Do you believe you're a good enough shot?

[jrsower]

At our range we have some "realistic" targets with a hostage holding a GG in front of him, gun to head, etc. You know what I'm talking about. There's really only the BG's head showing and it's right next to the GG's head.

What I want to know is, at 10 or 15 yards, are you good enough to draw as quickly as you can from full concealment and put one in BG's gourd without killing the hostage? I'm talking less than 2 seconds, preferably much faster.

I am not.

[kungfool]

I haven't been able to shoot enough for the last few years.....no way I'm anywhere near that kind of a shot now, if I ever was.......but that's the way I plan to start practicing...soon.

[HS/LD]

Sure!

I'll give it a go!
Whats the worst that could happen.

HS/LD

[one-shot-one]

could've said yes right up to the 2 sec. or faster rule. if you got to do somthing that fast in that situation pull a "Speed" thing and shoot the hostage?:eek: ;)

[Blackhawk]

10-15 yards? Wouldn't take the shot even if I was good enough.

7 yards or less. Yes, provided the hostage was one of "mine".

[Gomez]

And realize that making that shot on a nice flat range, on a nice flat piece of nonmoving paper, at your own pace is about a billion times removed from anything approaching reality.
:(

[LASur5r]

I practice that drill everytime I go to the range, except I shoot the first mag empty (10 shots), change mags and fire another 10, I only graze the GG once or twice at 21 ft..
I shoot the ten because I want to make sure that I am a consistent shot throughout. Same reason that I change mags, then shoot another 10.

LOL..the first time I tried it, I drilled the victim right between the eyes. Whole range went quiet., until I said loudly, "That'll teach you to grab my mother-in-law."

[gryphon]

No, and I doubt that I would try unless I knew for a fact that the hostage might die anyway. Then, what have I got to loose!

[Cowdogpete]

Yes with a qualifier. I wouldn't try to do it in less than 2 seconds.
Thats a concentration thing and last resort. 10-15 yards is negotiating distance.

Seek cover and take your time before attempting the shot.

[ronin308]

Gomez said it. Its a cute trick when you're at the range. Imagine that your blood is boiling, its a pretty girl that's hostage, the BG has a black mask on, and its nighttime...think about it.

[Gomez]

Given your 2 second timeframe, try this:

(Of course, you won't be able to do this on most ranges, but you'll get the idea)

On the start signal (whatever that is), begin running full speed at the threat, accessing your pistol as you go. Screw the muzzle into the side of the head of the badguy and pull trigger.

You should be able to accomplish this in 2 seconds or so and it'll be much easier to pull off than any sort of precise "hostage rescue" shot, particularly under the emotional stress/adrenalin dump of a real world OSM.

[Ewok_Guy]

On paper I can pull it off it at 7-10 yrds. In real life? I have no clue as I've never had to.

[GunFool]

If the terrorist has taken a hostage, then he truly isnt ready to die in the first place. He is afraid. You have to have some reason for taking that hostage. If he was just going to kill the person he probably would've done it already. That means chances are good that I'll have enough time to use my sights and get a good 'bead' on him. If this is the case, then yes, I would take the shot. I'm reasonably certain that I could hit my target under these circumstances.

[clem]

Yes, I am.

[Spectre]

Well, I'm more of a Hey, can we just talk? kind of guy.

Gun would be levelled at BG before dialog, as though I thought better of action.

Can we just talk about this? (Assessing perp.)

Bang.

I'd much prefer for just my own life to be in jeopardy, though.

[kantuc2]

Your problem is bigger than you think. You must kill the bad guy without his muscles convulsing, in other words he must go limp. The only place you can shoot him that will result in this is an area about the size of a quarter centered on the tip of the nose. Not me not at any range not when my first shot out of a cold gun cannot be guranteed to be on the x every time. :p

[tag]

Takin a shot like this, with your heart beating hard in you chest and your vision narrowing is the stuff of tv and movies. Almost none of us are skilled to take a shot like this. You are fooling yourself if you think that shooting at hostage targets at the range prepares you for this in any way.

Try this: set up your target at 15 yards. Then go out into the range parking lot and run around at top speed for 2-3 minutes. Then run up to your shooting station and try your shot. This should help you simulate the adrenilin rush you will feel if you are ever actually in this situation.

[Stogie45]

I have run this scene over and over in my mind! The pros and cons of taking the shot.

I have seen a few people at the range over and over make these sort of shots. One guy that I have shot with several times will transition from making COM shots to "dotting the eyes" of the target.

It is pretty scary when you realize there are people out there that could make the shot, on any given Sunday.

Talking to the guy while lining him up for the shot would probably be my only option.

Hope i never happens for real.:)

Stogie

[pbarrick]

I wouldn't take the shot. If closing distance and screwing the pistol into the BG's eye socket before pulling the trigger was necessary, that's a much more doable course of action for me (and, I think, for most people).

If distance favors the skilled opponent, then close proximity negates the effects of poor marksmanship under extreme stress.

[Jeff K]

If it only takes a thousandth of a second for the brain to decide to pull the trigger, I don't even think a contact shot will work. I seem to recall reading somewhere -- and there's probably neurological research to back this up -- that even some CNS shots offer just enough time to squeeze off a shot, even as brain death is occuring.

[Double Naught Spy]

Good enough? Hopefully. I think I'll keep working on it. Maybe the target won't be as easy as described.

[Ayteeone]

Jeff K - therein lies the problem... so until phasers are perfected, the decisions will require an annoyingly large amount of compromise.

I agree with Gomez. Rushing the guy and shooting him point blank does raise the odds of a lethal hit. It may also cause him to take his weapon and try to stop you, which raises the odds of you being shot.

Best to not start shooting unless there is no better choice. Can you make THAT decision in a fraction of a second?

[buzz_knox]

This isn't too dissimilar to what air marshalls were required to be able to do (don't know about the current crop). CNS shot in less than 2 seconds drawing from concealment. I don't think they took it out to 15 yards, though.

[NMGlocker]

I agree with Gomez. Rushing the guy and shooting him point blank does raise the odds of a lethal hit. It may also cause him to take his weapon and try to stop you, which raises the odds of you being shot.
This is exactly what the "rush" technique is designed to accomplish. When you yell and rush someone from a close distance, the "reptile" portion of their brain, that controls the fight or flight response, immediately gears up for the oncoming threat.
This does several very good things in a hostage situation.
1) It resets their OODA loop.
2) It pull their focus away from the hostage and towards the threat, they get a sympathy muscle response as well, their appendages, including their weapon will tend to prepare for the oncoming attacker, hence their weapon will no longer be on the hostage.
3) Action beats reaction, you can cover 3-5 yards faster than they can comprehend what you are doing, and react to your actions.
4) The contact distance head shot is as close to a sure thing as you can get in a dynamic situation.
I like the rush technique in a hostage situation.
Mr. Gomez, do you remember my contact distance head shot at the Dallas DT class? This here's a 9mm boy, powerfull enough to blow a mans head clean off!
:D

[Double Naught Spy]

THERE IS NO OODA LOOP in the reptilian brain. OODA loop processing happens in the frontal. Everybody knows that it is the color code system that is in the reptilian brain, really! Okay, some reptiles are color blind. My bad.

If action always beat reaction, then how is it one fighter can block the throw of the other? Obviously, if action beats reaction, the the fighter blockng the blow must be moving to block before the throw is made. Sorry, but the theory is hugely flawed. Action ONLY beats reaction when the time of processing and time of counter movements are slower than that of the total time needed to make the action perform the desired tasks. This is very individual dependent. Better trained people tend to 'react' much quicker than poorly trained people. You have to keep in mind that the task required to effect the reaction desired may be much smaller than the incoming action activity.

Jeff K, you are right that it just takes thousandths of a second to pull the trigger - a lot of them. Reacting to stimulus, a noise, and pulling the trigger on a single action 1911 where the slack was already taken up and the gun on target, most people will take a full quarter of a second. Some people will take about 0.20 and slower folks around 0.35. This involves the times for the incoming signal to be transmitted from the ears to the brain and the brain to react with a signal to the finger to pull the trigger. The time is similar with visual and tactile reactions as well.

[rage]

7 yds. yes...15 yds, no. ;)

[weerwolf]

It depends on what gun I have. If i have a pistol I wouldn't do it , an SMG , I would try it.

If I had a Throwing knife , I'dd go for it too. But the range would have to be less then 10meters

[Don Gwinn]

Aw, hell, Sonny Crockett did it. How hard can it be?

*Theoretically, rushing in order to draw attention and close distance might make sense. It's probably not a bad idea to draw fire. Normally that would be a bad idea, but since the BG has to transition from the hostage to you, there may be an opening before he actually fires on you.

However, it seems this would mean you'd have to fire while running toward him--better be practicing that one! I suppose you could stop and get set, but that would probably mean he'll shoot first.

Weerwulf, I hope you're deadly with that throwing knife. :eek:



*I say theoretically because I don't practice this stuff.

[HankL]

Two entire seconds? That would be a lifetime in a situation like this. Unless the BG really screws up that is.

This situation needs you to keep the bad guy running his mouth and the sharpshooter behind you improving his sight picture.

[wiggnut]

10 to 15 yards, no problem as long as his upper lip is showing.

But this stems from two philosvies [sic]

I have no problem shooting the hostage to make the hostage go down.

I believe in no negotiations [sic] with terrorists.

[Mannlicher]

an Old guy like me is more likely to bushwack the bad guy, rather than go toe to toe with 'em. For that, yes, I am a good enough shot.

[Don Gwinn]

Uhhh . . . . . no.

[Erick Gelhaus]

What's the worst that could happen? You blow the shot & kill the hostage. That's pretty much in the Worst category. Especially if it's a family member of loved one.

A square range is quite different from the real world.

In regards to the bushwacking thought ... It's going to come down - after the fact - to whether you can articulate & justify your actions. If you can, great; if not, stand by for some lengthy unpleasantness.

Even with appropriate, correct articulation you may not be done with the problem. Almost two years, I finished up (finally) a civil case that had drug on for six years. Why? Two gangsters assaulted two of my partners and I responded to the call for assistance. When I got there my co-workers were seperated from each other & each in a one-on-one struggle. I struck one of the gangsters once with a flashlight on an extremity. That strike ended the resistance from that individual. For that, it drug on for six years and ended after a five week trial.

[seeker_two]

http://www.msu.edu/user/constanz/fifthelement.jpg

Who ELSE wants to negotiate?... :D

[El Lurch]

... but no one seemed to give the BG credit for being able to simply redeploy his weapon from the Hostage's head 90° to shoot the hero while the hero is doing his lightning 2 second drill. Since firing is a fraction of a second and redeploying the weapon is as well, we seem to have a serious timeline gap here.

Action beats reaction, you can cover 3-5 yards faster than they can comprehend what you are doing, and react to your actions.

Maybe someone younger and faster than I can do that. As a lineman in that classic American youth ritual of high school football, I was very fast off of the line. Trouble was, a lot of people I rushed did comprehend what I did. Take the example further to pro or high level college football. Check the time it takes a rushing DT / DE to go 7 and 15 yards. They do that for a living and I don'T think any of us, even you young and well conditioned atheletes out there, can take out a BG in a 2 second drill from just standing there. Even at 7 yards would, it would be a good feat - remembering that you are trying to run, draw and whack this guy upside of the noggin.

If we were talking about charging a person without a hostage and using a knife, then you would be more realistic. I have drilled to defend against that and the only way I can save myself is by retreating and drawing.

I think that the risk of getting shot yourself is too great. You have such a low probability of success, really, so why not get some distance, maybe partial cover. Move to the opposite side of BG's gun to gain an advantage and try and get a deception game going (like, maybe tossing him your dummy wallet w/ ballistic shield :) ). Seriously, you are armed and BG doesn't know that until then. Unless the hostage is someone you have worked out a plan with and practiced in advance (e.g., husband/wife training), your best bet may be to ensure that you survive in order to help the hostage. When you have ensured a better chance of survival, like getting at least 15 yards away and maybe some cover - anything, a street sign post or telephone pole helps - then you can make your draw and hinder BG's plan to kill and escape or take the hostage and get away. I would let BG get away without the hostage rather than risk any life.

[LiveWire]

Imagine GG is your wife/daughter/mom.

My answer: Never good enough. Which is why I never stop practicing.

[Squid.HM2]

ok maybe out side the box a bit but with a laser max, may not have to shot and if you do... plan A) place dot squeez trigger plan B) 700 PSS 75 yrds away that shots 1/4 MOA

[Jeff Gonzales]

There are some good responses here that get the juices flowing and the only thing I will comment on is what are you thinking? We need to put things into what we call RELATIVE CONTEXT. Who are you facing off with; a true terrorist hell bent on succeeding or a crack head invading your home to get valuables for his Oil for Food program. Each is very different and will require different strategies. You walk into these training scenarios and you know what is going to happen, there is a lot of presumptuous training going on there and not as much realism.

There is no way in hell you are going to get away with shooting the hostage to get the shot on the threat. That is just plain not thinking. I cannot beleive someone would even suggest it. You have no idea what type of reprecussion will surface from accidentally hitting the hostage much less purposely. While removing the hostage from the situation is the goal, shooting them doesn't fit into that equation.

Rushing the threat presumes he will let you. Again, you got a lot of variables present like space to do so, no obstructions to your path and the hope he will just stare at you as you do your best Braveheart redention. Not to mention the actions of the hostage as you close the distance.

If there is an opportunity to disengage then keep it as a viable option. Removing yourself from the problem will buy you time and keep your options open. As mentioned earlier the bad guy will be calling the shots for the most part, but can still be manipulated towards a tactical disadvantage. It is not entirely safe to say the BG took a hostage because he was afraid, it could very well be the plan to take a hostage, so relying on their poor disposition can be a fatal mistake.

Closing the distance so you are inside of your training threshold for this difficult shot is the next option, but in a way that doesn't compromise the situation. Perhaps moving to a chair, table or even a counter in a non-violent manner will provide you with the decption you need to get "closer". Next, would be the distraction, but bear in mind anything you attempt from in front will more than likely have less an effect as something that happens from behind the threat. These precurses make up the elements of surprise you need to truly be provided with the opportunity to execute your plan.

These situations don't always end up with the good guy winning, there are lots of things that can go wrong. So, let us focus on what can go right. You are at the outer extremes of your skill level for a dedicated head shot on an obscured target, the head is open and you are at a guard position with your pistol carrying the guaranteed one shot stop round everyone has been waiting to get. In that instance, hell why wouldn't you take the shot.

Ultimately it will boil down to this, you are going to be gambling with another persons life. What are you willing to loose?

Later,

[Denny Hansen]

I've been on static ranges with shooters who are very, very good in that environment. I've seen those same shooters fall apart in force-on-force exercises, even though the worst that could happen is a good welt from a Sims gun.Good shooting does not necessarily equate to fighting.

Could I make the shot? I went four for five (five with a peripheral hit) headshots from twenty-five yards today. NO WAY would I try it in a for-real scenario even from fifteen unless the situation was very extreme.

Just my .02
Denny

[michael t]

I ve already told my wife and kids if that ever happened I would shot them first. :eek: I figure they have a better chance if I shoot them and should confuse the BG and then I hopefully can get a clear shot. :D My family knows what a terrible shot I am shooting at them will probally hit him.

[mk86fcc]

7 yards - ma-a-ybe. 15 yards - nope - gonna need a Plan B. Here's another interesting "stress builder" for the square range - saw it of all places on an episode of NCIS. Next time you're feeling pretty good about your paper hostage taker groups, put something near and dear to you (PDA, cell phone, favorite ball cap, what-have-you) over the hostage's head and run your target back out - and nope, I haven't done it, nor do I intend to.

[Jeff Gonzales]

Yeah...that is a good one. We have tapped "effects" type objects to make it a bit more realistic and have always gotten great feedback on it. I doubt, I will be able to get people to pony up their cell phones, but you never know.

Later,