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IamNOTaNUT
November 28, 2002, 08:02 PM
The indoor PPC (Michigan is cold in the winter, hence the INDOOR vcersion of the sport) season is about to kick off and I could use some help.

I am fairly competent with the standing positions, but when I get down into the sitting, kneeling, and prone positions, my groups open way up. Do any of you have any suggestions for these positions? I know there are a number of variations, what works for you?

Thanks from a lowly 568/600 shooter.

ACP230
November 30, 2002, 01:32 PM
I always shot too fast when I was in PPC matches. Try slowing down a bit in the positions that are giving you trouble.

IamNOTaNUT
December 2, 2002, 12:19 AM
I did have that problem in my first few matches. I would be done shooting with like 50 seconds left on the clock. I have learned to slow down, but I have still not found a stabil, comfortable, and repeatable position from which to shoot the ground stages. Any help out there?

Archie
December 8, 2002, 10:01 PM
Kneeling:
Don't fight yourself. If you shoot well offhand, take one knee and shoot from a modified offhand stance. Don't try to put your elbow on your knee or something like a rifle position.

Prone:
Check and see if you do better straight on to the target or somewhat sideways. (What the IPSC guys call "roll-over".) Also, make sure the butt of the revolver is not on the ground.

Sitting is my worst. I'm too fat to do the "grab your knee" routine. I can sort of get into position (which looks like a walrus attempting to .... never mind) but then I can't breathe. So I usually just sit down and shoot from a modified offhand position.

In all cases, you need to shoot several groups exclusively from that position. For example in match 3, you need to shoot groups from sitting exclusively. If you shoot sitting, prone, r & l barricade, you don't know what shots went where.

If you can find someone to coach you, or just observe what you are doing, that will often correct problems you don't see.

IamNOTaNUT
December 8, 2002, 10:47 PM
Ahhhh, a fellow PPC shooter. I think I have the sitting "grab your knee" position figured out, but the others remain a mystery.

I shoot prone sort of sideways like I learned for a rifle in the Army. I note that you suck up a lot of smoke in this position. The kneeling position is beyond me. Do I sit on my foot, do I not sit on my foot, do I crouch, etc. All confucing.

It would seem that resting your arm on your leg would give you a more stable platform, but it just doesn't work for me.

I shot a match this weekend and had a rather dissappointing score of 543 - 13 X out of 600. I have done much better than this in the past, but just can't seem to find the groove lately. Thanks for your comments.

Archie
December 9, 2002, 07:07 PM
Get down on both knees and pretend you're shooting offhand. The elbow on the knee thing that works in rifle just doesn't help in handgun.

Don't worry about the rest of it.

john kilgore
December 11, 2002, 11:28 AM
ARCHIE is right about the 25yd kneeling position. The same as standing off-hand- on both knees.
The key is to KISS, keep it simple.........

For two hand unsupported: use same modified isocles position.
For kneeling, same, except for on both knees, cheek of butt on heels, heels together.

For right and left barricade, use either knuckle against barricade, or back of hand against barricade (I prefer back of hand, either way, a rough barricade will chew on you), -still same modified isocles position and grip!!

Sitting: the left knee up, the arms around the knee, -same grip as kneeling, only using left knee as "rest", with base of grip in groove below knee cap. The right ankle should lock the left fore-foot with right knee resting on ground. (Some shooters use boot on one foot, athletic shoe on other. First person I saw use this was B.N.Curtis of Sec. Ser. I prefer running/athletic shoe on both feet and light colored to keep down the heat in the Southern U.S. summer heat.)

Prone: I prefer to lie flat, again using a modified isocles adapted to lying down. I use only a slight angle to left with my feet. The right foot can be hooked over the inside of the left knee joint if it helps but I prefer to have the most ground contact I can for increased stability. The roll-over position is for those with large mid-sections and can't breath in the flat-prone position.

Shooting indoors is a little different in that the lighting is problematic. Also, the sight settings for the reduced target simulating the 50yd line are different, but your scores should be about the same.

A suggestion for going from 560's to 590's,.......and 13XX's to 149X's........
1. dry fire
2. dry fire
3. dry fire some more !!!!!!!!

If your guns and ammo are up to it (1490's), any thing over 1,000 rds a month in practice is worse than wasted, range work should only be to refine loads/guns, and to "proof" the dry-firing.

4. Shoot lots of matches !!!!!

5. Watch and talk to/listen to the other shooters in Hi-Master class.
(forget the perennial sharp-shooters to expert class shooters, -they aren't interested in improving)

I use a reduced shilouette (off MasterArms ammo -case sized box) to practice the positions, and use door jambs in hallway for barricades, and always time the position.
My wife hates the Click, click.click,click,click,click......repeated 2-3 hundred times, usually 3-4 nights a week, and more often before matches !!!!
(She really enjoys the awards banquets/ceremonies though !)
-work on a consistent grip, and smooth straight-thru trigger pull.
Trying to stage the trigger to "pick-off your shots" will only result in flyers in the 8-ring.
(Been there done that !!!)

Hope to See you at Jackson, Ms next September !!!!
There are several Chicago PD guys that come down every year. A retired MI state trooper shoots with his wife (Kathy Schroeder) in our GA league and "follows" her to the matches- an inside joke- she outshoots him usually and a bunch of the rest of us too!!
Hope your'e in the HighMaster class by then too !!!!

(I'm Semi-Auto and Revolver Distinguished , HighMaster)

IamNOTaNUT
December 12, 2002, 05:33 PM
Thanks, John.

I see your point on the dry fire. It is something that I don't do very often. After my last match (miserable) I began working at it for 15 minutes a day after the kids have gone to bed. Hopefully that will help.

So your recommendation, like Archie, is to just sit on my heels in the kneeling position and shoot offhand? I cuold have sworn there was some secret position that would give me a nice tight lock-up. I guess not.

I have tried using my left knee to support my off-side arm and have always had lousy groups. I have shot better off-hand, but keep trying to work on a supported position because it "makes sense" that with practice the supported position would be more consistent. I guess I will not worry about that any more.

As far as the sitting position is concerned, I still need to find the sweet spot on my left knee that will allow me to hold the gun comfortably and securely. Right now I am either comfortable, with a weak hold on the gun, or secure, but uncomfortable. I'll keep working on it.

Jackson could be a pretty cool trip. Who knows what the future holds.

Thanks for your help!

john kilgore
December 13, 2002, 09:15 AM
The prone and sitting positions can be problematic if your grips don't accomodate a proper position. This could be your problem with these positions.

Many of the "fad" grips, especially those for some of the "action" disciplines are utter failures for any discipline requiring a modicum of precision. Try a pair of the "Davis" grips. They are inexpensive at about $15.00 from Brownells (10.00 if you have a dealer acct.). I have a pair on all my guns from the 2-1/2" to the Unlimited revolver. The extended base of the Davis will fit nicely into the furrow above the knee. Again, its consistency that counts.
And that is what the practice is all about.

If the Davis don't work for you, you can try the Hogue's, but I really don't like any of the finger groove grips as they are always far too large for my hand to work properly.

No matter what your classification, there is something for you at Jackson. Just realize that there are a lot of "sandbaggers" show up and make their classification jumps there and win the "goodies" in process by shooting "out of class" scores.

Archie
December 19, 2002, 05:48 PM
If I'm recalling correctly (harder and harder each day), if'n your butt is supported, you're setting. I just kneel on both knees, (prayer position) and shoot just I would offhand.

John Kilgore, is that kneeling if your butt is on your feet (heels)?
If that's legal, better yet.

My biggest problem is my geometry is wrong for the sitting position. If I get low enough to wrap my arms around my knee, two things happen: I can't breathe (too fat) and I roll backwards until my left leg and gun is pointing straight up! Personal problem.

IamNOTaNUT
December 20, 2002, 08:03 AM
As long as your butt is not touching the ground, it qualifies as kneeling, sou you can lean back and let your butt rest on your heels.

I had a friend come over last night to help give me some pointers. Helped quite a bit with everything except kneeling. My ankles are not flexible and almost every iteration of this technique was very painful. So I will follow the above advice for now, shooting it more off hand style while kneeling on both knees, and beging stretching to develop some flexibility. Who knows, by this time next year I might be able to do this!

Of course you guys won't hear about it thendue to the closure. Thanks anyway for the help. It is always good to talk to people who respect the "old school."

john kilgore
December 20, 2002, 01:06 PM
Archie was correct, as long as you are on your knees and feet/toes, it is not sitting.
In the shot gun match, I use the NRA classical kneeling where you're sitting on the side ways foot/heel with it in the "crack". It worked really well for me this year at the 45yd line- I cleaned the course. I think I was the first one to use it. My brother coached me into it. He's shot a lot of HighPower and taught me the off-hand and kneeling positions. So much to learn still !!!
Look me up at the Nationals this coming September. Lord willing, and If the Hurricanes don't don't swamp us, I'll be there.
Good Luck with the coming season !!!