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Ladybug
November 6, 2002, 08:49 PM
I was looking at my Cabela's catalog (this is the GENERAL catalog, not even the specific hunting one) tonight, and I have a question for any of you hunters out there... it may sound like I'm being a smart aleck here, but I really am curious.

What I found in Cabela's was:

Full camo clothing that would fool any human, much less a deer

Special lined under garmets that mask your scent (some are even heated for your comfort)

Seats, towers, stands, whatever that are also very well camouflaged (and comfortable) so you don't have to move

Very realistic decoys

Scent marking chemicals to attract deer

Deer feeders

Special fertilizers for the land to ensure big, well-antlered deer

Deer calls that replicate lost cow calls, the sound of herds, etc. (not just some whistle or something -- a huge audio system with a pre-recorded CD)

A game-finder and ear pieces so that you don't even have to notice the deer yourself

"Steady Sticks" -- basically tripods so that you don't have to hold your weapon steady

Scopes so you don't really have to know how to aim well

And of course this doesn't include the technology of the weapons themselves.

Now my question is... where exactely is the "sport" in all of this? Why not just domesticate deer and keep a herd, like you would a bunch of cows? You could just raise them to come to you by name, and then one day you could just go into your pasture, call one, and shoot it point-blank... I mean, when you're sitting in the woods, in your heated clothing, on a padded seat, are you really get that much of an "outdoors" experience? If you've got an arsenal of tools to attract the deer, as well as tools to help you locate the game, and more tools to guarantee an accurate shot, are you really "hunting"?

priv8ter
November 6, 2002, 09:10 PM
Okay, as I was reading your initial question, Ladybug, I told myself I wasn't going to post, because I have a feeling you are going to get flamed for asking an honest question, and I didn't want to be associated with it. But, your honest question deserves an honest attempt at an answer.

Some of those toys sound pretty neat, don't they? :D I know very few people that buy all of those things and use them on their hunt. But, a company wouldn't make them if people weren't buying them. I'll try to address the ones I have used, the ones I wish I used, the ones I will never use, and my reasons behind each.

Camo(clothes, sent covers, etc.: Never used it. I hunt in Jeans, and bright orange vest. Even during Muzzleloader Season. I have more fear of some of my fellow 'Hunters' than I do desire to sneak up on a dear/elk. But, all these concealment devices ARE a neccessity for Bow Hunters...I would never question one of them being in full get up.

Seats, stands, towers: Never used one of these either. Just not the way it is done around here. A tree stand is tough to use in Sage Brush country. But, I have friends in the Northeast and Upper Midwest that do. It gets you up out of the deers line of sight.
I have to add that Stand Hunting always has seemed a bit boring to me. I know in the thick Northern Woods that the look, listen stalk thin wouldn't work. Just not my style.

All the lures/ scents/ decoys/ calls: Never used them either. Once again, I think of them as primarily a Bow Hunters tools(Blame it all on the Bow Hunters, that's the ticket ;) ) Really, I have a lot of respect for bow hunters...tough job)

Steady Sticks? Never used them, but I do use what ever nature provides me to steady my rifle, whether black powder, or 7mm Rem Mag. Why? With all kidding aside, it allows me to be more confident in my shot and makes it more likely that I will drop my target with as little suffering as possible.

Scope? I will grant you that the crosshairs of a scope are easier to master than iron sights, but please don't think that means we don't have to aim well. We do have to worry about breath control. At 300 yards, you would be amazed how far off target just a little trembling would put you. :D I'm guessing you have never had Buck Fever. We have to do range estimation, something I am Horrible at. Yes, you can buy laser rangefinders...I never have.

Now, as for if this is still a 'sport'. Ladybug, some folks aren't in it for the sport. Some people are more interested in filling their tags and their freezers than enjoying the outdoors. As I stated in another thread, with the rising cost of licences and tags, I really can't blame them for using every legal advantage open to them. Even then, hunter success rates are FAR from 100%, so I guess it is sport.

As for sport and competition, in Modern Firearms Season, the only sport and competition is with the other hunters. That's why I stopped doing modern. It has gotten pretty darn cut-throat out there.

ronin308
November 6, 2002, 09:41 PM
The inherent unfairness in hunting isn't in the equipment, it is that a human's gray matter is far more effective than a deer's. The equipment is merely an extension of that fact. Is it unfair to a mouse that an owl can see so well?

Concerning domestication: I believe that hunting doesn't necessarily have a survival based function in many people's lives. Neither does watching films, reading books, or eating tasty food. The point is one of pleasure and fulfillment. It is extremely enjoyable for many of us to be in the field. Also it is more satisfying to eat meat that was killed by your own hand. It can bring families closer. Yet another added benefit is the knowledge of your own autonomy. If you've never gone hunting its hard to describe the feeling. It would be like asking, "What does a piece of chocolate taste like?"

Kcustom45
November 6, 2002, 09:44 PM
The main reason that I think Cabela's sells a lot of that stuff is you have people who spend ~ $3000-$5000 on a hunt, and that doesn't include African safaris. If it were me I would want every possible advantage so that I could have something to show for all my money that I spent. Another thing is that having all that stuff really doesn't make you a great hunter. I will guarantee that if you give someone who has never hunted before all that stuff and put them in the woods they will come back empty handed. Its not about how much stuff you have, its whether or not you know how to use it properly. Someone on this forum said that an unusual or out of place sent/attractant is worse than nothing at all.
Anyway to get back to your question, I don't consider hunting a sport. I hunt for the meat and the relaxing times I have in the woods. Hunting isn't a sport it's a way of life.

Don Gwinn
November 6, 2002, 09:47 PM
I don't use all that junk, but I don't hunt for sport either. Hunting is not a sport to me any more than driving, though I often enjoy both while I'm doing them and though I know many people out there DO think of them as sports.

I hunt deer because they taste good. :)

Glockenstien
November 6, 2002, 09:55 PM
...maybe you'll start to understand.

glockgirl
November 6, 2002, 10:04 PM
The guys who wear camo while hunting illegally on my family's land do so to avoid being spotted by us, not to avoid being spotted by the deer (or coyote, or bear, or pheasant, or cougar). Heck, after carefully concealing the truck or the boat (the property is on Lake Roosevelt) in the bushes, hiking or ATVing past multiple "No Hunting" and "No Trespassing" signs, and otherwise making a considerable effort at being a successful poacher, it really bites to be found out by the angry property owner (my father-in-law, armed with a shotgun, his dog, and a cellphone with the state game warden on speed-dial). Some of these guys DO build treestands...which always seems amazingly arrogant to me, and which we promptly tear down and destroy.

The deer who live on the property are so trusting they will walk within a few yards of us, or anyone else. No surprise that they're a target of poachers year after year.

Byron Quick
November 6, 2002, 10:18 PM
Hmmm. I've tried some of that stuff. Deer scent? I never have noticed much difference when I use it or not. Same with soaps and detergents that are scent-free. I've used them and killed deer. And I've also gotten skunked. On the other hand, I've hunted using scented soaps and detergents. And killed deer. And have gotten skunked. I don't bother today. Camouflage? Yeah, I use it. Full bow hunter gear-face mask and all. Where I hunt, the deer look up in stands...they've learned. If you're not camouflaged...they're gone. I also stalk in the southeastern woods. I kill about one deer a year stalking. I'd probably learn to do better if that was the only way I hunted. But my stand? I'm sitting on a five gallon bucket.

Last year, I killed ten deer. My friends and I ate them all. The year before, I was entirely unsuccessful. Same hunting grounds. Everyone that hunted with me that year, killed a deer.

About all the scope does is allow me to take a shot at longer ranges with confidence that I will make a humane kill instead of wounding a deer.

Sticks have been used for a few centuries now. I think they're grandfathered:D

Cowdogpete
November 6, 2002, 10:20 PM
...and some people are raising them like cattle. There are many high fenced ranches in this part of the country that breed and raise deer, solely to sell them to people with big wallets that want a trophy to hang on the wall. You can rattle a feed bucket and they almost run up to you.

No that is not sport. Its business. I wouldn't pay for it but I don't try to critisize those that do.

You must also realize that some hunters/people are gear junkies. I'm a gear junkie myself, I'm just not much of a hunter (except birds)
I have more stuff than is necessary to go along with my various shotguns, rifles and pistols. Its a evil addiction that sucks up all your money. I don't think there is a cure either.

TallPine
November 6, 2002, 10:26 PM
It's the economy, stupid :D

(not really infering you are stupid, Ladybug - it's just a quote)

How would we keep our economy rolling if hunters just wore any old clothes they happened to have around, and used the old 30-30 handed down from their dad? (not even any place to put batteries) :)

stickslinger
November 6, 2002, 10:30 PM
I had this beautiful post explaining all when my computer locked up while I was looking for the following quote. So you'll have to do without the other stuff. I choose to hunt with a longbow and wooden arrows because I often think like you that some hunters have turned it into a shooting gallery.

The Hunters horn sounds early for some, I thought, later for others. For some unfortunates, prisoned by city sidewalks and sentenced to a cement jungle more horrifying than anything to be found in Tanganyika, the horn of the hunter never winds at all. But deep in the guts of most men is buried the involuntary response to the hunter's horn, a prickle of the nape hairs, an acceleration of the pulse, an atavistic memory of his fathers, who killed first with stone, and then with club, and then with spear, and then with bow, and then with gun, and finally with formulae. How meek the man is of no importance; somewhere in the pigeon chest of the clerk is still the vestigial remnant of the hunter's heart; somewhere in his nostrils the half-forgotten smell of blood. There is no man with such impoverishment of imagination that at some time he has not wondered how he would handle himself if a lion broke loose from a zoo and he were forced to face him without the protection of bars or handy, climbable trees.

This is a simple manifestation of ancient ego, almost as simple as the breeding insinct, simpler than the urge for shelter, because man the hunter lives basically in his belly. It is only when progress puts him in the business of killing other men that the bloodlust surges upward to his brain. And even war is still regarded by the individual as sport - the man himself against a larger and more dangerous lion.

Robert Ruark. "The Horn of the Hunter"

that pretty much sums it up for me.

dZ
November 6, 2002, 11:09 PM
i have had deer walk right up to me while dressed head to toe in Floresent orange sitting on a 4 foot log in the middle of a clearing. Most of the time the dang things wake me up from a sound nap and i have to wave my arms to get them to notice me.

alot of the gee gaws are junk that people buy because when yer bored waiting at walmart for someone to get out of the yard goods department ya gotta buy something.

i fear loosing my camo binoculars, camo flashlight and camo thermos inside my camo backpack

:D

vulcan
November 6, 2002, 11:21 PM
Stickslinger, I'm with you. I hunt with a recurve, I tried compounds & found them too gadget intensive. I have to admit I was a "Tech weinie" once, Bought alot of toys & gadgets. I realized the toys didn't make the hunt anymore enjoyable. I started thinking about this when I saw a guy mounting a laser sight on his bow. Somebody once told me in a bar where hunters went , you can tell the Guides from the hunters easily. The guides have the duct tape repaired vests & the hunters have the matching gortex suits. But like in a earlier post, Its big business! I shoot guns for sport only, I stopped hunting with them.I been on Some hunts look like military operations, not my idea of hunting.

Mike Irwin
November 6, 2002, 11:30 PM
In the years that I hunted, guess how many of those gee-whiz devices I used?

That's right.

Absolutely ZERO.

kjm
November 6, 2002, 11:38 PM
The cammo isn't for hunting. We wear shorts jeans or regular clothes hunting. Once we kill them though, we go change into the cammo, get blood all over by gutting the animal and dressing it in the cammo. The added hair is a nice touch. The cammo is also useful to distinguish us hunters from the black helicopter crowd at gunshows. While I believe in the black helicopter crowd, I don't want the secret government agents to make me, so I dress up like a hunter and prowl the tables at gunshows. The vendors know I am a BHG (Black Helicopter Guy) because I know the secret handshake and proper phrasology.

We then load the animal in back of our $40,000.00 Ford F350's with all the gizmos and we even load our ATV's and take them into town to BS at the meat processor's place with other hunters who did likewise. The cammo is just to show that our wives were cool with it and let us go out and buy stuff. Or at least that we're alpha males and buy it anyway.

As for scents, they are used like cologne. Never use them prior to hunting though because other deer fear the dominant buck or doe you smell like. Better yet, after the kill put it on so other hunters will think you used it to kill yours and you will thwart their hunt next time and guarantee more animals for yourself next year!

Laser range finders are awesome, but I don't need it because my feeder and mineral block is only 30 feet away and I can throw a knife that far! Heck, most of my deer are taken with a pistol, but when I am bored, I might use a sling-shot, or even chase them down (the fence makes it hard to escape quickly) and club them with my .557 Weatherby Antiaircraft magnum rifle. I have to club them with it because each round has to be stolen from the secret UN Stockpiles, and thus are more expensive than the rifle themselves.

The cigar holders in real-tree hardwoods are cool too. Just in case you needed to smoke a stogie while hunting but didn't want the wiley whitetail to see your cigar case or lighter (which incidentally is also realtree hardwoods). I also have a nice 1/2 gallon flask in case I get thirsty for some single malt scotch, but I couldn't find it in realtree, so I am using the old woodlands camo pattern.

My deerstand just got hooked up to electricity though this year, so now I have A/C and Heat. Last year I had to use a propane heater and it got so hot I had to hunt in my undies! I also have an internet hookup and digital camera so I can film the kill and email it to my friends prior to getting down out of the deer blind to go get the animal. I also have a small 'fridge and microwave (in realtree of course!) inside my blind so that if I need to pop some popcorn or chill a bottle of champagne (Laurent is coming out with realtree labels next year!), I don't have to inconvienience myself. Speaking of inconvienience, my septic tank will be installed next thursday, and the plumbers are coming out to put in the john where my lazy-boy (also realtree) is. That way I can kill two birds with one stone so to speak! While they don't sell toilets in realtree, I purchased tape so I can still get it right.

The best part about hunting season is to go out and spend the money in anticipation. New trucks, trailers that match the color of the ATV's, and laser range finders and infared, heat-seeking bullets are just some of the things that keeps this country's economy the envy of those Nancy-boy French! And after I've killed my limit (which equates to about 75 lbs of meat off the bone) I go home to a grateful wife who is proud of her man for saving the family grocery budget by getting up early and putting food on the table!

ATTICUS
November 6, 2002, 11:40 PM
Only non hunters think it's easy. Kinda like a non-shooter thinking they can pick up any gun and become a Green Beret in a seconds notice.
I've cross bow/shotgun hunted for quite a few years, and I hunt with folks that have hunted their entire lives, and as was stated earlier, I don't know anyone who buys most of that stuff. A cottage industry was built around the sport, just like any other. I see docile deer standing around to (usually does) - when I'm not hunting. Funny how that works. It's kinda like the way fly's sense when you pick up a fly swatter. If you don't have some skill, and a lot of patience, you won't get a deer regardless of how many gadgets you've got. Even very experienced and capable hunters have lean years when pursuing a trophy buck.

Get out and try it. There's nothing so thrilling and easy as walking a mile through the thickets and gulleys, and crossing creeks, in the dark, in 30 degree weather. High tech only works to a point.

Glen R
November 6, 2002, 11:40 PM
Next Friday will be my first time deer hunting. I stayed with the basics to keep it simple.

Insulated coveralls
Nice rubber boots for out in the 5" of swamp water I'll be walking through.
Orange Vest, hat and gloves
Carbon activated scent reducing spray
Tree stand and harness
Trusty 686 S&W 6" revolver
Knife
Granola bars
Flashlight
Three Zip lock bags

It sounds like alot, but it's not much compared to what some other guys have. Most of that stuff is useless unless you have more money than you know what to do with.

Cheers,
Glen

Ladybug
November 7, 2002, 12:41 AM
KJM that is about the funniest durned thing I have EVER read!!

Thanks guys for answering my question, and not getting mad at me -- I appreciate it! You confirmed my suspicions that most hunters don't really use all of that stuff... still, I wouldn't want to be bambi in these times :cool:

TexasVet
November 7, 2002, 01:06 AM
Ladybug, if anyone actually USED all that stuff, they'd miss the season by the time they got dressed, scented, covered up and drug all that equipment into the woods far enough to really SEE a deer!
Everybody I know just sits out in the woods beside the house and waits. It's real pretty in the Texas woods this time of year, and many only kill a deer if it makes them mad for interrupting their appreciation of the Piney Woods!

Pendragon
November 7, 2002, 02:30 AM
Well, I have only been hunting once or twice as a kid - never got anything but a rabbit.

I plan to go hunting - dear or boar - and when I do, I am taking a lever action rifle with iron sights (well, I may succumb and get the glowy green or orange signts)

I get SO FREAKING ANNOYED at gunshop people - I look at the 45-70 lever action guns - they ask what I want it for and I say "boar and deer - maybe bear someday"

Then they try and show me the scopes and I just look at them like they are insane - I say "this is a lever action rifle - what kind of person would put a scope on such a gun?" and then I try and seem disgusted.

I like gadgets to some degree - I work in the IT field for sakes, but I keep my computer gadget and wiget free, I like low-tech sports cars and I would rather not take an animal than do it with a bunch of gadgety crap.


Oh - and glockgirl - people that poach, especially people who poach on private, marked land are the lowest form of scum in the world. You should - I dont know - burn, overturn or submerse their truck if you find it.

I would be pretty damn tempted to cross the line with people like that.

My buddy at work just got 20 acres in the foot hills - he has a neighbor that is bow hunting tons and tons of deer of his and other people land - they find the gutpiles. He is retired military too - anyway, I hate people like that. My buddy said the warden caught some people last year taking lits of dear without tags or permission, etc - they confiscated their freaking house, land, truck, guns - the works.

grr

glockgirl
November 7, 2002, 03:01 AM
It's always amazing to me that some of the treestands we take down are really quite well constructed...one last year had a nice little awning and the guy had left a cooler up there, complete with beer. It wasn't cold, obviously, but I suppose he would've hauled in ice.

In the past year, we've sighted at least one adult cougar on our property, and numerous cougar kills, so we're hoping that knowledge of the existence of cougars (it's been in the local papers) will discourage poachers this year.

notbubba
November 7, 2002, 04:53 AM
A lot of the stuff you asked about (camo clothing, under garmets that mask your scent ,tree stands) are used by bow hunters.
The deer needs to be fairly close to get a clean kill with a bow.

In Michigan you must wear blaze orange during gun season.

seeker_two
November 7, 2002, 06:34 AM
Why does Cabella's sell all that stuff to hunters?

Because hunters buy it.

If you ever watch any of the hunting TV shows, you'll see the host in the latest Realtree/Mossy Oak/SuperCamo gear w/ the latest RemChester UltraSuperMegaShortMagnum rifles. This is because the shows are SPONSORED by these companies.

Now, look at the professional guides on these hunts. What are they wearing? Most of the time: jeans, a t-shirt, & a gimmie cap & carry a .30-06 or .270. Even saw one in bib overalls & a pistol belt last week. Why? These guys (and ladies) know that SKILL beats GADGETS anyday. They KNOW how to hunt. And (in private) they chuckle at all the high-tech gear these TV hosts bring.

Another case of using hardware solutions (gadgets) to solve software (skill) problems...:rolleyes:

ATTICUS
November 7, 2002, 08:17 AM
"still, I wouldn't want to be bambi in these times"

Me either...too many highways full of speeding eeeejits in minivans doing everything but paying attention to the road. Actually, I don't like being on the highway with them either. The woods are much safer for the both of us. :)

Bogie
November 7, 2002, 09:26 AM
It's a sport.

It's called "Powerlifting."

Art Eatman
November 7, 2002, 09:42 AM
Wild turkey have the best "pattern recognition" of any animal, according to wildlife biologists. If that stump wasn't there, yesterday, it's a Bad Thing, and it's time to leave, Right Now! So, camo is a necessity, and a type that breaks up an outline so you don't look like a new stump is best.

Deer don't see colors; only shades of gray. I dunno why any deer hunter thinks camo is a necessity. Any dull-colored earth-toned material will do.

I got into serious deer-hunting in 1963 when I moved back to Texas. I've never used anything but a scoped rifle. Much better chance for a clean kill, with a scope. Nowadays, with tri-focals, it's pretty much a necessity.

In the south Texas brush country, you'll use a stand or forget it. The prickly pear and mesquite are often thick enough that you can't walk through it; you must be able to see over that 8-foot stuff and watch trails and the little clear areas.

In my area, you'll walk or do without Bambi. Go to where he might be hiding, kick him out of bed, look him over to see if he's worth shooting, and test your skill. Heck, just finding him is a test of endurance and skill. A running shot at 150 to 300 yards has been known to be an exercise in futility. :D If you're good, you eat.

I usually wear some old khakis, my ancient Russell Birdhunters and carry a few extra cartridges, a piece of rope and my knife. And some toilet paper, to mark the spot so I can come back and collect the carcass. It's embarrassing to have a deer down, in the back end of nowhere, and not be able to return and find him. :(

Art

kjm
November 7, 2002, 11:07 AM
That reminds me of when I was at Ft. Bragg and (when not busy killing people or breaking things) would spend Sunday mornings watching Bill Dance catch fish after fish. Then we'd go to Walmart and buy everything he used, and try our luck at the local lakes. After spending a huge amount of money fishing with all that crap, I decided to go back to fishing with live bait and a bait caster, and now I am catching fish again.

Gadgetry doesn't work. Skill works. I don't hunt for sport anyway, so most of my deer are killed because I'll be doing tractor work or cutting up a tree and will have a rifle handy when the opportunity comes. We just learn to carry a rifle with us when out in the pastures during deer season.

dongun
November 7, 2002, 02:05 PM
Most of that stuff is junk, but those heated underpants - now that is essential equipment...

Keith Rogan
November 7, 2002, 02:16 PM
Ladybug,

90% of those products are directed at people who don't know how to hunt, or are just beginning. Almost none of them will help, and most of them will actually hurt your odds of bagging a deer.
Think of the lousy basketball player who buys the $200 sneakers or the bad golfer who buys the premium clubs. This is about retailers trying to convince people that money or technology can overcome lack of skill. It can't.

A few weekends stalking deer with a camera in the off-season is worth all of these products put together and more.

eroyd
November 7, 2002, 02:44 PM
During the off season while sitting around flipping through glossy catalogs and watching hunting videos its easy to get caught up in the gadget thing. We boys love our toys. The marketers are well aware of that.
It doesn't take long on the first hunt of the season to realize that we've been rooked. I wish I had the money back I've wasted on such gadgets . . . it would probably pay for a 6 month African Safari.

Art Eatman
November 7, 2002, 03:35 PM
One of the advantages of being an Old Fart is that all those toys weren't in existence when I was learning about hunting. If I didn't need them, then, why would I need them, now?

:D, Art

12GA
November 7, 2002, 03:47 PM
One of the advantages of being an Old Fart is that all those toys weren't in existence when I was learning about hunting. If I didn't need them, then, why would I need them, now?

I'm with you, Art. When my dad first took me hunting 30 years ago, the right equipment included newspaper wadded up in the boots (strangely, it does help keep the feet warm), thermal undies, and a few sour balls to help pass the time. I still wear the coat that he handed down to me that day. :D

Handloader
November 7, 2002, 03:56 PM
I use Camo clothing and tree stands, as a bow hunter yuou find it's allot harder to get a whitetail within 20 yards than it is to get one into rifle range. I do however try to control my scent etc as best I can. I do not however go along with all the products on the market, such as scents, scent lock suits, coverup scents, etc, etc, etc. I think most of the products on the market are being manufactured more to catch inexperienced hunters money more than help harvest a deer. I used to hunt with a young guy that when he showed up at our camp he had more stuff than any sporting goods store I had ever been in, if someone made it for deer hunting he had at least one of everything. After a couple of season he finally came to understand that this does not make a hunter and that spending time in the woods, knowing the animals habits etc. is more important than how much STUFF you have that is supposed to make you irresistable to deer. I alway's try to tell new hunters to do their home work and keep things as simple as possible and to use common sense like keeping the wind in your face, scouting game trails etc works better than all the stuff you can buy at your local walmart, basspro, or cabela's.
Just one hunters opinion. :D

Bogie
November 7, 2002, 04:06 PM
I know one guy who SWEARS that he has a buddy who has...

A heated deer stand. Not a cabin, but an honest to god deer stand.

With carpet. You MUST take your boots off.

And furniture. Nice furniture.

And electricity. For the TV and refrigerator.

He said they go out there, open a window, put a rifle on the rest, and then sorta keep an eye out for deer in one particular location while they watch football. If a deer is darwinistic enough to wander into that portion of the world, then they have to remove it from the gene pool.

I've been told that I've got an invitation should I ever desire to partake in "civilized" hunting.

Al Thompson
November 7, 2002, 05:58 PM
Bogie, if you'll remember, some writer in Precision Shooting wrote about a set up like that.. :barf:

kjm
November 7, 2002, 08:05 PM
You might think I'm kidding, but four years ago, a lawyer friend who came into some big money let me hunt his stand. He's rightfully proud of it. It is one of those small one-room office trailers like you'd see at a construction site. It is on a welded pipe frame that has electricity, heat (no a/c, but nobody hunts in the heat anyway) and a place built in for hoisting the kill up for cleaning. It took a large crane just to lift the building onto the welded platform built for it. I might one day take a photo and post it. It is rediculous, but very comfy to hunt in. The Axis deer come right up to it so you literally could hunt with a pistol. You'd have to see it to believe it.

MeekAndMild
November 7, 2002, 08:22 PM
Now my question is... where exactely is the "sport" in all of this? Har! :D I could ask the same question about the 15 year old girls who hang out in the mall wearing designer clothes, $100 haircuts and $200 shoes, trying to bag a male of the human species. :D

BTW Glockgirl, camis work both ways. You ain't never seen a poacher so scared.

Dr.Rob
November 7, 2002, 08:33 PM
Well I for one bought some cool stuff at Cabela's. Its hard to find a heavy weight wool sweater these days, or a silk turtleneck. Cabela's has that stuff, not to mention the Safari jacket I picked up for a buddy on his way to Africa. Ever been to their store in Sydney? Stopped in to shop, had a caribou sandwich for lunch. Bought a fleece vest and some fishing lures.

I don't use tree stands, or camoflauge, as I hunt in Colorado where you have to wear 500sq inches of blaze orange.

De-Scenting your boots isn't a bad idea regardless of what season you hunt in, but you can get the same effect by not hunting in the clothes you wear at camp while you are gassing trucks, frying bacon, etc etc.

Art Eatman
November 7, 2002, 10:05 PM
Prez LBJ's "ranch hands" went a step farther than just a lah-di-dah plush "stand". There was a high fence around an oat patch, planted right by the elevated mini-palace. Just before daylight, one of the flunkies would close the gate to the patch, leaving the deer trapped inside.

Open a window, poke the gun out, and pick one. Poor old Lyndon missed deer season in 1963, though; Mrs. Oswald wouldn't return his rifle.

:D, Art

MeekAndMild
November 8, 2002, 11:24 PM
KJM, did your friend make one of these?

Redneck deer stand (http://www.swatsr.com/misc/deer.html). Redneck Deer Hunter in a Tree. (http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_deer_tree.htm) Another redneck deer stand. (http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_deerstand.htm)

(BTW, the word "Redneck", is not mine, but was on the sites listed. I couldn't find any "Computer Geek" treestands for some reason.)

bronco61
November 9, 2002, 06:09 AM
Now my question is... where exactely is the "sport" in all of this?

Here in Alaska, I don't know anyone who uses stands, scented underwear, etc. We DO wear camo though.

I have to say we're pretty lucky as we get 5 tags, our deer season lasts from Aug1 - Jan 1 and it doesn't matter what we get after Oct 1. Aug and Sept are buck only.

I will ask this though Ladybug; Have you ever tried hunting deer? They have the advantage of being able to hear and smell you from very long distances. They're quick, smart and jumpy.

If you haven't tried it, go out and give it a try and then you tell us if there's any sport in it or not.

And remember, just seeing a deer doesn't count. That's only part of the challenge during hunting season. Now you have to be able to get a good shot on it.

We're I'm at, shots over 100 yrds are VERY rare as it is a dense rain forest. If you can't jump-shoot while climbing VERY steep, slippery inclines then you won't get one.

Art Eatman
November 9, 2002, 05:44 PM
A few decades back I got into a squabble with a non-shooter, anti-hunter. He explained to me the unfairness of the "no skill needed" in my using a scoped rifle. Exasperated, I made an offer: I'd set up my Nikon with crosshairs on the focal plane shutter, and mount the camera on a rifle stock. I'd set up a trigger, and add weight and balance the rig to the same as my 9-1/2-pound rifle.

I'd take him to my deer lease for two weekends, and he could be a walking hunter with me.

If he brought me a print with the crosshairs in place such that the "shot" would have killed a running deer, I'd pay him $1,000. If he couldn't, he'd pay me $1,000. I spotted him does and yearlings, since I was limited to bucks...

That ended that nonsense.

:D, Art

yorec
November 9, 2002, 06:06 PM
Kinda one point that has been emphasized over and over - Cabela's has all these things for sale. I don't have them in my possession...

I know very few people who even have a majority of the things you've listed, let along use them all. Takes too much work and the fun outta gettin ginto the woods and enjoying it all.

And why don't folks raise deer on a private field? Same reason - I ain't got one. Likely if I did, I still wouldn't raise 'em as you described, but would allow wild ones to exist off the land naturally. That's what conservation and outdoorsmanship is all about - not killing game just cause you can.

super cub
November 9, 2002, 08:03 PM
I've hunted deer all my life and killed quite a few. I've "been deer hunting" many, many times when I killed nothing. On our club in the heart of deer country, deer are very plentiful, but that is NO guarantee that you will even see a deer, much less one worth shooting. I have never killed as many as my season license will allow. The pleasure I derive comes from hosting other people who enjoy our beautiful hunting land, watching the seasonal and animal activity, taking an exceptionally large buck , having my gun in hand, supplying myself and friends with venison, and just being outdoors. The hunters on our club land who hunt from tree stands are well-read, due to having a book handy in the stand (a box or climbing stand). Since we can use rifles, the club rules require we be elevated when using a rifle; otherwise I sometimes hunt sitting on a log with a shotgun or handgun. We have to wear orange, according to state law. We have an understanding that the twelve of us and our guests will not shoot small bucks. We always pass up several small spikes, cowhorns, or four-pointers. In eastern NC, you don't have to wear or use fancy gadgets, you really just have to be here and go hunting on a semi-regular basis to make some kills. However, I will opt for the warmest clothing Cabela's sells in our cold, humid winter climate. Use enough gun, buy a license, hunt where you are welcome and legal, eat what you kill, wear appropriate clothing for the weather, and you are good to go. The biggest deer I have ever seen were killed by grizzled old men wearing multiple flannel shirts and canvas hunting coats (sometimes with a bottle of Peach Snappes in the pocket) using single or double barrel 12 gauges with buckshot , sitting on a stump at the edge of a peanut field on a frosty fall day; this was in a bygone era.

beetlefang
November 10, 2002, 09:06 AM
Ok,

I waited a few days to reply to this...'are you really hunting?'

Yes...if you use everything in Cabela's and sat atop one of the magazines inside a central heated stand...you are still hunting, otherwise they'd call it 'shooting'.

Some hunts are easier than others - in game abundant areas (regardless of the quarry) people often view the hunter as someone taking advantage of an overpopulation of animals. They rarely view it as a management tool to prevent deer/car accidents, mountain lion attacks by your back yard swimming pool, or crows destroying acres of farmland.

We as the dominant species with opposable thumbs, choose to manage our fish and wild game populations. We (most north americans) have learned from the mistake of our ancestors concerning overharvesting of species is a painful. We still have a lot of educating to do - whales, rainforests etc - but being a prohunter doesn't mean you are anti-nature. It means that you are choosing to actively participate as a management control.

The tools you describe from the catalogue are not necessities - but they may be nice to have. It would be like someone owning everything in a Fredericks of Hollywood catalogue for their marriage - I mean , you're not gonna use it all - but you could experiment with some of it 'season after season'.

Like many of the other poster have said, "If it's so easy, you try it." And, I mean really try it - in a public wildlife management area, not a park with hand fed domesticated deer.

If you are turned off by deer hunting, then try hunting a squirrel or crow, or some other small game. Not the one's you see at home...go to a WMA and see how many you even get a shot at.

The bottom line is, hunting is not a guarantee that game will be brought home. I enjoy the 'hunt' the stalking the walking the teaching my sons about the box turtle we just stepped over, and the rattlesnake that we need to avoid. We often hunt in the woods - sometimes we bring stuff home - we are always successful at 'hunting (ie exploring the lands)' sometimes, we even get to use the 7 lbs of gun we're using to harvest a meal.

Respectfully,
Beetle

Keith Rogan
November 10, 2002, 11:13 AM
>>>>>The tools you describe from the catalogue are not necessities - but they may be nice to have. It would be like someone owning everything in a Fredericks of Hollywood catalogue for their marriage <<<<<

I dunno, just as in hunting, I'd say that a guy who relies too much on mail-order marital aids is probably lacking some basic skills...

Art Eatman
November 10, 2002, 11:34 AM
Seems to me the myriad "goodies & toys" bit is not particularly different from a mechanic who's a tool-freak, spending a lot of his paycheck with the Snap-On man. Or the home woodworker who keeps Sears&Sawbuck in bidness, whether or not he actually builds all those home projects.

I think it's more common among guys who didn't grow up in a rural setting, too. You can browse through a catalog and dream about "gonna do", come next season--even though you're stuck in a city, with some desk job. (BTDT) Some of it derives from the average guy's vulnerability to the advertising techniques developed by the world's best psychologists: "Madison Avenue".

My own experience from messin' around in the woods since sixty years ago tells me that little of that stuff creates any unfair advantage over Bambi. No matter how much of it is bought and used, a little wiggle, a bit of a cough, and the party is over for a while. And Bambi rarely looks up into trees; I've had too many of them never notice me when they lie down under my stand and began chewing their cud. (Which, by the way, is hilarious to watch.)

All in all, it's pretty small potatoes...It's sorta like car racing: If you're not spending the grocery money on it, "Hit don' make no nevermind, nowhow."

:), Art

beetlefang
November 10, 2002, 12:18 PM
Keith...I agree...

But,....

Anti-hunters use this argument all of the time - the 'unfair game advantage' to make someone feel guilty about their sport. I guess they may feel better if man ran around in a loin cloth and chased deer with a buck knife - that would be sporting.

I'm just trying to say...I wear camo, carry a gun, and a squirrel call and a duck call. I haven't purchased any of the other items mentioned. But hey, If cabela's were to give me a catalogue of inventory then I wouldn't decline it either; and probably, would never be able to use it all - but I'd try. The same applies to Frederick's ;)

I mean, really all one needs is a single shot H&R in 3006 and one in 12 gauge to kill nearly everything in North America, but we spend lots on nicer equipment - because it's fun. Persons shouldn't feel guilty about their purchases.

I think Art makes the greatest truth to the sporting catalogues...If I'm not fishing, or visiting the Wal-mart fishing aisle, then I'm browsing a Bass Pro catalogue...I guess its just human nature.

kjm
November 11, 2002, 11:54 AM
OK, here is something that is worthy of purchase out of the Cabelas catalog: ANYTHING GORETEX!!! Man that stuff is the greatest stuff ever made. Coupled with poly propylene long underwear, you're able to comfortably sit all day long in warm and dry skivies!

Where I hunt, it doesn't get real cold, but it can get down to the 50's and after sitting an hour or two at 50F can make it seem like -30. You really can get cold.

Also, the dew just soaks your feet when you walk out to where you'll be hunting. I like warm, dry feet, so I have gore-tex boots that I was issued by the Army. I still need gore-tex pants, but I'm working on that. I'll probably go up to Ft. Hood and find them surplus.

Goretex makes it easy to sit and enjoy nature all day long. I don't even shoot all the deer I see. I probably let 50 go for every one I actually shoot, and that means I spend a lot of time just sitting at the base of a tree or up a short tree.

It might be fun to ridicule those who buy the RealTree cammo couches, but any man who has a well-stocked wardrobe of gore-tex has my envy.

labgrade
November 11, 2002, 12:49 PM
Few years back, I bought a suit of camo, fleece Gore-Tex from Cabella's.

Wanted the camo (due to turkey hunting - pattern looks like a Ponderosa pine tree trunk), wanted the fleece 'cause my backpacking Gore-Tex was the basic outer shell nylon & way too noisy for anything sneak-hunting.

Wanted the Gore_tex because it is one fantastic wind-breaker & keeps me dry when hunting in snowy conditions to -10/20 below zero.

A fine combo.

Scents? nope. Have shot deer/elk while smoking a cigarette or hanging out over a camp fire - wind blows scent to 'em & if blowing the other way = they can't smell it.

Scope? yup. My eyes aren't any longer & besides, a scope allows me better precision.

If I want to "be sporting," I'll use my recurve & take a 6X elk off the deck during a break of CNN.

;)

DAVID NANCARROW
November 11, 2002, 01:19 PM
If you think hunting is full of gadgets, try golf sometime! (the only reason they call it golf is because s*** and D*** were already taken:D )

Fred Hansen
November 11, 2002, 01:26 PM
The hunting stuff that they sell in the Cabela's catalog is no different than the almost infinite array of fishing stuff that they sell. And all of the items are designed to do the same thing, i.e. catch humans. The criticism of the hunting stuff comes up because deer are so wuvable and snugglwy. Besides, when the "where is the sport?'' in fishing argument is made, most people break out into hysterical laughter.

I know people with all the gadgets and gizmos in the world that have never gotten a deer. They still go out, year after year, and try to bag a deer. Where is the lack of sport in that? In the original sense of the word "sport" before it was perverted to be a synonym for game, e.g. football, baseball, hockey, etc...

I grew up hunting without anything more than a .22/.410 over/under and a single shot 16 ga. The birds, squirrels, rabbits, and deer I brought home helped to feed my family. Don't like it? Tough.

ReadyOnTheRight
November 11, 2002, 01:50 PM
...I mean, when you're sitting in the woods, in your heated clothing, on a padded seat, are you really get that much of an "outdoors" experience? If you've got an arsenal of tools to attract the deer, as well as tools to help you locate the game, and more tools to guarantee an accurate shot, are you really "hunting"?...

I can only speak about hunting in Minnesota or Wisconsin.

I guess I could "experience" the outdoors better if I didn't have insultated clothing, hand warmers and a padded seat, but then I'd probably also experience frostbite. Warm clothing lets you stay out longer in the -5 to 30 degree temperatures (sometimes colder) common during upper midwest deer seasons. A $10 padded seat lets me sit still under a big tree for a long time -- sometimes long enough to see a deer, pine martin, bear, owl, eagle, hawk, snowshoe rabbit, moose, wolf, or even a chickadee landing on the bill of my hat. I'd say this is quite the outdoor experience.

Some of the scents and other gimmicks may attract deer, but deer in the woods look like...the woods. Outside of being in the right place at the right time (the real art of deer "hunting" by the way), you need to continually look for movement in the woods. A little ear flicker might reveal a deer 20 yards away, but it's more likely you won't see the deer as they move within yards of you. A scope or binoculars do help, but mostly they just help as our eyes get older. Any kind of optics also reduce your field of view.

I'm not sure what tools can help locate game. You use your eyes, brain and maybe a topographical map to look for sign and likely deer paths. A GPS gets you back to the good spots and back to camp without getting lost. It sure can't tell you where the deer are. The only tools I think might possibly actually locate game are close air support or a thermal scope -- which I'm sure are as illegal as shining deer.

I don't know about "guarantees" with any shooting aid, but if you can't take an accurate shot, you shouldn't take the shot. If a shooting stick or scope helps, more power to ya.

As other have suggested, I think it's very worthwhile for you to get out deer hunting and experience the difficulty and magic in spotting a deer in a place where you can actually take a shot. It's a lot different than the hunting shows on TV.

bronco61
November 11, 2002, 03:39 PM
OK, here is something that is worthy of purchase out of the Cabelas catalog: ANYTHING GORETEX!!! Man that stuff is the greatest stuff ever made.

It may be the greatest stuff ever made for the lower 48, but in a short time, you'll be soaked to the bone if you wore it in Prince William Sound Alaska. We can pick out the tourists by their soaked through goretex jackets. In a rain forest where we get 3x the precipitation of Seattle, that stuff just doesn't work.

I totally agree with you on the poly propylene long underwear. Man, that stuff is nice.

Art Eatman
November 12, 2002, 07:31 PM
Ladybug, I'd say there have been plenty of good answers given. I further think it's now time to tell us if you feel the answers seem reasonable and satisfactory to you.

Otherwise, there is no point in continuing this thread.

Art

Salpalinja
November 14, 2002, 03:37 AM
The only gadgets I use while hunting european moose is a vhf-radio and cell phone.

Art Eatman
November 14, 2002, 08:26 AM
I see. Phone the moose; invite him over to debate the comments on some radio talk show? Y'all got some local equivalent of Rush Limbaugh?

:), Art

Mannlicher
November 14, 2002, 09:27 PM
Lady Bug states, among other stupid things:Scopes so you don't really have to know how to aim well


Which pretty much sums up her knowledge of hunting. After having the resource of this forum at her disposal, and to come up with this list of inanities tend to clue one in to her intent.

Salpalinja
November 15, 2002, 02:29 AM
You got it Art :D

Art Eatman
November 15, 2002, 10:08 AM
Hey, Sal, are meese Liberal or Conservative? (This came up, recently, at an uncalled meeting of the GhostTown Porch Sittin', Spittin' and Whittlin' Society. The debate raged for hours' and hours' worth of beer, to no conclusion. Probably due to a lack of meese.)

Art

keano44
November 15, 2002, 07:21 PM
Ladybug..... Hello Ladybug......

Its obvious by your original post that you know nothing about hunting.
You at least owe the people who have responded a reply.

Cowdogpete
November 16, 2002, 12:35 AM
hmmmmmm

Heres how I grew up doing it. And still do, just not very often anymore.

When I wanted a deer, I'd get in my pickup wearing whatever I had on from work. Drive to a spot where I knew there were deer. Sit in the truck for a time not to exceed 30 minutes (I'm impatient that way) Shoot a deer and go home.

Deer are heavily populated here. You dont need fancy guns or high dollar equipment. You can't see more than 75 yards tops through the brush. I never hunted for horns. Never baited a spot.

I used to watch the hunters show up on our place with big 4WD and tons of gear. Hunt the wrong spots and then get stuck. I made extra money pulling them out and quit trying to tell them where the deer were. Most of them knew more than me anyway. Thats because I lived on the place and they only showed up 2 months a year.

I think beef is better anyway. Deer is just camp food. If you have to go buy all the gear, pay a lease, and spend the time, what does that deer dollar out to a pound? Do it because you want to and like to, but don't give me the cheap food line. And leave the Cabelas models at home.

Art Eatman
November 16, 2002, 01:25 AM
Cowdogpete, I've hunted by your method, back at the old family ranch just outside Austin. I've done the walking-hunting thing not far north of Uvalde, as well as stand-hunting. And out here, where we have more lions than deer, walking is about the only way.

I dunno. I just like the taste of deer better than I do beef--particularly when I cook Bambi. Heck, I like quail better than chicken, for that matter.

"Each to his own taste," said the old maid as she kissed the cow.

:D, Art

Fred Hansen
November 16, 2002, 02:36 AM
Have we answered your question?

Peetmoss
November 16, 2002, 09:51 PM
“I was looking at my Cabela's catalog (this is the GENERAL catalog, not even the specific hunting one) tonight, and I have a question for any of you hunters out there... it may sound like I'm being a smart aleck here, but I really am curious.

What I found in Cabela's was:

Full camo clothing that would fool any human, much less a deer”
Most of the deer hunters that use camo around here are using a bow. And it is almost mandatory to do so. I wouldn’t dare go out into the woods in full camo during gun season for deer. Other uses of the camo are for predator hunting. I have never done this but I here it is very beneficial.

”Special lined under garments that mask your scent (some are even heated for your comfort)”
Face it people stink at least to creatures with a better since of smell then we do. However I think that 75% of the time it really doesn’t matter. I have sat there 15 feet from several deer on the same level for 20 min while I proceeded to smoke a cigarette.

”Seats, towers, stands, whatever that are also very well camouflaged (and comfortable) so you don't have to move”
I have a nice camo foam pad that I sit on cause it keeps me dry, and is more comfortable then a stump or a rock. And let’s face it a cold wet butt sitting on a cold wet rock can really take away from the whole being in nature, and enjoying it.

”Very realistic decoys”
For Deer never seen one for waterfowl sure have and they work no better then a cheap home made one.

”Scent marking chemicals to attract deer”
I guess they work I saw a guy get mauled by a buck on real tv cause the buck wanted some lovin from him. Just goes to show you don’t use the scent on a living thing.

”Deer feeders”
Hunting next to a deer feeder is well just wrong in MNSHO. But feeding deer not only helps the hunter but helps the deer as well. They have a source of food to keep them healthy; it also provides the hunter with a more nourished deer to harvest.

”Special fertilizers for the land to ensure big, well-antlered deer”
I have never seen a fertilizer do that they usually promote better crops. But they do make special crops for the hunter to plant to help the deer grow, and make sure they have plenty to eat. This IMNSHO helps the hunter by letting him harvest a bigger deer and helps the unharvested deer survive the winter better.

”Deer calls that replicate lost cow calls, the sound of herds, etc. (not just some whistle or something -- a huge audio system with a pre-recorded CD)”

I have never used a call in my life and I don’t know anyone who has. But some people like them, and I suppose they could be useful.

”A game-finder and ear pieces so that you don't even have to notice the deer yourself”
Never used one or known anyone who has.

”"Steady Sticks" -- basically tripods so that you don't have to hold your weapon steady”
Try holding a 7lb gun or better steady enough to shoot three hundred yards without a rest.

”Scopes so you don't really have to know how to aim well”
This one really bugs me. It is totally false. Scopes do nothing really but magnify the target. But in magnifying the target they also magnify every thing else. Try using even a light magnification scope say 2 power. Watch the scope makes it everything appear to move even greater then with open sights. Not to mention target acquisition with a high power scope it is very hard to get the gun on target from what your brain remembers it saw before you raised the gun. And for a moving target the average guy has one hell of a time hitting anything moving at more then a slow walk with a scope.

And of course this doesn't include the technology of the weapons themselves.

”Now my question is... where exactly is the "sport" in all of this? Why not just domesticate deer and keep a herd, like you would a bunch of cows? You could just raise them to come to you by name, and then one day you could just go into your pasture, call one, and shoot it point-blank... I mean, when you're sitting in the woods, in your heated clothing, on a padded seat, are you really get that much of an "outdoors" experience? If you've got an arsenal of tools to attract the deer, as well as tools to help you locate the game, and more tools to guarantee an accurate shot, are you really "hunting"?”

Well I have a few comments about that. First off I will comment on our status in the world. Human beings generally do enjoy veggies, but were designed to be predators also. The odd part in all this we are at a severe disadvantage in the animal kingdom in all but one area our brains. We can’t see as well as most of our prey, nor can we hear as well, or smell as well. We are also slower then most of our prey, and also weaker then most of the prey we have taken for thousands of years. We have been given a superior brain however. This one single superiority has allowed us to survive and thrive. Technology from the spear to the modern rifle has helped us equal the playing field. Now would you look down on the human that used a spear to feed himself and his family because it was advantages to him?

Cowdogpete
November 16, 2002, 10:50 PM
Art,

I'd rather eat Quail myself. There just aren't many of the little buggers left to shoot anymore.

Art Eatman
November 17, 2002, 10:41 AM
Cdp: Far aints? The (bleep) things are killing quail--and other critters--all the way across the Gulf coast. My little ranch down below Cuero is infested.

Art

Ladybug
November 21, 2002, 12:46 AM
Gosh guys, I feel really bad :(

I didn't know this thread got moved from the General forum to here, so I never saw all the responses since my last post!! THANKS for all the answers -- YES you've answered my question, and I really appreciate it, and I'm happy that no one thought I was insulting them (at least I hope so!) You've pretty much confirmed what I thought -- that most people don't really use all that stuff! :)

keanno, art, others -- please, please don't be mad at me -- I posted this on the General forum, and didn't know it had moved. You're right, I'm not a hunter, which is why I don't visit this forum, which is why I never saw all these replies. :(

bronco61
November 21, 2002, 02:19 PM
Ladybug,

Thanks for getting back to everyone. Your reason for the delay is completely understandable.

I would like to respond to one statement you made: You've pretty much confirmed what I thought -- that most people don't really use all that stuff!

What you may not understand is that even if you did use all that stuff, you still haven't turned "hunting" into "getting". The only thing all those wiz-bang gadgets ensure you is a lighter wallet.