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View Full Version : honest question- not intended to inflame


RevNate
November 1, 2002, 10:52 PM
I've just begun to poke my head into this forum within the last couple of weeks and it seems there is an issue with the sidehammer guns vs. the inline guns. I've read several statements from those who seem to be experienced buckskinners who state that inline guns are not superior to the hammer guns in either accuracy or maintenance requirements. Still, there seems to be an attitude of dislike towards the inline rifles. Why? If they are not superior to the hammer guns, why is it "cheating" to hunt with an inline? Is it just an issue of aesthetics- or am I missing something? Just curious.

Nate

priv8ter
November 1, 2002, 11:21 PM
Hopefully this post stays civil. Being a recent convert to Black Powder, I'll try to give this one a shot.

First of all, I'm not sure where I come in on the accuracy question. I tend to believe that the over riding factor is the man behind the gun, and his devotion to learning that weapon. I am fairly sure that an in-line(IL) is more dependable than a sidehammer(SH). I have used both a Cabela's Hawkins, and a beast of a double-barreled rifle(I think it was Spanish...borrowed gun, heavy as all get out. ) With these two rifles, I don't know how many times I looked down to see that my percussion cap had fallen off the nipple. Also had a problem with a loose screw on the hammer. Caused the hammer to hit slightly off center. No bang. This cost me an Elk. Once again, it's what I get for being too cheap to buy my own gun, and using a borrowed one.

Why is there antagonism between the two groups? Well, I think it stems from the fact the in most states, the season were established after some hard lobbying by what you call Buckskinners. Guys that liked using muzzleloaders, whether SH or even Flint Lock, and felt that they deserved their own season. Hence, Muzzle Loader Season was created.

Firearm companies looked at the guns being used, and looked at the Hunting Regs the way they were written and said, 'Hey, there is room for improvement here!' And so, the IL was created.

One of the advantages an IL has of SH is the fact that a scope can be mounted on it. And then came the Shotgun Primers, and Magnums capable of 200 yard shots. A lot of buckskinners looked around and said, 'What has happened to our season?????' I know over open sights, I set my max range at 75 yards for a shot. Guys are doubling that NO problem. The Buckskinners get upset because they feel there season has been corrupted, and the purity removed from their sport.

I can't say I blame them. I don't really think it is an Elitest thing, allthough I'm sure that will come up somewhere on this thread.

I love Washington, because the rules are stated very clearly. The gun must be muzzleloaded, use a percussion cap, and have no glass sight on it. In my opinion, the scopes and shotgun primers are more the issue than IL vs SH.

Wow...if anyone actually read all this and understood it, I salute you!

Iggy
November 1, 2002, 11:51 PM
There is just a feeling of accomplishment and pride to make meat the way our ancestors did.

I have killed antelope, deer and elk with a copy of the Medina Hawken. Got each one with one shot and each one was a true thrill.
.

I get the same feeling about inlines as I do when I see guys using sonar and all the other gadgets to catch fish.

There is room for us all, but I take pride in hunting with the tools that the old timers used.







..

Tom Matiska
November 2, 2002, 02:41 AM
Once upon a time "muzzle loader" season in PA was actually "primitive weapons" season. FLintlock only, round ball only. no optics.

I strongly disagree with PA Game Commission's decision to allow modern MLs during the early ML doe hunt. Folks hunting deer with bow or flintlock should enjoy the benefit of their own separate season with reduced blaze orange requirement. Scoped inline 209's with pellet driven sabots are legit 150-200 yard weapons. Take away the requirement to look for antlers, and you take away all the fun of wearing camo.


Tom

4V50 Gary
November 2, 2002, 11:35 AM
Tradition. Some folks prefer traditional firearms while others see it as an opportunity to extend their hunting. That's essentially what it boils down to.

As for myself, I'm traditional but if I were to cheat, I'd use a rifled musket barrel to make a flintlock. Nothing like hitting out at 300 yards with ease.

priv8ter
November 2, 2002, 11:42 AM
To extend my earlier marathon:

If the rule books allow it, I guess it's not really cheating. As for extending hunting seasons, I know here in Washington, you do one or the othr, either Muzzle Loader, or modern, or Archery. Once you buy your tag, you have commited.

What it REALLY comes down to is what your goal is. Is your goal to get in the woods and have a great experience, or is your goal to fill your tag using the most modern technologies available. I know there are guys that are so excited just to be in the woods hunting, having the camp experince, actually taking a shot is secondary to them. But, once again, with the rising cost of tags and licences, I can't really blame someone who just wants to fill his freezer.

RevNate
November 3, 2002, 11:42 PM
Thanks to all of you for the insight. I, too am glad to see the discussion has remained civil. I asked the question because I've hunted with both and aside from the difference in appearance, I've never noticed a significant difference between them. I started muzzleloading with a .45 cal T/C Kentucky rifle when the rifle was longer than I was. Getting that ramrod started was quite a feat for a 9 yr. old kid. I later got a hawken .50 and loved it, but it was used and well-worn when I got it. I used up what life was left in it. I then received an inline as a gift. I hunted with open sights then on everything- muzzleloader, modern gun. I have scopes on all of my hunting rifles now (including my inline) because the rules for the definition of a legal buck changed in my state and I felt having some magnification was a valued safeguard against shooting a 2" spike for a doe, etc. I have to admit, I do sort of miss lugging around that Kentucky rifle. But, I do shoot musket caps on my inline. Does that earn me any points? ha ha.

I have decided to get a blackpowder squirrel rifle for a little extra challenge. Maybe that will make up for "cheating"on deer with an inline.

Nate

444
November 3, 2002, 11:59 PM
I have mixed feelings about the in-line guns. First of all, I am not a hard core blackpowder hunter. I grew up in a state where rifles were not permitted for deer hunting. At the time, the muzzleloader was the best choice (best chance of success) over a smoothbore shotgun with bead sight or archery. I still hunt that state every few years, but today, the legal weapons haved changed with technology. They have a "gun season" during which you can use any legal weapon, and they have a primitive weapons season. I normally hunt the "gun" season and intend to use an in-line ML with scope this year. This is a little different situation than the previous posts indicate because again, no rifles are allowed. However, I could be using a shotgun with a rifled barrel and scope, or a handgun with scope. I don't think that using a ML with a scope provides me with any unfair advantage over anyone else.
I am traditional enough that if I was hunting the primitive weapons season, I would use a side lock percussion gun with open sights. I have never owned a flint lock, but if that was my only option, I suppose that would be a good excuse to buy one.

Poodleshooter
November 4, 2002, 05:50 PM
When I was a little kid, during muzzleloader season, the parking lot at the public land I hunted on was empty or had one pickup. Not anymore-it's almost as busy as firearms season. Now, every fella who drags a 30/30 into the woods come firearms season, also has an inline muzzleloader and is out for that extra week of deer hunting. If they simply extended modern firearms seasons in most states, I'd wager that inlines would nearly disappear.

Jimmy Mac
November 4, 2002, 06:56 PM
Inlines would be gone overnight if they were made ileagal to hunt with in the muzzleloader season.

Hardly no one shoots these things for sport and fun.

Alex Johnson
November 6, 2002, 12:02 AM
They didn't have synthetic stocks or look like modern bolt action rifles, but inlines are nothing new, remember they were being used before during and after the civil war in applications of target shooting and sniping, they were called underhammers and they provided a direct line of fire from the percussion cap to the powder charge. Just my two cents into the discussion.

Joe the Redneck
November 11, 2002, 08:10 PM
I just don't see the point to the Hi-Tech ML. Why would you want a scope to make long range shots? Why would you want to use modern bullets fired from sabots for a higher FPS? All the "new" stuff defeats the point of muzzle loading. As a hunter, you just have to be honest with yourself about why you are in the field. If you just need to fill the freezer, get yourself a bolt, lever, semi auto, or any other modern weapon and be done with it. If you want to do it "old school" with a front stuffer accept that fact that you will have to pass on "iffy" shots and may go home with an empty pick-up. The in-lines are an interesting concept and they do have their place. But if it uses shotgun primers, fires sabot jacketed ammo, and is aimed with a scope, it is not traditional. Save it for the open season. Be a good sportsman and give the traditional hunters their season.

Guyon
November 21, 2002, 04:33 PM
Live and let live. Honestly, I could care less what the traditionalists think of my gun. I don't tell them how to live their lives, and I expect the same courtesy.

I use an inline muzzleloader with a scope because it allows me to extend the hunting season in a state where the season is far too short.

Do I shoot it for sport? For fun? Nope. It's a hunting tool that gives me a better chance of filling the freezer by season's end in a legal fashion. Got a six-point buck with it a couple of weeks ago. All I can say is that the meat has been mighty tasty so far.

I don't even look at this part of the board too often because of the negative reception given to inline shooters. But I thought I'd add my two cents to this thread.

Joe the Redneck
November 24, 2002, 08:29 PM
Why is there a special muzzle loading season?

Jimmy Mac
November 25, 2002, 03:24 PM
Yes, most states have a seperate muzzleloading only deer season.

Buckskinners and muzzleloading rifle shooters got togather and called on the lawmakers to grant them a seprate season away from modern firearms.

keano44
November 26, 2002, 12:20 AM
J. Redneck,
Don't kid yourself. The muzzleloading season exists so that the State Wildlife and Fisheries can sell hunters another liscense. People who have the most problems with modern inline users misunderstand the wording in most cases. It isn't necessarily a traditional or primitive weapons season, its a blackpowder or muzzleloading season, at least it is in my state. And many of the hunters who take advantage of the additional opportunities aren't necessarily traditional or primitive hunters, they're DEER hunters who just love to hunt and will take advantage of any and all opportunities available. Personally, I fall into this category. I have taken deer with shotgun, rifle, bow and arrow, muzzleloader, and handgun. I love to hunt, and take advantage of the extra week at the beginning, and at the end of regular gun season. It dosen't bother me if the guy hunting near me wears buckskins, and shoots a primitive weapon. That's his choice. We all challenge ourselves in different ways. When I challenge myself to take a deer with an open sighted handgun, it still dosen't bother me if the next hunter over is using a scoped, high powered rifle.

Ryder
November 26, 2002, 11:28 PM
The only difference to me was that in-line has a sliding cover to keep the rain and snow off the cap. But then I never liked sabots or used pyrodex, even made most of the accessories myself.

The timing of the season here is in December. Rain and snow are standard conditions, if it wasn't raining or snowing you can bet it's so cold that you can't even cap a nipple. The timing of this season is after a whole month of bow hunting and the regular firearms season. Pretty slim pickings for somebody already hunting at a supposed disadvantage. Seems a more likely spot would be to move it up to the two weeks between bow and rifle season or maybe even have it coincide with bow season?

Traded off my in-line for an SKS, back to the side hammers for me. It wasn't enough of an advantage that I can't cope without it. As for telling others what they can or can't do...Well, that's not my thing.

Gewehr98
December 6, 2002, 10:46 AM
Why is there a special muzzle loading season?

Umm, so one can hunt with a rifle loaded from the muzzle? That'd be my first guess. Inline, percussion, flintlock, matchlock, they're all primitive firearms as opposed to the guns intended for the other season - metallic cartridge.

One could argue that the current crop of crossbows, legal in several states, violates the intent of bow season, too. Elitism will always rear it's ugly head. :(

Joe the Redneck
December 7, 2002, 02:54 PM
Yes, I suppose it will rear its ugly head. I guess in the end, when the "law" is not spelled out to the letter, we all have to use our own judgement.

If that makes me a snob, so be it.

Jimmy Mac
December 23, 2002, 11:43 PM
I

Tommy gunn
May 19, 2004, 02:22 AM
Modern inlines are for people with no class.

4V50 Gary
May 19, 2004, 08:23 PM
I have a replica Ferguson so I guess I shouldn't take that hunting. Darn it (as if I could afford to use that as a hunting rifle). Now, if someone were to make a Lazeroni that would be something else.

The Lazeroni flintlock had two internal magazines - one for powder and the other for ball. You turned that handle on the side of the rifle (where the sideplate normally is) and you chambered a ball and picked up a charge of powder. It has to be in absolute perfect working order less the rifle goes kaboom. Considering that the powder was stored in the stock, a kaboom might result in dental work, if you're lucky. :eek: Being a complicated and expensive to make gun, only a few were made (for the aristocracy of course) and the most advanced flintlock of its time never reached the troops (thankfully so as they probably couldn't give it proper care).

Stoney
May 20, 2004, 03:48 PM
I don't own an Inline and never intend to, but if a person choses to shoot or hunt with one, that's there business. I say more power to them. If it goes BOOM,I approve.

faraway
May 30, 2004, 09:05 PM
Inlines, as noted due provide an extension of the numbers hunting with frontloaders. Maybe a good system insofar as that is a little more forgiving (safety related), for those who aren't inclined to be shooting this type of weapon with regularity. Side hammers, specific handling 'rules', often of real interest to those who know the history. Those who don't check on these, could be very troublesome to be around.
There were inlines, as already noted, back in the time when muzzle loading was the norm. But of limited use due to the slower rate of fire, and replacement time for a failed cap. At least compared to the military high water mark of this system, things such as the Enfield and Springfield rifled muskets.
Excepting the rapture of having to carry these 'wagon guns', they do make good hunting rifles. Especially when set up for the old waxed paper catridges, very useful excepting the black teeth.

Mike Weber
May 31, 2004, 01:36 AM
Ya know I run across sort of the same reaction when discussing my "Nipple Guns" Percussion guns with die hard Flintlock shooters at Rendevous events. I do shoot traditional guns in the sence that I shoot sidehammer Percussion and Flintlock guns with real wood stocks, iron sites, and I burn real black powder in them. In terms of accuracy it would take one heck of a shooter to match the performance of my Whitworth with a scoped inline. Not bragging just stating a fact. That rifle is more accurate than the vast majority of shooters out there. I supose that if you wanted to get technical about it you could call my Cap & Ball revolvers Inlines of a sort, in which case then I do own a bunch of inlines. I shoot traditional style guns because I enjoy the sence of history in them.

bytor
June 16, 2004, 09:02 AM
I am not angry with in-line shooters. the gun makers
are of course progressing in technology. I personnely
feel that when a muzzleloader is more reliable and more
accurate than a 30-30. well seems like something is
wrong. I hear the arguement that newer is better, and
that it is more humane to the animal. and all that stuff.

I feel that the modern in lines. have a place in
hunting. During the modern firearm season. I used
to hunt with a muzzle loader. when the state I hunt
in puts in better restrictions on modern muzzle loaders,
I may go back. But to take out a "primative weapon"
that can take a deer out at 200 plus yards. scoped, and
all. well its wrong. just go buy a damn .308 and go
after your deer.

rwilson452
June 17, 2004, 02:25 PM
Here in PA we have two muzzle loader seasons for whitetail. the first season you can use an inline. the later season is strictly flintlock/ matchlock.

Gewehr98
June 17, 2004, 09:35 PM
As my big mutt nicknamed "Snow Dog" sits at my feet, I thought this was kind of odd:

But to take out a "primative weapon"
that can take a deer out at 200 plus yards. scoped, and
all. well its wrong. just go buy a damn .308 and go
after your deer.

See this gun?

http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/10-02/highlights2/DSC_0517tan.jpg

Here's another view:

http://www.lrml.org/collecting/whitworth/images/wwc529-b.jpg

A modern reproduction:
http://johno.myiglou.com/images/whitworth1.jpg

It's a Whitworth muzzleloader, as used by the Confederacy in the Civil War to great effect against Union troops. It's famous for it's almost unbelievable accuracy at long ranges, often out to 1000 yards. Primitive? Sure, and that includes the primitive Davidson brass-tubed scope. But let's not pretend that scoped blackpowder rifles capable of excellent accuracy are a recent invention. ;)

4V50 Gary
June 19, 2004, 08:55 AM
If you're around Seymour, IN, go to the Cracker Barrel there and check out the gun over the fireplace (all Cracker Barrels have guns over the fireplace :) ). It's an antique inline with the hammer and nipple placed direcly in line with the barrel. I didn't remove it from the wall to examine it (should have asked).

BTW, Frederick the Great records shooting with a telescope equipped rifle in his diary. Artist turned militia lieutenant Charles Wilson Peale had instrument maker David Rittenhouse make a telescope rifle for him in the American Revolution. At least five Union sharpshooter companies had (some) telescope rifles with them when they served at the Siege of Yorktown during the Peninsula Campaign (1862).

Tamara
June 19, 2004, 09:24 AM
For those that hunt with both frontstuffers and bows: If you shoot a sidehammer gun, do you also use a recurve self-bow?

Ryder
September 21, 2004, 04:14 AM
You mean like these? http://www.bowsofwood.com/

I'd love to get one of those for Christmas!

I've used both types of bows. I owned the first Jennings compound model ever sold and I had shot bows for several years before that came out. I very much prefer the light weight quietness and simplicity of a longbow or recurve. I stuck plenty of critters and targets with both types. Never was into sights or releases, never used a carbon arrow. Some newfangled technology ain't all it's cracked up to be as there are tradeoffs I am not willing to make.

I believe there are logical limitations to how far retrotech can be taken on a case by case basis. For instance who among us would trade their current modem for one of the first models to hit the shelves? :eek:

BluRidgDav
September 21, 2004, 09:52 PM
Not Recurve, Tamara, but Longbow.
Matches up nicely with my Early Virginia Flintlock Longrifle.

BRD.

Big Ruger
September 22, 2004, 10:17 PM
I guess I also have mixed feelings on the subject. I started out hunting with a repro. kentucky rifle, and I always felt the difference is that sidehammer guys kill to have hunted and inline guys hunt to kill. Thats not a shot by any means just what I thought. Then two years ago my little bro decided to buy a ML, and came to me to see what I thought. I told him I would not buy an IL he then asked me if I thought that if Jed Smith or John Colter had access to a IL rifle over a SH gun would they use it? He had me I think they would have. Just my two cents. By the way I like this place you folks got here. I was cut adrift when Marlin quit theirs, so its nice to be here. E

Bezoar
October 20, 2004, 05:19 PM
many of the new sidelocks come with predrilled holes for scopes and many are coming with scopes already installed.

The only difference with a IL and a Sidelock is that the breech on an inline is designed to be removed without voiding any warranties and enables you to get a nice shine to the barrel without having to worry if theres any residue were the bore meets the breech plug.

And the trigger on my inline is horrible. The trigger moves 1 inch before it fires the gun.. two stage trigger?

drinks
November 8, 2004, 10:40 PM
Does anyone remember the "Harmonica"
caplocks of the 1860's to 1890's?
These were not only inlines, but repeaters, heaven forbid!
Very few new things around.
Some of us advanced age types need some help with sights, also , some of the old sights were very sorry, I have a 1900 made Win.'94 that has some of the worst sights I have ever lost sight of against a brush background, a real challenge to use and a very good chance of blowing a shot, or worse , hitting way too high or low.
;)
Don

faraway
November 9, 2004, 12:44 AM
Yes, the Browning family made some. And often the harmonica's, superimposed loads, Colt's revolving rifles, and such were unintentional repeaters.
Due to that problem, not likely we'll see repros of these designs.
And that's why muzzleloading often is perceived as a primitive technology...much of the advances (or tech mistakes) are either very rare, or not being reproduced.
In lines, whatever, can't see any practical advantage over a 1850's-1860's rifled musket. Excepting the Sharp's that was the most advanced the historical stuff was, at least in general use.
Gods, I wonder what a state fish&game would make of a revolving, harmonica, or superposed load muzzle loader?

drinks
November 9, 2004, 10:13 AM
Faraway;
Texas P&W specifically rules out the revolving carbines and rifles on the grounds they are not muzzleloaders.
:)
Don

faraway
November 9, 2004, 09:48 PM
Oh well, if I manage to acquire several thousand dollars, figure out how to use the thing without it flashfiring the cylinders, keep all my fingers intact...alas can't come to Texas with it. Mayhaps the law was meant to keep the Dragoon/Walker contingent off the deer?
But that still leaves the superimposed rifles...these are muzzleloaders, and often were unintentional rapid fire weapons. Scare every deer in the country, and the poor fool firing it...after the first shot.
And what about the Hall?

drinks
November 21, 2004, 09:19 PM
Faraway;
Surely, you would not use a variant of the 1200 yr. old technology of the Chinese "Roman Candle" against a "pore ol' deer"?
:D
How non PC can you get?
Don

faraway
November 22, 2004, 09:50 AM
The deer, probably would be looking forward to the spectacle.
That said, I wonder what the state fish& game would do, if somebody turned up with a arbaquis, hande gonne/cannon, or the like? Including the early iron, lead, or stone projectiles...
Or a church bell with a very large arrow stuck in it...

mpi
November 22, 2004, 10:13 AM
i usually don't hunt with my matchlocks for the obvious reason, but have with my wheelocks. quite the challenge.
pat

oconnell
January 30, 2005, 05:19 PM
It dose not matter I have my values and somebody else has theres the new inlines are neat but they have no history to them they are modern guns H&R started the craze back abought 1968 with their muzzle loading 12 gauge Huntsman the first inline gun now 30 years later every body is copying it Well I like it all I was the first Kid on my street to have a 12 gauge H&R Huntsman way back in 1971 I basicly grew up with it I still have it I use it all the time Thats right target shoot hunt round ball shot it dose it all well I also hunt with a jap matchlock and a 14 th century Handgonne a repro of Morko hand gonne and brown bess all I can say is lets not bicker lets celebrate that so many people are enjoying the shooting sports

4V50 Gary
January 30, 2005, 06:39 PM
First, I don't care for modern in-lines. No "feel" to them for me. That woudln't stop me from using one though. At that point I'd look at it as a frontiersman would - it's a tool. As to historic precedents, the earliest in-line I know of was made from parts of a Hall breech-loader. Besides being ugly :barf:, it was hated by the Confederates who received them.

getonit
February 16, 2005, 05:44 PM
I am proud to say I shoot a Savage 10MLII "smokeless" muzzle loader- yes -it's an inline- and no I don't use it for just the muzzleloader season- here in Ohio its alsomy gun for the general gun season- the accuraccy and range tops the shotguns by far- I still like my sidelocks but the savage is my hunting gun- and it's one of the safest guns out there!

beenthere
February 16, 2005, 08:28 PM
Unfortunately a very large percentage of M/L shooters don't do much to try to foster interest in their concept of shooting. When I've tried to learn anything from most of them here, and where I lived in N.M their attitude was more like "Davy" learned without getting scalped and so did I. so go find out for yourself. It's no wonder many newcomers to blackpowder sought out something which was slightly more familiar to them to learn with. Many aren't farm boys who can learn out behind the barn. It takes an effort to find a place and time to acquire some measure of skill so they don't want to waste the time. In addition, the bad comments I've seen about "Spanish Barrels" in some posts turns most people away from the only entry level side-hammer styles they can afford and shifts them to the only other available firearms which happen to be in-lines.

suthincomfort
June 25, 2006, 03:12 PM
HERE in arkansas you have to wear a bright orange vest to deerhunt . sorta ruins it for those of us that'd like to hunt with buckskins etc. i just grab the possibles bag n orange crappy vest n go in whatever i'm in when going. all the camo in the world won't help when ya gotta wear orange. :( :rolleyes:

suthincomfort
June 25, 2006, 03:12 PM
HERE in arkansas you have to wear a bright orange vest to deerhunt . sorta ruins it for those of us that'd like to hunt with buckskins etc. i just grab the possibles bag n orange crappy vest n go in whatever i'm in when going. all the camo in the world won't help when ya gotta wear orange. :( :rolleyes:

DonR101395
June 25, 2006, 03:22 PM
I strongly disagree with PA Game Commission's decision to allow modern MLs during the early ML doe hunt. Folks hunting deer with bow or flintlock should enjoy the benefit of their own separate season with reduced blaze orange requirement. Scoped inline 209's with pellet driven sabots are legit 150-200 yard weapons. Take away the requirement to look for antlers, and you take away all the fun of wearing camo.

Does that mean that you should only be allowed to bow hunt with a long bow also? Just curious, because I've never heard much arguing amonst bow hunters who used compound bows vs long bows.

Smokin_Gun
June 25, 2006, 04:03 PM
Live and let live. Honestly, I could care less what the traditionalists think of my gun. I don't tell them how to live their lives, and I expect the same courtesy.


It's this kind of additude that kindles the feelings of Traditional(Real)Muzzleloader Hunters/Shooters to feel as they do towards In-Line Modern so called Muzzleloaders... I surely will extend the same courtesy that you just did.
I could care less about In-lines as long as they don't continue to screw up hunting and/or gun laws for the rest of us.

Smokin_Gun
June 25, 2006, 04:30 PM
I supose that if you wanted to get technical about it you could call my Cap & Ball revolvers Inlines of a sort, in which case then I do own a bunch of inlines. I shoot traditional style guns because I enjoy the sence of history in them.


:eek: Blastfamy!!! They ain't no such thing...LoL! They is Cap&Ball Revolvers is what they is Historically, Traditionally, and Actually Factually...HeHe!

Wild Bill Bucks
June 26, 2006, 12:27 PM
I have owned both, and I don't have any problem with either type as far as accuracy, or cleaning, as both types will have to be cleaned after use. I choose to use an inline simply because I don't want to sit in the rain all day, and get a shot, just to have the water soaked percussion cap, snap. I have tried all kinds of plastic around the cap, and a rubber over the barrel, and all the other things that is supposed to keep them dry. I have also missed several deer because of dampness, using all these techniques. Inlines will go off when you pull the trigger, and so far, I have not had a primer cap that didn't fire the load, rain or no rain.

I use a scope simply because of my eye-sight, and not being able to see my open sights anymore. I don't feel that it makes me any better shooter, than when I was using open sights, but it does enable me to see what I'm shooting at, much better.
The more innovations that are made to a sport, just makes the sport more popular, and lets face it, there are plenty of deer to go around.
Having an inline Vs traditional isn't going to make you a better hunter or a better shooter.

sundance44s
June 26, 2006, 01:35 PM
Couldn`t help but throw in my 2 cents .. after much thought and much obersavation ... i think us old farts like to do things the hard way because we only wish to be as much a man as our fore fathers .... thats what makes us proud ... and it has something to do with the way we were brought up ..
The young men of today , they were brought up in a high tech world ..and to them an in line gun is pretty primitive ....guys remember your first car? now remember your sons first car ? do you see what i mean ? lets just be proud they are out there hunting and hope they eat what they kill ... and i`ll die a happy front stuffing , side lock shooting ...hero in my own mind . inline guys ..happy hunting ..and lets keep die hard Americans able to feed their selves .. and protect their right to keep and bear arms ... no matter where the cap is on their guns .

P-990
June 26, 2006, 09:23 PM
Wow.

I personally haven't been muzzleloader hunting in a few years. I distinctly remember my first time, at the end of the day, taking aim at a rotting old tree stump and getting a sharp WHACK!! out of my sidehammer. Talk about disappointing when I was expecting a great loud KABOOM!! :( I learned how to keep a sidehammer running and fired a couple quite a few times.

Just today though, I went out an traded for a brand-new Thompson Center Encore Pro Hunter Katahdin 209x50. What a major difference! Where my old sidehammer with a #11 cap would start to misfire after 3 rounds, the Encore will reliably set everything ablaze. Doesn't kick too badly loaded with 2 Pyrodex pellets and a Powerbely bullet either.

I'm admittedly looking forward to taking it deer hunting this season. Although I am considering a companion .45-70 barrel for it for regular deer season, I may just use it as-is the whole season. We'll see.

Now someday I'd really like a .45 cal flinter for a range gun. But for making meat, honestly, I want the inline and the 209, as long as the law allows it.

Steve499
June 28, 2006, 09:31 AM
DonR101395, there is quite a similar division in the bowhunting community. The compound bow shooters are comparable to the in line shooters, the recurve and longbow shooters comparable with the sidehammer percussion shooters, and the primitive all-wood-and-sinew-I-made-it-myself folks comparable to those who only go with flintlocks or earlier technology.

Several others have stated the same thing I feel about the issue. Personally, I just don't like in lines. I will not hunt with one only because I think they are UuUuUgly! I don't own a compound bow for exactly the same reason, along with their complication which makes them difficult to do any repairs without a bow vise, etc. That said, I am happy others have discovered hunting through the use of whichever technology they have chosen. In our modern world the hunting community has diminished as a percentage of the population to such a degree that we just can't afford to have internal squabbles about equipment. The anti-hunting people just love it!

Steve

gmatov
June 28, 2006, 10:13 PM
Steve,

Absolutely correct. I don't like them either, but that's just me. Anyone else wants one, he's welcome to them.

Same as the gungrabbers taking them away 1 type at a time. The way they did in Australia, England and Canada.

"Assault weapons" were OK to go by a large number of shooters who don't use them. Who cares? Semis have been targeted. Bullets have been targeted.

Now, we sound like we'd just as soon take ILs away from hunters who find them easier to shoot than traditionals.

Remember, they take away theirs, yours will be next, and they won't care if they take away yours, because they are no longer in the shooting sports.

We hang together or we hang seperately.

Cheers,

George

(I think someone famous said that about 230 years ago.)

DonR101395
June 28, 2006, 10:31 PM
Thanks Steve, GM,
I haven't hunted in a few years since moving to Florida. I used to hunt bow (Bear Kodiak recurve), but never got into the blackpowder much. I've been getting more interest in BP as of late though and have to agree I don't care for the inline rifle looks, but I'm glad people are at least getting out and shooting.

Desertfox
July 1, 2006, 02:20 PM
My 2 cents. I started deer hunting with a used compound bow. No firearm season was available in my Texas county. I learned to hunt with it and bagged my first deer the second season. Advanced to a new compound and had more success. I learned and got better hunting and took up a recurve. Took my first deer with a recurve. Loved it!
I moved to a county that has all three seasons. I bought a rifle and took deer the first year. I still hunt archery season with success but wanted to learn firearm hunting. I purchased an IL muzzleloader last year and shot my first deer with open sights. Loved it!
Now I am wanting to build my own flintlock and harvest a deer with it.
If I didn't experience the IL muzzleloader hunting, I probably wouldn't be wanting to go more primative.
I just think that any type of hunting that is legal and done with good respect for others and the wildlife is a great thing. I am thankful every day I walk into the woods with whatever weapon I choose.
Freedom of choice, I carried an M16 for 9 years to ensure you can carry whatever the law allows into your local woods.
Enjoy it and enjoy having the ability to express your opinion.

Wayner
July 5, 2006, 09:53 AM
When people talk about the sidelocks being inferior and inefficient because of misfires in the rain or whatever there are two reasons to me. One reason is that there are unscrupulous venders out there that sell bad guns cheaply constructed. That is one of the main reasons the in-line took root. Cheap sidelocks that were difficult to keep shooting. Cheap sidelocks with the wrong rifling twist and depth for conicals. Cheap sidelocks with flash channels with 90 degree route from the cap to the powder. ect. ect. A lot of people didn't know how to keep the guns shooting consistantly. Then the inline was born out of those frustrations and was touted as better. They were in general. They finally had rifling condusive to firing conicals accurately. Flash channels that had a straight route from the flash to the powder ect. ect. In the early years of the inlines it was just difficult to buy a good sidelock. It was even more difficult to buy a good custom sidelock. In general the inlines were and are still better guns than most sidelocks for the general shooting fraternity. A buckskinner may take even the cheapest sidelock out and make meat efficiently but only because they understand the problems with the guns and know how to make them work well. They understand the inefficiencies of the sidelocks.I'm not saying the side locks are not good guns. I guess I'm saying too many of them were just cheap junk and a lot of people didn't understand why.If there wasn't so many cheap junk ill designed sidelocks on the market the inline would never have been born.
The other reason sidelocks are considered inferior is the lack of understanding about shooting blackpowder and muzzleloading rifles. A good sidelock is just as efficient of a hunting weapon as an inline rifle. The person just has to know how to keep the sidelock shooting well in all the different weather conditions. The sidelocks are just as faithful as the inline if the person knows what they are doing with them. I have sidelocks that I've hunted deer with for 25 years. I was lucky to have read magazines and such (MuzzleBlasts ect. ect.) to teach me the knowledge the old timers used to keep making meat with them. I learned because I was fixated on hunting like "Jerimiah Johnson" hee hee I've hunted in pouring rain for a week just to finally take my shot at the buck with a rifle loaded the first day of the season. The sidelock Hawken fired just fine after a week in the rain.I knew how to keep the powder and cap dry. I improvised on the old timers act of using wax to seal the cap and muzzle. I knew how to do it even in the rain if need be and carried the tools to do it. I later improved the method by using a percussion cap can full of "Toilet sealing wax" to seal the gun. Sticky wax. I had my brother drop my rifle in a creek crossing and have it submerged in the water and still days later kill a buck with it and had no fear of misfire and didn't reload the gun after using it in the rain and having it fall into the creek and be submerged. The cap was sealed with the sticky wax and the muzzle was sealed with a little circle of wax cough drop wrapper stuck to the muzzle with the sticky toilet ring wax. hee hee The gun would have fired under water if need be, hee hee There are people that can hunt all day in the rain with a flintlock and have it fire when the need arises. The average guy doesn't have the time or interest to mess around with all that kind of stuff. They work hard all week and want to pick up a rifle and go hunt without all the finicky tricky stuff to contend with. The inlines were built for them. The average working man that doesn't have the time nor inclination to be like a buckskinner and learn all the tricks of the trade. Anyhow I'm a dyed in the wool traditionalist but I know a good rifle when I see one and the inlines are good rifles mostly. There are still cheapies out there and it pays to stick with the major manufacturers and pay the money for a good one. There are inlines out there that bullet weight for bullet weight and vel. for vel. they are firing projectiles that rival the 458 Winchester magnum and the 30-06. There is a rifle out there that can fire 250 grains of powder! Well if a guy doesn't give in to the urge to try to shoot beyond his capabilities and wound game with his long range inline rifle then the rifles can be efficient hunting tools. The sidelocks can be very fine hunting tools too. Just not as flat shooting or as far shooting as most inlines. In truth though how many men take the time to get to be good enough with their new inlines to shoot out to 200-300 yards off-hand and be ethical while hunting game animals? I think most average people are lucky to hit a kill zone of a game animal consistantly at 50-75 yards. I guess I'm saying that sidelocks and inlines both are up to the task of hunting game when the capabilities of the average hunter are taken into account. Within the distances that the average hunter(over worked and little time for range practice) can shoot consistantly even the "round lead ball" is plenty of bullet to kill most anything. I build sidelock Hawkens rifles for hunting and display. I have made round ball guns and conical guns. The right barrels and rifling for whichever projectile a person wishes to shoot. I hunt with a homemade Hawken that fires a 500 grain lead bullet over 75 grains of FFg powder and it will keep up with and even out shoot an inline using twice the powder even at long range. My rifle is effectively a 45/70 shooting the 500grain bullet. Slow and deadly even on large game out to 800 yards and beyond. Using 75 grains of powder. It is actually akin to a Sharps or Rolling block rifle shooting blackpowder cartridges. Rainbow trajectory galore. The longest shot I've taken on deer sized game? About 100 yards. Most of my shots anymore are as close as three yards on deer. I'm old and can't see well and wait fer the shot. I get my limit of deer every season. Lucky and experienced I guess. I can use the round ball which is a very efficient killer of game or the conicals. I have both types of rifles. I've never had a deer escape the killing powder of a lead round ball. They go down right now! I guess I'm saying the 150 grains of powder and all the conicals shooting from inlines like high powered smokeless rifles aren't needed. I guess I respect the use of the inlines and the hunters that use them though because the inlines are efficient hunting tools. Anyhow...if anyone is wondering how I can load a 45/70 lead bullet weighing 500grains into my muzzleloader I'll tell you. The rifle barrel maker that made the barrel for me rifled it the same as his 45/70 cartridge barrels and made a bullet swage from the end of the barrel after rifling it. The bullets are placed on the bullet swage and are tapped thru base first with a rubber hammer and then driven thru with a dowell rod. The bullet is engraved with the rifling so loading is very easy. Without the bullet swage the bullets would turn into lead mushrooms when trying to load them into the muzzle. hee hee I've been pondering gettin one of those Savage rifles that are muzzleloading and can use modern smokeless powder. hee hee I'd like to build a Hawken that could use smokess powder. Just for the challenge of it. I'm thinking of building a muzzleloader that is made from converting a Sharps rifle from cartridge to muzzleloader. I'd like to convert a Remington Rolling Block cartridge rifle to muzzleloader too.Hee Hee Cartridge rifles aren't lawful in this state I live in. Funny. Inlines that are more powerful than quite a few good cartridge rifles are allowed but not the cartridge rifles. Cartridge rifles like the 45/70 and the 30-30, and the 44 magmun carbine lever action. There are inlines that are farther shooting and more powderful than those but the cartridge rifles aren't allowed in this state. Maybe I should get an inline that can fire a 250 grain projectile in the 458 Winchester or 30-06 range of power?

Doubletaptap
July 9, 2006, 08:37 AM
No comparison. Totally different animals.
The only thing they have in common is you load em in front.
The caplock is a very dependable ingition system. So is the 209 primer,maybe even a little more so because it's refined and engineered to death.
The inline is built to fire heavy or light projectiles with emongus loads of powder for long distances accurately.
The caplock would not stand the pressures of inline loads without hammer blowback or blowing the drum off the barrel.
I've seen the inside of a lock tore apart by a fool and his (too much) powder.
Both can be fun to shoot. Both will make meat. Both can be very accurate.
Both can be expensive. Both can give you trouble.
It's up the owner what they enjoy. I don't see why there has to be a "which is better". It's like comparing a single shot bolt action to a semi-auto.
I figger if ya want to make a muzzleloader shoot like a 30-06, save time and frustration and go get a 30-06.
Inlines vs Cappers. No comparison. Same as flinters vs rope burners or wheelies. They're just two different type machines.

Sarge
July 9, 2006, 09:35 AM
I suppose that many hunt with a ML to get an extra week or two to of deer hunting, depending on your state. I have done this myself.

The inlines have advantages in pure performace- no doubt. I don't sneer at the inline guys for employing those advantages, anymore than I feel animosity toward the guy using a scoped 7mm Mag, while I am out hunting with an iron-sighted 4" S&W .44 magnum- or my primitive-sighted .50 Hawken. He is going to make shots that I can't even think about. That's OK. The deer I have killed with my old sixgun will be remembered, long after those I have placed in the crosshairs of my 30-06.

Handgun hunting has taught me that all hunting is a game of self-imposed limitations. Hunt with whatever you want, but be man enough to not whine about the other guy's rig. You can always go get yourself a .278 Superwakazooma Short Fat Ultramag and a 39 power tacticool night scope with rangefinders, mildots and about 12 other things clutter your field of view. You might even see the deer you kill well enough to remember what he looked like in his natural element, right before you sent that mini-ICBM into his neighborhood.

It'll be cool with me if you do. I'll be the guy over the hill, who plunks an inefficient old .44 or .50 slug through the ones you scare out- when that howitzer goes off.

It's all good. At least we're out here hunting, instead of sitting on the couch listening to some moron explain what last week's news 'meant'.

contender6030
July 9, 2006, 03:40 PM
I'm sorta on the fence with this subject, I have a TC scout which is an inline but used percussion caps. I love shooting my scout but have often wondered if there wasn't a way to convert it to 209 primers just for reliabilitys sake.

Sarge
July 9, 2006, 04:50 PM
I converted the Hawken to use musket caps, and have no misfires and faster ignition as a result. I always liked the Scout. See if you can find a musket nipple for it, and you may just find it enough of an improvement to make you happy.

kcajeel
July 31, 2006, 02:37 PM
Why be so resistant to change and improvement. Thats why I didnt have the Amish to build my barn. Theyre stuck in the 19th century. You dont have to have an inline to kill deer. I'm 61, been a small game hunter all my life. Owned a knight for about 13 years, but not interested in shooting a deer. I sure like to take it out to my range tho. Along with my 44 Kentucky percussion, and my ar 15. Everyone is different, cant we get along, lol. My 2 cents, thanks

Smokin_Gun
August 1, 2006, 02:00 AM
Why be so resistant to change and improvement.

I'm not against change or improvement as long as it doesn't close muzzleloading Deer season in specific areas, or my 2nd Amendment Rights/rules declassifying "antique firearms" and having to register them. Pay FFL fees, ect.
I'm a Traditionalist, don't really wanna see an In-Line at my Rondevous. My choice and reasons are very valid and you did ask. People spend alot of time and money and the money ain't nothin' compared to being able to shoot at a Rondevous with others that appreciate our Heritage. Or Hunt like it was done 200 years ago. There's alot more to it than a gun.

In-lines got there place, I just hope the Traditional sidelocks don't get dragged into the in-line place when the rules get changed.
I won't own one they are too dang ugly...LoL!

sundance44s
August 1, 2006, 02:52 AM
Musket caps ? clean it right and ya don`t need Musket caps or 209 primmers .

Doubletaptap
August 2, 2006, 12:10 AM
There will always be a rivalry.
My home forum has a rivalry between cappers and flinters. I get razzed all the time(good naturedly of course) about preferring a capper to a flinter because I just never had any luck with a flinter. Maybe because I never had a good properly tuned one.
And there we barely dare say the word...choke...gasp...INLINE!!!!!:eek:
Inlines have their place, but I don't care for them. If I'm going to spend all that cash on a gun and supplies for a inline,I'd rather send the cash to Jackie Brown and have him make me a fine rifle.(capper of course)
It's good for extra sales in the stores to sell inlines. They're practically indestructible if used normally and shoot long distance quite well if you don't mind the kick of 150gr. of FFG on a 300+ gr. bullet knocking you down when you touch her off!!!
It's good extra money for muzz season licenses and again,there'll always be a rivalry!

FirstFreedom
August 9, 2006, 01:02 PM
I could care less about In-lines as long as they don't continue to screw up hunting and/or gun laws for the rest of us.

Smokin Gun, I'm trying to understand your perspective, but I must say I'm having a hard time.

How is it again that inlines and/or inline hunters 'screw up' hunting and gun laws for the traditional sidelockers?

You also raise red herrings. If you don't like *seeing* inlines, then by all means, don't go to a camp with people who use them. Choose a new camp. Hunt solo. And as for re-classifying sidelock MLs into firearms, so that you have to register your sidelock? First, you don't register guns (in most states anyhow), you go through a background check. Second, that's simply a matter of politics and politicians you (we) vote for. Do you think that people who use inlines are actually going to vote for politicians who would want to extend gun restrictions & gun "control", in any way, let alone expanding background checks or registration to MLs? No, not any of us with any political conscience. So therefore it's no more likely to result in a change in those type of laws than if inlines did not exist and/or were not legal during ML season. One's got nothing to do with the other. And third, it's ONLY the smokeless powder ML (Savage 10) and the MLs that can accept other centerfire barrels that require a white form, not any other MLs. If the gov't doesn't even perform a check on inlines which are BP only, then they're surely not going to come after your precious sidelocks. And finally, what's stopping you from using completely traditional gear during ML season, regardless of the regs? Or for that matter, during regular gun season? Get over yourself, and like someone said, live and let live. I don't see how it's harming you in any way. But maybe I'm missing something; please explain if I am. Actually, I can see one valid point you may have here. *To the extent that* a state requires orange during primitive season *solely due to* the extended range capabilities of the 150 gr inlines, then I can see why that would irritate you if you want to wear buckskin with fringe and coonskin hat. BUT, many states may have come to the conclusion that orange should/ would be required for safety's sake regardless of ML equipment type allowed - after all, primitive MLs still have a MUCH longer and more deadly range than any archery equipment, and second, even if the state didn't mandate it, wearing orange would be a good idea, and I would probably still use it. Maybe an orange-banded buckskin outfit? When there's a bunch of people in the woods, on diminishing public hunting grounds and such, orange is just the smart thing to do.

Doubletaptap, I disagree - they are not two "completely" different animals (for those of us who use lighter loads, similar to BP charges). They are essentially exactly the same - the only differences are that (1) Traditional guns are pretty (for the most part); the inlines are ugly (for the most part), (2) the inlines have removable breech plugs, which makes cleaning easier & better, and (3) the primer is shielded from moisture, as WBB alluded to, unlike a caplock perc cap. It is specifically these last two things which make some of use choose them to carry over a sidelock, and thus sacrificing looks to get these two things. The other thing of more power, yes that's an issue to some people, but I think they're kidding themselves, because most of them don't know their holdovers past 150 yards anyway with a heavy .50 cal bullet, 150 gr of BP equiv. or not. But there's nothing about a sidelock that prevents its user from using (1) powder pellets, (2) scopes, (3) FO sights, (4) conical and/or saboted bullets, and (5) BP equivalent substitutes that are easier to clean up, like Pyrodex and 777. All these are "cheats" which are not necessarily exclusive to inliners.

I would have no problem if the state said that primitive must be primitive in all respects (sidelock, no scope, nothing but loose powder, no conical bullets; only patched balls, no removable breech plugs, no fiber optic sights, no smokeless powder, etc., etc.). In fact, I would probably get into it bigtime. But the state does allow this stuff, and since they do, most people like me DO end up viewing it as just a way to extend rifle season in order to make it more likely to fill the freezer. Plus, as it happens in this state, the ML season corresponds much better to the pre-rut phase than the later rifle season, and so there is a higher chance of success for both bucks and does, so we do want to be in the woods that week. But hey, actually for this very reason, I would still want to be in the woods during this time even if they went back to making primitive truly primitive. In fact, what would be very cool is if they went back to all primitive, round balls and all, AND then move the ML season one to two weeks later than it is, so that it corresponds to the peak of the rut! Right now, there's a two-week period between ML and rifle seasons which is archery only, and this is when the rut peaks.

Anyway, sidelocks are very cool. But inline users should not be looked on as some kind of lepers. I'd actually even support the wildlife department changing it's rules back to more traditional, at the very least no scopes allowed, as it is in Colo. primitive. But until then, I'm going to use every available legal advantage (except smokeless, which IS legal here) during ML season, to fill the freezer. Now, when my hunting skills increase, I can definitely see myself eschewing the inlines for more and more traditional, to make it more challenging. Caplock, no scope, no pellets, patched ball...

Oh, and Deserfox brings up an excellent point:

I purchased an IL muzzleloader last year and shot my first deer with open sights. Loved it!
Now I am wanting to build my own flintlock and harvest a deer with it.
If I didn't experience the IL muzzleloader hunting, I probably wouldn't be wanting to go more primative.

I'm basically the same way - I probably would not be interested as I am in the sidelocks had I not started with the inline with the initial thought of just extending rifle season.

Same thing for archery. I went to an archery tourney last year put on by a traditional archery club. I had the ONLY compound bow there. NOW, as a result of talking with them and seeing their recurves, longbows, and even one-piece self-bows, and hearing the stories of the game taken with them, now I want a traditional bow myself. And, I did not hear one disparaging word uttered about my compound bow. So that's a lot more than I can say for the elitist traditional BP shooters on these forums!

So, in reality, allowing more technology will lead to more people "going primitive" as time goes by, so it adds to the numbers on the traditional side of it - to YOUR sport, Smokin Gun and others. So, it seems to me that the only way you can be against it is if you're wanting to reduce or keep steady the numbers of people in your sport, instead of wanting to increase the numbers partaking of your sport. I don't know - are you wanting to increase or hold steady, if you had your druthers? I can see not wanting to increase the numbers, so that you have the woods more to yourself during primitive season, though. So in truth, I guess I must reluctantly admit you have a point.

Smokin_Gun
August 9, 2006, 02:27 PM
I was trying to keep the discussion a dissussion. With my views on the matter being viewed. I surely didn't start the discussion or topic, seems my post struck a nerve with you. Now I guess you'll have to get over yourself also.
Seems you deemed to turn to my views with a story that implies an Personal attack on me...
So sorry you can't keep views as views from one indvidual to a forum. I stopped reading yours when you started making personal attacks. I will stop right now in compliance with the Forum rules.

sundance44s
August 9, 2006, 03:47 PM
Tempers always flare when it comes to inlines vs. sidelocks ... kinda like remmie vs. colt ..what ever ya sling hot lead with be sure of your shot and your abilitys... make your kills as quick and clean as possible .. and don`t point the business end of that thing at nothing ya don`t want to eat .// (unless your under attack).. If there`s a head on yer wall there should be meat on yer table .

FirstFreedom
August 9, 2006, 03:57 PM
I was just asking questions. Show me where I made a 'personal attack'. I'll glady revise.

Was this it:

Smokin Gun, I'm trying to understand your perspective, but I must say I'm having a hard time.

How is it again that inlines and/or inline hunters 'screw up' hunting and gun laws for the traditional sidelockers?

Because that's certainly not one. Yes, you definitely struck a nerve with your elitist attitude, but au contraire; I went out of my way to NOT personally attack you. Pointing out the fact that the legal issue of registration or background check is a red herring to the subject of ME harming YOU by ME using an inline, is not a personal attack. I can only conclude that you don't have a rational response to my questions, or else you would post them. Yes, I am having a conversation directed mostly at YOU, because YOU (along with others) are the one who started in about inlines messing up your life somehow. I don't see how, so I asked you to clarify. So far, you have not. In addition, I conceded in my post that you make 2 valid points, but which I considered relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. You started the conversation. I challenged the logic. You failed to answer, and bring up a red herring (untrue) of a personal attack.

When you say this:

Traditional(Real)Muzzleloader Hunters/Shooters

as you did, that seems to me like an arrogant elitist attitude in that the rest of us inliners are not "Real" hunters. It's not you, but the ideas and opinions which you express which can and should (and now are) being attacked.

Smokin_Gun
August 9, 2006, 04:14 PM
You really shouldn't assume so much about me...you see that's what makes it personal.

Yes, you definitely struck a nerve with your elitist attitude

Get over yourself, and like someone said, live and let live. I don't see how it's harming you in any way. But maybe I'm missing something; please explain if I am.

Youi are missing something... read my post again without growing an anyurism, I didn't knock down inlines or make dirogitoy statements about those who shoot them. I said "when" they become a problem not that they are a problem. And It is my choice not to like or dislike any darn thing I want to. So don't try and tell me what I think or talk down and try to preach Law & Life to me...Ok Bud?


I did say I'd drop it, to extend curtisy to the Forum... I consider the matter ended. Is there a problem with me dropping this discussion?

FirstFreedom
August 9, 2006, 04:16 PM
Yes, the problem is that you make the arrogant/elitist statement, and when you're called on it, you want to drop it. I would too, if I were you, if I couldn't defend it. But the appropriate response by you would be to either explain it, or delete it from your prior post, not try to sweep it under the rug. That would be the most courteous response to the forum, and its members - to back up your opinions. If you don't like the posted responses to your arrogance, there is a simple solution - don't do it!

Smokin_Gun
August 9, 2006, 04:36 PM
First, Please point out my elitist or arrogant statements...
Ask a direct question that I can answer you on instead of frothing off foam at me...LoL!

I'm not against change or improvement as long as it doesn't close muzzleloading Deer season in specific areas, or my 2nd Amendment Rights/rules declassifying "antique firearms" and having to register them. Pay FFL fees, ect.
I'm a Traditionalist, don't really wanna see an In-Line at my Rondevous. My choice and reasons are very valid and you did ask. People spend alot of time and money and the money ain't nothin' compared to being able to shoot at a Rondevous with others that appreciate our Heritage. Or Hunt like it was done 200 years ago. There's alot more to it than a gun.

In-lines got there place, I just hope the Traditional sidelocks don't get dragged into the in-line place when the rules get changed.
I won't own one they are too dang ugly...LoL!

P-990
August 9, 2006, 07:39 PM
Well, I'm going to chime back in, though for no particular reason.

First, I own a T/C Encore Katahdin .50-caliber, which has proven to be a great, accurate, reliable muzzleloader so far.

But, I might also say that sidehammers started me into the sport of muzzleloading, and I only come back into it with an inline because I view it as a replacement for my old deer rifle, not neccessarily as a primitive firearm in any way. In this state (New Hampshire) the inline gives me an extra week and a half of hunting season, which I feel is the big benefit. I'd shoot a T/C Hawken if it was required though.

I started by using pelletized powders and blah blah blah... Now I've switched to using loose Pyrodex powder, though I'm "stuck" with sabots in this particular rifle, which aside from the cost, I don't view as a huge issue. It's a jacketed .44/.45 caliber handgun bullet, which is quite suitable for the ranges and velocities involved.

However, in the future I plan on adding a nice sidehammer percussion rifle, a pretty one, as a range shooter and hunter if I should ever find myself someplace my Encore isn't considered a muzzleloader (Massa *cough cough cough* chussetts!). Otherwise, my Encore will be my hunting companion.

It also seems to me to be suited for places where shotguns are required and muzzleloaders are allowed also. It has far less recoil than any slug-gun I've ever shot and shoots better to boot!

Good luck and good shooting all.

Edited: I like to reload for my centerfires, but hate having to travel and tinker, with the time-loss factored in. Shooting loose powder in a front-stuffer suits me well because I can experiment on promising leads right on the spot! And there's much less "at-home" preparation required.

Wild Bill Bucks
August 10, 2006, 10:09 AM
P990,

I agree, I like deer hunting so much, I would hunt with a pocket knife, if they had a season for them.

If four hunters were armed with a Sidelock, an Inline, a 7mm Magnum, and a pocket knife, I don't feel that any one of them would have an advantage or disadvantage over the other one, unless they were all shooting at the same deer.:D To each his own, since what a man hunts WITH does not MAKE him a hunter. The ability to "Bring home the bacon", is what seperates the hunters from the vegetarians.

I think that's a reasonable outlook.

FirstFreedom
August 10, 2006, 11:04 AM
I'm sorry Smokin Gun - maybe I misunderstood you, and I over-reacted. Carry on. :)

Smokin_Gun
August 10, 2006, 12:44 PM
Not a problem at all FirstFreedom.
Forums are sometimes difficult to explain when it comes to posts and replies. Meanings can get lost in type very easily.
I'm glad we got to parle.

tinker2
August 10, 2006, 03:15 PM
I like to shoot, I like to shoot all guns. Some more then
others but I like to shoot. I also like to hunt.

I have my opinions, preferences and prejudices.
They are based on the fact that I have been in the gun
business all of my adult life, retired mostly now, and
my opinions, preferences and prejudices are mostly
based on the type of person that buys what type of gun.


Enjoy and be safe
Tinker2

MacGille
September 13, 2006, 07:55 PM
I've been a muzzleloader fan for 40 or so years now, I like traditional rifles. As far as I'm concerned people who use inlines are cheating. The primitive rifle season was originally for traditional hunters. If you use modern technology to circumvent the intent of the law you are cheating. Maybe it's legal, but that doesn't make it right. That said, I will not tell anyone else what to do. If inlines are for you, God bless you. If you (like me) prefer the traditional gear, then hooray for you. I have regressed to the flintlock persuasion. I made my rifle from scratch and my buckskins, my knife, and my tomahawk. An old cow horn for powder, extra flints, patching material,(unbleached muslin) patch knife, ball starter. Obviously all of this is much more than just hunting. It recalls a way of life that was filled with rugged men and quite a lot of danger. I enjoy shooting a great deal. I use modern rifles too and even have a .50 inline pistol. ( a Christmas present from my son). I don't hunt anymore because I Don't want to kill anything. I am not a vegetarian though. For archery I use a long bow and wooden arrows that I make myself. The use of primitive weapons helps me to keep in touch with the ancestors who fought for this land since 1746. So keep on shootin' America regardless of type of rifle. And always remember "Scots WHa Hae":)

Wayner
September 15, 2006, 01:15 AM
The state of Colorado banned inlines for awhile and raised a stink in the inline world that put a nasty taste in the mouth of the manufactures. They got involved and got the state to accept the inlines. Inlines were percieved in the beginning as not being true muzzleloaders that the muzzleloading seasons or primitive seasons were created for. You know primitive hunting seasons for primitive hunting rifles. Well the velocities and powder charges of inlines that were advertised by some manufacturer of inlines as being equal to or surpassing 7mm magnum performance caused the perception by state administrators that inlines weren't primitive in performance so they should be banned from the primitve seasons. Pa. still bans percussions and inlines. Well, if the performance of the inlines surpasses the balistics of rifles like the 30-30 and the 45/70, or the 44 mag lever action carbine that are not legal in some states even in regular deer season how can muzzleloader hunters justify the use of their rifles that definitly are not primitive when primitve is what the seasons were created for. The people that struggled to fight the political red tape to have the primitve seasons created for the primitve hunter should feel threatened by the performance of the inlines that just gets stronger and more powderful by leaps and bounds. There is the Savage inline that fires smokeless powder. There is a new inline on the market that can fire 250gr. of powder safely. When an inline muzzleloader can rival and surpass the ballistics of a 30-06(fire a heavier bullet faster) and be in the ballistic arena with a 458 Winchester magnum and fire spire point bullets with boattails I believe the primitve seasons can definitely be jeapordized or ended. Should the seasons be closed because the inlines aren't primitve enough? I don't believe so because a more efficient firearm means that a good hunter just has the means to be even more ethical about killing game cleanly. A muzzleloader is a muzzleloader is a muzleloader is a...... I'm a Traditionalist and like the Hawken rifle but.....I'll get an inline someday just because there are some really great shootin inlines on the market. The one that catches my fancy is the new one by Austin Halleck. The inline muzzleloader that looks just like an 1892 Winchester lever action rifle. hee hee That is one nice little gun. The Knight 52cal. rifle that fires the 50cal. bullets in the sabots is one honey of a rifle too with some good long range potential. Big heavy bullet going fast....man, I like that idea. I must be a hypocrit traditionalist to be getting sucked into all this inline rifle stuff. Well, the real Jerimiah Johnson whose real name was John Johnson loved the Hawken rifle too but.....history has it that him and some buddies bested some unaware Indian foes by using the then new "needle rifles" as they called them that could out distance the contemporary muzzleloader. The new to the world Trapdoor Springfield 45/70 cartridge rifles. The mountain men loved the things. They did all the things they wished their old muzzleloaders could have done. hee hee If a person believed as I do that these are the good old days that we are living right now than truely Traditional a couple hundred years from now will be people copying us and the use of inline muzzleloading hunting rifles and copying clothes like Cabelas Gortex jackets and boots and the funny old timely lookin parkas with rain proof hoods and removable inner linners.hee hee hee hee Am I saying that shooting inlines will be considered traditional someday? Yep. Could I dare say that shooting inline muzzleloading rifles may even be considered traditional even now? Well by the definition of the word they have been around long enough for the custom of using them to have been handed down from one generation to the next. I hate to admit it but....hunting with inline muzzleloading rifles seems to be quite a tradition by now. What is this world coming to? :o

Wild Bill Bucks
September 15, 2006, 09:12 AM
Regardless of the choice of weapon, pocket knife, arrows, rifles, pistols, muzzleloaders, inline, hammer type, or pitch fork, the success of the hunt, lies in the hands of the hunter. It makes no difference what you hunt with, if you are a bad hunter, you are just a bad hunter. The cost or make-up of the weapon, isn't going to change that. A good hunter, will recognize his skill limit, and will be successful with his preferred choice of weapon, more often than a bad hunter will, with no matter what he is carrying.