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NotQuiteSane
November 9, 2002, 10:08 PM
Hey, people.

I've been thinking of getting in some competitions, but I'm wondering if I can do it? I have a bad leg, the end result of which is it is very difficult to kneel or run (not impossible, but the pain is incapicating)

Since I see a lot of both in articles i've read about competitions, I'm wondering if there is a way to work around these problems?

NQS

Old Fuff
November 9, 2002, 10:45 PM
I’m going to jump to the conclusion that you mean handgun competition. In that case consider conventional bullseye tournaments, metallic silhouette, and cowboy action matches. You might be able to handle any of these without having to be a track star.

Steve Smith
November 9, 2002, 11:00 PM
Are you only interested in handgun competition?

WESHOOT2
November 9, 2002, 11:05 PM
No problem; go slow.

They are, after all, just games.

(Some days I run okay, some days I limp. Shoot IPSC with one-armed friend, friend with leg in cast, gimpy old types, etc. We have fun, but we go slow LOL. We old.)

NotQuiteSane
November 9, 2002, 11:11 PM
I was thinking IDPA and similar. I may try some rifle competitions, shotguns aren't my thing.

Mostly I'm looking into this as a training aid.

NQS

Steve Smith
November 9, 2002, 11:15 PM
For rifle, there are many types that you could get into. Smallbore, Shutzen, Smallbore and Highpower Silhouette, Palma, F-Class, and of course, my favorite, Across the Course Highpower.

NotQuiteSane
November 9, 2002, 11:22 PM
Do the rifle competitions require "modern" weapons? Most of my rifles are about twice as old as I am.

I don't want to have to spend a lot, I am a poor college student.

NQS

Steve Smith
November 10, 2002, 12:58 AM
Not at all! There are more that I neglected to mention as well, such as Blackpowder Silhouette.

Kinda hard to tell you what to look into without knowing what you have...but if you don't want to spill those beans I understand.



Do you have a Garand or an M1A/M14?

How about a hunting rifle or a .22 Rimfire rifle?

NotQuiteSane
November 10, 2002, 01:20 AM
Not at all! There are more that I neglected to mention as well, such as Blackpowder Silhouette.

Kinda hard to tell you what to look into without knowing what you have...but if you don't want to spill those beans I understand.

I've been going through some tough (financial) times, the end result of which is I have a naa pistol, which i carry (better than nothing), and a 1917 enfield



Do you have a Garand or an M1A/M14?

No. been thinking about a FAL

How about a hunting rifle or a .22 Rimfire rifle?

well, I have used the enfield for elk hunting....

I'll probably be buying a .22 before the end of the minth, and a pistol (most likely witness) around the end of the year.

NQs

NotQuiteSane
November 10, 2002, 01:25 AM
Steve,

Forgot to mention, as a general rule for anything I would be likely to buy, I perfer bolt action WWI & II rifles.

Mausers, lee enfields, 1914/17 enfields, etc.

IMO the 03 is inferior to the 17, it's only advantage being a windage adjustable sight

NQS

Steve Smith
November 10, 2002, 07:02 PM
mmm.


Honestly, most centerfire competitions would be a real challenge for those low on funds. Highpower is probably a bit ambitious for an extremely tight budget, at least in the beginning. Silhouette woule be easier of the wallet, and some type of rimfire or air competition would be cheapest of all. You have to remember that there is a lot of money invested in equipment, well beyond the cost of the rifle. My Highpower costs, so far, have me with two match guns, at a total of roughly $2400, an RF upper for practice at $800, sling $50, a spotting scope and stand $1000, coat $225, glove $40, mat $75, cart to carry it all, $325, reloading press (used for many guns, hard to say how much), dies for HP $125, power case trimmer $250, enough bullets to keep me shooting about 3K rounds per year, barrels every two years, gunsmithing costs, match fees, travel expenses, the list goes on and on. Who knows what I've overlooked. See how this goes? SO. You need to look at somethign with not only a small initial investment, but also a low long term investment. Look in your area and see if there are some Smallbore or Rimfire Silhouette matches. Anything that shoots a .22 RF or pellets WILL be cheaper than shooting centerfire. You can often find excellent used guns to keep the price down. Action handgunning would be considerably cheaper, as accuracy and long distance both add to the price of whatever you're doing. The two together add up to what you see above.

NotQuiteSane
November 11, 2002, 08:26 PM
Here's my mail to IDPA and the response.

Joe,

As harsh as it may sound, IDPA offers no special rules for disabled people.
IDPA is an attempt to closely resemble a real life situation and in real
life, disabled people are going to be targeted before anyone else. You
would be able to compete, but you would have to take a procedural penalty
when you don't kneel.

Thanks,

Dru Robbins
IDPA Coordinator

-----Original Message-----
From: Staff [mailto:staff@idpa.com]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:14 AM
To: 'dru@idpa.com'
Subject: FW: Question on procedures


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe [SMTP:nqs@]
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 11:19 PM
To: info@idpa.com
Subject: Question on procedures

Hi,

Just looked at your web pag, and it looks interesting, but I have one
concern I did not find answered. I am a disabled person, who has
extreme difficulty (not impossible, but the resulting pain levels would
not let me complete a metch) running and kneeling.

How would that affect my abilty to compete?

Joe

Steve Smith
November 11, 2002, 08:53 PM
FYI, with a doctor's note a Match Director may make provisions for you at a Highpower match...of course, we don't run anyway.

Peetmoss
November 18, 2002, 09:01 PM
I have a suggestion. If you deciede that non of the present orginized shooting matches meet your needs, why not get to get together with some freinds and do something on your own. You could start out small and maybe just maybe do something big. It might be alot of work and require alot of time and research but it could also be alot of fun and maybe get some more people into the sport. Just my two cents.

Whatever you choose to do I wish you sucess .

Jim Watson
November 18, 2002, 11:19 PM
Pistol:
Bullseye for accuracy and competition fun and stress management.
IDPA and take your procedurals if you can't handle the positions and movement.
IPSC lets you negotiate a "penalty in lieu of course requirements" in advance.
GSSF has some elements of both, but is shot all standing in one spot; check it out.

Rifle:
Can you take prone and sitting positions?
If so, the CMP Rimfire Sporter match will let you shoot serious rifle match competition with a garden variety .22 sporter, weight not over 7.5 pounds, open, peep, or scope sight (maximum 6X.)

kilroy2721
November 19, 2002, 11:22 AM
There are several people that are handicapped of some type at my local IDPA range. They just do the best that they can. Some of them are not able to kneel down as easy or as fast as some others but most people just think of it as a game and rush through it. Some of us don't care about the time and try for accuracy while maintaining as much cover as possible. Most clubs that I have been with are friendly and will do anything to help a fellow shooter. Give your local club a call or better yet go out and see them watch them shoot once and talk to them I am sure they will help you out.

NotQuiteSane
November 19, 2002, 11:26 AM
Doesn't GSSF require you to use a glunk?

As for prone, not easily. if I can keep weight off my lower leg, maybe

NQS

Big Hext
November 20, 2002, 12:10 PM
Howdy,

Not trying to muddle the picture for you.

Cowboy Action Shooting is a low stress and fun shooting discipline. It is more expensive to get fully outfitted, but the culture is very oriented to sharing guns to new folks.

While there is some movement, many older folks do the best they can and fully participate.

Ultimately, you will require two single action revolvers, a lever action rifle in a pistol cartridge and a double barrel shotgun without ejectors (or a pump with an exposed hammer).

CAS is not as defense oriented as IDPA. It will make you a better shot, because you are shooting a lot.

Just a thought. Feel free to contact me for more information.

Tony S45
November 21, 2002, 05:26 PM
NotQuiteSane--

I just started shooting IDPA two years ago and have arthritis, failing eyesight, too much weight, etc. etc. The stuff upper middle age folks normally have. Haven't had to ask for a "procedural" yet but it's coming as my knees weaken.

I found that the $ costs were minimal and the fun was maximum plus with some practice and study/observation on my part I have been able to improve my gun handling abilities and overall times significantly.

Our local shooting clubs do everything possible to accomodate a shooter with a special need and I'm sure you will find that to be the same in your area. We shooters must stick together!

Go to some matches and talk to the match directors. Get their input as to your involvement. Don't EVER stop shooting!

NotQuiteSane
November 22, 2002, 11:59 PM
Big Hext,

I considered CAS years ago (before my accident) The big thing for me is the cost of the equipment. the list you gave looks to me like easily $1000, if not more, and for stuff I can't carry concealed, nor hunt with, being a poor college student, it seems like a waste to me.

And I won't get into the fact SASS contrdicts itself when it says "guns from 1860 till just after the turn of the century", then only allows SA revolvers (colt manufactured a DA revolver in 1877, not sure if earlier, plus several semi-autos were made between 1895-1905), lever acton rifles (what about bolt action and various types of cingle shot?)

NQS

WESHOOT2
November 23, 2002, 05:41 AM
Have fun, get trigger time, meet nice people, maybe (not) win.

snokid
November 29, 2002, 01:17 AM
I agree with weshoot...

just go to a local match....

one of your first post's said that you were looking for a little training....

idpa and any other competition is a game and only a game.

with that said, any time you send lead down range your one step ahead of the bad guy you might run into on the street.

as far as running and what not...if you come in dead last, does it matter? as long as you are improving from match to match who cares where you place?

Most idpa matches don't really require much movement anyways.

if you get a procedural that's 3 sec. added to your time.
just shoot 6 points less down than the others and you will be even with them...

sno

RdB
December 5, 2002, 04:09 PM
NQS,

I think your biggest handicap right now is not having a gun (what's an NAA?) and the money required for enough ammo to be "good" with it (poor student). First and foremost, you'll need a handgun!

That being said, around here (Southern New England) there are a lot of local bowling pin shoots (man v. man) that require no running or kneeling, and are a heck of a lota fun. There are the occasional steel plate shoots as well, some for rifle/shotgun/pistol. Usually costs around $5 to enter.

Somewhere along the line, your going to have to get in contact with clubs in your area, and find out who's shooting what, and just take that leap of faith, and participate! All the people I've met over the years have been more than helpful, and will nake a Newbie feel comfortable and welcomed.

good luck to ya'
Russ

NotQuiteSane
December 8, 2002, 12:58 AM
NQS,

I think your biggest handicap right now is not having a gun (what's an NAA?) and the money required for enough ammo to be "good" with it (poor student). First and foremost, you'll need a handgun!

this is the NAA model I have:

http://naaminis.com/pix/mmt.jpg

The ammo is teh easy part. with reloading I can strech that part of the budget (no, don't save, but do spend less per round)

NQS

pax
December 9, 2002, 07:38 PM
NQS,

Folks near here have a non-IPSC, non-IDPA tactical handgun match going. It isn't a very competitive game (first prize is bragging rights only), but is mostly just real-life prep in a fun environment.

There is usually some running and some kneeling, but speed is usually the least important part of a stage. Plus, they don't tell you, 'kneel here, and shoot that.' They tell you, 'solve the problem.' If the problem for you would normally include not being able to kneel behind cover, and you'll just have to take that into account as you solve the stage. Stages aren't usually timed, but you can't be exposed to the BG (target) more than 2 seconds or you flunk the stage.

All stages are pass/fail, except that there is usually one tiebreaker stage which may include a par time. If you didn't solve it the way he was expecting, but can convince the match director that you solved the stage 'better' than the solution he had in mind when he set it up, you'll get a pass. If not, you won't. (Hey, real life isn't fair, either. Shrug.)

The gamesters usually go elsewhere, finding our non-competitive competition just too doggone stressful.

Cost is around $15/match, plus ammo (less than 100 rounds). Equipment is whatever you ordinarily carry. No special 'race guns' and no gazillion-round mags. No major/minor categories, but some allowances generally made for 5 shots. Last time we had one guy show up sporting homemade cardboard-and-duct-tape mag pouches. (They worked just fine.)

You may or may not be able to find a similarly low-key 'competition' in your area, but it sounds to me as if something like it would fit the bill.

If not, you could get together with some buddies and start one. :)

pax

I think there should be a rule in Scrabble that if you can seduce or kill your opponent with all seven of your letters, then you win the game. -- Rob Fairchild

WESHOOT2
December 10, 2002, 05:47 AM
Let us know
when you go.
Some who shoot
give a hoot
how you do.
Now go go go go go

NotQuiteSane
December 10, 2002, 09:26 PM
Yep. Still job hunting, as soon as I can, i'll be at the range. I'm hoping febuary.

Here's why I can't knee/run:

(links only, because they're a bit graphic)

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~josad/images/leg1.jpg

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~josad/images/leg2.jpg

about 6 months old

NQS

braindead0
December 11, 2002, 10:41 AM
I'd suggest finding a local range (preferably outdoor where you have full flexibility in target setup and stuff)...go and shoot..meet other folks... try out various competitions..

My wife and I routinely practive drills that don't require much in the way of moving around (bill drill, fig 8 and the like). Good practice.

WESHOOT2
December 12, 2002, 05:19 AM
Bad, but you ain't dead.

See you there.....................DVC.