

The Ammo for the MK-19 is higher pressured than the M203 ammo. The MK-19 Ammo has a high pressure and a low pressure area inside of the caseing. The high pressure area withstands 40,000 (Forty thousand) psi. It is difused to the low pressure area.

1)Lets see how I can describe this. Take a McDonalds Supersized cup and place in on the countertop in the normal fashion.

2)Take 2 childs-sized cups poke 7 holes in the bottom of those cups. Place one into the other and twist so the holes are not aligned with each other.

3)Put the child-sized cups upside down and inside the supersized cup

4)Put a big potato on top of the supersized cup and voila! you have an improvised model of the MK-19 round.

The area inside of the childs cups is the high pressure area and the area under the potato is the low pressure area.

FirstFreedom
January 5, 2005, 01:05 PM
If I join the US Mil, I want to be in USMCBulletSponge's unit! You're one of a kind sir...lol. :)

shaggy
January 13, 2005, 05:04 PM
For those of you seriously interested, a registered and transferable MK19 GMG was recently advertised for sale on sturmgewehr - I think the price was $600,000. (+tax & shipping)

M198
June 9, 2005, 01:09 PM
a mk19 for 600 grand? in my experience with the mk19, it jams too easily (especially in iraq w/ a lot of dust flying around), a little too bulky, only has 25 round belts, and is not my prefered method of engagement. of course, i like to be a few mile away shooting my howitzer, but i did do convoy security missions in baghdad. now on the issue with the tft, it would take too long to get the correct data on the gun given the t/e that you have is not defective, plus you have to compensate for diff. of elevat. and so forth. now with the mortar not being able to do direct fire, the 60mm mortar has a hand-held mode and can be shot direct fire at a target in the hand operated mode given you put the bottom on something sturdy like a wall or tree. now with shooting a mk19 round from a m203. its like tripling the powder in the round. the m203 breech cannot stand the pressure that will be put off, and it will mess your hand up.

Fred Hansen
June 9, 2005, 06:20 PM
Thank You, God.

Amen!!!

:D

TPAW
June 9, 2005, 07:35 PM
And you can still get on a plane with a pen or pencil. Makes a great weapon. Especially if pushed into the eye and right into the brain! Through the ear is just as deadly. I saw it happen to a guy one time. You don't die instantly, but you are immediately rendered a vegatable.
I remember it from the Army many moons ago.

mrclark439
August 30, 2005, 05:29 AM
I have a single MK19 round if anyone wants it

fal308
August 30, 2005, 07:33 AM
If you're in the USA and the round is not registered, you have something that is worth a hefty fine and quite a bit of time courtesy of Uncle Sam's "hotel".

3 weelin geezer
August 30, 2005, 08:54 AM
Yeah, and I have a couple of pinapple grenades. One sits on my desk. Those who think I should not have it, can take a number to complain. Gotta go------> ZOOMMMM!

CypherNinja
September 6, 2005, 01:22 AM
tanstaafl4y:
http://home.comcast.net/~jparis44/pics/1123444548424.jpg

How's that? :D

Dunno what round it is (if its even a US round), but its all good, right? :D

STLRN
September 6, 2005, 06:57 AM
M198

You are a Gunnery Instructor at CPen? Are you at ATS?

Indirect with it is pretty easy, you adjust it in just like you do arty. The FO has to understand that, its dispersion is pretty big because of lack of dampening on the Mk64. Drift really isn't big till you get to around 1800 meters, beyond that you have added it to the first adjust burst, but just like a Adj mission you don't readdress drift with subs. QE is a little harder to get on the initial adj round since they don't have gunner's quadrants, but what I have used in the past is to put the M2 compass on the feed tray prior to firing an adjusting burst and than using the elevation wheel on the TE for subsequent adjustments.

Lucky 7
September 6, 2005, 09:08 AM
We go to fire one in School of Infantry and I gotta say its flippin sweet!
Realistical youll only get about 30 to 60 rounds a minute outta the thing. Oh and be careful, cock the dual charging handle wrong and oopps! off goes a thumb!
Semper Fi!
-L7

Caeser22
December 16, 2005, 01:10 PM
m198 you got screwed we had 88 round belts :D for our mk19s over in the sandbox. convoys suck i had the same duty over there and also would 've rather been humping them 155s in my paladin. hooah and oorah to the king of battle.

The British Soldier
December 16, 2005, 04:43 PM
Mk.19 is a fantastis weapon and the concept is brilliant too, which is probably why it has been heavily copied. We Brits have them mounted on the M3 tripod or on the back of the Land Rover patrol vehicle. On a job in Africa we were engaging at 1500metres with the Mk.19s; it was a wierd experience shooting bursts of those 40mm grenades. You could fire them, get off the vehicle and make a cup of tea, enjoy a few sandwiches, go out for a couple of beers and be back just in time to see them all exploding a mile away!

The effect at the distant end was fantastic!

The only place we really didn't like them was in Norway, because they don't explode in the snow!

Caeser22
December 21, 2005, 02:25 PM
b4 i went over to the sandbox. the qualification range went all the way out to 2100 meters or so :eek: . i couldn't hit anything past 1700 meters though :D but i still qualified expert

DocFox
December 23, 2005, 11:05 AM
Why did you guys have to bring up the MK19?.... Now there are tears in my eyes as I remember the joys of it... snnniiifff....At least I have the memories

Deadman
December 27, 2005, 07:04 PM
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/crewserved/mg_35.asp

Webpage for the Chinese agl.

avball
December 29, 2005, 03:49 PM
YMMV, but I was chilling by the armory one day talking to a buddy (armorer) about this very thing, and he didn't think it would chamber - he tried it, and it did not. Pretty decent little no brainer safety mechanism there, just make the round such that it won't chamber properly in something that might kB on you :P

Of course, I wouldn't try to fire one if it did fit, but maybe guys will feel a little better knowing that the wrong round shouldn't be able to chamber into a 203.

grndpndr
February 5, 2006, 04:36 PM
Cypherninja,that would be a Hedp round,notice the copper funnel shaped liner.
An old TM i have claims the MK19 HEDP round will penetrate 2 in of armor!?:D

CypherNinja
February 5, 2006, 09:47 PM
:cool: :cool: :cool:

I knew it was a shaped charge (hard to miss that). I just wasn't sure if it was for a MK19 or not.

grndpndr
February 7, 2006, 04:11 PM
My apologys for stating the obvious,have i stumbled onto one of those sites that delight in flaming new members?
Quote: "I dunno what round it is(if its even a US round)" indicates ignorance,I was trying to be helpful,my apologys for attempting to answer what was to me apparently a question.
Cartridge 40mm HEDP M433; OD aluminum skirt w/steel cup attached white markings and gold ogive

Lord_Nikon
February 7, 2006, 11:55 PM
grndpndr, you didn't really identify the round, you just pointed out the general typ. That's like someone posting pictures of a handgun asking for help identifying the make and model, and you respond, "Oh, it's a revolver!"

CypherNinja
February 8, 2006, 12:09 AM
Oh dude, sorry. I didn't mean it like that. :o

Explosives that chamber in a full-auto are all pretty sweet.:D

grndpndr
February 8, 2006, 08:28 AM
Being new her i dont want to get off on the wrong foot so if i offended my apologys.From whaty i could gather from the net it doesnt appear to be US
either so that leaves chinese /russian and i would have no idea which.I also thought US had a type u\of spring steel coil arrangement around the grenade to provide shrapnel.I am not sure what caliber the russ is,35mm? Any way i am curious now and intend to search to see if i can find theanswer,the fuze may be the answer.Again in :D didnt intend to offend it was late and perhaps I took it the wrong way

Chaingunner
March 2, 2006, 01:41 PM
So I should PROBABLY have read to the end of the thread before replying to a post at the beginning of it, but I'm kinda pressed for time so I'll get right to it:

MK19 rounds are only for the Mk19. Imagine my chain of command's surprise when they decided to requisition some 40mm from the 13th MEU while we were on deployment, thinking that they would surprise the armory staff by giving us 40mm ammo to fire out of our ancient M79s, only to have me tell them "mk19 ammo can't be used in the M79. The rounds are linked and the cases are a different length, anyway."

They weren't happy.

5whiskey
March 20, 2006, 10:57 PM
Don't know about the length and weight, I just know it's too heavy for anything except for using on a gun-truck.

The min arming distance is 17 meters, but in all practicallity, it's more like 25. I saw an ND into hesco barrier 22 meters away and it didn't blow. It works off of a centrifugal fuse that requires 3 rotations, I think. DP is 2" of steel, and DP is about all the ammo you get anyway, unless they make orange death for it. I know they make orange death for 203's, I'm not sure about 19's.

The only package I've seen rounds come in is an ammo can with 36 rounds, but in invasion of fallujah everyone rigged a can on the side of the turret so they could have two cans linked together (linking grenades is a pain in the butt).

Very fun weapon. Nothing says "I hate you and hope you die" quite like a GMG, though the ma duece with APITS come close. Excellent for indirect fire, but I wouldn't call in the same format as other supporting arms. You still need an FO with some good sense, most gunners I know of aren't exactly squad leaders or platoon seargents. Point being they probably aren't familiar with how an FDC works. If the gunner can't get eyes on, the FO needs to know the gunners pos so they can relay correction in relation to the gunners pos and not the FO's.

Alright, good 'nough for now.

Chaingunner
March 26, 2006, 09:44 PM
Wheeler0351 says
Very fun weapon. Nothing says "I hate you and hope you die" quite like a GMG, though the ma duece with APITS come close.


...except for the Mk38Mod1 25mm machine gun system loaded with SAPHEI-T... yes, that DOES, in fact, stand for Semi Armor Piercing High Explosive Incendiary-Tracer.

:D